seems just about anyone can get into medical school these days

[TRAMD]

It is all spelled out here in intricate detail...
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

This is somewhat helpful but only distinguishes two groups. US seniors are all 4th year students in US MD programs. The independent group includes grads of US MD schools, DO seniors and grads, carib seniors and grads and IMGs.

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[TRAMD]

I'd go with "whether you went to a US-based MD (or DO, arguably) program is important." After grades, boards, LoRs, etc., your school's name is pretty low on the list in grand scheme of things.

$.02, of course.

I agree. Look again at what I wrote:

"Where you go to school is VERY important. Programs have a strong preference for US MD over carib MD and a slight preference for US MD over US DO. There is, of course, also some preference given based on which US MD school you attend."

The first two sentences relate to US MD vs DO or carib. There is far less difference between different US schools and any preference probably only exists if the PD or interviewer has ties to the school or if it is Johns-Hopkins, Harvard, etc.

 

[caribstudent07]

I am currently a Caribbean medical student getting prepared to start second year, and I would like to share my experiences.

I am near the top of my class, and I have thus far scored very well on my shelf exams and preliminary USMLE qbank tests, which are both scaled to include U.S. medical students.

Many of my Professors were either former faculty at U.S. medical schools, or they are currently visiting Professors from U.S. medical schools, including top 20 schools.

I have spent the past 12 months, including this past summer, working about 12-15 hours per day. I am hoping to obtain a competitive USMLE score.

After I take the step 1, I will rotate in US hospitals, where I will continue to work hard. I plan on graduating in 4 years.

Whether you think it is fair or not, I hope the U.S. Medical Students here who is read this remembers that students like me, who are intelligent, hard-working, and highly-motivated in medical school, might in fact out compete some of you for a competitive residency.

Someone who is a faculty member or Resident at a hospital that you rotate at, who is in fact supervising and teaching you, might be an IMG.

Complaining that admission standards are easier for Caribbean students, or bashing my qualifications as either a student, or later on, as an MD, will not help you meet your individual goals.

 

[Meatwad]

As far as IMGs constituting half of radiology residents at St Barnabas, I calculate more like 23%. Not bad, but definitely not "half," and only one of them is from the Caribbean to boot.

http://www.sbhcs.com/education/radiology/residentFellows.htm

I'd assume this number is about the same if not lower for Beth Israel. I've no doubt the 50% thing could be true about path or even gas, as TRAMD said.

 

[da8s0859q]

I agree. Look again at what I wrote:

"Where you go to school is VERY important. Programs have a strong preference for US MD over carib MD and a slight preference for US MD over US DO. There is, of course, also some preference given based on which US MD school you attend."

The first two sentences relate to US MD vs DO or carib. There is far less difference between different US schools and any preference probably only exists if the PD or interviewer has ties to the school or if it is Johns-Hopkins, Harvard, etc.

What I meant to say was, "I'm a ****** that didn't correctly read the post to which I was responding."

 

[Tired]

Whether you think it is fair or not, I hope the U.S. Medical Students here who is read this remembers that students like me, who are intelligent, hard-working, and highly-motivated in medical school, might in fact out compete some of you for a competitive residency.

Possible, but not likely.

My favorite part was, "I plan on graduating in 4 years." You have a lot of classmates who are "planning" on taking longer? That's an option at your school?

 

[caribstudent07]

Possible, but not likely.

Exactly. Its not a sure thing. There is far more risk in attending a school in the Caribbean. I will never be able to say that I should get a top-notch residency because of the school I attend. This just gives me added motivation to work extra hard. I know I am an underdog.

My favorite part was, "I plan on graduating in 4 years."

As far as the 4 year statement I made, after reading it again, I can see you presume that I meant that I might end up taking longer. In actuality, at my current pace, I might finish in 3.5 years, but the reason I am planning on 4 is that I do not want to risk the quality of my work by trying to finish too quickly.

You have a lot of classmates who are "planning" on taking longer? That's an option at your school?

Fortunately, whether you like it or not, how long or how quickly any of my classmates finish up is not a concern for me, just as it might not be a concern to you how many schools in the U.S allows their students to decel.

I once had a roommate who had to repeat 2nd year med school, and this was a student attending a US program. So I guess taking more than 4 years is an option in some US programs too, although not as common.

But at the end of the day, if I have superior board scores, LORs, and interviews, my chances will be much stronger!!!

 

[alwayshopeful]

I really don't think your MCAT scores are going to have anything to do with what kind of doctor you are. All of the basic science knowledge in the world doesn't translate into clinical competency.

 

[TRAMD]

But at the end of the day, if I have superior board scores, LORs, and interviews, my chances will be much stronger!!!

You really have no other choice than to be so confident. If you believe you will fail, you will. If you believe you will succeed, that might just happen. Carib students do in fact match with competitive residencies but in far lower percentages than US MD students. A student from a carib school with outstanding board scores and a high GPA is going to be perceived by residencies about the same as an US MD with average to below average in both. So yes, carib students can out-compete lower scoring US MD students in some instances; they just have to work much harder. I wish you luck and am proud that you are achieving success and believing in yourself.

 

[Northerner]

I really don't think your MCAT scores are going to have anything to do with what kind of doctor you are. All of the basic science knowledge in the world doesn't translate into clinical competency.

How trite.

