Scramble!

[FALL06]

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Hey forum

I have a couple of buddies that went to Ross with excellent step 1 and 2 scores. When they graduated, they had to scramble for residency and were not sure if they'd get trained in the states. This idea is very bothersome to me. My question is, even if you do have to scramble, what are the odds that you will not match for ANY residency (primary care, IM, etc...) . I'm not too worried about matching into a less desireable program, as long as the training is done in the states.

thanks

 

[oldpro]

Hey forum

I have a couple of buddies that went to Ross with excellent step 1 and 2 scores. When they graduated, they had to scramble for residency and were not sure if they'd get trained in the states. This idea is very bothersome to me. My question is, even if you do have to scramble, what are the odds that you will not match for ANY residency (primary care, IM, etc...) . I'm not too worried about matching into a less desireable program, as long as the training is done in the states.

thanks

This is missing so much I have no idea how to answer?

1. What kind of residency did they apply for?
2. How many programs did they list (Rank)?
3. What do you mean by Excellent scores? 230, 250? Because to me nothing less then 255 would be excellent. Your definition may be different.


These are the things that matter in Matching and it seems many students do not do homework on the match and do not understand how to do it right so no they do not match.

#1 reason, ranking programs that rarely match FMG's/ IMG's
Gotta know this stuff...................................

 

[PathOne]

According to the NRMP, approx. 50% of U.S. citizens graduating from a Foreign school (which would mostly be Carib schools), fail to match. Some of those manage to scramble, but obviously not all (see below). Additionally, 40% of foreign grads don't even make it into the match, as they fail to pass USMLE step 1. Passing rates for Step 2/3 is also in the 60-70% range.

In comparison, grads from US medical schools have 90%+ success rates in all of the above. So by the numbers, Carib is a dangerous way to go.

But to answer your specific question: Last year, NRMP had 1658 unmatched positions (approx. 7% of total). And you had 6643 who didn't match. So simple match-math tells you, that basically 75% of those that didn't match couldn't get anything in the scramble either. Pretty scary numbers.

However, you'd be hard pressed to get school-specific #'s out of ANY Carib school. For some reason, they don't like to publish such data....

 

[oldpro]

According to the NRMP, approx. 50% of U.S. citizens graduating from a Foreign school (which would mostly be Carib schools), fail to match. Some of those manage to scramble, but obviously not all (see below). Additionally, 40% of foreign grads don't even make it into the match, as they fail to pass USMLE step 1. Passing rates for Step 2/3 is also in the 60-70% range.

In comparison, grads from US medical schools have 90%+ success rates in all of the above. So by the numbers, Carib is a dangerous way to go.

But to answer your specific question: Last year, NRMP had 1658 unmatched positions (approx. 7% of total). And you had 6643 who didn't match. So simple match-math tells you, that basically 75% of those that didn't match couldn't get anything in the scramble either. Pretty scary numbers.

However, you'd be hard pressed to get school-specific #'s out of ANY Carib school. For some reason, they don't like to publish such data....

Yeah I did research and your mostly right but the Average Match rate is 53% for 2000 to 2006 and that does not include the Scramble and any out side matches of course.

I have to admit I think if you count the other two, eligible candidates probably only match at around 60%(My guess) in the end to the 99.9% US grads

On a side note I was surprised to see Canadian grads only matched at around 61% Last year! IMG's Matched at 48% Last year also

 

[FALL06]

Very informative pathone....thanks for your post 👍

 

[sumozmom]

Yeah I did research and your mostly right but the Average Match rate is 53% for 2000 to 2006 and that does not include the Scramble and any out side matches of course.

I have to admit I think if you count the other two, eligible candidates probably only match at around 60%(My guess) in the end to the 99.9% US grads

On a side note I was surprised to see Canadian grads only matched at around 61% Last year! IMG's Matched at 48% Last year also

ok...here we go....
(shhhhh don't tell anybody i asked but...) what is scramble
?

 

[FALL06]

it's when you use a fork or spatula to break the yolks and homogenize the eggs. Oh.....referring to medical school? 🙂 When graduating medical students do not match for residency, they must enter the scramble...where students "scramble" for the remaining residency positions. I personally prefer scrambled eggs.

