Seeking guidance on next steps as Nontrad

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younjoh

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Hello everyone! So I know I'm yet ANOTHER nontrad seeking guidance from the wise people of this forum, but here goes :) I realize that if I am to make the right decisions now, I am in desperate need of expert guidance. As a word of warning, yes I am a total "newbie" to the medical world, but I would like to give it my all now that I'm older and more mature (22). For those that read through my paragraphs, musings, and many questions, thank you so much, your advice may ease my stress! :)

I'll start with undergrad. I graduated in 2012 from Grinnell College (private liberal arts) as a German/Global Development Studies major. My GPA was about 3.202. Low, I know, I was an econ major originally, and a D and withdraw later, changed my major.

Most of my previous experience in the sciences dealt with ecology and environmental science. As a consequence I haven't taken any of the prereqs for med school.

I'm currently a grad student at USC studying landscape architecture. After studying through this semester (ending in December) I've realized that I really want to be in a program with more rigorous sciences. A lot of the reasons I applied (more freedom, ability to make an impact) cannot be realized with this degree. I fully expect to get straight A's at the end of the program.

That leads to my first question.
1. Would leaving grad school at the completion of this semester to take prereqs make me look like a "quitter" on my application? I'm worried about not being taken seriously, but at the same time I don't want to invest more money into something I won't consider doing in the future as a career. (I am really worried about this). I could convert my masters into a certificate, but that would mean 20k worth of expenses.

If I continue with my decision to leave and take prereqs, I was wondering about how taking classes yourself/taking prereqs in a post bac program applies to my situation.
2. Would it behoove me to apply to a postbac program considering my gpa, (lack of) relevant extracurriculars, and interests? (I studied abroad in India studying among other things rural healthcare provision and nontraditional medicine, but that's about it for anything I've done directly related to medicine). The other factor I am considering is that I would still be relatively happy in a scientific field, such as toxicology, where I could study the impact of the environment on people, which could be a rewarding future for me, provided I don't make it to med school.

The last inquiry I have as to what would be helpful for me to do in my spare time in terms of extracurrics.
3. Should I shadow a physician? Volunteer in a hospital? What can I do that doesn't require special qualifications?

I know I haven't been too detailed, so if I can provide any info that will help, please tell me. And, seriously, THANK YOU, I can't describe how helpful it would be to get some advice at this point.

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1. Would leaving grad school at the completion of this semester to take prereqs make me look like a "quitter" on my application? I'm worried about not being taken seriously, but at the same time I don't want to invest more money into something I won't consider doing in the future as a career. (I am really worried about this). I could convert my masters into a certificate, but that would mean 20k worth of expenses.

is it possible to continue and complete your masters (not sure how this is being financed) but add in the pre-req classes on top?
 
Good news! You're 22, which means you're barely eligible to be called "non-trad". The GPA is low, but since you've got no prereqs yet, you have a wonderful opportunity to bring those up. Your path now is full of options. You can go the "informal" route and try to get your prereqs at a 4year school on your own. Or you can go the postbac route. Odds are probably better with the postbac route if you can get in.

I'd be concerned a little bit as an adcom, because you are young and it seems like you've not been able to commit to a life path yet. What makes you think medical school is going to be the magic pill that gets you where you want to go? Believe me when I say that med school is so far beyond what you (with the limited science background you have accumulated thus far) could imagine in terms of "rigorous". I was a chemistry major prior to medical school with loads of upper level biochem/chem/bio/physics courses and I've still been pretty blown away through the first three months of medical school. I'm not saying that it's not do-able, I have the tools to figure this stuff out precisely because I learned the baby steps in my undergrad. It takes a whole lot of dedication to not get behind with most (if not all) medical school curricula.

There's also the human element to deal with. If you just want more science, there are literally hundreds of options out there. A doctor is so much more than a scientist. You've got to WANT to deal with people. People who will frequently do absolutely nothing that you tell them they need to do to improve their health. You have to WANT to keep trying and be willing to jump through the flaming hoops of death that are going to get put into your way as you progress through the system.

If you've given it careful consideration and thought and you want to pursue it, first step is to get into a program to complete your prereqs and bring up the GPA as much as you can in the process.
 