No one has ever ever ever ever suggested MCAT scores predict what kind of doctor you're going to be. They DO, however, measure what kind of a student you are, how good of a test-taker you are, and how good your basic science background was, in a standardized way. And I've got news for you - succeeding in medical school requires a strong student, a good test-taker, with at least a bit of a knack for science. I guarantee a med student's grade in embryo (or USMLE sub-score) has absolutely no correlation with what kind of clinician they become, but they're still required to take it and, yes, pass it by demonstrating they understand it at a minimum level. Should we cut it out of the curriculum since the impact on "clinical competency" is practically non-existent? No.

You hear premeds explain away deficiencies with BS excuses like, "oh, I know the material, I'm just a bad test-taker" as if it's some sort of reprieve. I think "I have test anxiety" is the most ridiculous one, personally, they say it like it's a disease or something. What are you going to do when you're on the wards and an attending pimps you? Hand them a note from your shrink informing them you aren't responsible for spouting off the sequelae associated with lupus because it makes you anxious? Sorry, but unless you're so blatantly smart and capable that you get into Yale (which doesn't have required exams), you're going to have to be good at taking tests to pass your courses, and even then, you still have to pass the USMLE, which is the biggest exam of your life. And you will have to be a good test taker (i.e. do well on the USMLE) to even get INTO more competitive fields.

So while OF COURSE the MCAT doesn't predict "what kind of doctor you're going to be" (good/bad), it's ridiculous to say therefore it means nothing. Keep in mind there are plenty of applicants who have everything the lower-scoring (but good in every other way) students have....personality, character, leadership, work ethic, etc.....but DID do well or reasonably well on the MCAT. It's not like clinical competency and MCAT score are inversely related. And you're nuts if you think a solid basic science foundation doesn't help your clinical competency.

 

[45408]

How trite.

No one has ever ever ever ever suggested MCAT scores predict what kind of doctor you're going to be. They DO, however, measure what kind of a student you are, how good of a test-taker you are, and how good your basic science background was, in a standardized way. And I've got news for you - succeeding in medical school requires a strong student, a good test-taker, with at least a bit of a knack for science. I guarantee a med student's grade in embryo (or USMLE sub-score) has absolutely no correlation with what kind of clinician they become, but they're still required to take it and, yes, pass it by demonstrating they understand it at a minimum level. Should we cut it out of the curriculum since the impact on "clinical competency" is practically non-existent? No.

You hear premeds explain away deficiencies with BS excuses like, "oh, I know the material, I'm just a bad test-taker" as if it's some sort of reprieve. I think "I have test anxiety" is the most ridiculous one, personally, they say it like it's a disease or something. What are you going to do when you're on the wards and an attending pimps you? Hand them a note from your shrink informing them you aren't responsible for spouting off the sequelae associated with lupus because it makes you anxious? Sorry, but unless you're so blatantly smart and capable that you get into Yale (which doesn't have required exams), you're going to have to be good at taking tests to pass your courses, and even then, you still have to pass the USMLE, which is the biggest exam of your life. And you will have to be a good test taker (i.e. do well on the USMLE) to even get INTO more competitive fields.

So while OF COURSE the MCAT doesn't predict "what kind of doctor you're going to be" (good/bad), it's ridiculous to say therefore it means nothing. Keep in mind there are plenty of applicants who have everything the lower-scoring (but good in every other way) students have....personality, character, leadership, work ethic, etc.....but DID do well or reasonably well on the MCAT. It's not like clinical competency and MCAT score are inversely related. And you're nuts if you think a solid basic science foundation doesn't help your clinical competency.

tsk tsk, you know that's blasphemy here on SDN (even though everyone has a 38 or higher).

 

[alwayshopeful]

How trite.

No one has ever ever ever ever suggested MCAT scores predict what kind of doctor you're going to be. They DO, however, measure what kind of a student you are, how good of a test-taker you are, and how good your basic science background was, in a standardized way. And I've got news for you - succeeding in medical school requires a strong student, a good test-taker, with at least a bit of a knack for science. I guarantee a med student's grade in embryo (or USMLE sub-score) has absolutely no correlation with what kind of clinician they become, but they're still required to take it and, yes, pass it by demonstrating they understand it at a minimum level. Should we cut it out of the curriculum since the impact on "clinical competency" is practically non-existent? No.

You hear premeds explain away deficiencies with BS excuses like, "oh, I know the material, I'm just a bad test-taker" as if it's some sort of reprieve. I think "I have test anxiety" is the most ridiculous one, personally, they say it like it's a disease or something. What are you going to do when you're on the wards and an attending pimps you? Hand them a note from your shrink informing them you aren't responsible for spouting off the sequelae associated with lupus because it makes you anxious? Sorry, but unless you're so blatantly smart and capable that you get into Yale (which doesn't have required exams), you're going to have to be good at taking tests to pass your courses, and even then, you still have to pass the USMLE, which is the biggest exam of your life. And you will have to be a good test taker (i.e. do well on the USMLE) to even get INTO more competitive fields.

So while OF COURSE the MCAT doesn't predict "what kind of doctor you're going to be" (good/bad), it's ridiculous to say therefore it means nothing. Keep in mind there are plenty of applicants who have everything the lower-scoring (but good in every other way) students have....personality, character, leadership, work ethic, etc.....but DID do well or reasonably well on the MCAT. It's not like clinical competency and MCAT score are inversely related. And you're nuts if you think a solid basic science foundation doesn't help your clinical competency.

