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Hey man I can kind of respect that. You hold your position vehemently and eloquently. My question is so what does that make those 74 million people that don't agree with you? You can't just reduce 47% of the electorate to ignorant racists. You can't possibly believe that can you?
Ignorant yes.

I honestly cannot understand how anybody who has a modicum of insight can look at what is going on right now and say that it is reasonable or fair. Honestly anyone who voted for Trump and is seeing what's happening now who doesn't resent that vote is absolutely ignorant.

Unlike other lame duck sessions in the recent past there is some serious **** going on right now and instead of dealing with that Trump is trying to unravel democracy and whip the right in to a frenzy--and for some undecipherable reason the right is largely embracing this insanity.
 
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Hey- I’m basically a republican and voted for Biden this time specifically because of the stuff vector2 calls out. I think a fair number of moderates did so as well- enough to turn the election.
I don't know if this claim is accurate when you consider support grew for trump by over 10million votes (2016 compared to 2020)
 

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Isn't that essentially saying 1/2 of all white men are racist then? In all serious what am I missing? Is there data that support these numbers?
I think y’all White men are scared. Been scared of losing power, status and money. Been scared that the left is trying to make an even playing field for the rest of us brown, black and women folk and that is taking away some of those God given American rights and entitlements that your ancestors took from the Indians and claimed as theirs then passed on to their future generations. Trump stokes and puts fire under that fear and wasn’t scared to put it out in the open for everyone to see.
Scared that now after the Obama presidency that black and brown folk from the US and abroad are coming for what has been given to y’all so easily simply because you won the uterus lottery. All the while the rest of us had to claw and work our way up through sheer hard work, determination and tears, enduring many doors shut in our faces, while having to prove that we are just as worthy because nothing was simply handed to us due to our wrong skin color and/or sex.
That fear of the average Joe living the American dream has been chipped away at for decades by “others” and Trump just came in at the perfect time with all his racist and mysogynistic rhetoric and many of y’all just slurped it all up and saw him as the savior that is going to save your “status” in America.

If I was a White man born and raised in this country, and my leverage was being taken away, hell who knows, I may have voted for him too. I don’t know.

Some are straight up racists for sure. Others don’t necessarily exhibit overt racism or even covert racism. But for sure, xenophobia and fear of the “others” taking what is rightfully yours.

Everything else is just pure old rationalization IMO.
 
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Hey man I can kind of respect that. You hold your position vehemently and eloquently. My question is so what does that make those 74 million people that don't agree with you? You can't just reduce 47% of the electorate to ignorant racists. You can't possibly believe that can you?

The R-word is a complex thing to assign to people. It's why I always mention this extremely revealing interview with Lee Atwater from 1981 about how his southern strategy abstracted racism and codified it in increasingly less overt ways.

In 2020, while there are still a surprising number of hood-wearers and neonazis around, these make up a very small percentage of the 74 million. The more concerning group are the much larger percentage of the 74 million who bought in very strongly to the 'Mexico is sending drug dealers, criminals, and rapists' rhetoric, to the 'caravans are a dirty, diseased invading horde' rhetoric, to the 'a judge of Mexican heritage can't do his job because he's of Mexican heritage' rhetoric, to the 'African countries are shtholes' rhetoric, to the family separation policy, to the ban on many Muslim-majority countries, to the defense of keeping bases named after Confederate generals, etc. You may disagree, but these people are racist. They're not racist in a way that would necessarily prevent them from having a cordial conversation with say a black or Hispanic co-worker, but make no mistake- putting the red hat on and strongly buying into that sort of rhetoric or those actions is racist.

The last group are those - which probably includes a fair number of highly-educated people including some on this forum - who don't really care one lick for any of the racist rhetoric or racist actions but who turn a blind eye to it in service of political expediency. They make excuses for it the same way people made excuses for trump's "grab them by the p ussy" tape by saying it was just locker room talk. They come up with a constant stream of euphemisms and downplaying because it really hurts their psyche to have to associate themselves with something racist when they, in fact, do not believe themselves to be racist. But psychological assuaging does not negate reality.

I personally can shout it from the hilltops that trump is a racist, but mostly what I get in return is that I'm exaggerating or that I'm liberally biased or whatevs. Joe Scarborough, on the other hand, was born in Georgia, went to school in Alabama, and represented deep-red northern Florida in Congress. He had a 95% lifetime rating from the American Conservative Union during his tenure in which he voted to severely cut government, cut Medicare, ban abortion, freeze the minimum wage, and impeach Bill Clinton. When Joe Scarborough thinks trump's racism will bring down the party, or when he says that trump is the 'most racist president in modern American history', what does someone like you make of that? Same question goes when you hear of the other dozens of prominent conservatives who have echoed Scarborough's sentiment.
 
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The R-word is a complex thing to assign to people. It's why I always mention this extremely revealing interview with Lee Atwater from 1981 about how his southern strategy abstracted racism and codified it in increasingly less overt ways.

In 2020, while there are still a surprising number of hood-wearers and neonazis around, these make up a very small percentage of the 74 million. The more concerning group are the much larger percentage of the 74 million who bought in very strongly to the 'Mexico is sending drug dealers, criminals, and rapists' rhetoric, to the 'caravans are a dirty, diseased invading horde' rhetoric, to the 'a judge of Mexican heritage can't do his job because he's of Mexican heritage' rhetoric, to the 'African countries are shtholes' rhetoric, to the family separation policy, to the ban on many Muslim-majority countries to the defense of keeping bases named after Confederate generals, etc. You may disagree, but these people are racist. They're not racist in a way that would necessarily prevent them from having a cordial conversation with say a black or Hispanic co-worker, but make no mistake- putting the red hat on and strongly buying into that sort of rhetoric or those actions is racist.

The last group are those - which probably includes a fair number of highly-educated people including some on this forum - who don't really care one lick for any of the racist rhetoric or racist actions but who turn a blind eye to it in service of political expediency. They make excuses for it the same way people made excuses for trump's "grab them by the p ussy" tape by saying it was just locker room talk. They come up with a constant stream of euphemisms and downplaying because it really hurts their psyche to have to associate themselves with something racist when they, in fact, do not believe themselves to be racist. But psychological assuaging does not negate reality.

I personally can shout it from the hilltops that trump is a racist, but mostly what I get in return is that I'm exaggerating or that I'm liberally biased or whatevs. Joe Scarborough, on the other hand, was born in Georgia, went to school in Alabama, and represented deep-red northern Florida in Congress. He had a 95% lifetime rating from the American Conservative Union during his tenure in which he voted to severely cut government, cut Medicare, ban abortion, freeze the minimum wage, and impeach Bill Clinton. When Joe Scarborough thinks trump's racism will bring down the party, or when he says that trump is the 'most racist president in modern American history', what does someone like you make of that? Same question goes for the other dozens of prominent conservatives who have echoed Scarborough's sentiment.
So. Yes?
 

