Sean Mackey on Pain Medicine's Civil War

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https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/17/chronic-pain-management-opioids/

“There’s almost a McCarthyism on this, that’s silencing so many people who are simply scared,” said Dr. Sean Mackey, who oversees Stanford University’s pain management program.

“The thing is, we all want black and white. We don’t do well with nuance. And this is an incredibly nuanced issue.”

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Mackey's view totally misses the very real legal consequences of any potential harms due to opioids. His view of the world is compassionate doctors vs. non-compassionate doctors, nuanced and naive view of the real harms from opioids to society, to worsening of pain inpatients, and to jail time for physicians. The appropriate answer is Hell No! We the physicians of America will not risk our livelihood and prison due to nebulous medical board, state and federal laws in addition to civil suits trying to treat compassionately with opioids. The days of compassion were supplanted by attorney generals and their "physician expert witnesses" that micro dissect every chart entry or omission that they claimed to cause overdose deaths even when the evidence suggests otherwise. So the 20% of the receiving opioids that actually benefit long term from them will suffer because of the punitive nature of regulators and prosecutors in the absence of a safe harbor. The answer is Hell No!

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i was listening to a right wing commentator the other day on a conservative talk show whilst driving to the Sierras for a day of skiing in 6 feet of powder :).
he said something i will never forget. Americans watch a lot of TV, and there are a lot of medication related commercials such as "ask your doctor about ( latest med de jour here)". at the same time are attorney commercials that go something like "have you ever taken (latest bad med de jour here) then call us you might make as much money as this woman "they got me 200,000 dollars and i did not know i was entitled to compensation for my suffering". odd that they were able to ban tobacco commercials on TV but cannot seem to ban commercials for prescription meds or procedures with serious side effects.
 
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Mackey's view - opioid = compassion - is circa 2000. It's been surpassed by Anna Lempke's view. Thank god.
 
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"On NEJM’s website, the comments section devolved to a flame war more suited to YouTube than the staid pages of the nation’s top medical journal, with some accusing the authors of a lack of compassion, and others lauding them for a sane approach to public health and addiction prevention."

If you can't handle the comments' section of the NEJM, then you better stay out of SDN...
 
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Mackey's view - opioid = compassion - is circa 2000. It's been surpassed by Anna Lempke's view. Thank god.

So, who represents the view of moderates?
 
So, who represents the view of moderates?

Right. I guess that leaves us with @lobelsteve as the voice of reason and our only hope...

BTW, If you don't think that Sean Mackey is informed or level-headed on the issue of opioid therapy for chronic pain, then you pretty much live in banana-land...
 
If he is indeed informed about all the ramifications of what is happening in America to Physicians who prescribe opioids, then his response is even more concerning.

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If he is indeed informed about all the ramifications of what is happening in America to Physicians who prescribe opioids, then his response is even more concerning.

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doubtful he is informed, full tenured academic professor at stanford knows nothing about the physicians in the trenches
 
I don't think it should go back to the ways of the early 2000's, but it is swinging far the other direction. The thought of losing my livelihood, ending up in jail and not being able to provide for my family crosses my mind at times when I am writing a controlled substance, but is that reason enough to completely stop writing any C2's?

What about procedures? How many "that labor epidural caused my chronic back pain" patients have you seen? There is risk of litigation in everything in medicine.

Does one sit back, order every lab under the sun, MR the entire neuro axis, and recommend only gentle PT to their patients? I don't really know if even that will protect you from the nightmare that is the litigious nature of medicine. Everyone wants a free ride. I figure the best I can do is try to manage risk the best possible, document the heck out of it all, and trust my instinct. I just don't see a way to stay bulletproof in this game, so I try not to practice out of a position of fear and treat my patients like I would my family, sometimes that involves opioids as a portion (not all) of the treatment plan.
 
There are separate issues at play here. Civil litigation is still uncommon with respect to C-IIs although multiple states have now made it acceptable for third parties to sue the prescribing physician if they are injured by the second party, their patient if they are under the influence of C-II. Wrongful death suits have become more common. It is only a matter of time until we see lawyers advertising on TV about evil doctors prescribing opioids that led to injury (automobile accidents, falls, etc.).

But the more important issue is not civil litigation or fear of litigation- it is imprisonment and loss of license via years of criminal prosecution by attorney generals of the states. This occurs to both careful physicians and MD drug dealers alike. With attorney generals emboldened by their successes in court and before the state boards, the number of these prosecutions (including felony prosecutions for manslaughter and homicide) are accelerating. The notoriety of these cases has given attorney generals in other states and county prosecutors ammunition with which to stop the scourge of the drug epidemic, including heroin, since many of these ODs were caused by initial legitimate opioid prescriptions. Attorney generals seeking higher office use these drug prosecutions as a launchpad for their political careers, therefore the more the better. According to news reports in Indiana, 146 doctors were prosecuted by the attorney general in one year for opioid related offenses- a massive increase over past prosecutions. The prosecutions involve the state medical board, the attorney general, the state police, county coroner, sometimes city police, the DEA, and the state board of pharmacy all working in concert to stop these "evil doctors" from prescribing if there have been drug overdoses- even if the overdoses occurred up to 10 years before, and even if the overdose was not known by the physician. The charges are triple charges at the state medical board, state criminal charges, and federal criminal charges. Because these charges result in three sequential trials, the doctor essentially has no way to win. The medical board actions may extend over a 1-2 year period (delays by the attorney general) and no statutes concerning a timely trial exist. State criminal trials for Medicaid fraud (the doctor should not have been prescribing so much medicine, therefore is Medicaid fraud) or homicide may take another 2-3 years. Then if the physician prevails, the DEA charges await and a federal trial occurs, requiring another 2-3 years.

During this time, the physician expends massive outlays in attorney fees, have closed their practice due to both having their license to practice suspended during the trial period and the press coverage swallows everything the attorney general puts forth in accusations about the doctor. During the initial press conferences by the attorney general (after the physician's offices are raided, with the staff made to sit in a tight circle in the middle of the room, cannot make any cell calls or touch anything, and every computer is confiscated along with all cash, and every drawer and file is searched looking for pre-signed scripts or any opioids) in which they charge the physician with a laundry list of charges that include overprescribing, homicide, Medicare fraud, Medicaid fraud, insurance fraud, and several others, they ask the public if they know of any other dirt on the doctor, giving a 1-800 number to call to pile on. The "expert physician", a paid ***** of the state in some cases, that will always make the case the physician was overprescribing (since the paid expert does not prescribe opioids) or should not have prescribed because the patient was depressed or anxious or had an inadequate workup or had a single failed drug screen previously 5 years ago, etc. etc.. And this is at the medical board level. Even if the doctor prevails, he gets to do it all over again at the criminal state level, then if he prevails, once again at the federal level. The doctors career and life are destroyed whether he wins or not, and if there is homicide proven, he goes to prison. But it is not over yet.....the publicity the occurs from the trial and news reports launches a series of civil suits, some medical malpractice, and some outside the medical malpractice coverage.