Let me clarify: my point was that "top 20" seemed a bit preoccupied with the MCAT and then extrapolated the score into clinical competency. The MCAT has it's place. However, if I were going to really be concerned about any score that my personal physician had recieved, it would be their specialty boards score. I wouldn't be concerned if my orthopaedic surgeon can't recite all of the steps in the Krebs cycle, as long as he can competently fix my compound fracture. In order to do that, he will need practical experience as well as book knowledge. I never said that basic sciences do not help your clinical competency. They obviously do. My simple point was that Good MCAT score does not a good doctor make and that "top 20" is a bit short sighted. If he graduates from his prestigious school with he good marks, does well on the wards, and kicks butt on Step I and II he has nothing to worry about from all of those "FMGs" who probably got higher boards scores than he will get.

 

[TRAMD]

Keep in mind there are plenty of applicants who have everything the lower-scoring (but good in every other way) students have....personality, character, leadership, work ethic, etc.....but DID do well or reasonably well on the MCAT. It's not like clinical competency and MCAT score are inversely related.

Great point. It does seem that many people seem to think that one cannot do well on tests AND have the qualities you listed above. I guess if someone does poorly on a test it is blatantly obvious that they are below others in that area and they desperately need to find other more subjective areas where they believe they are superior . . . but probably usually aren't. It is not as if there is a set amount of skill that people have and some put more into certain areas . . . some people simply have more to put into more areas. Darn those people!

 

[caribstudent07]

A student from a carib school with outstanding board scores and a high GPA is going to be perceived by residencies about the same as an US MD with average to below average in both.

It really depends on the residency program as to the variance in stats between US medical school graduates and Caribbean graduates. For some residency programs that have a history of working with IMGs, you might find the difference between both groups to be marginal. For programs that rarely select IMGs, you will likely see a much larger variance in stats.

Conversly, if you are a US medical student applying to a program that also selects IMGs, you might NOT be able to automatically count on getting preferential treatment.

Below I have included links to the residency appointments from the big 4 Caribbean schools (from students who reported) Overall, some impressive placements.

St. Georges: http://www.sgu.edu/ERD/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

Ross: http://www.rossu.edu/med/whyross/recordachieve_041.cfm#2007

AUC: http://www.aucmed.edu/alumni/alumres.htm

Saba: http://www.saba.edu/residency_match.php

 

[TRAMD]

It really depends on the residency program as to the variance in stats between US medical school graduates and Caribbean graduates. For some residency programs that have a history of working with IMGs, you might find the difference between both groups to be marginal. For programs that rarely select IMGs, you will likely see a much larger variance in stats.

Conversly, if you are a US medical student applying to a program that also selects IMGs, you might NOT be able to automatically count on getting preferential treatment.

Below I have included links to the residency appointments from the big 4 Caribbean schools (from students who reported) Overall, some impressive placements.

St. Georges: http://www.sgu.edu/ERD/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

Ross: http://www.rossu.edu/med/whyross/recordachieve_041.cfm#2007

AUC: http://www.aucmed.edu/alumni/alumres.htm

Saba: [URL="http://www.saba.edu/residency_match.php"]http://www.saba.edu/residency_match.php[/URL]

It is late so I didn't have time to look through them all. I did look at St. George's (most reputable of the Carib schools) for most recent year and certainly was NOT impressed. Out of what had to have been almost 400 students there were 3 that impressed me. Two for Ortho and one for Radiology. These are the only truly competitive residencies that anyone on this list got into. Looking through this list I realize that I actually OVERestimated how competitive carib students are. There were a decent number of Anes, surgery and EM but these are average in competitiveness and there are many essentially non-competitive programs in each. My school is a small state school with 50 per class. At about 1/8 the students (heck, I'll give you 1/6 to be nice) that would mean that to be comparable we should have had 0-1 students match in highly competitive specialties. We had 2 ortho, 1 radiology, 2 derm, 1 urology and 1 ophthalmology. That is 7 students. An equivalently competitive class from SGU would have had 40-50 students matching in highly competitive specialties, not 3. Once again, I come from a small, non-prestigious state school in the midwest. Maybe I will check out some of the other lists another time. I am still in shock at how pathetic the numbers are.

So I was curious so I looked at current years for the other schools and how many students got into highly competitive specialties:

SGU: 3 out of around 300+ or <1%
Ross: 4 (all in radiology) out of about 300 students or 1.33%
AUC: 2 (radiology and neurosurgery--very impressive) out of 149 students or 1.34%
SABA: 1 (ortho) out of about 90 or 1.11%
My state school: 7 out of 50 or 14%
Nationwide US MDs: 2115 out of 13263 or 15.94% (this includes only specialties in the main match and I am figuring highly competitive specialties to be Derm, Ortho, ENT, plastics, rad onc and radiology--neurosurg, urology and I believe ophthalmology have separate matches but are also highly competitive specialties.)

It should also be noted that although gen surg is not a highly competitive specialty in itself, a prelim year in surgery is far less competitive and many of the residents matching to "surgery" are matching to a prelim year and not necessarily to a complete surgery residency. . . a very easy feat.

 

[TRAMD]

Conversly, if you are a US medical student applying to a program that also selects IMGs, you might NOT be able to automatically count on getting preferential treatment.

I forgot this before . . .

Are you sure you aren't a troll? The totally misinformed content of your posts and the low post count are suspicious.

 

[caribstudent07]

I forgot this before . . .