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Hi NuttyEngDude! Thanks for the comment. Yes, it would be theoretically possible, I'd just accrue a lot of debt in the process (like 50-80k). I didn't accrue debt as an undergrad, but still, that would be a heavy load not considering the costs of the postbac classes themselves. In your opinion, would it be a deathblow if I moved into an informal route, as long as I justified the decision?
 
If you've given it careful consideration and thought and you want to pursue it, first step is to get into a program to complete your prereqs and bring up the GPA as much as you can in the process.

You've made several valid points that others have made. Thanks :) You are absolutely right.

My focus is not "honed," mostly because I think I am afraid. I am intimidated of what would lie ahead of me, which leads me to the decision to take the independent route, and try to get some relevant internship experience to learn if I could have a future in the profession (and not just a pipe dream).

The problem there is that many of the programs I looked at which I am considering for postbac (all Maryland/PA near where I live) don't accept you if you've taken more than 50% of the prereqs.

So I'm stuck in this difficult place. I think my best chance might be to get over it, and make a life commitment. I think perhaps the answer might lie in getting an internship/shadowing.

Thanks for hearing me out, what's your 2 cents?
 
You've made several valid points that others have made. Thanks :) You are absolutely right.

My focus is not "honed," mostly because I think I am afraid. I am intimidated of what would lie ahead of me, which leads me to the decision to take the independent route, and try to get some relevant internship experience to learn if I could have a future in the profession (and not just a pipe dream).

The problem there is that many of the programs I looked at which I am considering for postbac (all Maryland/PA near where I live) don't accept you if you've taken more than 50% of the prereqs.

So I'm stuck in this difficult place. I think my best chance might be to get over it, and make a life commitment. I think perhaps the answer might lie in getting an internship/shadowing.

Thanks for hearing me out, what's your 2 cents?

My 2 cents...

First, there's always a way. Unfortunately for non trads, the way is usually more difficult (hence my signature, not sure if it shows up when I'm on the iPhone, but it should say "If the road is easy, you're likely going the wrong way.") Programs are, as you've correctly pointed out, going to vary depending on the area you live. Going informal isn't a deal breaker, but you are going to want to get your classes at a 4 year. I usually advise folks without a degree that it's ok to go the community college route for the prereqs if you're going to follow up with a science bachelors at a 4 year. Since you've already got the bachelors nailed down, I wouldn't advise that route for you. Yes, it's going to cost a bit more money. That's where the "careful thought" comes in. You have to decide if it's worth it.

In terms of deciding if this is what you really want to do, here's my advise. Yes, it's a good thing to get some experience under your belt. You also need to realize that it is very likely that there will be changes between what you see and what your reality would be if you were to complete medical school. The medical world is getting shaken up quite a bit right now and even those of us in med school right now don't know where things are going to land or how it's going to affect us. Another unfortunate reality is that you cannot possibly understand the reality of medical school until you're neck deep in it. It's nothing like I saw when I was shadowing, and I'm just now starting to realize that it's never going to be, because I was a visitor who was only swimming in the kiddie pool then. Yes, in a few short years I'll get to be that guy and have that job. In between now and then there is so much (for lack of a better term) crap that I have to wade through.

I have to be careful, because often times when you talk to medical students, residents or doctors they can come across as bitter or malcontent with the life they have chosen. I'm not. I hope I don't end up that way. I love the choice I made and I'd do it again in a heartbeat even understanding how things are different than I expected. That may change as things progress...I don't know. The point I'm trying to drive home is that you have to want this. You have to want it really, really bad, because you're going to have to fight your butt off just to get into medical school. Then you're going to have to fight your butt off to stay there. Then you're going to have to fight your butt off to get a good residency. Then, if you've got any butt left, you get to fight the rest of it off to keep your hospital privileges, keep your patients happy, keep getting paid by stingy insurance companies or medicare, and do it all while enjoying the job you've fought your butt off to get. It would really suck, and I mean suck BAD to make it all that way and find out it wasn't what you really wanted. That's the reason you run into so many bitter med students, residents and doctors. You hit a certain point and it's just not worth it to go back. You have the fortune of being in a position to carefully assess what you want to do before you do it. By all means, get advice, get some shadowing, go take a swim in the kiddy pool. Heck, if you've got a med school near you, see if you can sit in on a class or two. Just be honest with yourself. Go in with your eyes, ears and mind wide open.