 

[oldpro]

it's when you use a fork or spatula to break the yolks and homogenize the eggs. Oh.....referring to medical school? 🙂 When graduating medical students do not match for residency, they must enter the scramble...where students "scramble" for the remaining residency positions. I personally prefer scrambled eggs.

SO whats the answer to what I asked above? ................................Funny how there is so much against the Carib here.....................😕 Guess when I get a high post count then I get thanked LOL

 

[oldpro]

In comparison, grads from US medical schools have 90%+ success rates in all of the above. So by the numbers, Carib is a dangerous way to go.

You know I do not want to fight but you have over simplified things, 10 to 20% of the Caribbean Grads Match outside the match, so that is clearly left out and that makes the numbers 60 to 70% for Matching, but then again outside the match there are no official numbers, Path one Like you I'm not an expert just a student who has a promised match outside the Match, how? You make contacts and deals thats how Caribbean students can do this.

 

[PathOne]

Agree. NRMP data shows 47-53% match rate for US citizens from foreign schools for the last six years. As noted in my original post, you'd have to add some that prematch (which US seniors can't do, but IMG's can) and people who scramble. Still, I personally find it disconcerting, that there's bound to be quite a large group that doesn't get a position - especially as your chance of getting a spot certainly falls if you have to wait out a year or more.

However, it's inevitable that some will lose out, when there's more applicants than spots. And unfortunately, some Carib grads are simply not great prospects. This, however, cannot be faulted entirely on the schools. Programs generally look more on the applicants themselves than what school they're from, and some applicants simply aren't competitive. It obviously takes more than a fancy diploma and a couple of letters behind your name to become a good physician.

 

[SabaMed]

According to the NRMP, approx. 50% of U.S. citizens graduating from a Foreign school (which would mostly be Carib schools), fail to match. Some of those manage to scramble, but obviously not all (see below). Additionally, 40% of foreign grads don't even make it into the match, as they fail to pass USMLE step 1. Passing rates for Step 2/3 is also in the 60-70% range.

In comparison, grads from US medical schools have 90%+ success rates in all of the above. So by the numbers, Carib is a dangerous way to go.

But to answer your specific question: Last year, NRMP had 1658 unmatched positions (approx. 7% of total). And you had 6643 who didn't match. So simple match-math tells you, that basically 75% of those that didn't match couldn't get anything in the scramble either. Pretty scary numbers.

However, you'd be hard pressed to get school-specific #'s out of ANY Carib school. For some reason, they don't like to publish such data....

Most students are pre-matching now and wouldn't be in da match. US students can't prematch

 

[oldpro]

Agree. NRMP data shows 47-53% match rate for US citizens from foreign schools for the last six years. As noted in my original post, you'd have to add some that prematch (which US seniors can't do, but IMG's can) and people who scramble. Still, I personally find it disconcerting, that there's bound to be quite a large group that doesn't get a position - especially as your chance of getting a spot certainly falls if you have to wait out a year or more.

However, it's inevitable that some will lose out, when there's more applicants than spots. And unfortunately, some Carib grads are simply not great prospects. This, however, cannot be faulted entirely on the schools. Programs generally look more on the applicants themselves than what school they're from, and some applicants simply aren't competitive. It obviously takes more than a fancy diploma and a couple of letters behind your name to become a good physician.

You see this is right from the pdf from the NRMP 2000 to 2006 match data

U.S. Foreign Students :

2000 51.4% 2001 52.4% 2002 53.8% 2003 54.6% 2004 55.6% 2005 54.7% 2006 50.6%

Average = about 53.3% (373.1 / 7 ) Look these are the real numbers no where is 47% again I caution the bias factor of US students.

The Low number last year was 50.6% and the high was 55.6% so to be accurate in your statement Caribbean grads have matched between 50.6% and 55.6% this is the facts and the truth, but there are many who get residencies that are not even in the match ( not prematch but Outside the match) so easily thats 10% so then the numbers should be 60 to 65% match maybe more not a fantasy but cold hard facts and reason..............................

I know you are honestly trying to post what you believe, no hard feelings.

This does not mean to me that Caribbean is comparable but it also means its a safe way for good students and ones that work hard.
Lets put it this way, you want the system to stop filtering out the bad ones? Not everyone is meant to be a doctor that is posted all the time and the Caribbean accepts many that are not in the US, so over 90% get a residency from Carib? that would be a disaster no?