Are you sure you aren't a troll? The totally misinformed content of your posts and the low post count are suspicious.

I think that you, unfortunatly, are tyring to bash me...and Caribbean Schools, and you are missing my main point, which is that individually, it does not matter to me, or to a highly motivated colleuges of mine, as to the averages. Do you think it really mattered to the MD who placed in Neurosurgery as to how many of his/her peers matched where insofar as to how it affected his/her appointment?

If a prospective student asked me for advice, after being accepted to both a Caribbean School and a U.S medical School, I would ALWAYS recommend that they attend the U.S. program - US Schools offer the best opportunity. Period. I can not, and I have not, ever represented that the averages at Caribbean programs are superior to or even equal to any U.S. medical school.

What I can say is that I have found my training thus far, to be outstanding, and that students who work hard and are highly motivated in the big 4 programs can compete, and they do compete, with US medical school graduates.

 

[doctorsartorius]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

You know for someone who claims to attend a Top 20 medical school you sure are very immature and undoubtedly have entitlement issues. Your notion of all carribean schools as subpar and allowing anyone in are woefully inaccurate, as Ross, SGU, and AUC are on a par with US medical education. Only 1 out of 8 applicants is accepted to SGU and the first time pass rate for the step 1 fluctuates yearly at around 90%+.

On a scale from 1 to 10, I would judge your rant a zero.

 

[TRAMD]

I think that you, unfortunatly, are tyring to bash me...and Caribbean Schools, and you are missing my main point, which is that individually, it does not matter to me, or to a highly motivated colleuges of mine, as to the averages. Do you think it really mattered to the MD who placed in Neurosurgery as to how many of his/her peers matched where insofar as to how it affected his/her appointment?

If a prospective student asked me for advice, after being accepted to both a Caribbean School and a U.S medical School, I would ALWAYS recommend that they attend the U.S. program - US Schools offer the best opportunity. Period. I can not, and I have not, ever represented that the averages at Caribbean programs are superior to or even equal to any U.S. medical school.

What I can say is that I have found my training thus far, to be outstanding, and that students who work hard and are highly motivated in the big 4 programs can compete, and they do compete, with US medical school graduates.

Fair enough. [offers hand to shake]

 

[flindophile]

You know for someone who claims to attend a Top 20 medical school you sure are very immature and undoubtedly have entitlement issues. Your notion of all carribean schools as subpar and allowing anyone in are woefully inaccurate, as Ross, SGU, and AUC are on a par with US medical education. Only 1 out of 8 applicants is accepted to SGU and the first time pass rate for the step 1 fluctuates yearly at around 90%+.

On a scale from 1 to 10, I would judge your rant a zero.

You are using the same logic as amherstguy: that the quality of education is determined by the selectivity of the school. Thus, you point to entrance stats in an attempt to demonstrate that the carib schools are OK. This is missing the point.

Amherstguy is right: almost anyone can get into medical school these days. So what?

The entrance stats don't matter as long as the carib schools are able to consistently produce doctors who can practice medicine competently. It may be the case that the attrition rate is high, but so what? It is the outcomes that matter. It is well known that the carib students (SGU included) are generally less academically qualified that US students. So what? Students at University of Kansas are less academically qualified than students at Stanford. But does this mean we should sound the alarm about inferior graduates coming out of Kansas? Everybody focuses on admissions stats because they are easily accessible and for the status they confer to those who went to selective schools. The real question is whether those who go to less selective schools are unfit to practice medicine. Once again, is there any evidence that those who go to carib schools are unfit to practice medicine? There is little question that carib students are generally less academically qualified. But, at the end of training, does the initial difference in academic ability translate to a clinically important difference in patient outcomes? If you were blinded, could you tell a carib trained doctor from a US trained doctor?

The important question is whether carib grads can practice medicine competently. I don't know the answer, but given that USIMGs constitute roughly 10% of the match, many organizations have had experience with USIMGs and it seems that they have acheived broad acceptance.

It is most unfortunate that the influx of USIMGs has tarnished the prestige of medicine. But there is still hope! Perhaps Amherstguy can find solace in becoming a dermatologist.

 

[TRAMD]

I have probably appeared too negative about caribbean students. I think that the schools do terrible things to some people by allowing them into school, charging them outrageous tuition and not always guaranteeing them a clinical or residency spot. They give deceptive statistics on their website that gives false hope to many. People put up with this due to their dream to be a doctor. As far as the graduates of caribbean schools? I find them and other IMGs to be vital to the healthcare of our country and welcome them home/to the US.

 

[ydobon]

Watch out, it's not a done deal. If you want the top spot, you'll have to fight for it every day of your life. Or someone younger, smarter, and harder will take it from you.

 

[IckeyShuffle]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

amherst sucks..... go ephs!

 

[cbass1350]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

If you cry some more, you might get more appreciation.

 

[Doctor J]

It's not like clinical competency and MCAT score are inversely related.

Very good point. I see this misconception in more common usage often when I hear someone described as 'book smart only'. As though intelligence was so constrained as to be unusable in the 'real' world.

Ridiculous. Patently false, really.

 

[ekimsurfer]

Keep this a secret everyone, but I've heard *gasp* not even all U.S. medical students pass their boards

NBME = National Board of Medical Examiners
USMLE = United States Medical Licensing Exam

Pass it, and you've got the knowledge to get going as a doctor.

WHAT? Who was going to tell me about this???

