seeking some career advice

[krishnm]

Hi all -

I'm a few years out of college, and until now had been set on attending law school. Like others who have posted in this forum, a series of eye-opening experiences and some introspection about my strengths and likes have made me think hard about a mental health career. Aside from my own reading and one freshman level psych course (which I adored and very nearly made me major in psych), I have no formal background in the field. I'm hoping to volunteer somewhere and do some undergrad level coursework to test my interest and commitment before I go any further, but my questions are about the big picture and where I ultimately want to go re: graduate school.

I am very interested in psychotherapy/counseling, and would enjoy the academic rigor and challenge of a doctorate level program. If money were my primary concern, I'd go to law school, but the prospect of having more options/earning power is also making a doctorate more attractive. I have little interest in research, and given my background I don't think pursuing a phD is realistic or a good idea. The psy D degree is intriguing to me - from what I gather, the benefits of the degree would be a function of the quality of the program and how hard I would work, making the debate about the degree itself irrelevant. I'm aware of the prospect of debt, but if I decide this is what I want to do, it's not a deal breaker. What I am really troubled by is the notion that managed care is pushing doctorate-level psychologists out, and the trend is toward master's holders doing most therapy. How true is this, and should this steer me away from a doctorate?

Any other thoughts, advice from others' experience? I know there's a ton of relevant info scattered across the web, but am interested to hear from people in the field. thanks.

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[Logic Prevails]

Hi all -

I'm a few years out of college, and until now had been set on attending law school. Like others who have posted in this forum, a series of eye-opening experiences and some introspection about my strengths and likes have made me think hard about a mental health career. Aside from my own reading and one freshman level psych course (which I adored and very nearly made me major in psych), I have no formal background in the field. I'm hoping to volunteer somewhere and do some undergrad level coursework to test my interest and commitment before I go any further, but my questions are about the big picture and where I ultimately want to go re: graduate school.

I am very interested in psychotherapy/counseling, and would enjoy the academic rigor and challenge of a doctorate level program. If money were my primary concern, I'd go to law school, but the prospect of having more options/earning power is also making a doctorate more attractive. I have little interest in research, and given my background I don't think pursuing a phD is realistic or a good idea. The psy D degree is intriguing to me - from what I gather, the benefits of the degree would be a function of the quality of the program and how hard I would work, making the debate about the degree itself irrelevant. I'm aware of the prospect of debt, but if I decide this is what I want to do, it's not a deal breaker. What I am really troubled by is the notion that managed care is pushing doctorate-level psychologists out, and the trend is toward master's holders doing most therapy. How true is this, and should this steer me away from a doctorate?

Any other thoughts, advice from others' experience? I know there's a ton of relevant info scattered across the web, but am interested to hear from people in the field. thanks.

Hi there,

Firstly, I need to let you know that you're probably seeking advice in the wrong place. Although many people using this board have excellent advice and try to be as bias free as possible, the truth is that these people are the silent majority. The people that frequent this board most often appear to have their own agendas and biases. There have been more than a few times where members of this board have steered me in a direction that would be at odds with the feedback I would get from friends of mine that are working in the field. If you can, talk to any friends or contacts that are currently working in a NON-ACADEMIC mental health setting with their PhD.

Search the forum for a thread called "here come the masters level psychologists" (or something to that effect), where I argue why someone might want to do a MSc versus a PhD and what the big differences are in clinical (non-academic) settings.

Here's what I've learned in my own search for answers:
(to which I'm sure someone on this board with invested interests will present an illogical refutal I'm sure -sigh)

1) If what you want to do is clinical (non-academic work), then it seems to make the most sense (in terms of time spent in school) to a Masters degree (or I suppose, a Psy D if you're really hung up on being called "DR")

2) In terms of financial payoff (time/money invested and what you get back over your lifetime of work), it makes no sense to do a PhD or Psy D.

3) Masters level clinicians are not going anywhere. Phd's would also have to compete with the lower salaries of MSc clinicians. If this is the case, then PhD and Psy D degrees are likely to mean something else in ten years (such as supervisory positions - managing the cases of Masters level clinicians).

4) Grad school is a long haul. I know - I'm in it. Seven years on paper (including the MSc/Phd) can very easily be translated into 8-10 years.

This is info I've accumulated over the past year. I've received advice from several close friends (with PhD's and working in the field) who have no invested interests (i.e. needing to justify why THEY got their PhD's). I have also spent a long time looking at the salaries of different positions and what others have had to say about this topic.

I'm sure others on this board will jump in with their rebuttles (i.e. "Masters level Clinicians don't give as good treatment to patients and undermine psychology"), but all you need to do is think logically (require other arguments to be logical), realize where you get your information from, and seek out answers from multiple sources (it will reduce bias).