This occurs over and over again across the US. Your compassion for patients is not a defense. Your desire to help mankind and reduce suffering has no bearing with respect to the juggernaut of the criminal prosecution system that descends upon you. Simply because you were not criminally prosecuted for 2 years after an overdose death does not protect you with a statute of limitations since you may be prosecuted for any deaths that occurred no matter how long ago. The state statute of limitations for wrongful death civil prosecutions/malpractice does not begin with death but begins with the discovery by the families of the deceased that the physician caused the death. The Kafka-like kangaroo courts with endless prosecutions on multiple levels is a nightmare for every doctor that has gone through this, and the uncertainty of any future in medicine lingers for years. In many cases, the state moves very slowly to permanent license revocation because once they have temporarily suspended the license the physician is unable to practice medicine. If the physician was foolish enough to surrender the DEA registration (commonly asked of the physician by DEA agents who tell physicians it would go easier on them if they did), the doctor is effectively signing their own career death warrant. The DEA never reinstates the registration until a physician prevails before the state trials and federal trials, and then only after suing the government to return the DEA registration.

There is simply no excuse for doctors to face triple trials for the same alleged offenses and no excuse for the state's fabrication of unsubstantiated charges. In some cases that I have been involved as a consultant, the state may present 6 deaths during trial that they allege was due to opioid overdose. When the autopsy reports are examined, a different conclusion is frequently reached, and the state uses published "toxicity levels" of opioids that are valid for acute opioid administration but not chronic opioid administration. In other words, the state fabricates charges that are non-sensical in many cases, but the expert witness, being paid to take the side of the state in one prosecution after the next, has as their charge to sway the jury no matter the science is lacking. There is no downside to the state fabricating charges. There is no downside for the expert witness, who may spew utter rubbish on the witness stand that does not stand up to scrutiny.

In the US today, doctors are being held responsible for deaths, even when the deaths may not be due to opioids or combinations of drugs prescribed by the doctor- it matters not, since the attorney generals have elected to abuse their power to put a targeted doctor out of business. A systemic method of prosecution has emerged that destroys good doctors and bad alike, without discrimination. Indeed the pendulum has swung extremely far to the conservative side for what is acceptable opioid prescribing, and now any bad outcome, present or past, is being used against physicians to destroy their careers and their lives. The attorney generals believe the physicians are 100% responsible for not only excess prescribing, but also for how patients use the medications inappropriately, and for the heroin epidemic. Their solution is to prosecute the same physician over and over until the state makes its case to a sympathetic jury or body (state medical board). Doctors with more than one patient death that the coroners determine died due to opioids and the high rollers were initially being targeted. However the scope of targeted physicians is being widening with physicians deemed to be seeing too many patients, prescribing opioids to the majority of their patients, operating during unusual hours or prescribing unsafe drug combinations being targeted. As the number of physicians prescribing opioids declines, patients are left with fewer choices for physicians which ends up concentrating the number of patients being seen by the physician, making the physician a target.

This is very very real.....it can happen to any physician prescribing opioids, and there are no safe harbors provided by the state or federal government. The only safe way is to just stop prescribing all C-II opioids. If you can't do that, then certainly reduce all your patients to 90 MED or lower, take all patients off methadone, and stop prescribing C-IIs for anyone taking benzodiazepines or who are known to consume alcohol. For patients with COPD or sleep apnea, 90 mg MED may still land you in court if the patient dies, even if it is from something unrelated- so for those patients I suggest 30mg MED max.
 
