Schools that are truly P/F

[OrganLibrarian]

Does anyone know of any schools that are truly Pass/Fail either the first year or both years? To me, this means that the school doesn't rank their students, secretly or not. I feel as though I've heard that Michigan is one of these (I'm highly considering attending, and this would be such a draw if it were true).

Furthermore, if a school is "truly" P/F during the preclinical years, are we somehow "graded" during rotations? Are there tests at their conclusions?

Thanks guys!

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[golftrippy]

Does anyone know of any schools that are truly Pass/Fail either the first year or both years? To me, this means that the school doesn't rank their students, secretly or not. I feel as though I've heard that Michigan is one of these (I'm highly considering attending, and this would be such a draw if it were true).

Furthermore, if a school is "truly" P/F during the preclinical years, are we somehow "graded" during rotations? Are there tests at their conclusions?

Thanks guys!

Brown is P/F with no class rank. It does however grade students on a 1-10 scale on its 9 core competencies...the core competencies are all related to the "practice" of medicine...its a very cool system, and it helps them get incredible residency positions

 

[ahumdinger]

Pritzker is truly Pass/Fail. I believe Yale is the ultimate Pass/Fail, since they don't even have exams.

WashU is pass/fail during the first year, and then Honors/HighPass/pass/Fail. During clinical rotations, I think your grade depends primarily on attending evaluations, but there maybe a few tests here and there.

 

[tigress]

AECOM is pass/fail. I don't know if they secretly rank or not. I asked students at my interview and they seemed to think not, but I'm not sure.

 

[lazygunner]

NYU is purely pass/fail for the first two years

 

[Risa]

Harvard and Case

 

[exmike]

NYU is purely pass/fail for the first two years

but its ranked pass fail, not true pass fail.

 

[kaffy]

Columbia and WashU

 

[ND2005]

A few people I've talked to say that even the schools that are "truly" pass/fail have some ranking method, b/c most residency directors still want class ranks.

 

[DrLalich]

The University of Minnesota-Twin Cities is moving toward complete Pass/Fail (i.e. they are phasing out the grade of Honors for 90% and above). I am not exactly sure how the clinical portions are graded.

 

[earmuffs]

Northwestern is P/F for the 1st 2 years, completely unranked.

When residency application time rolls around, I'm pretty sure there's a new rule that all schools are required to rank you relative to your class in your MSPE (med student performance evaluation).

At NU (and probably all true P/F curriculums), for the 1st 2yrs they just write on your MSPE that you performed well in these 2yrs and passed all courses. No scores will ever appear, and your class rank by quartile will be determined entirely based on how you do in the 3rd year (which is graded honors/high pass/pass/fail).

I love pass-fail.

 

[OrganLibrarian]

Northwestern is P/F for the 1st 2 years, completely unranked.

When residency application time rolls around, I'm pretty sure there's a new rule that all schools are required to rank you relative to your class in your MSPE (med student performance evaluation).

At NU (and probably all true P/F curriculums), for the 1st 2yrs they just write on your MSPE that you performed well in these 2yrs and passed all courses. No scores will ever appear, and your class rank by quartile will be determined entirely based on how you do in the 3rd year (which is graded honors/high pass/pass/fail).

I love pass-fail.

Thanks for your detailed answer! I definitely will consider NU strongly (IF I get in, that is). Could other posters who know more details about their school's curriculum post that as well? I think that a lot of people are interested in the pass/fail topic (at least I am, and you know you want to please me ).

 

[lyn2006]

Yale's pass/fail - and the myth is that you don't have to take any exams. Midterms are optional - and if you do take them, you just print the answer sheet and grade your own exam. However, it turns out you do have to take finals, but they're anonymous. That's the only pass/fail school I know anything about...

 

[BaylorGuy]

Does anyone know of any schools that are truly Pass/Fail either the first year or both years? To me, this means that the school doesn't rank their students, secretly or not. I feel as though I've heard that Michigan is one of these (I'm highly considering attending, and this would be such a draw if it were true).

Furthermore, if a school is "truly" P/F during the preclinical years, are we somehow "graded" during rotations? Are there tests at their conclusions?

Thanks guys!

Either way, there is going to be a ranking system for class ranks...be it in preclinical or clinical. There has got to be a way to show that one student is better than others or vice versa.

 

[Rafa]

Stanford is, for all four years.

 

[gostudy]

Question: is a P/F school more desirable? Let's say you are never ranked against your peers in your class. Does this make a curriculum attractive? In this way, only board scores and letters determine your residency status. To me I want to be distinguished from my class and rewarded for my efforts to some extent.

 

[Rafa]

Question: is a P/F school more desirable? Let's say you are never ranked against your peers in your class. Does this make a curriculum attractive?

To me, it does. I'd rather spend the four years *learning* instead of worrying about grades and my position in various rat-races.

 

[deleted77919]

UConn: P/F first two years, no rank (3rd is P/F/H)

 

[lyn2006]

Question: is a P/F school more desirable? Let's say you are never ranked against your peers in your class. Does this make a curriculum attractive? In this way, only board scores and letters determine your residency status. To me want to be distinguished from my class and rewarded for my efforts to some extent.

Yale claims it makes a more cooperative, less competitive environment and they try to select people who would fit well in a pass/fail curriculum. So if you want to be in that kind of place - then yes, it's probably more desirable. Otherwise, maybe not.

 

[Bernito]

Question: is a P/F school more desirable? Let's say you are never ranked against your peers in your class. Does this make a curriculum attractive? In this way, only board scores and letters determine your residency status. To me want to be distinguished from my class and rewarded for my efforts to some extent.