 

[IVIG]

Be careful when choosing any medical school. When I was applying to medical school, I looked at the hospitals and facilities and thought about what patient experiences I would have. All good, but the more important thing is how well the medical school will support you in achieving the residency of your choice (and prepare you to practice that specialty well). This means giving you decent time to prepare for the USMLE, teaching relevant material during medical school, having little nepotism/corruption with regards to leadership and research opportunities, giving you adequate time to do research and pursue unique opportunities (MPH, PhD, international medicine experience). All that you can stand out from the rest.

My medical school was not very supportive. Granted they lacked a lot of funding in comparison to other medical schools, but they were very inflexible in their schedules. For example, they required us to take the Step I and Step II before advancing to the next year, which essentially gave us 2 weeks to study for each. Very few of my classmates scored greater than a 90. During the 1st two years, a majority of the exams were not based on relevant material (that is, they did not reflect what you would see on the USMLE or come across in clinical practice). So you spent all your time studying irrelevant things to pass your classes. Research opportunities were few and there was no time to do it. The practical ward experience was excellent though, but again not much time to prepare for the USMLE 2 because you had overnight call and really worked as hard as the interns (with the usual scut). And finally, we were not allowed any time off to go to conferences to present cases, even if we scrounged up one on our own. Also because of all the 4th year requirements, we had limited space for away rotations. I think my medical school's thought process was that because it had an average reputation, by making it very tough for their students, their reputation would improve. I'm not saying they should inflate grades or make tests easier, but they should do a better job in including more relevant information on the tests so that after you finish your 1st 2 years, you could pass Step 1 without studying, and with a lot of studying, you can crush them. Also they should be more flexible in the schedule.

Please take all this into consideration when choosing a medical school.


I lucked out and ended up at a wonderful IM program (with an excellent medical school) and then realized what a top notch medical school should be like!

Many Caribbean schools allow you to study and learn at your own pace and you can take time off for USMLE prep courses, and take the USMLE when you want. Additionally, there is flexibility to do research during medical school. Those are huge advantages for getting residency spots and may overshadow the bias against students from the Caribbean medical schools.

I would say, if coming out of college, you are a weak student overall, you don't have much of a choice in medical schools, and you will not do well at any medical school. If you are a stronger student, but screwed up in the numbers game once, you are probably better off going to a Caribbean school that provides this type of support over a weak US school that does not allow its student to "stand out."

 

[jon stewart]

If a prospective student asked me for advice, after being accepted to both a Caribbean School and a U.S medical School, I would ALWAYS recommend that they attend the U.S. program - US Schools offer the best opportunity. Period. I can not, and I have not, ever represented that the averages at Caribbean programs are superior to or even equal to any U.S. medical school.

you got into both, then why did you go to the carrib? unless you got into a DO school and you wanted a MD degree? I dont see why you would have turned down a US MD spot. Tuition at the islands is crazy too.

how many times did you try to get into US MD programs? again i am assuming you didnt get into a US MD school.

Ahmersguy, i understand your view. But don't pool eastern Europe and Caribbean schools with graduates of medical programs in countries like england, australia, germany (not that you mentioned these countries). There are excellent, bright doctors that come out of these medical establishments in these countries. Not to mention the difficulty of entering medicine in these countries. Remeber that some IMGs do come from other places than the Caribbean.

 

[Coastie]

The UK's acceptance (and the EU, for that fact) of foreigner's in med is quickly waning, especially in the best fields. I know many a UK registrar (MRCP, even!) who came over to the US because they were forever stalled in training due to their middle eastern, asian, etc. background.

Jon,

I have a friend with a Cambridge medical degree (MBChB), middle of her class, high USMLE scores, who didn't match this year. I forget which specialty. Her impressions were that *any* medical school outside the US, no matter how prestigious and reputed, are discriminated against. She has since given up and is serving as a house officer before trying for a local residency position.

My Singaporean medical friends won't even bother trying for American slots because the system makes it too hard for them to get accepted. Plus, they get an automatic full registration to practice in the UK, so why would they want to go to the US? The UK is far more accepting of foreign talent than America is, at least in the medical arena.

 

[Coastie]

The US govt funds residents. We shouldnt treat countries as "states of the U.S." America has the BEST GME system. Let's keep the talent inside America the best we can.

Hi Northerner,

If we consider physicians on their merit alone, FMGs are generally outstanding individuals with distinguished backgrounds just like American medical graduates. A few have problems with English, granted, but are no slouches when it comes down to the science and medicine.

It's easy to be biased against FMGs when you hear about so-called less qualified applicants going off to the Caribbean to get their degree -- but like GreenShirt posted earlier, there are medical schools outside the United States with much richer histories, much more accomplished alumni, and far tougher admissions standards than any in the US.

A country can choose to accept its own first, sure. It wouldn't be merit-based though, which is what most programs should strive towards. The most qualified should get positions, not the most American.

I don't think many US medical students would like it if residency programs only accepted people from their own medical school program, or in-state programs. The system we currently have treats all Americans equally regardless of their state or program. All that I'm asking is you take it to the next logical step and extend equal consideration to EVERY applicant regardless of their COUNTRY or program.

Now, why would a fine physician want to leave their own country and come to the United States? First of all, who are we as a people to prevent them the liberty to choose where they wish to live and practice? We don't force physicians coming out of Idaho to stay in their state and deprive Idaho of their fine doctors, do we? America is a nation founded on civil liberty and if they're not happy living and learning in Idaho, so be it.