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There are separate issues at play here. Litigation is still uncommon with respect to C-IIs although multiple states have now made it acceptable for third parties to sue the prescribing physician if they are injured by the second party, their patient if they are under the influence of C-II. Wrongful death suits have become more common. It is only a matter of time until we see lawyers advertising on TV about evil doctors prescribing opioids that led to injury (automobile accidents, falls, etc.).
But the more important issue is not litigation or fear of litigation- it is imprisonment and loss of license. This occurs to both careful physicians and MD drug dealers alike. With attorney generals emboldened by their successes in court and before the state boards, the number of these prosecutions (including felony prosecutions for manslaughter and homicide) are accelerating. The notoriety of these cases has given attorney generals in other states and county prosecutors ammunition with which to stop the scourge of the drug epidemic, including heroin, since many of these ODs were caused by initial legitimate opioid prescriptions. Attorney generals seeking higher office use these drug prosecutions as a launchpad for their political careers, therefore the more the better. According to news reports in Indiana, 146 doctors were prosecuted by the attorney general in one year for opioid related offenses- a massive increase over past prosecutions. The prosecutions involve the state medical board, the attorney general, the state police, county coroner, sometimes city police, the DEA, and the state board of pharmacy all working in concert to stop these "evil doctors" from prescribing if there have been drug overdoses- even if the overdoses occurred up to 10 years before, and even if the overdose was not known by the physician. The charges are triple charges at the state medical board, state criminal charges, and federal criminal charges. Because these charges result in three sequential trials, the doctor essentially has no way to win. The medical board actions may extend over a 1-2 year period (delays by the attorney general) and no statutes concerning a timely trial exist. State criminal trials for Medicaid fraud (the doctor should not have been prescribing so much medicine, therefore is Medicaid fraud) or homicide may take another 2-3 years. Then if the physician prevails, the DEA charges await and a federal trial occurs, requiring another 2-3 years.
During this time, the physician expends massive outlays in attorney fees, have closed their practice due to both having their license to practice suspended during the trial period and the press coverage that swallows everything the attorney general puts forth in accusations about the doctor. During the initial press conferences by the attorney general (after the physician's offices are raided, with the staff made to sit in a tight circle in the middle of the room, cannot make any cell calls or touch anything, and every computer is confiscated along with all cash, and every drawer and file is searched looking for pre-signed scripts or any opioids) in which they charge the physician with a laundry list of charges that include overprescribing, homicide, Medicare fraud, Medicaid fraud, insurance fraud, and several others, they ask the public if they know of any other dirt on the doctor, giving a 1-800 number to call to pile on. The "expert physician", a paid ***** of the state in some cases, that will always make the case the physician was overprescribing (since the paid expert does not prescribe opioids) or should not have prescribed because the patient was depressed or anxious or had an inadequate workup or had a single failed drug screen previously 5 years ago, etc. etc.. And this is at the medical board level. Even if the doctor prevails, he gets to do it all over again at the criminal state level, then if he prevails, once again at the federal level. The doctors career and life are destroyed whether he wins or not, and if there is homicide proven, he goes to prison. But it is not over yet.....the publicity the occurs from the trial and news reports launches a series of civil suits, some medical malpractice, and some outside the medical malpractice coverage.
This occurs over and over again across the US. Your compassion for patients is not a defense. Your desire to help mankind and reduce suffering has no bearing with respect to the juggernaut of the criminal prosecution system that descends upon you. Simply because you were not criminally prosecuted for 2 years after an overdose death does not protect you with a statute of limitations since you may be prosecuted for any deaths that occurred no matter how long ago. The state statute of limitations for wrongful death civil prosecutions/malpractice does not begin with death but begins with the discovery by the families of the deceased that the physician caused the death. The Kafka-like kangaroo courts with endless prosecutions on multiple levels is a nightmare for every doctor that has gone through this, and the uncertainty of any future in medicine lingers for years. In many cases, the state moves very slowly to permanent license revocation because once they have temporarily suspended the license the physician is unable to practice medicine. If the physician was foolish enough to surrender the DEA registration (commonly asked of the physician by DEA agents who tell physicians it would go easier on them if they did), the doctor is effectively signing their own career death warrant. The DEA never reinstates the registration until a physician prevails before the state trials and federal trials, and then only after suing the government to return the DEA registration.
There is simply no excuse for doctors to face triple trials for the same alleged offenses and no excuse for the state's fabrication of unsubstantiated charges. In some cases that I have been involved as a consultant, the state may present 6 deaths during trial that they allege was due to opioid overdose. When the autopsy reports are examined, a different conclusion is frequently reached, and the state uses published "toxicity levels" of opioids that are valid for acute opioid administration but not chronic opioid administration. In other words, the state fabricates charges that are non-sensical in many cases, but the expert witness, being paid to take the side of the state in one prosecution after the next, has as their charge to sway the jury no matter the science is lacking. There is no downside to the state fabricating charges. There is no downside for the expert witness, who may spew utter rubbish on the witness stand that does not stand up to scrutiny.
In the US today, doctors are being held responsible for deaths, even when the deaths may not be due to opioids or combinations of drugs prescribed by the doctor. A systemic method of prosecution has emerged that destroys good doctors and bad alike, without discrimination. Indeed the pendulum has swung far to the conservative side in what is acceptable in opioid prescribing, and now any bad outcome, present or past, is being used against physicians to destroy their careers. This is very very real.....it can happen to any physician prescribing opioids, and there are no safe harbors provided by the state or federal government. The only safe way is to just stop prescribing all C-II opioids. If you can't do that, then certainly reduce all your patients to 90 MED or lower, take all patients off methadone, and stop prescribing C-IIs for anyone taking benzodiazepines or who are known to consume alcohol. For patients with COPD or sleep apnea, 90 mg MED may still land you in court if the patient dies, even if it is from something unrelated- so for those patients I suggest 30mg MED max.

I could not agree more. This is information and advice that all need to seriously consider. You are fooling yourself if you believe that your training, knowledge and experience as an expert in your field will protect you.


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There are separate issues at play here. Civil litigation is still uncommon with respect to C-IIs although multiple states have now made it acceptable for third parties to sue the prescribing physician if they are injured by the second party, their patient if they are under the influence of C-II. Wrongful death suits have become more common. It is only a matter of time until we see lawyers advertising on TV about evil doctors prescribing opioids that led to injury (automobile accidents, falls, etc.).

But the more important issue is not civil litigation or fear of litigation- it is imprisonment and loss of license via years of criminal prosecution by attorney generals of the states. This occurs to both careful physicians and MD drug dealers alike. With attorney generals emboldened by their successes in court and before the state boards, the number of these prosecutions (including felony prosecutions for manslaughter and homicide) are accelerating. The notoriety of these cases has given attorney generals in other states and county prosecutors ammunition with which to stop the scourge of the drug epidemic, including heroin, since many of these ODs were caused by initial legitimate opioid prescriptions. Attorney generals seeking higher office use these drug prosecutions as a launchpad for their political careers, therefore the more the better. According to news reports in Indiana, 146 doctors were prosecuted by the attorney general in one year for opioid related offenses- a massive increase over past prosecutions. The prosecutions involve the state medical board, the attorney general, the state police, county coroner, sometimes city police, the DEA, and the state board of pharmacy all working in concert to stop these "evil doctors" from prescribing if there have been drug overdoses- even if the overdoses occurred up to 10 years before, and even if the overdose was not known by the physician. The charges are triple charges at the state medical board, state criminal charges, and federal criminal charges. Because these charges result in three sequential trials, the doctor essentially has no way to win. The medical board actions may extend over a 1-2 year period (delays by the attorney general) and no statutes concerning a timely trial exist. State criminal trials for Medicaid fraud (the doctor should not have been prescribing so much medicine, therefore is Medicaid fraud) or homicide may take another 2-3 years. Then if the physician prevails, the DEA charges await and a federal trial occurs, requiring another 2-3 years.

During this time, the physician expends massive outlays in attorney fees, have closed their practice due to both having their license to practice suspended during the trial period and the press coverage swallows everything the attorney general puts forth in accusations about the doctor. During the initial press conferences by the attorney general (after the physician's offices are raided, with the staff made to sit in a tight circle in the middle of the room, cannot make any cell calls or touch anything, and every computer is confiscated along with all cash, and every drawer and file is searched looking for pre-signed scripts or any opioids) in which they charge the physician with a laundry list of charges that include overprescribing, homicide, Medicare fraud, Medicaid fraud, insurance fraud, and several others, they ask the public if they know of any other dirt on the doctor, giving a 1-800 number to call to pile on. The "expert physician", a paid ***** of the state in some cases, that will always make the case the physician was overprescribing (since the paid expert does not prescribe opioids) or should not have prescribed because the patient was depressed or anxious or had an inadequate workup or had a single failed drug screen previously 5 years ago, etc. etc.. And this is at the medical board level. Even if the doctor prevails, he gets to do it all over again at the criminal state level, then if he prevails, once again at the federal level. The doctors career and life are destroyed whether he wins or not, and if there is homicide proven, he goes to prison. But it is not over yet.....the publicity the occurs from the trial and news reports launches a series of civil suits, some medical malpractice, and some outside the medical malpractice coverage.