Hope this helps

 

[psypsypsy]

Speaking as a current clinical PhD student, I actually agree with all the points brad has made. If you're primarily interested in therapy, a clinical PhD probably won't be satisfying for you; you'll spend the majority of your time doing research. From what I know (which is limited, and probably biased) the money that PhD/PsyD clinicians are being paid is going down comparitively, because Masters Level clinicians are squeezing them out. The main problem I have with a PsyD, versus a law degree or an MD, is that you're spending a lot of money up front, but you're just not going to make the money when you get out that seems to really justify the situation. There are some very good PsyD programs, but that doesn't necessarily mean you get paid more coming out of them. Of course, there are exceptions, but you generally have to stick it out awhlie for that to happen. Then, you'd probably have to specialize in something where you didn't take insurance, in a fairly wealthy area. OR, become a supervisor, director of clinics, where you're doing less therapy, more management. Those are great options, but they take a number of years to have the experience necessary to pursue.

Lastly, the research really does indicate that masters level clinicians are no better or worse than PhD/PsyD level clinicians in giving therapy. That's why the insurance companies prefer to refer to master's level clinicians. That being said, if you're very interested in working with some specific manualized treatments, or with very difficult populations (borderline, bipolar, etc) than I doctorate may be more helpful and may train you more/make you marketable to work with them.

 

[50960]

It is not about who is or isn't better at therapy; probably the best overall trained mental health professionals (MD's) are the worst trained to do psychotherapy. Scope of practice is the big difference. The scope of practice for a licensed psychologist is much larger than a masters level therapist in the US. If anything look into scope of practice for your desired professions to help guide you, as this is really what is important when you are out there practicing.

 

[psychgal]

Hi all -

I'm a few years out of college, and until now had been set on attending law school. Like others who have posted in this forum, a series of eye-opening experiences and some introspection about my strengths and likes have made me think hard about a mental health career. Aside from my own reading and one freshman level psych course (which I adored and very nearly made me major in psych), I have no formal background in the field. I'm hoping to volunteer somewhere and do some undergrad level coursework to test my interest and commitment before I go any further, but my questions are about the big picture and where I ultimately want to go re: graduate school.

I am very interested in psychotherapy/counseling, and would enjoy the academic rigor and challenge of a doctorate level program. If money were my primary concern, I'd go to law school, but the prospect of having more options/earning power is also making a doctorate more attractive. I have little interest in research, and given my background I don't think pursuing a phD is realistic or a good idea. The psy D degree is intriguing to me - from what I gather, the benefits of the degree would be a function of the quality of the program and how hard I would work, making the debate about the degree itself irrelevant. I'm aware of the prospect of debt, but if I decide this is what I want to do, it's not a deal breaker. What I am really troubled by is the notion that managed care is pushing doctorate-level psychologists out, and the trend is toward master's holders doing most therapy. How true is this, and should this steer me away from a doctorate?

Any other thoughts, advice from others' experience? I know there's a ton of relevant info scattered across the web, but am interested to hear from people in the field. thanks.

Hi i guess I'll throw my two cents in as well. I think that either a master's level therapist or the PsyD. would be a great fit for you. I have friends who are both PhD's and PsyD's and the ones I know make much more as PsyD's (private practice vs. academia) This is purely anecdotal though. The experience in a clinical setting seems to be much greater in a PsyD. program than a master's. I am a non-traditional student that has tried several different careers-business, teaching, etc... I think knowing your own heart (which it sounds like you do) and going for what you want is most important. There are sevral excellent PsyD. programs available with excellent internship placement rates etc.. If you look at the APPIC match site you realize that many matches are PsyD students. I am personally more a research person but I honestly believe that the PsyD is generally the better practioner degree. Best wishes for your future.

 

[psychgeek]

My two cents …

Master’s degrees may be easier to get initially but harder to use. While masters lv clinicians aren’t going anywhere, they are disadvantaged relative to psychologists when competing for clients. Given a choice people would rather go to a therapist with more training than a therapist with less training. It isn’t that masters lv clinicians are squeezing out psychologists; it’s that they are offering a cheaper alternative and thus lowering the price that psychologists can charge. Psychologists won’t be replaced as therapists by people with masters, they’ll just be poorer because of them.

Also, there are two big problems with trying to become a therapist with a masters. First, becoming an independent practitioner with a masters degree requires a lot of post-graduate supervised work (I think it is 3 years in my state). There are a ton of people who want this supervision and only a handful of places you can get it. Medicare and insurance will not reimburse for unlicensed therapists so masters holders who want to practice independently have to desperately try to get one of a few poorly paying jobs somewhere that sees Medicaid and unfunded patients. Second, the rules for independent practice for masters level clinicians is highly variable from state to state. This isn’t a problem provided you don’t want to move out of state, but if you do it could be quite difficult to gain the right to see patients independently again.

Of course there are problems with getting a PhD and a PsyD too, but I think the previous posters did a good job of covering them. If you really hate the idea of doing research, I’d personally suggest going into a good PsyD program. You can get licensed six years after you enter the program which means you only lose a year compared to masters plus post-grad work and the PsyD is accepted as equivalent to a PhD by almost everyone who doesn’t have a PhD .

 

[krishnm]

thanks to all for your helpful advice....in terms of next steps, as I said I'm planning to take some courses and do some volunteering before I get too excited. I know some of the typical things people do, like volunteering at a hotline or a drop-in center, etc.. Have people done other types of work that may be revealing?