And who says FMGs are here to stay? Many come here for residency training because American residency programs have many of the leaders in a given clinical field, but not all of them want to remain here. I met a surgical attending who trained at Hopkins and now practices in Penang, Malaysia. You may see this as depriving the United States of one less excellent surgeon -- a waste of a residency slot, perhaps -- but I see this as a person now able to educate thousands of Malaysian medical students and residents who wouldn't otherwise have received a comparable medical education.

This post is lengthy; my gist is to treat countries as states, and to consider whether we want a merit-based or nationality-based residency system to decide who gets to practice medicine.

 

[med_heidelberg]

you got into both, then why did you go to the carrib? unless you got into a DO school and you wanted a MD degree? I dont see why you would have turned down a US MD spot. Tuition at the islands is crazy too.

how many times did you try to get into US MD programs? again i am assuming you didnt get into a US MD school.

Ahmersguy, i understand your view. But don't pool eastern Europe and Caribbean schools with graduates of medical programs in countries like england, australia, germany (not that you mentioned these countries). There are excellent, bright doctors that come out of these medical establishments in these countries. Not to mention the difficulty of entering medicine in these countries. Remeber that some IMGs do come from other places than the Caribbean.

Exactly ... the chances a foreigner gets admission to a German university are about 3-5%. The competition is pretty fierce.

 

[amherstguy]

you guys have no idea what you are talking about. some guy at my gym just got into a carib school despite being convicted for assault and battery a few years ago. another guy just got in after transfering from 4 community colleges. the point is that these schools only accept people who can pay...they dont give a **** if you are a criminal, or horrible student or whatever. the fact that they dont interview their students pretty much bolsters my point. the easy as hell standards of carribbean schools and eastern european schools (such as in poland), will flood the US market with an oversupply of physicians in the next few years- people who WOULD NOT get into a US allopathic school. US schools, whether MD or DO have standards- albeit the DO standards are low (thats another story)- at least there are standards. carribbean schools are there just to give dumb rich kids MD's. these schools do not seek to balance a class or get underep. minorities into medicine- they are filled to the brim with south asians and asian-americans; groups that are overly represented in medicine. this is ludicrous- i for one believe that future US MD's should petition the AAMC and AMA to bar such people from practicing medicine in the US.

 

[jon stewart]

yea you are right in some regards. Some of the students at the carrib schools are there because they are couldn't hack it here. Whether is it due to criminal records or or because they fooled around during undergrad. Yes some rich kids do go to the carrib and have mom and dad pay for it. Yes it may seem that they are getting the easier way out and such standards as these should have no place in American health care. But at the end of the day, these poeple like all other us grads will be sitting the same exam the usmle. I am leaving out the DO because we can already have too much to focus on. The battle they will face once they get here isnt one thats easy. They will have to likely work harder for thier shortcomings earlier on in order to get into residencys too. While it seems family practice is basically a safe choice, if they are aiming for other specialties it may be a diff story. I don't know much about criminals and residency's, but the guy at the gym who is criminal may be able to get into a carrib school, but once that person hits the US shores i dont think that they will have it any easier with a criminal record.

Also look at the websites of many hospitals, you will find many IMG's who are excelling in their fields.

Look at this doc. He went to MED school in jamaica

http://www.samhealth.org/find_a_physician/providerinfo.html?index=655&i=21946274795668&

Look at his credentials, he is a very competent and excelling physician. Not everyone who ends up here in medicine as had it easier than anyone else. Everyone has worked hard and put a lot of effort and guts into it. I understand that yes, some doctors from other countries may not be as competent and they may pass the baords and end up being docs. There are a few bad apples, but the majority are excellent. To go as far as to ban them from entering the US, who knows. There are bad apples in every profession.

and for those of you that watch family guy, he reminds me of clevland...haha

Just my thoughts.

 

[lilzelda2]

I thought before u get ur liscence u have to undergo a criminal background check???So wouldn't this dude have problems getting his liscences even if he completes medical school?? Also some carib schools do require inteviews like Ross and SGU.

I like how one of your points is that theres going to be an oversupply of doctors in the next coming yrs when projections don't really show that...IMG's and DO's play a big role in the medical field, without IMG's there would be less people going into primary care a field thats currently suffering...

U need to get off ur pedestal because professionalism is becoming a big deal, and if u talk to a nurse like that especially in NY she'll knock u out and then refer u to OPMC....

 

[Blade28]

I thought before u get ur liscence u have to undergo a criminal background check???So wouldn't this dude have problems getting his liscences even if he completes medical school??

True...when applying for a state medical license, the state board will do a thorough background check.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Heck, the apartment I just rented in Scottsdale did a criminal check (guess its some sort of selling point not to allow felons there), let alone the medical licensing board. Its becoming common place these days.

 

[caribstudent07]

you guys have no idea what you are talking about. some guy at my gym just got into a carib school despite being convicted for assault and battery a few years ago. another guy just got in after transfering from 4 community colleges. the point is that these schools only accept people who can pay...they dont give a **** if you are a criminal, or horrible student or whatever. the fact that they dont interview their students pretty much bolsters my point. the easy as hell standards of carribbean schools and eastern european schools (such as in poland), will flood the US market with an oversupply of physicians in the next few years- people who WOULD NOT get into a US allopathic school. US schools, whether MD or DO have standards- albeit the DO standards are low (thats another story)- at least there are standards. carribbean schools are there just to give dumb rich kids MD's. these schools do not seek to balance a class or get underep. minorities into medicine- they are filled to the brim with south asians and asian-americans; groups that are overly represented in medicine. this is ludicrous- i for one believe that future US MD's should petition the AAMC and AMA to bar such people from practicing medicine in the US.