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------------
"You break it, you own it," the conservative host said on "S.E. Cupp Unfiltered." "The Republican Party is now fully and totally responsible for these racist, divisive, un-American ideas. They are yours as much as any policy is. In fact, it is the policy. Republicans can pretend that this is just rhetoric, but when Central American children are put in cages at the border as policy and when the administration pushes to cut refugee admissions to zero as policy and when the president implemented a Muslim ban as policy, it’s not just words. It’s the agenda."

Cupp, who has repeatedly criticized the president, went on to call out GOP lawmakers who have called for Trump to just "focus on policy" when he faces scrutiny for his rhetoric.

"I hear this all the time from Republican lawmakers. 'Well, I wish he'd focus on policy. Let's focus on policy. I don’t like what the president said, but I'm focused on policy.' What a load of crap," Cupp argued, saying the idea that congressmen can "compartmentalize Trump into categories is the lie of the century."

"Trump is not a buffet where you can take what you like and leave what you don't," she added.
------------


And who is S.E. Cupp? "She is a former panelist on the CNN political debate show Crossfire, author of Losing Our Religion: The Liberal Media's Attack on Christianity and co-author of Why You're Wrong About the Right. She was a panelist on Real News on TheBlaze, a co-host of the MSNBC talk show The Cycle, and a frequent guest host on the Fox News late night talk show Red Eye w/ Greg Gutfeld. She is a frequent guest panelist on Real Time with Bill Maher."
 
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The more concerning group are the much larger percentage of the 74 million who bought in very strongly to the 'Mexico is sending drug dealers, criminals, and rapists' rhetoric, to the 'caravans are a dirty, diseased invading horde' rhetoric, to the 'a judge of Mexican heritage can't do his job because he's of Mexican heritage' rhetoric, to the 'African countries are shtholes' rhetoric, to the family separation policy, to the ban on many Muslim-majority countries, to the defense of keeping bases named after Confederate generals, etc. You may disagree, but these people are racist. They're not racist in a way that would necessarily prevent them from having a cordial conversation with say a black or Hispanic co-worker, but make no mistake- putting the red hat on and strongly buying into that sort of rhetoric or those actions is racist.

The last group are those - which probably includes a fair number of highly-educated people including some on this forum - who don't really care one lick for any of the racist rhetoric or racist actions but who turn a blind eye to it in service of political expediency. They make excuses for it the same way people made excuses for trump's "grab them by the p ussy" tape by saying it was just locker room talk. They come up with a constant stream of euphemisms and downplaying because it really hurts their psyche to have to associate themselves with something racist when they, in fact, do not believe themselves to be racist. But psychological assuaging does not negate reality.

I personally can shout it from the hilltops that trump is a racist, but mostly what I get in return is that I'm exaggerating or that I'm liberally biased or whatevs. Joe Scarborough, on the other hand, was born in Georgia, went to school in Alabama, and represented deep-red northern Florida in Congress. He had a 95% lifetime rating from the American Conservative Union during his tenure in which he voted to severely cut government, cut Medicare, ban abortion, freeze the minimum wage, and impeach Bill Clinton. When Joe Scarborough thinks trump's racism will bring down the party, or when he says that trump is the 'most racist president in modern American history', what does someone like you make of that? Same question goes when you hear of the other dozens of prominent conservatives who have echoed Scarborough's sentiment.

There are obviously people who fall in this category you are describing, but it’s a matter of opinion about how many. You can paint it that way but It’s just as easy to paint in this way:

Educated people voting Trump who:

1. Don’t think Mexicans “are criminals and rapists” but do think illegal immigration must be strictly fought against while we expand incentives for legal immigration of the “best and brightest”.

2. Aren’t scared of “white people losing their power” but rather want to enforce the law as it’s meant - equality and non-discrimination, fix any areas that are shown to be truly biased (such as law enforcement and criminal justice) rather than implement codified “positive racism” with policies like AA and force-feeding of cancel culture.

3. Are sick of ever expanding regulation and budgets, want to see the government actually trim some fat from a bloated/abused program before further expanding them.

4. Are sick of middle-class Americans in industrial jobs being told to just “retrain” while replacing them with immigrants (some illegal) and overseas factories (in the name of globalism)- thus the “America first” slogan resonating.

Now don’t get me wrong- Trump didn’t do many elements of #1, #2, #3 or #4 correctly, and bumbled through a lot of these things. Which is why he lost more than his outrageous statements. However, he did make some of the right gambits on these (in 180 degree turns from dems).

Wasn’t enough for me — but I can see why some people overlooked his flaws for these reasons.
 

vector2

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There are obviously people who fall in this category you are describing, but it’s a matter of opinion about how many. You can paint it that way but It’s just as easy to paint in this way:

Educated people voting Trump who:

1. Don’t think Mexicans “are criminals and rapists” but do think illegal immigration must be strictly fought against while we expand incentives for legal immigration of the “best and brightest”.

2. Aren’t scared of “white people losing their power” but rather want to enforce the law as it’s meant - equality and non-discrimination, fix any areas that are shown to be truly biased (such as law enforcement and criminal justice) rather than implement codified “positive racism” with policies like AA and force-feeding of cancel culture.

3. Are sick of ever expanding regulation and budgets, want to see the government actually trim some fat from a bloated/abused program before further expanding them.

4. Are sick of middle-class Americans in industrial jobs being told to just “retrain” while replacing them with immigrants (some illegal) and overseas factories (in the name of globalism)- thus the “America first” slogan resonating.

Now don’t get me wrong- Trump didn’t do many elements of #1, #2, #3 or #4 correctly, and bumbled through a lot of these things. Which is why he lost more than his outrageous statements. However, he did make some of the right gambits on these (in 180 degree turns from dems).

Wasn’t enough for me — but I can see why some people overlooked his flaws for these reasons.

Educated conservatives can be for those things in 1-4- that is their choice. My point is Ted Cruz would've gotten them to the same place. But instead of making a choice like that, they decided to purposefully and unconscionably ignore, euphemize, and sometimes even encourage trump's obvious, overt racism and divisiveness in order to serve their political interests.
 

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There are obviously people who fall in this category you are describing, but it’s a matter of opinion about how many. You can paint it that way but It’s just as easy to paint in this way:

Educated people voting Trump who:

1. Don’t think Mexicans “are criminals and rapists” but do think illegal immigration must be strictly fought against while we expand incentives for legal immigration of the “best and brightest”.

2. Aren’t scared of “white people losing their power” but rather want to enforce the law as it’s meant - equality and non-discrimination, fix any areas that are shown to be truly biased (such as law enforcement and criminal justice) rather than implement codified “positive racism” with policies like AA and force-feeding of cancel culture.

3. Are sick of ever expanding regulation and budgets, want to see the government actually trim some fat from a bloated/abused program before further expanding them.

4. Are sick of middle-class Americans in industrial jobs being told to just “retrain” while replacing them with immigrants (some illegal) and overseas factories (in the name of globalism)- thus the “America first” slogan resonating.

Now don’t get me wrong- Trump didn’t do many elements of #1, #2, #3 or #4 correctly, and bumbled through a lot of these things. Which is why he lost more than his outrageous statements. However, he did make some of the right gambits on these (in 180 degree turns from dems).