This occurs over and over again across the US. Your compassion for patients is not a defense. Your desire to help mankind and reduce suffering has no bearing with respect to the juggernaut of the criminal prosecution system that descends upon you. Simply because you were not criminally prosecuted for 2 years after an overdose death does not protect you with a statute of limitations since you may be prosecuted for any deaths that occurred no matter how long ago. The state statute of limitations for wrongful death civil prosecutions/malpractice does not begin with death but begins with the discovery by the families of the deceased that the physician caused the death. The Kafka-like kangaroo courts with endless prosecutions on multiple levels is a nightmare for every doctor that has gone through this, and the uncertainty of any future in medicine lingers for years. In many cases, the state moves very slowly to permanent license revocation because once they have temporarily suspended the license the physician is unable to practice medicine. If the physician was foolish enough to surrender the DEA registration (commonly asked of the physician by DEA agents who tell physicians it would go easier on them if they did), the doctor is effectively signing their own career death warrant. The DEA never reinstates the registration until a physician prevails before the state trials and federal trials, and then only after suing the government to return the DEA registration.

There is simply no excuse for doctors to face triple trials for the same alleged offenses and no excuse for the state's fabrication of unsubstantiated charges. In some cases that I have been involved as a consultant, the state may present 6 deaths during trial that they allege was due to opioid overdose. When the autopsy reports are examined, a different conclusion is frequently reached, and the state uses published "toxicity levels" of opioids that are valid for acute opioid administration but not chronic opioid administration. In other words, the state fabricates charges that are non-sensical in many cases, but the expert witness, being paid to take the side of the state in one prosecution after the next, has as their charge to sway the jury no matter the science is lacking. There is no downside to the state fabricating charges. There is no downside for the expert witness, who may spew utter rubbish on the witness stand that does not stand up to scrutiny.

In the US today, doctors are being held responsible for deaths, even when the deaths may not be due to opioids or combinations of drugs prescribed by the doctor- it matters not, since the attorney generals have elected to abuse their power to put a targeted doctor out of business. A systemic method of prosecution has emerged that destroys good doctors and bad alike, without discrimination. Indeed the pendulum has swung extremely far to the conservative side for what is acceptable opioid prescribing, and now any bad outcome, present or past, is being used against physicians to destroy their careers and their lives. The attorney generals believe the physicians are 100% responsible for not only excess prescribing, but also for how patients use the medications inappropriately, and for the heroin epidemic. Their solution is to prosecute the same physician over and over until the state makes its case to a sympathetic jury or body (state medical board). Doctors with more than one patient death that the coroners determine died due to opioids and the high rollers were initially being targeted. However the scope of targeted physicians is being widening with physicians deemed to be seeing too many patients, prescribing opioids to the majority of their patients, operating during unusual hours or prescribing unsafe drug combinations being targeted. As the number of physicians prescribing opioids declines, patients are left with fewer choices for physicians which ends up concentrating the number of patients being seen by the physician, making the physician a target.

This is very very real.....it can happen to any physician prescribing opioids, and there are no safe harbors provided by the state or federal government. The only safe way is to just stop prescribing all C-II opioids. If you can't do that, then certainly reduce all your patients to 90 MED or lower, take all patients off methadone, and stop prescribing C-IIs for anyone taking benzodiazepines or who are known to consume alcohol. For patients with COPD or sleep apnea, 90 mg MED may still land you in court if the patient dies, even if it is from something unrelated- so for those patients I suggest 30mg MED max.


Algos:

I appreciate all of the thought, and candor, of your last post.But there is also a lot of bitterness that is palpable.
I think there is a middle ground that can be navigated.


I current work in a system that services mostly two counties - Marion and Polk - in Oregon with a population
of about 300 - 350K. I just got word from my PDMP that about 1% of the patients in the two counties (3300)
are on > 120MED and .5% > 240MED (1800). My job is - in part - to help reduce the harms of those regimens
and to stop them from being perpetuated in the opioid naive.


<120MED Cohort

I've gone out of my way to get the word out about the CDC guidelines to my local medical community, medical board, the DOJ, and the FBI.
We also need support from organizations and their leadership in letting the public know and they need get ready to support, rather than
vilify the messengers - you and me and others in our situations - in the process. Change doesn't need to occur over night for most of these folks
but it will need to occur at some agreed upon tempo based on our individualized risk assessments. Importantly, some of the harm reduction must
fall back into the hands of the prescribers who accompanied these patients on this journey so that they learn how difficult the conversations are,
and thus when they are forced to have them themselves - rather than punting to us - they learn the value of not repeating their mistakes
in the future. The entire medical culture around opioids need to change. Organizational leadership and risk management needs to have
skin in the game and stop ducking this issue.


>240 - 1000 MED Cohort

Some of these folks are never going to be able to be on a safe dose or taper. This group contains the 'lost generation'. It's fair to lead with
a taper but, from experience, it's going to be very, very painful for everyone involved including the patient, their family, us, our staff, etc.
In my experience buprenorphine can reduce harms here for some of the 240 - 1000MED folks. But it is hard work and a heavy lift. Most of
these patients are TERRIFIED of withdrawal symptoms and thus utterly pre-contemplative about any change. If we are honest, most all of these
folks meet DSM-V OUD by virtue of tolerance and withdrawal. But, as that in and of itself is stigmatizing diagnosis there is resistance to it. The mere suggestion of it often leads to ad hominem attacks on-line, or to administration, about the character of the messenger: he/she was rude, called me an addict, was threatening, was brusque, was angry, didn't read my chart, didn't ask me about My pain, was cavalier, judged me before he even saw me, lacked compassion, told me he was going to stop my opioids,called my compassionate PCP a dolt for doing this, was doctrinaire in his insistence to adherance to the stupid CDC guidelines, said my 7 spine surgeries and two spinal cord stimulators were unnecessary, doesn't understand that MY pain is different, unique, not like those other druggies. I have come to terms with this vilification by way of accepting it as consequence of their addiction and denial.


>1000 MED Cohort
MTD or oxycodone for years at these levels makes it nigh on impossible to implement a taper or conversion to buprenorphine. And you are right, there
are no safe harbors or good sam laws that protect any one prescribing to these patients. What to do with a 50y/o FBSS patient on MTD 200mg x 20yrs?
We need Good Samaritan/Safe Harbor legislation in every state for the experts that have to maintain these people where they are. Yes, prescribe naloxone,
yes offer a taper, yes get rid of the benzo's, Soma, ETOH, yes do the usual due diligence with UDS, and special material risk notifications that acknowledge
the added risk - > 9 fold risk of OD and > 125 fold risk of addiction - Q6mo, but someone will very likely need to continue the medication lest they go to
illicit heroin or fentanyl.