Ok, so that was more like a quarter, but oh well, I try...
 
My 2 cents...

First, there's always a way. Unfortunately for non trads, the way is usually more difficult (hence my signature, not sure if it shows up when I'm on the iPhone, but it should say "If the road is easy, you're likely going the wrong way.") Programs are, as you've correctly pointed out, going to vary depending on the area you live. Going informal isn't a deal breaker, but you are going to want to get your classes at a 4 year. I usually advise folks without a degree that it's ok to go the community college route for the prereqs if you're going to follow up with a science bachelors at a 4 year. Since you've already got the bachelors nailed down, I wouldn't advise that route for you. Yes, it's going to cost a bit more money. That's where the "careful thought" comes in. You have to decide if it's worth it.

In terms of deciding if this is what you really want to do, here's my advise. Yes, it's a good thing to get some experience under your belt. You also need to realize that it is very likely that there will be changes between what you see and what your reality would be if you were to complete medical school. The medical world is getting shaken up quite a bit right now and even those of us in med school right now don't know where things are going to land or how it's going to affect us. Another unfortunate reality is that you cannot possibly understand the reality of medical school until you're neck deep in it. It's nothing like I saw when I was shadowing, and I'm just now starting to realize that it's never going to be, because I was a visitor who was only swimming in the kiddie pool then. Yes, in a few short years I'll get to be that guy and have that job. In between now and then there is so much (for lack of a better term) crap that I have to wade through.

I have to be careful, because often times when you talk to medical students, residents or doctors they can come across as bitter or malcontent with the life they have chosen. I'm not. I hope I don't end up that way. I love the choice I made and I'd do it again in a heartbeat even understanding how things are different than I expected. That may change as things progress...I don't know. The point I'm trying to drive home is that you have to want this. You have to want it really, really bad, because you're going to have to fight your butt off just to get into medical school. Then you're going to have to fight your butt off to stay there. Then you're going to have to fight your butt off to get a good residency. Then, if you've got any butt left, you get to fight the rest of it off to keep your hospital privileges, keep your patients happy, keep getting paid by stingy insurance companies or medicare, and do it all while enjoying the job you've fought your butt off to get. It would really suck, and I mean suck BAD to make it all that way and find out it wasn't what you really wanted. That's the reason you run into so many bitter med students, residents and doctors. You hit a certain point and it's just not worth it to go back. You have the fortune of being in a position to carefully assess what you want to do before you do it. By all means, get advice, get some shadowing, go take a swim in the kiddy pool. Heck, if you've got a med school near you, see if you can sit in on a class or two. Just be honest with yourself. Go in with your eyes, ears and mind wide open.

Ok, so that was more like a quarter, but oh well, I try...

Thanks Deekle! That was definitely a silver dollar worth of advice :) I will continue in the informal 4 year route, and I am definitely with you about feeling it out. The way I see it, I will spend my time excelling at the prereqs, shadow/do relevant ECs, MCAT prep bla bla and see if I have the luck to get interviews/acceptances. If I really want it and still don't get it, I can still move into an applicaple Phd program, like toxicology, where I would still do meaningful work and be happy :) Excited to start checking things out seriously :) And thanks again for the pointers.
 
My 2 cents...

First, there's always a way. Unfortunately for non trads, the way is usually more difficult (hence my signature, not sure if it shows up when I'm on the iPhone, but it should say "If the road is easy, you're likely going the wrong way.") Programs are, as you've correctly pointed out, going to vary depending on the area you live. Going informal isn't a deal breaker, but you are going to want to get your classes at a 4 year. I usually advise folks without a degree that it's ok to go the community college route for the prereqs if you're going to follow up with a science bachelors at a 4 year. Since you've already got the bachelors nailed down, I wouldn't advise that route for you. Yes, it's going to cost a bit more money. That's where the "careful thought" comes in. You have to decide if it's worth it.

In terms of deciding if this is what you really want to do, here's my advise. Yes, it's a good thing to get some experience under your belt. You also need to realize that it is very likely that there will be changes between what you see and what your reality would be if you were to complete medical school. The medical world is getting shaken up quite a bit right now and even those of us in med school right now don't know where things are going to land or how it's going to affect us. Another unfortunate reality is that you cannot possibly understand the reality of medical school until you're neck deep in it. It's nothing like I saw when I was shadowing, and I'm just now starting to realize that it's never going to be, because I was a visitor who was only swimming in the kiddie pool then. Yes, in a few short years I'll get to be that guy and have that job. In between now and then there is so much (for lack of a better term) crap that I have to wade through.