Wasn’t enough for me — but I can see why some people overlooked his flaws for these reasons.

This is a good post and honestly my guess is most people on both sides of the aisle could find agreement on 1-4. 4 is funny. I bet everyone posting in this thread owns stock in publicly traded companies and will depend on those stocks increasing in value as part of their retirement. These companies aren’t increasing the bottom line by paying ever increasing wages to American workers while someone overseas will do the work for 1/4, or less, the pay. No one is innocent in this game. At least I’ll admit it. But I do believe in investing in American companies and paying our workers good, fair wages with good benefits (healthcare, retirement) even when it doesn’t financially suit me. I want our government to support the Teslas and other new green energy companies as it’s clearly the future. That’s why I voted Biden and will very likely vote Democrat until the balance of power shifts more toward American worker over American corporations who make everything overseas.

Republicans who cheer this ‘America First’ crap, as if it really means anything, have historically sided with corporations over workers. One could argue it’s why we have an economy teetering on failure while the stock market is doing just fine.

When I look at Trumps rallies and the people there cheering ‘America First’, they’d vote Democrat if they really truly cared about American workers being treated fairly. But they can’t see through the veil, and instead ‘America First’ gets distorted into absurd support for isolationist immigration policy. ‘Build the Wall!’ Give me a break....
 
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nimbus

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I don't know if this claim is accurate when you consider support grew for trump by over 10million votes (2016 compared to 2020)

And uncle Joe Biden got almost 75 million votes. It wasn’t because he campaigned hard or because he is a charismatic and inspiring figure. He mostly stayed in his basement, right? Many of those votes were because people thought the US could not suffer through 4 more years of Trump.
 
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This is what Powell said

View attachment 323595


She has a JD from UNC Chapel Hill and was an Assistant United States Attorney for 10 years.
"Some guy said some things about an election held in a different country under different circumstances under the direction of a dead man several years ago. This is the best evidence we have."
 
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I would say you’re correct. A lot of voters “hedged their bet” by voting Biden and then voting Republican down ballot
Only the looniest of my Republican family members voted Trump but they all stuck with red downballot. Basically everyone that served in the military or that has a degree voted Biden, and the Qanon rednecks and multilevel marketing moms (if you fall for one scam or conspiracy you'll fall for them all) voted Trump.
 

Mad Jack

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TLDR:

Minimal # of overt. Moderate # of covert. And a decent # just turning a blind eye and enabling trump's racism even if they are not themselves racist.
Turning a blind eye to racism in the name of political convenience is a more calculated sort of awful than racism itself. It basically says, "I don't dislike you, your rights and wellbeing and the effects of my choices upon you simply don't matter to me."
 

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Turning a blind eye to racism in the name of political convenience is a more calculated sort of awful than racism itself. It basically says, "I don't dislike you, your rights and wellbeing and the effects of my choices upon you simply don't matter to me."

Indeed, it's worse in many ways. Overt racists and red hats are usually pretty ignorant but should know better. Trump’s educated base and his enablers in the higher echelons of power do know better...
 
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Indeed, it's worse in many ways. Overt racists and red hats are usually pretty ignorant but should know better. Trump’s educated base and his enablers in the higher echelons of power do know better...
so, lets recap here.

Again, I'm no psychiatrist, but in your pathologic worldview you split the Trump voter as either the R word or a cynic. At least that was your initial position. But when pressed, after sifting through your overly verbose diatribe, it reduces to the fact that they are really either the R word, or WORSE.

There is seriously some flawed logic here:
Trump is a racist -> You voted for Trump
therefore You are a racist.. or worse

If you are going to slander a member on this forum, as well as 47% of the electorate, the onus is on you to provide a mountain of evidence to that fact.

What I really think is happening here is that you are using a defense mechanism because the outcome of the elections weren't as convincing as you would have liked. The path of least resistance is to just say there must be something inherently wrong with that 47%. its a false conclusion. And I'll say it again, if you don't figure it out you should be really worried come 2022 and 2024.

And once more for the record, Trump has no redeeming qualities. There would could have been a thousand better choices (RUBIO!), doubtful any of them would have beat Hillary. He has used bigoted and xenophobic language. I'll stop short of the R word because they aren't equal, but he is ignorant. Ya, he is probably more narcissistic than most presidents. Never once haveI supported his continued efforts to maintain his grasp on the throne. There is no path forward. I standby the fact that there will be a peaceful transition of power. Everything else is political posturing and I wouldn't expect that to change much until after the dust settles in Georgia. But sorry, I'm going to stop short of groveling on my knees to make you feel better bud. Nor will I stand by in silence as you continue to push your narrative of the ignorant and racist republicans.
 
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Only the looniest of my Republican family members voted Trump but they all stuck with red downballot. Basically everyone that served in the military or that has a degree voted Biden, and the Qanon rednecks and multilevel marketing moms (if you fall for one scam or conspiracy you'll fall for them all) voted Trump.
Yeah the whole cognitive dissonance about being "america first!!!!" and then how trump treats the military also makes no sense. Mad that people kneel for the national anthem because it disrespects our troops, but then support a guy who dodged the draft, said pow mccain was essentially a loser, knew about bounties from russia on our soldiers and made fun of a military family whose son was killed in iraq and was awarded a bronze and purple heart. Just to name a few of the things he's done to disparage the military.
 
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If you are going to slander a member on this forum, as well as 47% of the electorate, the onus is on you to provide a mountain of evidence to that fact.
Obviously there's going to be no way to truly get evidence.
However, as I typed previously there's a difference between having differing beliefs about taxes and supporting and being proud of trump's discriminatory and hateful views.

If you look at all the rallies that he had and would spout his racist, sexist, xenophobic, transphobic, etc language, there would be hundreds to thousands of people there loudly yelling and cheering when he made those statements. He had the biggest and best rallies!!!!!!

Now to me, the last time I checked if you're showing up and loudly yelling and cheering at specific statements, that means you support them, which means you have the same beliefs.

So I think that's about as close to the evidence as we can get to show that people believe his discriminatory thougths and policies. It's not like everyone was at home sitting on the couch going, well I guess I have to vote for this guy....no they were out in the streets yelling and cheering and marching and encouraging. That's pretty good evidence and about as close as I think we'll get to knowing that people believe the things that he was saying.
*also I don't follow him on twitter, but I believe a lot of his inflammatory and discriminatory tweets also get a lot of likes and retweets. Another thing for evidence to show that people agree with and think like him.
 

dipriMAN

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so, lets recap here.

Again, I'm no psychiatrist, but in your pathologic worldview you split the Trump voter as either the R word or a cynic. At least that was your initial position. But when pressed, after sifting through your overly verbose diatribe, it reduces to the fact that they are really either the R word, or WORSE.

There is seriously some flawed logic here:
Trump is a racist -> You voted for Trump
therefore You are a racist.. or worse

If you are going to slander a member on this forum, as well as 47% of the electorate, the onus is on you to provide a mountain of evidence to that fact.