Lastly, the addiction psychiatry perspective on COT needs a larger public forum. I have learned more from them than any of my pain mentors. Many
very smart addiction psychiatrists consider high dose COT in the working-aged as office based MAT by another name. Importantly, they - including Dr. Lempke & Dr. Kolodny - do not lack for compassion and do not advocate for cutting these patients off. Addiction psychiatrists on the whole are folks who are cut of a different cloth. You don't go into that specialty if you are an individual who lacks compassion:) They advocate for honestly recognizing what the medical community and Pharma did here was to create an epidemic of iatrogenic addiction, but out of humanity and mercy for the patients affected, continuing the dangerous therapy when it can't be walked back. We need to recognize they are right and stop conflating COT with mercy or compassionate care. That argument - Lynn Webster's - is trite.

Some smart folks in Seattle have been thinking about this problem for a long time. Not surprisingly the best, most comprehensive solution I have seen comes from them. I think this program needs widespread adoption: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286629/

The results of this trial will be released in April. It will be an important step forward.
 
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I could not agree more. This is information and advice that all need to seriously consider. You are fooling yourself if you believe that your training, knowledge and experience as an expert in your field will protect you.


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At NANS yesterday Josh Prager stated that the CDC guidelines are for family practice docs and are not meant for specialists. A couple docs next to me actually smiled and one clapped a couple times. This was in the AAPM sponsored session.

At the NANS presidential address this morning Dr Sharan made a strong statement that "medications are maximally invasive."

I agree with you NJPAIN. I've seen at least 4 physicians in my region have their practices shut down.




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I tell the patients coming in to see me taking >120 MG MED that it doesn't matter anymore how long they have been on pain meds nor that they believe only high dose opioids help. They are coming down and I show them the studies that reflect high dose moving to low dose or off actually have less pain. I no longer give them any choice. They mention my lack of compassion and I counter with going to jail because I cannot control how they use the opioids nor use same day as alcohol or benzodiazepines trumps my compassion. They are given no other choice...and they improve after the reduction in dose

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I'm pretty sure most folks do this as well. I counsel patients that might be candidates for opiates in my practice that 90meq is max is it and if they need more they go back to their prior doc, but no docs I know are assuming or taking in patients over 90meq. I am keeping my list and taking all non palliative folks (cancer or terminal illness) down on meds slowly. Even if for some folks it is just 5 pills per month reduction.....
 
What's everyone's opinion and which is more important, decreasing the MED or weaning off bzd and soma? I personally feel that soma has absolutely no clinical indication ever, but are there situations where any of you will consider maintaining some dose of benzos, panic attacks, severe anxiety, etc. or is it just an absolute no for most on this forum?
 
What's everyone's opinion and which is more important, decreasing the MED or weaning off bzd and soma? I personally feel that soma has absolutely no clinical indication ever, but are there situations where any of you will consider maintaining some dose of benzos, panic attacks, severe anxiety, etc. or is it just an absolute no for most on this forum?
It's a no no for me..
I've gotten a lot of backlash and heat from some of my patients. Don't even try to wean them off yourself, it's a lost battle.
 
It's a no no for me..
I've gotten a lot of backlash and heat from some of my patients. Don't even try to wean them off yourself, it's a lost battle.

Please elaborate on the backlash. Let's get this out in the open.
 
Unfortunately from a legal perspective pain physicians are treated completely differently than addiction specialists. Attorney generals consider pain physicians to be the cause of the opioid epidemic and addiction specialists to be the salvation of the addicted population. Addiction specialists are off limits from prosecution even if they prescribe routinely 240-2000mg MED and regardless of deaths from these dosages.

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I think many addictionologists - particularly addiction psychiatry - have been standing in the wings shaking their heads for many years while our specialty has lined it's wallet on pills and procedures. The problem is they are nice, decent people, like Canadians, so they held their tongues out of politeness. IMO it's time for them to step up. We need them involved in pain fellowships, teaching fellows that at a lot of the BS of years past was BS, and we need more of them in the US, they bring a lot to the table. Had I known then what I know now, I probably would have been one of them.
 
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In my rural neck of the woods addictionologists are either primary care or anesthesiology docs who are former addicts. They get referred a patient with obvious OUD, declare that they need to continue on opioids because they have pain, and then prescribe the meds for them as recklessly as the prior physician. I haven't seen much of what I consider "real" addiction medicine since I left academics. I have been searching for someone to partner with to deal with the opioid refugees without success. Without someone like that in my corner I'm not touching them.


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Addiction psychiatry is a cut above. I'm sorry but a 5yr gestation, instead of one, makes a difference.
 
Please elaborate on the backlash. Let's get this out in the open.
They get angry, the usual complaints of that no one understands their anxiety or their pain. Believe me, I don't try to be confrontational about the subject, and try to be as empathetic as I can be. I won't jeopardize my license to avoid some nonesensical quarrel. It's no use once they have their own personal agenda. Once they realize I won't budge, they usually find another prescriber.
Oh well, I guess it is just part of practicing pain medicine in the midst of the benzo/opioid epidemic. I learned early on, to carefully review all records from referrals and PDMPs prior to scheduling an initial appointment with me.
 
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In my rural neck of the woods addictionologists are either primary care or anesthesiology docs who are former addicts. They get referred a patient with obvious OUD, declare that they need to continue on opioids because they have pain, and then prescribe the meds for them as recklessly as the prior physician. I haven't seen much of what I consider "real" addiction medicine since I left academics. I have been searching for someone to partner with to deal with the opioid refugees without success. Without someone like that in my corner I'm not touching them.


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You can always get your x waiver and start prescribing Suboxone.
 
You can always get your x waiver and start prescribing Suboxone.

I have the x waiver for many years. Problems are 1. It doesn't address the most important issue, the behavioral one and I have no one good to do that. 2. After a few lying/faking high dose oxycodone and fentanyl patients developing precipitated withdrawal in my office I determined I was done playing amateur addictionologist.


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The patients on some combination of a benzo, soma, and an opioid are the bane of my existence! If I had a nickel for every argument I've had with patients about weaning off a benzo or soma, I would be a very wealthy guy!
It drives me crazy.

Some of the other doctors in my practice still routinely prescribe opioids and either a benzo or soma. When asked about the increased liability from this, I've been told that it boils down to LOCAL practice patterns for determination of malpractice. If most of the other pain docs in your area are doing this, then it's ok. I don't think that argument holds water anymore, now that opioid overdoses are subject to CRIMINAL prosecution.