I think I do know what I am speaking about since I do attend a Caribbean school.

There may be some differences between students in the States and Students in the Caribbean, one thing for sure that is NOT different, based on your comments, is that there are lots of complainers and whiners at both.

Beyond your whining, complaining, your comments are outright offensive to a number of cultures and people, and if you are concerned about the quality of medicine, the best way I can think of to improve the ranks of Physicians would be for you to give up your spot in school to someone who has more respect for people from different cultures.

While you are busy petitioning the AMA, you might also want to poll the Attendings and Residents that will be training you at your local University Hospital to find out how many of have been educated outside of the US. Some of the answers you get might surprise you.

One thing that confuses a lot of people, including medical students, is that the entities responsible for educating students in the U.S. (LCME) and the entities responsible for licensure are completely separate. Getting into medical school, and becoming licensed to practice medicine are two different things.

Just like there are different standards and quality of schools in the States, so to are there differences in the Caribbean. I can not comment on every school down here, but I can say that overall, the students who succeed at my school are hard-working, good-natured people.

My school (but not all schools in the Caribbean) is accredited in all 50 states, which means when I finish, I will be able to practice anywhere in America. If you are worried about the extra competition, then great, because I plan on competing with a lot of U.S. grads, including you.

 

[osli]

Sounds like amherstguy just has an ego problem, being at a "top 20" school and all. Doesn't want others impeding on his hard fought territory. European and Carribean schools are just easy targets... after we have taken care of that little problem, we should move on to reversing legislation allowing equal practice rights for DO's, right? Then we can get down to the really important stuff, like revoking accreditation of all those "lower tier" schools that just accept crappy students that didn't study their asses off to pull a 4.0 and 35+ MCAT. No one wants a doctor that made a B in an easy-peasy undergrad class, much less was just "average" on the almighty MCAT.

Right?

 

[johankriek]

Heck, the apartment I just rented in Scottsdale did a criminal check (guess its some sort of selling point not to allow felons there), let alone the medical licensing board. Its becoming common place these days.

what are you doing in scottsdale.. i thought you were in central NJ. what are you doing a breast fellowship out in az.....

all apts building has to do to keep the riff raff out is to make a minimum salary cut off.. that will do the trick

 

[johankriek]

. the easy as hell standards of carribbean schools and eastern european schools (such as in poland), will flood the US market with an oversupply of physicians in the next few years- .

I doubt this will ever ever happen.. the amount of physicians retiring or thinking about retiring every year regardless of age.. is astounding...

 

[Bluemirage]

you guys have no idea what you are talking about. some guy at my gym just got into a carib school despite being convicted for assault and battery a few years ago. another guy just got in after transfering from 4 community colleges. the point is that these schools only accept people who can pay...they dont give a **** if you are a criminal, or horrible student or whatever. the fact that they dont interview their students pretty much bolsters my point. the easy as hell standards of carribbean schools and eastern european schools (such as in poland), will flood the US market with an oversupply of physicians in the next few years- people who WOULD NOT get into a US allopathic school. US schools, whether MD or DO have standards- albeit the DO standards are low (thats another story)- at least there are standards. carribbean schools are there just to give dumb rich kids MD's. these schools do not seek to balance a class or get underep. minorities into medicine- they are filled to the brim with south asians and asian-americans; groups that are overly represented in medicine. this is ludicrous- i for one believe that future US MD's should petition the AAMC and AMA to bar such people from practicing medicine in the US.

Damn! This is a radical generalization based upon your "personal experiences" with a sample of n=2. I would like to see you talk to well respected docs like Stephew in the radiation oncology forum about this. She completed her residency in radiation oncology at Johns Hopkins(competitiveness on par with derm and plastics) and is now an attending at Harvard. She is an SGU grad. Attendings like her maybe interviewing you one day come residency time. I would be interested to witness your opinions about IMG's then. Students have many different reasons for going to a carribean school. As others have already mentioned, many are just as bright as U.S. medical students but because of the "crap shoot" nature of admissions, they did not get in. Bottom line...if they can score well enough in the USMLE to overcome the existing bias against them in the residency match process, and still get in, then they deserve to practice medicine in the U.S. Why can't you just be satisfied and relieved that you got into a great medical school in the US and did not have to take such a hard road to realize your dreams? i.e. Stop worrying about others and use the extra time for your own studies.

 

[Tired]

Damn! This is a radical generalization based upon your "personal experiences" with a sample of n=2. I would like to see you talk to well respected docs like Stephew in the radiation oncology forum about this. She completed her residency in radiation oncology at Johns Hopkins(competitiveness on par with derm and plastics) and is now an attending at Harvard. She is an SGU grad.

I'm always amused by people like you. You rip on his/her "n of 2", then utilize the powerful come-back known as the "n of 1". Way to go there!

As others have already mentioned, many are just as bright as U.S. medical students but because of the "crap shoot" nature of admissions, they did not get in.

Yes, completely random, not based on merit at all . . .