What I really think is happening here is that you are using a defense mechanism because the outcome of the elections weren't as convincing as you would have liked. The path of least resistance is to just say there must be something inherently wrong with that 47%. its a false conclusion. And I'll say it again, if you don't figure it out you should be really worried come 2022 and 2024.

And once more for the record, Trump has no redeeming qualities. There would could have been a thousand better choices (RUBIO!), doubtful any of them would have beat Hillary. He has used bigoted and xenophobic language. I'll stop short of the R word because they aren't equal, but he is ignorant. Ya, he is probably more narcissistic than most presidents. Never once haveI supported his continued efforts to maintain his grasp on the throne. There is no path forward. I standby the fact that there will be a peaceful transition of power. Everything else is political posturing and I wouldn't expect that to change much until after the dust settles in Georgia. But sorry, I'm going to stop short of groveling on my knees to make you feel better bud. Nor will I stand by in silence as you continue to push your narrative of the ignorant and racist republicans.
The argument is actually more cogent than you make it out to be.

1. Trump uses racism language (undeniable fact)
2. So trump is either racist himself, or is promoting racist language to gain followers.
3. if you vote for someone, you either believe in the person or believe in their policies.
4. If you voted for trump you either are racist and like him as a person, or you recognize what he is doing and look past it because you think other policies policies are more important than squashing racist rheteroic.
 

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Indeed, it's worse in many ways. Overt racists and red hats are usually pretty ignorant but should know better. Trump’s educated base and his enablers in the higher echelons of power do know better...

I have many highly educated republican close friends who voted for Trump. Universally their thinking is “I wish Trump didn’t say racist and stupid things. He’s a terrible human being. But I agree with 80% of his policies and only 10% of Biden’s. I’m going to vote with what people do rather than what they say.”

Some of them have changed their minds since the election fraud tantrum. Others do think the policy stuff that sounds the worst was twisted and overhyped in the media when you actually read the details/context (children in cages, muslim ban, etc).

But again, I think all these people would have preferred a Kasich or Romney 100%. It’s just that the primary process is so messed up that this choice was made 100% by the maga hat crowd, which I still believe is a small but vocal minority in the party (a little like the socialist/squad/AOC part of the dems who have not gotten control of their party’s primary yet - but you are kidding yourself if you think they couldn’t in the future).
 
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The checks and balances of the branches of government makes the nation move en masse based on the majority of “votes.” Even when the machines counting votes were made in China. ;)
Administrations continue or repeal the previous administration’s orders. Progression for better and worse are slow to occur.
Day to day, not much changes for the population.
I thought both presidential candidates sucked this year.
 
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I have many highly educated republican close friends who voted for Trump. Universally their thinking is “I wish Trump didn’t say racist and stupid things. He’s a terrible human being. But I agree with 80% of his policies and only 10% of Biden’s. I’m going to vote with what people do rather than what they say.”

Some of them have changed their minds since the election fraud tantrum. Others do think the policy stuff that sounds the worst was twisted and overhyped in the media when you actually read the details/context (children in cages, muslim ban, etc).

But again, I think all these people would have preferred a Kasich or Romney 100%. It’s just that the primary process is so messed up that this choice was made 100% by the maga hat crowd, which I still believe is a small but vocal minority in the party (a little like the socialist/squad/AOC part of the dems who have not gotten control of their party’s primary yet - but you are kidding yourself if you think they couldn’t in the future).
For the sake of argument, I disagree with that speculation. My argument being, that far-left "leaning" candidates didn't do well as well as they thought in they would in the first 3 primaries, with moderates winning Iowa, competing strong in NH, and winning SC. I think the who "the left is taking over the democratic party" is just a way to cause division among Democrats. The party is mostly moderate because it's strongest base is a pretty moderate voting block. I think candidates that get label as left wing, typically aren't. People like AOC/The Squad can do what they do because they know it wins their district but they could never be successful on a State/National level with those politics. Some of my Democrat colleagues on here may disagree with that, but I think it's true.
 
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For the sake of argument, I disagree with that speculation. My argument being, that far-left "leaning" candidates didn't do well as well as they thought in they would in the first 3 primaries, with moderates winning Iowa, competing strong in NH, and winning SC. I think the who "the left is taking over the democratic party" is just a way to cause division among Democrats. The party is mostly moderate because it's strongest base is a pretty moderate voting block. I think candidates that get label as left wing, typically aren't. People like AOC/The Squad can do what they do because they know it wins their district but they could never be successful on a State/National level with those politics. Some of my Democrat colleagues on here may disagree with that, but I think it's true.

I suppose. I don’t think it was a forgone conclusion though that Bernie was going to lose the primary in either 2016 or 2020 though. He had quite a lot of support and a strong showing.

To me it was just a flip of the coin that republicans went “off the deep end” to Trump, whereas dems didn’t for Bernie in one of those cycles. Things did pan out that way though- thus my vote.
 

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I suppose. I don’t think it was a forgone conclusion though that Bernie was going to lose the primary in either 2016 or 2020 though. He had quite a lot of support and a strong showing.

To me it was just a flip of the coin that republicans went “off the deep end” to Trump, whereas dems didn’t for Bernie in one of those cycles. Things did pan out that way though- thus my vote.
Dems always have to be mindful of their base, which are black folks, and more specifically black women. They’ll never win without them, and to be honest, it made it interesting why Kamala didn’t do better than she did in the primaries but it just shows that black voters are calculated and not monolithic voting block. I’d be shocked if there were ever a successful far-left candidate because most black voters aren’t far left which combined with many moderate Democrats in general, we’ll keep running mostly moderate candidates. If someone like Klobuchar gets her candidacy together and gets more appeal with black voters, she could be the first female President, unless someone like Nikki Haley can really find a way to reach out to black voters.
 
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I have many highly educated republican close friends who voted for Trump. Universally their thinking is “I wish Trump didn’t say racist and stupid things. He’s a terrible human being. But I agree with 80% of his policies and only 10% of Biden’s. I’m going to vote with what people do rather than what they say.”

Some of them have changed their minds since the election fraud tantrum. Others do think the policy stuff that sounds the worst was twisted and overhyped in the media when you actually read the details/context (children in cages, muslim ban, etc).

But again, I think all these people would have preferred a Kasich or Romney 100%. It’s just that the primary process is so messed up that this choice was made 100% by the maga hat crowd, which I still believe is a small but vocal minority in the party (a little like the socialist/squad/AOC part of the dems who have not gotten control of their party’s primary yet - but you are kidding yourself if you think they couldn’t in the future).
I agree the primary process in general sucks, but if you look at the numbers trump clearly won the popular vote and the number of delegates. It was a decisive win. So to act like most people don't agree with what he says seems false. I think people are saying that so they can feel better about themselves and about this country. The maga hat crowd is this country.

Again if people didn't believe what he was saying and his ideals then they wouldn't be cheering at his rallies.

Here are the results of the 2016 republican primary:
 
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25 mill voters in the repub primary in 2016, 14 mill for Trump. While that sounds impressive if you compare it to the general elections in 2016, 2020 that means only about 15-20% of eventual voters who went republican actually thought Trump was the best choice.

