seems just about anyone can get into medical school these days

[TRAMD]

My situation is different. So is yours. To you, an MD was the only way. To me, a DO was the best path.

It's naive to actually think that the MD degree will be the best path in every single circumstance.

No, I'm not lying. I chose DO over MD. There were some classmates of mine that did the same. Granted, I could count them with the fingers of one hand, but there were some that wanted DO over MD. The majority, as you assume, would've most likely preferred to go MD instead.

I just honestly didn't even know DOs existed until my 3rd year.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Shinken]

...and Kirksville COOM (isn't that considered the best DO school?).

No, the best DO school is Ohio University.

 

[TRAMD]

No, the best DO school is Ohio University.

Ok, then put that in its correct place in my sentence.

 

[Meatwad]

This kind of contradicts your earlier post. Now you are saying that you actually have to do better at a DO school to compete with US MD students--something I totally agree with.

I again have nothing to back up my hunch (I'm just being like that today) but I would guess that when you look at success in matching into competitive residencies the difference is less between Hopkins and podunk US MD school than between said podunk US MD school and Kirksville COOM (isn't that considered the best DO school?).

If my post implied you need a 245 vs an MDs 200, than I apologize because I was unclear. That was not what the post stated. I simply wrote that to assume that ones chance wit ha low score is better than a DOs higher score is very naive.

If anything, that goes completely against the point you just made that said you agreed with me. Too many negatives and he-saids he saids?

 

[Meatwad]

No, the best DO school is Ohio University.

The best DO school is the one that teaches medicine and surgery, not how to feel up your classmates in "OMM Lab." It's basically paying to be sexuall abused.

I mean, this would be the selling point for me on MD vs DO schools, but that's just me. I'd claim the most important area of the musculoskeletal system are the breasts. Female breasts, though; not manboobs.

 

[Shinken]

I just honestly didn't even know DOs existed until my 3rd year.

Are you serious?

 

[LadyWolverine]

I'd claim the most important area of the musculoskeletal system are the breasts. Female breasts, though; not manboobs.

 

[Shinken]

The best DO school is the one that teaches medicine and surgery, not how to feel up your classmates in "OMM Lab." It's basically paying to be sexuall abused.

No, it's not sexual abuse. In DO schools it's called "professional touch." (really)

 

[TRAMD]

If my post implied you need a 245 vs an MDs 200, than I apologize because I was unclear. That was not what the post stated. I simply wrote that to assume that ones chance wit ha low score is better than a DOs higher score is very naive.

If anything, that goes completely against the point you just made that said you agreed with me. Too many negatives and he-saids he saids?

I am not sure where any of this is going but I am pretty sure we agree on more than we don't.

 

[TRAMD]

Are you serious?

I am completely serious and my father and several of my family members are MDs. The first DO I encountered was during my third year. I thought MD was the only way to become a physician before that.

I should state that I DO NOT feel that DOs are inferior to MDs as physicians. I just think that due to competitiveness for residency and the hassle of many people not knowing that they are equivalent makes the MD worth it for anyone whom can obtain it.

 

[osli]

I just flat out don't believe anyone who says they were accepted to a US MD school and still went DO.

Very bad form to just flat out call someone a liar. At least I'll know to read your future posts through the correct filter of your character.

 

[TRAMD]

Very bad form to just flat out call someone a liar. At least I'll know to read your future posts through the correct filter of your character.

It is very bad form to lie. I suppose due to misinformation and naivety someone could actually believe that DO is the right choice and would therefore not be lying about their decision. I believe it is far more common that someone wants MD, cannot get into an allopathic school and go DO as a second option even though most DOs will say that they chose DO over MD. I would like to hear from a truly honest DO who says, "I wanted allopathic and tried for it but just didn't have the scores to get accepted. I went DO and am loving it nonetheless." I admire that most DOs will stand up for osteopathic medicine because once you have committed to something you had better believe in it or things might not go so well.