At what point do you want to no longer be graded? In residency? After working 10 years? When you retire? I guess there is always that final grade.

 

[Rafa]

At what point do you want to no longer be graded? In residency? After working 10 years? When you retire? I guess there is always that final grade.

Bingo. After a certain point, you've got to start deriving satisfaction from getting the job done, and not from getting higher marks from your peers. As doctors, we're going to have to learn to value *cooperation* just as much as (if not infinitely more than) competition. The very phrase "ranked against" suggests that med school is yet another hurdle to jump, in which to excel, one must better his/her peers. That ain't for me. We need more good doctors, not just a few really good ones.

Cooperation >> Competition.

 

[QofQuimica]

Does anyone know of any schools that are truly Pass/Fail either the first year or both years? To me, this means that the school doesn't rank their students, secretly or not. I feel as though I've heard that Michigan is one of these (I'm highly considering attending, and this would be such a draw if it were true).

Furthermore, if a school is "truly" P/F during the preclinical years, are we somehow "graded" during rotations? Are there tests at their conclusions?

Thanks guys!

Cleveland Clinic is P/F all five years, no rank, no tests, no lectures.

 

[earmuffs]

Found the link I was referring to earlier...

The American Association of Medical Colleges created guidelines for your Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE) in order to create some semblance of standardization across medical school deans letter evaluations.

Part of this is requiring that schools rank you relative to your peers through some sort basic system, whether it be dividing students up into quartiles, quintiles, or whatever type of system the school chooses. They're supposed to be able to graphically demonstrate exactly how many students fall into each division within the class (specifically, see Appendix D of the linked pdf. In a P/F curriculum the preclinical years will simply show the 2 grades as P & F and where you stand in that).

They are not allowed to leave you completely unranked relative to your peers. How they determine where you fit is completely school-dependent. Some include your 1st 2yrs. Some (like mine) do it solely on 3rd year core clerkships, and what you did before doesn't matter. Either way, it will say specifically in your MSPE how this is done so that residency program directors know what this ranking is based upon.

I'm not sure how the programs without exams or any form of ranks do it, but they do have to judge you somehow. Schools that ignore these guidelines are few and far between, and are more and more frequently complying with the AAMC requirements for the standardized MSPE.

AAMC MSPE Guidelines

I still love pass-fail.

 

[ashabee4]

I believe University of Rochester is also pass/fail. They, however, recognize the top 5 or 10% in each course by sending them a certificate or something. It is definitely not seen by anyone else though.

 

[happydays]

Ohio state is p/f, but you get honors for being in the top 10%.


UMich says they're truely p/f. I'll have to make sure of this.

 

[exmike]

If you can get honors, or if there is some recognition of achievement, then its not true pass fail. True pass fail means everyone to passes is on a level playing field entering the third year (if you are graded third year)

 

[gcomplex7]

I believe every school, whether pass/ fail or not, evaluates your clinical years. This, so i heard, is a very important aspect in terms of residency placement.
So ultimately your performance will be ranked but not in comparism to anyone else.

Pass/fail still rocks though.

 

[nibrocli]

here's the AAMC directory of grading intervals by school:

http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm

 

[Carpool tun syn]

It is so stressful to attend a school with letter grades. I hated the cutthroat competition during my premed years, but unfortunately I got into a school with letter grade system. It really is no fun.

If you have a choice, DEFINITELY go to a school with P/F.

 

[UCLAstudent]

UCLA is P/F.

 

[nosugrefneb]

If you have a choice, DEFINITELY go to a school with P/F.

I STRONGLY agree with this. When I was applying to schools, I didn't really consider whether a school was P/F in my decision to apply. All I can say is that I'm lucky I ended up at a P/F school. It is amazing, and I would say that if you consider nothing else, go to a P/F school. It makes all the difference in the world, and med school is a lot more enjoyable because of it.

I have a few friends at graded (both letter grades and HH/H/P/F) schools who are having a hard time coming to terms with things like people hiding notes from each other, giving misinformation, ripping pages out of library books so no one else can have access to them, etc. I think it goes without saying that it would be tough to learn in an environment like that!

(By the way, I'd like to second that Pritzker is unranked P/F for the first two years and goes to H/P/F (or something along those lines) for the clinical years.)

 

[infiniti]

UCSF is most definitely P/F for the first 2 years. It seems as though there is a correlation between atmosphere and grading system. The most relaxed students on my interview trail tend to be in schools with P/F.

 

[tigress]

I think P/F is an awesome system, but H/P/F isn't too bad either. And even Drexel's version of H/HP/P/F isn't bad, because high pass is just 86/87-90 and honors is 90+, generally, so a pass means you got anywhere from 70-87, just about. In a way I think it's nice to have that honors to strive for, and the high pass if you just miss the honors. But again, I can see the benefit of just P/F. My husband is at Drexel, with H/HP/P/F, and my best friend is at AECOM, with P/F. I think my husband needs the motivation of having the honors to strive for, whereas my friend is going to study her butt off no matter what, so it's much less stressful for her to not have to worry (too much ) about her grade. So perhaps each system is good for different types of people.

Now the only question is which type of people I am

 

[dulop]

UCSF is most definitely P/F for the first 2 years. It seems as though there is a correlation between atmosphere and grading system. The most relaxed students on my interview trail tend to be in schools with P/F.

anyone know what Dartmouth's grading system is the first 2 years?

 

[sparkle_]

Similar to some of the other UCs, UC Davis is strictly P/F and unranked for the first two years.