Much better would be if everyone could vote in both primaries- allowing us to nominate less fringe, more moderate politicians. In that world both Trump and Bernie would behave absolutely zero chance.
 
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25 mill voters in the repub primary in 2016, 14 mill for Trump. While that sounds impressive if you compare it to the general elections in 2016, 2020 that means only about 15-20% of eventual voters who went republican actually thought Trump was the best choice.

Much better would be if everyone could vote in both primaries- allowing us to nominate less fringe, more moderate politicians. In that world both Trump and Bernie would behave absolutely zero chance.
I'm not sure your point. It seems as though you're trying to make a point that we don't live in "maga country."
Primary voting turnout is typically less than main elections all the time.
The fact still stands that people voted for trump over everyone else in a clear and decisive way.
And then 70+ million people voted again for him again this year. Not only that they go to his rallies, yelling in agreement with him, like his tweets and march in the streets for him. So that goes to show that many (most?) of the people that vote for him agree with what he says. If they didn't they wouldn't be attending his rallies and would've voted for someone else in the primaries back in 2016 or would've stayed home and not voted for him in 2016 and 2020 elections.
Republicans made their bed and now are laying in it, why the spin to act like his voters aren't "maga country" who disagree with what he says?
 

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so, lets recap here.

Again, I'm no psychiatrist, but in your pathologic worldview you split the Trump voter as either the R word or a cynic. At least that was your initial position. But when pressed, after sifting through your overly verbose diatribe, it reduces to the fact that they are really either the R word, or WORSE.

There is seriously some flawed logic here:
Trump is a racist -> You voted for Trump
therefore You are a racist.. or worse

If you are going to slander a member on this forum, as well as 47% of the electorate, the onus is on you to provide a mountain of evidence to that fact.

What I really think is happening here is that you are using a defense mechanism because the outcome of the elections weren't as convincing as you would have liked. The path of least resistance is to just say there must be something inherently wrong with that 47%. its a false conclusion. And I'll say it again, if you don't figure it out you should be really worried come 2022 and 2024.

And once more for the record, Trump has no redeeming qualities. There would could have been a thousand better choices (RUBIO!), doubtful any of them would have beat Hillary. He has used bigoted and xenophobic language. I'll stop short of the R word because they aren't equal, but he is ignorant. Ya, he is probably more narcissistic than most presidents. Never once haveI supported his continued efforts to maintain his grasp on the throne. There is no path forward. I standby the fact that there will be a peaceful transition of power. Everything else is political posturing and I wouldn't expect that to change much until after the dust settles in Georgia. But sorry, I'm going to stop short of groveling on my knees to make you feel better bud. Nor will I stand by in silence as you continue to push your narrative of the ignorant and racist republicans.

I laid it out pretty extensively and your response before was a trite "So, yes?" without ONCE AGAIN addressing any specific points. Although I do recall you threw in a "well I'm sure I could put in context or say why the 15 obviously racist trump statements weren't actually racist," but you didn't. Because you can't.

And very simply, the trump voter does boil down to 1. Actively supports trump's racist rhetoric or policies or 2. Actively ignores or euphemizes trump's racist rhetoric and policies in service of something else, even though they know better. Number 2 is worse in some ways by nature of its cynicism and the way moral decision making works. As an example, @BLADEMDA in his own words said that he believes trump is a criminal and will likely be prosecuted once he leaves office....and he voted for him anyway. This is a different (and in some ways worse) moral choice than say Matty who genuinely believes in his heart of hearts that trump is squeaky clean and the second coming of mother Theresa.

The mountain of evidence of trumps racism already exists and it's called these last four years (and actually 40 yrs). You're welcome to bury your head in the sand because it deeply pains you to think that you're supporting a racist, but you are. And as I mentioned before (but of course you didnt respond to) an army of conservatives and Republicans have said the same thing.

"As he stumbled away, one couldn’t help but be reminded of Trump’s racist 2016 attacks aimed at Judge Gonzalo P. Curiel. The then-candidate said he couldn’t trust Curiel because he was “Mexican,” but Curiel is an Indiana native; his parents immigrated there from Mexico before he was born. Republican politicians responded strongly to the Curiel attacks. Maine Sen. Susan Collins said they did not “represent our American values”; Nebraska Sen. Ben Sasse said Trump’s comments were “the literal definition of racism”; Florida Sen. Marco Rubio declared that the words did “not [reflect] well on us as a nation; and then-House Speaker Paul D. Ryan called Trump’s attack on the Indiana judge a “textbook definition of a racist comment.”

As for your meanderings about "defense mechanisms" you should've stuck to your initial statement that you're no psychiatrist, because you really don't know what you're talking about. My position on the apparent support or ignorance by trump's base of his racism has been consistent since 2016. It's consistent now, and it'll be the same in 2022 or 2024 no matter what the political landscape looks like. What you don't get is that there is occasionally more to politics than just your side winning, which is why one of the taglines of all the McCain-fan nevertrumpers like Steve Schmidt is country before party. I honestly don't care a lick for Biden and the typical neoliberals that have come to dominate the democratic party, and I was prepared to write-in Bernie or Warren until just a few months ago. I didn't get to vote for my first choice because your choice was just so crushingly awful that a third party vote was not the best thing imo for the country. But don't take my word for it. Why don't you ask lean-libertarians or lean-conservatives like @pgg or @VA Hopeful Dr why they didn't vote for trump even though trump's policies likely aligned slightly more with their political interests.
 
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vector2

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I have many highly educated republican close friends who voted for Trump. Universally their thinking is “I wish Trump didn’t say racist and stupid things. He’s a terrible human being. But I agree with 80% of his policies and only 10% of Biden’s. I’m going to vote with what people do rather than what they say.”

Some of them have changed their minds since the election fraud tantrum. Others do think the policy stuff that sounds the worst was twisted and overhyped in the media when you actually read the details/context (children in cages, muslim ban, etc).

But again, I think all these people would have preferred a Kasich or Romney 100%. It’s just that the primary process is so messed up that this choice was made 100% by the maga hat crowd, which I still believe is a small but vocal minority in the party (a little like the socialist/squad/AOC part of the dems who have not gotten control of their party’s primary yet - but you are kidding yourself if you think they couldn’t in the future).

As a quick point, the details/context for family separation are worse than the headline

"
But the attorney general at the time, Jeff Sessions, made it clear what Mr. Trump wanted on a conference call later that afternoon, according to a two-year inquiry by the Justice Department’s inspector general into Mr. Trump’s “zero tolerance” family separation policy.

“We need to take away children,” Mr. Sessions told the prosecutors, according to participants’ notes. One added in shorthand: “If care about kids, don’t bring them in. Won’t give amnesty to people with kids.”

Rod J. Rosenstein, then the deputy attorney general, went even further in a second call about a week later, telling the five prosecutors that it did not matter how young the children were. He said that government lawyers should not have refused to prosecute two cases simply because the children were barely more than infants."

And let's not forget that 545 children are still separated from their parents and we have no idea how to reunite them. No matter your stance on immigration, this is not who we are as a country.