 

[SomeDoc]

It is very bad form to lie. I suppose due to misinformation and naivety someone could actually believe that DO is the right choice and would therefore not be lying about their decision. I believe it is far more common that someone wants MD, cannot get into an allopathic school and go DO as a second option even though most DOs will say that they chose DO over MD. I would like to hear from a truly honest DO who says, "I wanted allopathic and tried for it but just didn't have the scores to get accepted. I went DO and am loving it nonetheless." I admire that most DOs will stand up for osteopathic medicine because once you have committed to something you had better believe in it or things might not go so well.

Not a DO-yet, but had the MCAT scores, undergrad grades, research, volunteering, leadership positions, yadda yadda yadda b.s.. Only applied to DO schools .

 

[SomeDoc]

It all comes down to what's best for you. It all doesn't really matter anyway. Alright, got to get back to studying!

 

[osli]

I suppose due to misinformation and naivety someone could actually believe that DO is the right choice and would therefore not be lying about their decision.

So I'm either a liar, or naive? You're digging a deeper hole buddy. I was very informed about both paths before I made my choice. Read some of the other scattered posts I've written recently, and you'll find that I knew the road to residency would be just a bit harder on the DO path yet still decided that it was the best road overall for me.

To be honest it was my second choice, but it had nothing to do with MD vs. DO. My primary choice was a nearby state school simply for geographic reasons. It happened to be allopathic, could have been osteopathic, location would have trumped all either way. They don't have the best reputation, and may not have made for a particularly easy path to residency either... but it was my first choice. I was rejected there. Once that option was gone I evaluated all the remaining possibilities. That included MD and DO. The school I chose was not the next closest, but once moving away it really didn't matter how far away.

I believe it is far more common that someone wants MD, cannot get into an allopathic school and go DO as a second option...

I agree. Far, far more common. But not a universal truth as you claimed. You went so far as to even single out one person who happened to be an exception and call them a liar, or maybe just ignorant. Thanks bud.

 

[osli]

I have a question for you TRAMD...

Are you attending the top ranked med school in the country? Does it have the best reputation?

If not, are you attending a school that was otherwise your first choice despite being obviously inferior? Or are there other students there that chose your school as their first choice even though it is inferior?

 

[J1515]

It is very bad form to lie. I suppose due to misinformation and naivety someone could actually believe that DO is the right choice and would therefore not be lying about their decision. I believe it is far more common that someone wants MD, cannot get into an allopathic school and go DO as a second option even though most DOs will say that they chose DO over MD. I would like to hear from a truly honest DO who says, "I wanted allopathic and tried for it but just didn't have the scores to get accepted. I went DO and am loving it nonetheless."

I have a bunch of friends in my school (DO) who flat out admit that they are there because they couldn't get into an MD school. However, I'm part of the group that you would call "liars" as I got into both MD schools and DO schools and chose the DO school. I have absolutely no regrets about my decision, nor am I naive. Being close to my family, familiar surroundings, and not having to pick up and move were much more important to me than the two letters that will come after my name. If you compare the number of available competitive osteopathic residency spots to the number of osteopathic graduating students, I think you will see the percentages are similar to that of the number of graduating allopathic students (much higher) to the number of available competitive allopathic residency spots (more than osteopathic residency spots).

Lastly, I'm not concerned with what school is the "best." At the hospitals in NYC there are Columbia graduates working right along side SUNY Downstate graduates and NYCOM graduates. I don't care that a bunch of pre-meds think that every patient is going to ask what DO stands for. There's the real world, and then there's SDN.

 

[gtleeee]

If you claim that, yes.

Comments such as TRIAM's pop up on SDN from time to time. I am convinced that these people make such statements without malice. The big mistake they make with this line of reasoning is PROJECTION. They themselves would never consider such an option therefore they project their own "mindset" on the rest of humanity. I have been in the "D.O." business over 25 years now and have encountered plenty of students and docs through the years who were convinced that Osteopathic Medicine was to be their first choice. And I know without question that some of these turned down U.S. seats to go to Osteopathic schools. The reasons for this are many. In my case 100 years of Osteopathic history within my family and a dedicated Uncle (D.O.) who loved the profession was the impetus for my choice.

It is a mistake to assume that everyone else shares our exact perceptions of things i.e. motivating factors to make one choice over another.