What are your thoughts on concurrent prescriptions for either opioids + a benzo or opioids + soma. I personally am very conservative on this front. With the exception of terminal cancer, no patient should be on more than 90 MEDs (ideally even less), no one should be taking opioids with either soma or a benzo, and opioids should be considered last line agents for the treatment of chronic, nonmalignant pain. Multidisciplinary care should be the norm.

As a conservative prescriber, I often feel like a black sheep in pain medicine. Often I feel like practicing high quality, ethical, evidence based medicine and being financially successful are mutually exclusive in pain medicine. Sad but true.
 
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There is no other way to mitigate
I have the x waiver for many years. Problems are 1. It doesn't address the most important issue, the behavioral one and I have no one good to do that. 2. After a few lying/faking high dose oxycodone and fentanyl patients developing precipitated withdrawal in my office I determined I was done playing amateur addictionologist.


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That is the only way I can think of for mitigating the problem. We are at the point of harm reduction. Addiction specialists do not have a magic wand, that also play by the same rules we do. Of course they way are more knowledgeable about psychopharm and diagnosing psych problems. But we all have to go by what our patients tell us.
It is a difficult job. Not for the faint of heart.
 
What are your thoughts on concurrent prescriptions for either opioids + a benzo or opioids + soma. I personally am very conservative on this front. With the exception of terminal cancer, no patient should be on more than 90 MEDs (ideally even less), no one should be taking opioids with either soma or a benzo, and opioids should be considered last line agents for the treatment of chronic, nonmalignant pain. Multidisciplinary care should be the norm.

As a conservative prescriber, I often feel like a black sheep in pain medicine. Often I feel like practicing high quality, ethical, evidence based medicine and being financially successful are mutually exclusive in pain medicine. Sad but true.

It is a number's game. Dependent patient just want to continue to take their deadly combinations, and for many of them that is all they care about. Malingerers and chemical copers are way too enabled in our medical community. Say no to their requests and they will find their next fix at someone else's office (run by midlevels) accross the street. Literally that's what happens to me on a daily basis.
Oh well..
 
At NANS yesterday Josh Prager stated that the CDC guidelines are for family practice docs and are not meant for specialists. A couple docs next to me actually smiled and one clapped a couple times. This was in the AAPM sponsored session.

At the NANS presidential address this morning Dr Sharan made a strong statement that "medications are maximally invasive."

I agree with you NJPAIN. I've seen at least 4 physicians in my region have their practices shut down.




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Is he right? Has anyone checked the intended audience/scope of the guidelines?
 
I current work in a system that services mostly two counties - Marion and Polk - in Oregon with a population
of about 300 - 350K. I just got word from my PDMP that about 1% of the patients in the two counties (3300)
are on > 120MED and .5% > 240MED (1800). My job is - in part - to help reduce the harms of those regimens
and to stop them from being perpetuated in the opioid naive.

Hmm...how exactly how does that work in the real world without any formal authority? If I were a patient engaged in a physician-patient relationship and another physician came into the room and started talking about "their job" to do reduce "my risk" I think that both my physician and me would tell him to go f*ck himself....
 
Hmm...how exactly how does that work in the real world without any formal authority? If I were a patient engaged in a physician-patient relationship and another physician came into the room and started talking about "their job" to do reduce "my risk" I think that both my physician and me would tell him to go f*ck himself....

I've heard things very much like that:) But, none us are immune from what Algos shared. Let that, and PDMP data, and the CDC guidelines sink in.
 
I've heard things very much like that:) But, none us are immune from what Algos shared. Let that, and PDMP data, and the CDC guidelines sink in.
That is exactly right. Just because we are pain medicine, doesn't mean we are immune to these nuances. Someone dies, you're at fault, and get ready to face the consequences.
 
That is exactly right. Just because we are pain medicine, doesn't mean we are immune to these nuances. Someone dies, you're at fault, and get ready to face the consequences.

Umm, that is, if you are at fault. Lots goes into that. People die every day.
 
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At NANS yesterday Josh Prager stated that the CDC guidelines are for family practice docs and are not meant for specialists. A couple docs next to me actually smiled and one clapped a couple times. This was in the AAPM sponsored session.

At the NANS presidential address this morning Dr Sharan made a strong statement that "medications are maximally invasive."

I agree with you NJPAIN. I've seen at least 4 physicians in my region have their practices shut down.




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Funny thing is that the CDC didn't turn to Josh Prager when they assembled their expert panel to craft the guidelines. In fact, they didn't turn
to anyone in the IPM field. I can't help but think they thing that we - or most of us - are a part of the problem.
 
Funny thing is that the CDC didn't turn to Josh Prager when they assembled their expert panel to craft the guidelines. In fact, they didn't turn
to anyone in the IPM field. I can't help but think they thing that we - or most of us - are a part of the problem.

I wonder what kinds of biases motivated the selection of the expert panel? And, if any deliberate/closed door decisions to exclude competing points of view ultimately tainted the process?
 
They get angry, the usual complaints of that no one understands their anxiety or their pain. Believe me, I don't try to be confrontational about the subject, and try to be as empathetic as I can be. I won't jeopardize my license to avoid some nonesensical quarrel. It's no use once they have their own personal agenda. Once they realize I won't budge, they usually find another prescriber.
Oh well, I guess it is just part of practicing pain medicine in the midst of the benzo/opioid epidemic. I learned early on, to carefully review all records from referrals and PDMPs prior to scheduling an initial appointment with me.

Read through these comments here or here or here and you'll detect a common theme: patients on high dose opioids don't want them changed and they are not above waging ad hominem attacks against your character if you suggest otherwise. If you recall the public comments to the CDC guidelines you will remember they were identical. Moreover, more than one astro turf pain group started a letter writing campaign to UW following Dr. Ballantyne's NJEM article requesting that she be fired.

Difficult conversations are difficult, and can become confrontational, and uncomfortable, and there are often reprisals for having them. So many tend to avoid them. But that's not a good long term strategy.
 
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Read through these comments here and you'll detect a common theme: patients on high dose opioids don't want them changed and they are not above waging ad hominem attacks against your character if you suggest otherwise. If you recall the public comments to the CDC guidelines you will remember they were identical. Moreover, more than one astro turf pain group started a letter writing campaign to UW following Dr. Ballantyne's NJEM article requesting that she be fired.

Difficult conversations are difficult, and can become confrontational, and uncomfortable, and there are often reprisals for having them. So many tend to avoid them. But that's not a good long term strategy.