Regarding the Muslim ban, it seems strange that you talk so much about the value of judging an individual on his merits but yet you're willing to ban entire countries even when we have the tools necessary to do individual vetting. I was a fellow when the Muslim ban suddenly went into effect and I had residents who temporarily couldn't get back into the country because they were visiting home. That's how poorly thought-out and indiscriminate its implementation was.
 

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As a quick point, the details/context for family separation are worse than the headline

"
But the attorney general at the time, Jeff Sessions, made it clear what Mr. Trump wanted on a conference call later that afternoon, according to a two-year inquiry by the Justice Department’s inspector general into Mr. Trump’s “zero tolerance” family separation policy.

“We need to take away children,” Mr. Sessions told the prosecutors, according to participants’ notes. One added in shorthand: “If care about kids, don’t bring them in. Won’t give amnesty to people with kids.”

Rod J. Rosenstein, then the deputy attorney general, went even further in a second call about a week later, telling the five prosecutors that it did not matter how young the children were. He said that government lawyers should not have refused to prosecute two cases simply because the children were barely more than infants."

And let's not forget that 545 children are still separated from their parents and we have no idea how to reunite them. No matter your stance on immigration, this is not who we are as a country.



Regarding the Muslim ban, it seems strange that you talk so much about the value of judging an individual on his merits but yet you're willing to ban entire countries even when we have the tools necessary to do individual vetting. I was a fellow when the Muslim ban suddenly went into effect and I had residents who temporarily couldn't get back into the country because they were visiting home. That's how poorly thought-out and indiscriminate its implementation was.

Oh, I’m not saying it wasn’t racist or poorly thought out and executed. No doubt about that.

If Trump were smarter he would have said from the get-go that everyone who comes across the border illegally gets put back across Immediately with the children they brought, to apply for asylum there (ie the situation that he eventually worked out successfully).

Moreover, instead of blanket-banning certain countries he should have expanded legal immigration and travel visas greatly with requirements to pass educational, language and jobs-based extensive vetting. This would avoid racism, ensure we get high-value legal immigrants + workers and avoid (most) people who won’t integrate culturally or possibly cause harm (see france’s major problem).

Bottom line, we need to tightly vet and control who comes in this country, and keep a short leash on those who might overstay their welcome — but of course he messed up that too (not that dems have a good plan for other reasons).
 
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pgg

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I think y’all White men are scared. Been scared of losing power, status and money. Been scared that the left is trying to make an even playing field for the rest of us brown, black and women folk and that is taking away some of those God given American rights and entitlements that your ancestors took from the Indians and claimed as theirs then passed on to their future generations. Trump stokes and puts fire under that fear and wasn’t scared to put it out in the open for everyone to see.
Scared that now after the Obama presidency that black and brown folk from the US and abroad are coming for what has been given to y’all so easily simply because you won the uterus lottery. All the while the rest of us had to claw and work our way up through sheer hard work, determination and tears, enduring many doors shut in our faces, while having to prove that we are just as worthy because nothing was simply handed to us due to our wrong skin color and/or sex.
That fear of the average Joe living the American dream has been chipped away at for decades by “others” and Trump just came in at the perfect time with all his racist and mysogynistic rhetoric and many of y’all just slurped it all up and saw him as the savior that is going to save your “status” in America.

If I was a White man born and raised in this country, and my leverage was being taken away, hell who knows, I may have voted for him too. I don’t know.

Some are straight up racists for sure. Others don’t necessarily exhibit overt racism or even covert racism. But for sure, xenophobia and fear of the “others” taking what is rightfully yours.

Everything else is just pure old rationalization IMO.

Scared?

Here's a snippet of the latest from the "woke" at one of the hospitals where I work, with some specifics redacted to protect the innocent:

In an effort to eliminate disparaging language or references [...] has tasked all [facilities] to remove the word "slave" as part of any DEVICE (printer) name in [EMR].

To accomplish this, any device with "slave" in the name or mnemonic has been renamed to "local".
Example: If the user currently uses SLAVE to print to their local printer, they will need to use LOCAL after the renaming; if they use SLAVE132, after the device is renamed, they will use LOCAL132.

Some users may already be using MAIN for printing; this will remain in place as well. We will be completely removing all entries of “slave” on 30 Nov 2020. On this day any [EMR] command with “slave” in it will no longer work.

50 years of computer hardware naming conventions between primary controller devices and dependent accessory hardware need to change RIGHT NOW, and in about a week a bunch of people are going to come in to work to find their printers don't work.

No, my friend, I wasn't exactly "scared" when I read this email.
 
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Scared?

Here's a snippet of the latest from the "woke" at one of the hospitals where I work, with some specifics redacted to protect the innocent:



50 years of computer hardware naming conventions between primary controller devices and dependent accessory hardware need to change RIGHT NOW, and in about a week a bunch of people are going to come in to work to find their printers don't work.

No, my friend, I wasn't exactly "scared" when I read this email.
As sarcastic as you wanna be, (and I would know) you know damn well this is NOT what I am talking about.
But I am glad you aren’t scared. Don’t you have an ? Can’t you form a militia or something with the amount to metal and lead in your possession?

And I didn’t realize you were a Trumper.

Quite frankly, I don’t know where the SLAVE in computers came from.
But if it did come from slavery in the traditional American Black people tied to chains and beaten, killed, raped, removed from their families sense, then yeah, it does need a changing. And I don’t care if computers don’t work for a week. Because people are tired of this “it’s part of history” BS while not taking into consideration how things like this mentally affect other people. Like @AMEHigh eloquently put it earlier. The disregard for “other” human rights and feelings. Or something like that. I am on my second glass here.
 
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I think both Biden and Cuomo should come out and say they will pardon Trump. If you watch and listen to conservative media, these people really think Trump did not lose. I think Trump in an effort to protect himself is doing a lot of damage to the country.
 

Twiggidy

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Scared?

Here's a snippet of the latest from the "woke" at one of the hospitals where I work, with some specifics redacted to protect the innocent:



50 years of computer hardware naming conventions between primary controller devices and dependent accessory hardware need to change RIGHT NOW, and in about a week a bunch of people are going to come in to work to find their printers don't work.

No, my friend, I wasn't exactly "scared" when I read this email.
While I agree that given scenario is completely ridiculous, if this is the type of stuff that would make someone vote for Trump, that person is just as ridiculous as the policy.

Full disclosure, I connect the SLAVE to the echo machine everyday and have even made a “connect the indentured servant” joke under my breath (honestly because i don’t think my colleagues are quick enough to get the joke)
 

Twiggidy

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Moreover.....

I don’t care about any statues.
It’ll always be Mrs Butterworth and Aunt Jemima as far as I’m concerned.
OJ did it.
And yes, Kaepernick should be in the league.

Now, someone take me hunting so I can shot some non-human stuff and afterwards we’ll have an edible and discuss the top hip hop albums of all time.....hot take, To Pimp A Butterfly = overrated
 

pgg

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While I agree that given scenario is completely ridiculous, if this is the type of stuff that would make someone vote for Trump, that person is just as ridiculous as the policy.