I have to be careful, because often times when you talk to medical students, residents or doctors they can come across as bitter or malcontent with the life they have chosen. I'm not. I hope I don't end up that way. I love the choice I made and I'd do it again in a heartbeat even understanding how things are different than I expected. That may change as things progress...I don't know. The point I'm trying to drive home is that you have to want this. You have to want it really, really bad, because you're going to have to fight your butt off just to get into medical school. Then you're going to have to fight your butt off to stay there. Then you're going to have to fight your butt off to get a good residency. Then, if you've got any butt left, you get to fight the rest of it off to keep your hospital privileges, keep your patients happy, keep getting paid by stingy insurance companies or medicare, and do it all while enjoying the job you've fought your butt off to get. It would really suck, and I mean suck BAD to make it all that way and find out it wasn't what you really wanted. That's the reason you run into so many bitter med students, residents and doctors. You hit a certain point and it's just not worth it to go back. You have the fortune of being in a position to carefully assess what you want to do before you do it. By all means, get advice, get some shadowing, go take a swim in the kiddy pool. Heck, if you've got a med school near you, see if you can sit in on a class or two. Just be honest with yourself. Go in with your eyes, ears and mind wide open.

Ok, so that was more like a quarter, but oh well, I try...

Thank you so much for the perspective you've written. I'm also at a crossroads, deciding where to go from where I am now, and how to get there.
 
Another newbie looking for some advice:

How much value do adcomms place on the work you've been doing since undergrad? And does being a 26 y.o. non-trad help or hurt you? (and I apologize if there is a thread for this I haven't found yet) I never really planned on going into medicine, was a bio major undergrad and completed all the med school pre-reqs just due to my major req's (didn't get anything stellar, 3.2). In all honesty I was immature in my college days (played a sport and was in ROTC, school came second at the time). But since then, I've grown up a bit. I'm a nuclear engineer in the Navy (Officer) now, went through the nuke pipeline program and finished up my M-ENG. I have excelled in this program and great LOR's won't be difficult to get. But is this kind of work experience going to be enough to show these people that hey I am not some idiot, just wasn't on my game when I was 20? Or am I forever doomed due to my undergrad days?

Also, and I know this sounds petty, but is there any kind of value placed on where you received your degree? Does a 3.2 at a tough ivy carry any more weight? I hate obsessing over undergrad gap but its pretty much the only piece of the puzzle I am missing. Thanks for your help.
 
Another newbie looking for some advice:

How much value do adcomms place on the work you've been doing since undergrad? And does being a 26 y.o. non-trad help or hurt you? (and I apologize if there is a thread for this I haven't found yet) I never really planned on going into medicine, was a bio major undergrad and completed all the med school pre-reqs just due to my major req's (didn't get anything stellar, 3.2). In all honesty I was immature in my college days (played a sport and was in ROTC, school came second at the time). But since then, I've grown up a bit. I'm a nuclear engineer in the Navy (Officer) now, went through the nuke pipeline program and finished up my M-ENG. I have excelled in this program and great LOR's won't be difficult to get. But is this kind of work experience going to be enough to show these people that hey I am not some idiot, just wasn't on my game when I was 20? Or am I forever doomed due to my undergrad days?

Also, and I know this sounds petty, but is there any kind of value placed on where you received your degree? Does a 3.2 at a tough ivy carry any more weight? I hate obsessing over undergrad gap but its pretty much the only piece of the puzzle I am missing. Thanks for your help.

Ah, you're right in my wheelhouse now. (I'm a former Navy guy as well, though from the enlisted side). To answer your questions, YES, adcoms care about what you've done since undergrad. They're also going to want to see some recent grades. (A 3.2 at an Ivy school doesn't get you any extra credit.) I'm assuming that it's been a few years since you did your prereqs. You may have to do some or all of them over depending on how long it's been and what the requirements for the schools you apply to are. You're also on the low end for GPA. A 3.2 is going to be a tough sell for most M.D. schools. You could have a shot at D.O. (I'll let someone who's gone the DO route speak for that.) In your case, postbac or smp are probably going to be your best shot. (Again, I didn't get in via either of those programs so you may want to seek advice from someone who has completed either, or at least start calling and checking into programs.)