Amen to that.
 
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I wonder what kinds of biases motivated the selection of the expert panel? And, if any deliberate/closed door decisions to exclude competing points of view ultimately tainted the process?

What is the competing point of view? That high dose opioids are safe and effective for CNP? Can you or Sean MacKey or Josh Prager or Lynn Webster say that with a straight face? I don't see the 'nuance' in this view.

Jane, Roger, David Tauben, Mark Sullivan, Tom Freiden, Vivek Murthy, Michael Von Korff, Anna Lempke, Len Paulozzi, Jim Shames, etc, all have a very nuanced view of both pain and addiction. They get the human suffering and population level view. I know because I've been blessed to know some of them personally and I get to talk to them frequently. These are not people driven by enormous egos, or money, or some clandestine ideology. They are driven by humanity and truth. None of them are waging a war on pain patients or advocating for 'cutting people off' but - just like the high dose patients themselves - people who have built departments or businesses on liberal opioid prescribing aren't above slinging that innuendo if they disagree with them.
 
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The plight of the pain physician prescribing opioids reminds me of the révolution française. The leaders clamoring for change were eventually to become victims themselves of the revolution, since the changes never went far enough to appease the forthcoming zealots. Ballantyne and PROP were instrumental in bringing awareness to the overdose epidemic and calling for radical change. However, they did not anticipate their actions would lead to a reign of terror upon pain physicians by state attorney generals, medical boards, and the DEA.
 
What is the competing point of view? That high dose opioids are safe and effective for CNP? Can you or Sean MacKey or Josh Prager or Lynn Webster say that with a straight face? I don't see the 'nuance' in this view.]

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I have never heard Sean Mackey advocate for high dose opioid therapy, have you?

Perhaps the "nuanced" point of view is that applying "population-based health care" to individualized pain management is like trying to taste the color turquoise: First, "pain" is by definition subjective. Second, "management" is by nature an activity constructed/shared between the doctor and the patient. Therefore, it makes as much sense to apply population-based health care concepts to pain management as it does to apply them to cosmetic surgery or psychoanalysis. In the former a good aesthetic outcome is subjective, in the latter a good "insight" is also subjective. What defines meaningful reduction in "pain" for a patient with chronic pain? The answer is, more or less, whatever the patient says it is...

When public university professors, workers compensation directors, large HMO health services researchers, and other government-medical bureaucrats claim that aggregated/epidemiological data from groups of patients can be applied to personalized care in the examination room they are knowingly & willingly misleading front-line clinicians who probably don't know better. Pain management is nothing like HTN, DM, or high cholesterol disease management. The reasons behind their deception may be varied and complex: Maybe they simply want to direct and control resources. Maybe they're paternalistic. What they don't disclose is that they have indirect financial COI's: They trade on and advance their careers based upon government grants, committee assignments, review panels, tenure, etc. No controversy, no gravy...there is no reason to believe that anyone working in academia or the government is inherently more ethical, less corruptible, or altruistic than anyone else...

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View attachment 213778

I have never heard Sean Mackey advocate for high dose opioid therapy, have you?

Perhaps the "nuanced" point of view is that applying "population-based health care" to individualized pain management is like trying to taste the color turquoise: First, "pain" is by definition subjective. Second, "management" is by nature an activity constructed/shared between the doctor and the patient. Therefore, it makes as much sense to apply population-based health care concepts to pain management as it does to apply them to cosmetic surgery or psychoanalysis. In the former a good aesthetic outcome is subjective, in the latter a good "insight" is also subjective. What defines meaningful reduction in "pain" for a patient with chronic pain? The answer is, more or less, whatever the patient says it is...

When public university professors, workers compensation directors, large HMO health services researchers, and other government-medical bureaucrats claim that aggregated/epidemiological data from groups of patients can be applied to personalized care in the examination room they are knowingly & willingly misleading front-line clinicians who probably don't know better. Pain management is nothing like HTN, DM, or high cholesterol disease management. The reasons behind their deception may be varied and complex: Maybe they simply want to direct and control resources. Maybe they're paternalistic. What they don't disclose is that they have indirect financial COI's: They trade on and advance their careers based upon government grants, committee assignments, review panels, tenure, etc. No controversy, no gravy...there is no reason to believe that anyone working in academia or the government is inherently more ethical, less corruptible, or altruistic than anyone else...

View attachment 213779

So should we just ignore all clinical research in pain medicine, because of the inherent subjectivity in clinical practice? Is that what you're suggesting?
 
So should we just ignore all clinical research in pain medicine, because of the inherent subjectivity in clinical practice? Is that what you're suggesting?

Not at all. We just keep the government out of explaining the results and rationing resources. The breakthroughs in pain medicine will be made on the genomics/cellular/precision medicine side of science using real experimental designs. Not based upon chart reviews, epidemiological extractions off an EMR, and GIGO science.
 
There are separate issues at play here. Civil litigation is still uncommon with respect to C-IIs although multiple states have now made it acceptable for third parties to sue the prescribing physician if they are injured by the second party, their patient if they are under the influence of C-II. Wrongful death suits have become more common. It is only a matter of time until we see lawyers advertising on TV about evil doctors prescribing opioids that led to injury (automobile accidents, falls, etc.).

But the more important issue is not civil litigation or fear of litigation- it is imprisonment and loss of license via years of criminal prosecution by attorney generals of the states. This occurs to both careful physicians and MD drug dealers alike. With attorney generals emboldened by their successes in court and before the state boards, the number of these prosecutions (including felony prosecutions for manslaughter and homicide) are accelerating. The notoriety of these cases has given attorney generals in other states and county prosecutors ammunition with which to stop the scourge of the drug epidemic, including heroin, since many of these ODs were caused by initial legitimate opioid prescriptions. Attorney generals seeking higher office use these drug prosecutions as a launchpad for their political careers, therefore the more the better. According to news reports in Indiana, 146 doctors were prosecuted by the attorney general in one year for opioid related offenses- a massive increase over past prosecutions. The prosecutions involve the state medical board, the attorney general, the state police, county coroner, sometimes city police, the DEA, and the state board of pharmacy all working in concert to stop these "evil doctors" from prescribing if there have been drug overdoses- even if the overdoses occurred up to 10 years before, and even if the overdose was not known by the physician. The charges are triple charges at the state medical board, state criminal charges, and federal criminal charges. Because these charges result in three sequential trials, the doctor essentially has no way to win. The medical board actions may extend over a 1-2 year period (delays by the attorney general) and no statutes concerning a timely trial exist. State criminal trials for Medicaid fraud (the doctor should not have been prescribing so much medicine, therefore is Medicaid fraud) or homicide may take another 2-3 years. Then if the physician prevails, the DEA charges await and a federal trial occurs, requiring another 2-3 years.