Full disclosure, I connect the SLAVE to the echo machine everyday and have even made a “connect the indentured servant” joke under my breath (honestly because i don’t think my colleagues are quick enough to get the joke)
I wasn't talking about people voting for Trump.

I was responding to her ridiculous assertion that "y'all white men are scared" with some even more ridiculousness from this week that evoked an exhausted :rolleyes: from me. It was an example of one of the things the woke left does and it is among the reasons I don't vote for Democrats.

It does not follow from that I vote for Republicans in general or any specific Republican in particular. And I'll just point out that despite the dozens of times I've explicitly noted in this and other threads that I would not and did not vote for Trump (either in 2016 or 2020), choco's response (knee-jerk as usual) was to call me a "Trumpist". Which is itself another bit of typical woke-left ad hominem antic that reinforces the correctness of my decision to not vote for anyone on that side of the aisle.


For the record, I laughed at your indentured servant joke. Dark humor is the best humor.
 

vector2

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Oh, I’m not saying it wasn’t racist or poorly thought out and executed. No doubt about that.

If Trump were smarter he would have said from the get-go that everyone who comes across the border illegally gets put back across Immediately with the children they brought, to apply for asylum there (ie the situation that he eventually worked out successfully).

Moreover, instead of blanket-banning certain countries he should have expanded legal immigration and travel visas greatly with requirements to pass educational, language and jobs-based extensive vetting. This would avoid racism, ensure we get high-value legal immigrants + workers and avoid (most) people who won’t integrate culturally or possibly cause harm (see france’s major problem).

Bottom line, we need to tightly vet and control who comes in this country, and keep a short leash on those who might overstay their welcome — but of course he messed up that too (not that dems have a good plan for other reasons).

Lemme just address a couple points:

-I think asylum should remain the way it's always been- refugees should be able to stay in the US while their asylum proceeding is ongoing. But we must keep track of where they are while a decision is being made.

-Agree that legal immigration and travel visas should have been expanded. However, under trump it should be noted that *legal* immigration was cut by half. This is directly due to the racist intentions and policy of a one Stephen Miller.

-As far as "high-value" immigrants- we should be targeting these folks. Better if the brain drain affects other countries while we get their best talents. Buttttt, we have a TON of jobs here which immigrants with less education, both legal and undocumented, do which native Americans just don't. We at the very least need a robust guest worker program that builds on the various kinds of work visas available so we can get these people out of the shadows.

-Agree that ultimately we need strict oversight and control about who is coming in the country, no matter whether you are on the right or left



Regardless of where we disagree on these points, it's inarguable that trump and his crew literally picked the most racist, backward way to go about all of the right wing's immigration goals. Just like so many other things, they actually could've got more of what they wanted with different leadership at the top.
 
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I wasn't talking about people voting for Trump.

I was responding to her ridiculous assertion that "y'all white men are scared" with some even more ridiculousness from this week that evoked an exhausted :rolleyes: from me. It was an example of one of the things the woke left does and it is among the reasons I don't vote for Democrats.

It does not follow from that I vote for Republicans in general or any specific Republican in particular. And I'll just point out that despite the dozens of times I've explicitly noted in this and other threads that I would not and did not vote for Trump (either in 2016 or 2020), choco's response (knee-jerk as usual) was to call me a "Trumpist". Which is itself another bit of typical woke-left ad hominem antic that reinforces the correctness of my decision to not vote for anyone on that side of the aisle.


For the record, I laughed at your indentured servant joke. Dark humor is the best humor.
I have read your posts on how you wouldn’t vote for the man.
But yet here you sit defending his voter base and calling out the “woke left.”

So it’s quite frankly confusing. And therefor needs clarifying in case something has been missed by my “woke self.”

And yeah, shut the SLAVES down if they stand for good old American black people slavery. I am glad some of us black people can laugh at it, but that is not all of us.

EDIT... Now that I am not multitasking in the kitchen and drinking my wine, why even address me? I am specifically addressing Trump supporters of which you claim NOT to be. My speech was my opinion on White men who voted for Trump and why I think they did.
So why are you even responding and getting pissed off on the subject if that ain't you?
 
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vector2

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I wasn't talking about people voting for Trump.

I was responding to her ridiculous assertion that "y'all white men are scared" with some even more ridiculousness from this week that evoked an exhausted :rolleyes: from me. It was an example of one of the things the woke left does and it is among the reasons I don't vote for Democrats.

It does not follow from that I vote for Republicans in general or any specific Republican in particular. And I'll just point out that despite the dozens of times I've explicitly noted in this and other threads that I would not and did not vote for Trump (either in 2016 or 2020), choco's response (knee-jerk as usual) was to call me a "Trumpist". Which is itself another bit of typical woke-left ad hominem antic that reinforces the correctness of my decision to not vote for anyone on that side of the aisle.


For the record, I laughed at your indentured servant joke. Dark humor is the best humor.

To her point, when the left points to the inherent worry that many whites in the country have regarding changing demographics and power structures, I'm pretty sure they're not referring to white men fretting about corporate emails about primary controller devices or whether the hospital calls mobile computers WOWs instead of COWs.

Rather than watching you knockdown a strawman, I personally would be more interested in what you think about the rise of groups defending "Western chauvinism" or propagating white genocide conspiracy theories, or even the fact that one of our own posters a few pages ago analogized the so-called "woke left's" treatment of white men to the treatment of Jews by the Nazis or the treatment of the bourgeoisie by the Communists.
 
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vector2

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Like so many things on the right, the perception is usually worse than the reality

1606009233729.png



They jump over themselves to say that white discrimination is a problem, but when asked for specific examples they come up short. Kind of like massive voter fraud.
 
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Like so many things on the right, the perception is usually worse than the reality

View attachment 323632



They jump over themselves to say that white discrimination is a problem, but when asked for specific examples they come up short. Kind of like massive voter fraud.

Well... affirmative action is codified legal discrimination against whites (and Asians) in both schools and workplaces that’s gone on for 20+ years.... so I would say that’s the main example.

No matter how you argue, discrimination like that is on an individual level... even if you argue it’s for the greater societal good (which I don’t believe) or to correct/balance wrongs against groups.
 

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To her point, when the left points to the inherent worry that many whites in the country have regarding changing demographics and power structures, I'm pretty sure they're not referring to whites fretting about corporate emails about primary controller devices or whether the hospital calls mobile computers WOWs instead of COWs.

What you're missing is that all of these stupid trivial little things are the raindrops that make the flood. I'm perplexed and mildly annoyed because some of the people steering the woke left are C R A Z Y. That one of the "action items" to come out of a series of focus groups and diversity meetings was to rename (and break, at least temporarily) a bunch of printers because of master/slave terminology that merely reflects their LITERAL relationship on the network is just a symptom.

And yeah, I'm kind of joking with the whole thing. Kind of an incredulous head-shaking laugh, but a laugh all the same.

Rather than watching you knockdown a strawman, I personally would be more interested in what you think about the rise of groups defending "Western chauvinism" or propagating white genocide conspiracy theories, or even the fact that one of our own posters a few pages ago analogized the so-called "woke left's" treatment of white men to the treatment of Jews by the Nazis or the treatment of the bourgeoisie by the Communists.