 

[Shinken]

I am convinced that these people make such statements without malice.

I do too.

 

[TRAMD]

I have a question for you TRAMD...

Are you attending the top ranked med school in the country? Does it have the best reputation?

If not, are you attending a school that was otherwise your first choice despite being obviously inferior? Or are there other students there that chose your school as their first choice even though it is inferior?

You make some good points. I did not attend the top ranked school, far from it. I chose my school based on geography as well.

I have already made my point about "inferiority" in terms of top and bottom allopathic vs. bottom allopathic and top osteopathic. Again, this applies only to competitiveness for residency and NOT for quality of medical education.

 

[TRAMD]

Comments such as TRIAM's pop up on SDN from time to time. I am convinced that these people make such statements without malice. The big mistake they make with this line of reasoning is PROJECTION. They themselves would never consider such an option therefore they project their own "mindset" on the rest of humanity. I have been in the "D.O." business over 25 years now and have encountered plenty of students and docs through the years who were convinced that Osteopathic Medicine was to be their first choice. And I know without question that some of these turned down U.S. seats to go to Osteopathic schools. The reasons for this are many. In my case 100 years of Osteopathic history within my family and a dedicated Uncle (D.O.) who loved the profession was the impetus for my choice.

It is a mistake to assume that everyone else shares our exact perceptions of things i.e. motivating factors to make one choice over another.

Excellent post. I enjoy making inflammatory remarks, engaging in heated debate and coming to a realization with my own false beliefs or changing the false beliefs of another.

I say this with no sarcasm: You have swayed my opinion some with your post. I am very passionate about some things simply because of friends and family. There is no reason the same could not be true for one's medical path. Some things are just more important than others and comfort with the known is a strong force against the unknown.

So, I COMPLETELY believe that someone whom applies only to DO schools believes that DO is their best option. I wonder, however, why one would apply to both allo and osteo if they knew DO was the right choice for them? It is not like you would need allopathic schools as back-up. You wouldn't apply to derm as a back-up in case you didn't match into FP.

As far as the maliciousness of my intent . . . you are correct, there is none. I take no pleasure in hurting someone. I believe that my ability to truly harm anyone on this forum is basically 0 and I would be a fool to believe that my words on here really mean that much to anyone. It is a form of entertainment at times and a source of information at others and should never be anything more.

 

[spreebee]

I'm not a huge fan of the Caribean medical schools, but they do have their use as a "safety net" of sorts. I think anyone who's gone through applying to med school and being in med school knows that the process is flawed, at best.

I've known people who, not only had great scores but also great personalities, bungle the application process. Maybe they freak out on interviews, maybe they mess up the personal statement, maybe they applied late, maybe they just got crappy vindicitive interviewers by bad luck at each place they went, who knows? That'd be bad enough, but its rubbing salt in a wound when you get INTO medical school and stumble across those...how should I put this...questionable admissions. Maybe they've got the smarts but they're a psycho and you wouldn't trust them within 50 meters of a patient. Maybe they're a nice enough guy, but they just don't seem to "get it" and struggle with even the most basic material. It's just a double whammy when you see people who you know would excell be left out and those who flounder get in.

That's why I enjoy the Caribbean success stories, guys who couldn't get into American schools go outside the country and come roaring back. I'm working with one now, guys the darling of the hospital. Students, interns, seniors, attendings, nurses, they all love the guy. He's smart as hell, funny, and he's already got a pretty nice fellowship lined up for himself. It'd have been a crime if this guy hadn't gone into medicine and had been stopped by a faulty admission system.

Nice post

 

[Meatwad]

So, I COMPLETELY believe that someone whom applies only to DO schools believes that DO is their best option. I wonder, however, why one would apply to both allo and osteo if they knew DO was the right choice for them? It is not like you would need allopathic schools as back-up. You wouldn't apply to derm as a back-up in case you didn't match into FP.