Unfortunately for you, Navy training that doesn't occur in a college/university setting doesn't really "count". Most Navy training can be used for college credit, but the grading system doesn't transfer and obviously doesn't affect your GPA. You're not doomed by any means. I didn't even start my undergrad until I was your age. I graduated at 30 and am now in medical school.

If you're serious about medical school, I'd start getting some shadowing experience, start studying MCAT and start looking into SMP or PostBac programs. With good grades and a little luck, you could be in medical school by 29.
 
A 3.2 is going to be a tough sell for most M.D. schools. You could have a shot at D.O. (I'll let someone who's gone the DO route speak for that.) In your case, postbac or smp are probably going to be your best shot. (Again, I didn't get in via either of those programs so you may want to seek advice from someone who has completed either, or at least start calling and checking into programs.)
(...)
With good grades and a little luck, you could be in medical school by 29.

Hi Deekle. :) With respect to my interest in emergency/disaster medicine, what is the difference between the DO/MD? Would my employment opportunities (/salary) be significantly reduced following the DO route? I keep hearing that they're basically the same, just the DO is more holistic focused, but I still don't understand the gap between the two. Part of me is in denial that it really just is that people are more familiar with the term MD over the DO. There must be more to it.
 
Hi Deekle. :) With respect to my interest in emergency/disaster medicine, what is the difference between the DO/MD? Would my employment opportunities (/salary) be significantly reduced following the DO route? I keep hearing that they're basically the same, just the DO is more holistic focused, but I still don't understand the gap between the two. Part of me is in denial that it really just is that people are more familiar with the term MD over the DO. There must be more to it.

Your situations are a bit different. You've GOT to do your prereqs, which gives you the opportunity to raise the cGPA. MD schools are possible at 3.4cGPA (I got in with a 3.4). Nutty already had his prereqs, so without a postbac or smp, he's got nothing to bring the GPA up. If he were planning on applying with a 3.2, his odds are best with DO. (Hopefully that was explained well, if not I can try to answer specific questions.)

Obviously the higher you can bring the GPA the better. A 3.4 is not a guarantee of getting into medical school. Heck, a 4.0 isn't a guarantee. The typical wisdom applies: bring the cGPA and sGPA up as high as you can, (Average is about a 3.5-3.6 or so) and get a good MCAT score. (Average is about a 28). Outside of that, get some good shadowing experience and great set of LORs. Then apply liberally and put your best foot forward at interviews.

As far as careers go, MD and DO are mostly the same. There are some differences as far as what specialties you can get into. If you're interested in emergency med, there's not much difference. As far as pay is concerned I'm not aware of a difference. You'd be doing the same job and you're a licensed physician, so any pay difference would probably just be coincidental or a factor of your negotiating ability.
 
Last edited:
younjoh,

Everything you could ever want to know about me in 4 posts:

Roughly a month before I started my post-bacc:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10396746

This summer while prepping for the MCAT:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=939305

A few weeks ago, first real danger of a bad post-bacc grade:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=955642

Yesterday, new MCAT scheduled:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13206690


If you'll pay tooth and nail to tack on pre-reqs into your masters then I think a post-bacc is what you need. Deekle is spot on in his advice. DO has the grade replacement option which works best if you have a lot of good grades but a few terrible ones that ruin it (you can spot-replace the bad grades with retakes). But because DO has slightly lower entrance requirement numbers, weighing the additional life experiences more heavily, non-trads generally have more success there. I chose an informal post-bacc for cost and convenience.
 
DO has the grade replacement option which works best if you have a lot of good grades but a few terrible ones that ruin it (you can spot-replace the bad grades with retakes). But because DO has slightly lower entrance requirement numbers, weighing the additional life experiences more heavily, non-trads generally have more success there. I chose an informal post-bacc for cost and convenience.

Thanks, this is really helpful. I had no idea that the DO had that option, and considering my GPA, I will definitely consider it as a possibility. Good luck on your MCAT!

Just on the off-hand chance, do you know any member who knows something about DC/Maryland med schools?
 
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