During this time, the physician expends massive outlays in attorney fees, have closed their practice due to both having their license to practice suspended during the trial period and the press coverage swallows everything the attorney general puts forth in accusations about the doctor. During the initial press conferences by the attorney general (after the physician's offices are raided, with the staff made to sit in a tight circle in the middle of the room, cannot make any cell calls or touch anything, and every computer is confiscated along with all cash, and every drawer and file is searched looking for pre-signed scripts or any opioids) in which they charge the physician with a laundry list of charges that include overprescribing, homicide, Medicare fraud, Medicaid fraud, insurance fraud, and several others, they ask the public if they know of any other dirt on the doctor, giving a 1-800 number to call to pile on. The "expert physician", a paid ***** of the state in some cases, that will always make the case the physician was overprescribing (since the paid expert does not prescribe opioids) or should not have prescribed because the patient was depressed or anxious or had an inadequate workup or had a single failed drug screen previously 5 years ago, etc. etc.. And this is at the medical board level. Even if the doctor prevails, he gets to do it all over again at the criminal state level, then if he prevails, once again at the federal level. The doctors career and life are destroyed whether he wins or not, and if there is homicide proven, he goes to prison. But it is not over yet.....the publicity the occurs from the trial and news reports launches a series of civil suits, some medical malpractice, and some outside the medical malpractice coverage.

This occurs over and over again across the US. Your compassion for patients is not a defense. Your desire to help mankind and reduce suffering has no bearing with respect to the juggernaut of the criminal prosecution system that descends upon you. Simply because you were not criminally prosecuted for 2 years after an overdose death does not protect you with a statute of limitations since you may be prosecuted for any deaths that occurred no matter how long ago. The state statute of limitations for wrongful death civil prosecutions/malpractice does not begin with death but begins with the discovery by the families of the deceased that the physician caused the death. The Kafka-like kangaroo courts with endless prosecutions on multiple levels is a nightmare for every doctor that has gone through this, and the uncertainty of any future in medicine lingers for years. In many cases, the state moves very slowly to permanent license revocation because once they have temporarily suspended the license the physician is unable to practice medicine. If the physician was foolish enough to surrender the DEA registration (commonly asked of the physician by DEA agents who tell physicians it would go easier on them if they did), the doctor is effectively signing their own career death warrant. The DEA never reinstates the registration until a physician prevails before the state trials and federal trials, and then only after suing the government to return the DEA registration.

There is simply no excuse for doctors to face triple trials for the same alleged offenses and no excuse for the state's fabrication of unsubstantiated charges. In some cases that I have been involved as a consultant, the state may present 6 deaths during trial that they allege was due to opioid overdose. When the autopsy reports are examined, a different conclusion is frequently reached, and the state uses published "toxicity levels" of opioids that are valid for acute opioid administration but not chronic opioid administration. In other words, the state fabricates charges that are non-sensical in many cases, but the expert witness, being paid to take the side of the state in one prosecution after the next, has as their charge to sway the jury no matter the science is lacking. There is no downside to the state fabricating charges. There is no downside for the expert witness, who may spew utter rubbish on the witness stand that does not stand up to scrutiny.

In the US today, doctors are being held responsible for deaths, even when the deaths may not be due to opioids or combinations of drugs prescribed by the doctor- it matters not, since the attorney generals have elected to abuse their power to put a targeted doctor out of business. A systemic method of prosecution has emerged that destroys good doctors and bad alike, without discrimination. Indeed the pendulum has swung extremely far to the conservative side for what is acceptable opioid prescribing, and now any bad outcome, present or past, is being used against physicians to destroy their careers and their lives. The attorney generals believe the physicians are 100% responsible for not only excess prescribing, but also for how patients use the medications inappropriately, and for the heroin epidemic. Their solution is to prosecute the same physician over and over until the state makes its case to a sympathetic jury or body (state medical board). Doctors with more than one patient death that the coroners determine died due to opioids and the high rollers were initially being targeted. However the scope of targeted physicians is being widening with physicians deemed to be seeing too many patients, prescribing opioids to the majority of their patients, operating during unusual hours or prescribing unsafe drug combinations being targeted. As the number of physicians prescribing opioids declines, patients are left with fewer choices for physicians which ends up concentrating the number of patients being seen by the physician, making the physician a target.

This is very very real.....it can happen to any physician prescribing opioids, and there are no safe harbors provided by the state or federal government. The only safe way is to just stop prescribing all C-II opioids. If you can't do that, then certainly reduce all your patients to 90 MED or lower, take all patients off methadone, and stop prescribing C-IIs for anyone taking benzodiazepines or who are known to consume alcohol. For patients with COPD or sleep apnea, 90 mg MED may still land you in court if the patient dies, even if it is from something unrelated- so for those patients I suggest 30mg MED max.
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my job is associated with a major medical center. there are no additionologists here. i wouldnt even know where to find one.

and its "attorneyS general"
 
right, it does appear to be intended for the PCP audience however, do you think this will prevent lawyers, medical boards, DEA from using it against us?

http://legalnewsline.com/stories/51...lines-will-be-used-by-plaintiffs-bar-wlf-says
“Will the plaintiffs bar use these guidelines in their pending litigation? I have no doubt that, yes, they will,” Samp told Legal Newsline.

Read the rest of the article where Samp shredded the CDC for doing what they did against federal guidelines.


Further, in a linked article:


“Dr. Jane Ballantyne is one of the most respected pain specialists in the country and internationally, which is the reason the CDC asked her to join their expert group,” he said in a statement to Legal Newsline.



“Mr. Pitts should be ashamed of himself for attempting to smear Dr. Ballantyne’s reputation.”


Pitts noted Ballantyne’s connection to law firm Cohen Milstein Sellers & Toll PLLC -- a plaintiffs law firm that is known for its class action lawsuits and has been hired by a number of state attorneys general in recent years, including some of those to whom it donated.



Ballantyne reportedly disclosed her services as a paid consultant for Cohen Milstein to the CDC. The firm currently is helping to represent the City of Chicago in a lawsuit filed against a group of pharmaceutical companies over the marketing of opioid painkillers.



It is also helping to represent the
California counties of Orange and Santa Clara in a similar suit.


But the connection between Ballantyne and Cohen Milstein only came to light after a complete list of its Core Expert Group members and other internal documents surrounding the prescribing guidelines surfaced in September.
 
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