 

[deleted29780]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

YOU ARE A FU***** US CITIZEN , YOU HAVE THE BEST OPTIONS DURING YOUR RESIDENCY. STOP FUMMING AND GROW UP, YOU ARE ACTING LIKE A NUMSKULL.

 

[Instatewaiter]

YOU ARE A FU***** US CITIZEN , YOU HAVE THE BEST OPTIONS DURING YOUR RESIDENCY. STOP FUMMING AND GROW UP, YOU ARE ACTING LIKE A NUMSKULL.

I NEED TO GET MY POINT ACROSS BY USING ALL CAPS! I AM ACTUALLY SCREAMING AT THE COMPUTER SCREEN!

 

[45408]

I'm always amused by people like you. You rip on his/her "n of 2", then utilize the powerful come-back known as the "n of 1". Way to go there!

I have a feeling that this irony will be lost on that poster.

 

[Winged Scapula]

what are you doing in scottsdale.. i thought you were in central NJ. what are you doing a breast fellowship out in az.....

I am done with my fellowship in NJ and have taken a job as an attending out in Scottsdale (although technically I am still in NJ while getting my stuff ready to move out to Az in a couple of weeks).

all apts building has to do to keep the riff raff out is to make a minimum salary cut off.. that will do the trick

Depends on your definition of "riff raff". There are plenty of felons who make good money...and would make the salary cut-off. Anyway, the complex gave the example that "Martha Stewart" couldn't live there because she wouldn't pass the background check.

Ehh..not so worried about Martha...more worried about the likes of OJ Simpson or a sexual predator. Now I see that Kevin Federline is hanging out at clubs in Scottsdale. That is even MORE worrisome.

 

[johankriek]

more worried about the likes of OJ Simpson :

oh cmon dont diss the JUICE.

 

[Bluemirage]

I'm always amused by people like you. You rip on his/her "n of 2", then utilize the powerful come-back known as the "n of 1". Way to go there! ...Yes, completely random, not based on merit at all . . .

Fine....you got me there...so I didn't bother to get the match lists and type out each and every name of these people who successfully matched into US residencies from international schools (n=800+). And I also did not bother pulling up every single medical school faculty page to list all the IMG's that are professors at highly regarded academic programs.You get my point...all of these folks passed the USMLE and in some cases performed extremely well and jumped through the necessary hurdles and biases against them to get into US programs.

No need to get so defensive. My statement was not aimed at taking away your merits in getting into a US allo program. (I am a US allo student myself). I never said that each and everyone of them got screwed by the random nature of the process. I'm sure a whole lot of them got there because of the "merit" they failed to demonstrate....please go read what I had typed...I said "many." I'm sure you know people that had similar stats to yourself and are just as capable that did not get in during their first application cycle for some strange reason.

My whole point: US students that had to resort to attending international schools for whatever reason have had to endure a much harder road than us to perform well on the USMLE and get through medical school. If they can demonstrate this, then why shouldn't they be allowed to come back to practice here? Judging by the willingness of programs to take them, I'm sure there are plenty of spots available for everyone.

 

[nshams]

Well, truth be told, I'd wager that most of the American kiddies going into Carribean medschools had giant problems during Undergrad.

I'm applying to US Medschools right now & I'm quite realistic about my chances 'cus I was one of those people who don't have any excuses about my GPA. I have a 2.7 GPA to show for it. On top of all that, I started out with a 4.0 GPA in undergrad & took a giant nose-dive in junior & senior year. My July MCAT was a 35. & things only get worse for me 'cus I'm an F1 student in US (that's international student for all you lucky people who've never had to deal with this unfortunateness).

Every Dean or Advisor I've spoken to just wants to know why the hell I screwed up as bad as I did during undergrad. I'm labelled as smart but lazy & I can't think of any worse impression you could give to a Dean of a medschool. But I don't think I should have to pay for the rest of my life for mistakes I made when I was 21.

Another girl I know from my country who finished USMLE this year (FMG), ranked at the very top of the USMLE list. It didn't matter that she graduated from a two-bit medschool in some Indian-subcontinent country. Fact is, she got her act together well enough to beat down all your top-20 school compadres when it came down to the one thing that can level students out in residencies. She's doing her residency in Ob/Gyn right now.

I'm smart enough to handle medschool & I sure as hell can't think of ANYTHING else I'd rather do over practicing medicine. I think I deserve a second chance & Caribbean schools will give it to me. If I have to lock myself into a room for 5months to get a knock-out USMLE, to prove myself, so be it.

 

[Tired]

My whole point: US students that had to resort to attending international schools for whatever reason have had to endure a much harder road than us to perform well on the USMLE and get through medical school. If they can demonstrate this, then why shouldn't they be allowed to come back to practice here? Judging by the willingness of programs to take them, I'm sure there are plenty of spots available for everyone.

I agree with you, if they prove that they have the skills and the programs want them, great, come on back.

My issue with what you (and others) have written, is this notion that people who attend the Carib schools are just as good as US students, that they ended up there because of personal choice or some sort of random screwing by the admissions process. Not so (obviously), and I just wanted to call b*llsh*t.

Look, I'm not too far out on a limb when I say that most Caribbean students would have gone to U.S. schools if they had gotten in. And the reason that most did not get in is that they aren't as good as the people who did.

I know that SDN is all about making everyone feel special, but let's be honest. American students don't move to small islands in the middle of nowhere, pay outraegous tuition, and suffer from bias in the match, unless they have to. This is the truth. Don't be scared of it.