 

[McGillGrad]

Still, I personally find it disconcerting, that there's bound to be quite a large group that doesn't get a position - especially as your chance of getting a spot certainly falls if you have to wait out a year or more.

What I find disconcerting is the fact that you as an AMG spend so much time ****ting on Carib students. Mod or no mod, don't you have something better to do that pour salt in our wounds?

As if we do not know that things will be harder and that some doors will be closed. You are preaching to the choir because those who never match are not putting in extra effort to research their options. They just apply, get accepted and take up space in the classrooms and annoy us good students until they have the good grace to get caught cheating and are expelled.

 

[GreenShirt]

ok...here we go....
(shhhhh don't tell anybody i asked but...) what is scramble
?

Not everyone who goes into the Match gets matched. Those who don't find out two days before and have to "Scramble" the next day, which consists of frantically calling every school that has an opening and begging them for a spot. Scary.

 

[TheObserver]

This, however, cannot be faulted entirely on the schools. Programs generally look more on the applicants themselves than what school they're from, and some applicants simply aren't competitive. It obviously takes more than a fancy diploma and a couple of letters behind your name to become a good physician.

Agreed. If you aren't someone the other docs want in their program every day, it's not going to happen.

I don't think path was dumping on Carib schools, but we have to be honest - Almost all USIMGs would have been AMGs had a US allopathic program taken them. The fact that there ARE USIMGs shows that there is alwasys a path if you are willing to work to achieve your goals.

I'm not touching the USIMG/DO subject at all.

 

[vett9d1]

What exactly is this pre-match that US students cannot do and what is the process? Thanks

 

[effwun]

Any idea of what percent of all US-IMGs come from SGU/Ross/AUC/SABA? I mean, we're making a generalization about ALL US-IMGs, and there are what, 20+ (I'm guessing) schools just in the Caribbean, plus Mexico, South America, EU and Israel. I'd be more interested to know what number of the 4 schools I mentioned above don't match, or scramble.

Additionally...isn't it generally accepted that people go the the caribbean because isn't entirely obvious they have the stuff to make it in US schools, so is anyone really suprised that some percentage of those don't match?

 

[effwun]

You know...my last post is kinda dingus-ish. And I don't mean it that way. I mean that would definitely suck to get all the way through and not match or scramble. But for all the schools out there (Caribbean, Mexican, EU, etc), it would be interesting to see if some of them didn't match a larger percentage of graduates, or if it is consistently the lower X percentage of the class.

 

[GreenShirt]

There are hundreds of AMG that don't Match every year b/c of the way the algorithm is run. From the horror stories I've heard, some of these are great candidates too. So Scrambling is not just an IMG phenomenon.

As people have suggested, the low Match numbers for USIMGs is not necessarily b/c US programs have some bias against them, but probably due in part to the caliber of the students. If somebody got an incredibly low MCAT score/GPA, it's unlikely that they will score a 250 on the Step I and get an OrthoSurg spot. However, as the numbers indicate, there's a high % of USIMGs that do study hard, get the scores and get residencies. You just need to be realistic about what your capabilites are, if you think you can study hard and do well then go Carib. But if tests and science were never your strong suit, then it's probably not prudent to spend the money on the Carib. just b/c you can get in.

 

[smck27]

Even though 50% of IMG's match every year, Ross publishes 96% of their students in the past 5 years have attained a US residency (I think they count pre and scramble). I'm sure SGU is the same if not higher.

Remember IMG's count everyone coming from Mexico/England/other Europe/China/India rest of Asia etc. Out of the ~16,000 IMG's in the match every year only ~600 are from Ross. I don't know SGU's #'s and I believe Ross/SGU have the highest class sizes among the Caribbean.

 

[SabaMed]

The numbers are messed up. If you look at the match results from the top 4 carib schools vs rest your going have a huge difference. Like I've posted in the past I personally dont know anyone from Saba that hasn't matched in the whole time ive been here. Now that doesnt mean someone from Saba didnt match but I dont know who they are. I would expect SGU and the other two to be about the same. It all comes down to how you do on the step. I dont about the others but from the minute you start Saba we are geared for it. The step is the only level playing field to show that we in fact do know our stuff. I also have posted this before that you cant expect to just pass with a 185-187 and expect to get a residency but you need to do above 200. Automatically theres a 10-20 point curve against all carib grads.