You didn't name them, but I'm going to assume by "western chauvinists" you're referring to the Proud Boys. I do basically agree with one of their fundamental position statements, namely that they are "proud and unabashed proponents of western civilization." I think western secular democracy is superior to the kind of theocratic or kleptocratic totalitarianism many parts of the world endure, and I don't feel the least bit ashamed to declare that the cultures that embrace those systems are inferior to mine. They are, by any objective measure of personal freedom, economic opportunity, physical security, you name it.

I think the only good Communist is one who was, moments ago, comfortably sitting in a helicopter. Nazis should be hung.

Now, many of those Proud Chums are obviously saying those words in a manner and context that includes some dog-whistley and not-so-subtle white supremacist meaning. And yeah, those guys suck. Racists and white supremacists are bad people. If you're a racist N-hating piece of trash looking for some like-minded pals, that organization is probably fertile ground to search.

All conspiracy theories are idiotic. I don't know what else to say about what I think about that.


As for Jew/Nazi/bourgeoisie/Communist analogies, yes, I think those analogies are strained. (Any analogy involving Hitler is more or less by definition at least a little hyperbolic.) However when it comes to the lived experiences of people who hail from such places and have endured such regimes, I'm inclined to look beyond the hyperbole for what wisdom of experience may lie behind it.



Why do you think Biden lost ground (compared to Clinton 2016) with the Cuban-American vote in Florida? Why did these brown people vote for a racist? Could it be that there's something in their lived experience that makes them wary of what the Democratic party says is good for America? Maybe they see something they've seen before.
 

doctalaughs

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Lemme just address a couple points:

-I think asylum should remain the way it's always been- refugees should be able to stay in the US while their asylum proceeding is ongoing. But we must keep track of where they are while a decision is being made.

-Agree that legal immigration and travel visas should have been expanded. However, under trump it should be noted that *legal* immigration was cut by half. This is directly due to the racist intentions and policy of a one Stephen Miller.

-As far as "high-value" immigrants- we should be targeting these folks. Better if the brain drain affects other countries while we get their best talents. Buttttt, we have a TON of jobs here which immigrants with less education, both legal and undocumented, do which native Americans just don't. We at the very least need a robust guest worker program that builds on the various kinds of work visas available so we can get these people out of the shadows.

-Agree that ultimately we need strict oversight and control about who is coming in the country, no matter whether you are on the right or left



Regardless of where we disagree on these points, it's inarguable that trump and his crew literally picked the most racist, backward way to go about all of the right wing's immigration goals. Just like so many other things, they actually could've got more of what they wanted with different leadership at the top.

Those are your opinions. I’m saying you can be strictly anti-illegal immigration with ironclad policies, while not being racist. And it’s debatable that Americans “won’t do these jobs.” If we don’t have a nanny state providing for people, and the supply of illegals to do these jobs dries up— wages would have to go up and Americans would pick crops, do construction, mow lawns etc.

Too bad Trump couldnt eloquently execute policies like this without sounding like a racist.
 

chocomorsel

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Those are your opinions. I’m saying you can be strictly anti-illegal immigration with ironclad policies, while not being racist. And it’s debatable that Americans “won’t do these jobs.” If we don’t have a nanny state providing for people, and the supply of illegals to do these jobs dries up— wages would have to go up and Americans would pick crops, do construction, mow lawns etc.

Too bad Trump couldnt eloquently execute policies like this without sounding like a racist.
I am sorry. I need to know what a good fair wage for a crop picker should be. According to what I am seeing online they are making $12-16 an hour in California. Minimum wage is $12 an hour. Did these jobs used to pay much better in the past and when the pay went down people started quitting?
What do Americans want to get paid for these jobs?
I do agree with the nanny state though. Welfare goes too far and there needs to be a time limit on it.
 

Twiggidy

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Well... affirmative action is codified legal discrimination against whites (and Asians) in both schools and workplaces that’s gone on for 20+ years.... so I would say that’s the main example.

No matter how you argue, discrimination like that is on an individual level... even if you argue it’s for the greater societal good (which I don’t believe) or to correct/balance wrongs against groups.
Don’t forget men.....and rich people

I love when people want to argue against AA they conveniently neglected that it benefits white women the most, not to mention the poor folks in rural areas.
 
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pgg

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Those are your opinions. I’m saying you can be strictly anti-illegal immigration with ironclad policies, while not being racist. And it’s debatable that Americans “won’t do these jobs.” If we don’t have a nanny state providing for people, and the supply of illegals to do these jobs dries up— wages would have to go up and Americans would pick crops, do construction, mow lawns etc.
Probably.

Farm labor costs are a tiny fraction of retail food costs.

This article is almost 10 years old but it plausibly claims that a 40% increase in farm wages would result in a 3.6% increase in retail prices.

As always, the solution to illegal labor isn't to crack down on the poor people doing the labor. It's to levy fines against the people hiring that labor, and if the fines don't work, arrest prosecute convict and imprison them. They are committing crimes, after all. Now that weed's legal in CA there ought to be lodging available.

The average hourly wage for a nonsupervisory agricultural worker in 2018 per USDA was about $14/hr. Double it to $28/hr and Americans would do the job. Triple it to $42/hr and Americans would fight over the job. And worst case the cost of a head of lettuce would go up about 10%, a trivial amount.
 

Twiggidy

Manny Rivers Cuomo
Jan 13, 2015
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Those are your opinions. I’m saying you can be strictly anti-illegal immigration with ironclad policies, while not being racist. And it’s debatable that Americans “won’t do these jobs.” If we don’t have a nanny state providing for people, and the supply of illegals to do these jobs dries up— wages would have to go up and Americans would pick crops, do construction, mow lawns etc.

Too bad Trump couldnt eloquently execute policies like this without sounding like a racist.
The intersection of business owners and immigration reform would be a very interesting discussion because I'd make a small bet that many of those business owners that us undocumented labor (i'm so woke lol) also vote Republican so that intersection of Republican politics could be very interesting.
 

Twiggidy

Manny Rivers Cuomo
Jan 13, 2015
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Probably.

Farm labor costs are a tiny fraction of retail food costs.

This article is almost 10 years old but it plausibly claims that a 40% increase in farm wages would result in a 3.6% increase in retail prices.

As always, the solution to illegal labor isn't to crack down on the poor people doing the labor. It's to levy fines against the people hiring that labor, and if the fines don't work, arrest prosecute convict and imprison them. They are committing crimes, after all. Now that weed's legal in CA there ought to be lodging available.

The average hourly wage for a nonsupervisory agricultural worker in 2018 per USDA was about $14/hr. Double it to $28/hr and Americans would do the job. Triple it to $42/hr and Americans would fight over the job. And worst case the cost of a head of lettuce would go up about 10%, a trivial amount.
Nailing it right on the head right here, but it'll never happen, for the same reason that DUI's are mostly misdemeanors.
tenor-1.gif
That last part is a total thread de-railer, I know.
 
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