Indeed. Like your analogy implies, they would apply to FP as a backup to derm, though. I don't think anyone, except the most extreme of Kool-Aid drinkers, would argue that the majority of DOs went into it as a backup. Some truly believe in the philosophy, or have a family history of being DOs, which are legitimate reasons. If a paradigm shift is imminent in the way healthcare is delivered in this country, DOs and MDs truly need to band together and cooperate and put aside old ill will.

 

[TRAMD]

Indeed. Like your analogy implies, they would apply to FP as a backup to derm, though. I don't think anyone, except the most extreme of Kool-Aid drinkers, would argue that the majority of DOs went into it as a backup. Some truly believe in the philosophy, or have a family history of being DOs, which are legitimate reasons. If a paradigm shift is imminent in the way healthcare is delivered in this country, DOs and MDs truly need to band together and cooperate and put aside old ill will.

I couldn't agree more. It frustrates me that I am sure I am coming across as a DO-hater. I do not believe there is a major difference in the quality of medical education given at MD, DO or even caribbean medical schools. There are MANY very intelligent, very affable people who might not be able to get into a US MD school right away and choose DO or carib. Most of these people become excellent doctors and are a true asset to healthcare. I know more than a few of them! I also admire that they have a desire to become a physician that is so strong they are willing to accept the greater obstacles that they may encounter.

 

[Meatwad]

I also admire that they have a desire to become a physician that is so strong they are willing to accept the greater obstacles that they may encounter.

Definitely; especially when I see that outlier from some Caribbean school that lands a derm/ENT/ophtho residency. I can only think to myself, this kid must have had the most amazing Step 1 score and had the most likeable personality ever to land that spot. Much respect.

As a quick note: has anyone ever seen a Caribbean grad in a plastics reisdency (NOT fellowship trained following a GS residency)? I haven't and I've used our friend google; there are more than a couple Carib grads that get derm, but it seems plastics is just on another plane of existence.

 

[spreebee]

I am currently a Caribbean medical student getting prepared to start second year, and I would like to share my experiences.

I am near the top of my class, and I have thus far scored very well on my shelf exams and preliminary USMLE qbank tests, which are both scaled to include U.S. medical students.

Many of my Professors were either former faculty at U.S. medical schools, or they are currently visiting Professors from U.S. medical schools, including top 20 schools.

I have spent the past 12 months, including this past summer, working about 12-15 hours per day. I am hoping to obtain a competitive USMLE score.

After I take the step 1, I will rotate in US hospitals, where I will continue to work hard. I plan on graduating in 4 years.

Whether you think it is fair or not, I hope the U.S. Medical Students here who is read this remembers that students like me, who are intelligent, hard-working, and highly-motivated in medical school, might in fact out compete some of you for a competitive residency.

Someone who is a faculty member or Resident at a hospital that you rotate at, who is in fact supervising and teaching you, might be an IMG.

Complaining that admission standards are easier for Caribbean students, or bashing my qualifications as either a student, or later on, as an MD, will not help you meet your individual goals.

Excellent Post!

 

[osli]

You make some good points. I did not attend the top ranked school, far from it. I chose my school based on geography as well.

I have already made my point about "inferiority" in terms of top and bottom allopathic vs. bottom allopathic and top osteopathic. Again, this applies only to competitiveness for residency and NOT for quality of medical education.

You got the point, but I did want to make sure I had the chance to say that when I wrote "obviously inferior" above it was a literary tool to make a point. It should be clear that I think there are a lot of factors that go into one's decision about which school to attend, and not all of those are based on US News rankings and such. Wherever you are, it clearly isn't inferior to you... it had the best combination of reputation, match list, geography, cost, curriculum, etc. of the schools that accepted you.

I think once some of the elite MD schools are removed from the list, there remains a mix of mid tier and DO schools for a lot of students.

I also think in a lot of cases students who would be a strong MD applicant with another year of EC's or an MCAT retake realize they can get started a year sooner if accepted to a DO school. These are the same students that many MD students have as classmates... they just are here this year instead of there the next.

But good to know your mind is being opened. If you went from not even knowing about DO's until recently, to now understanding that some people actually (gasp!) choose to go that route, who knows?... maybe one day we can get the AMA and AOA to merge!?! Well, not until we get a handle on this RVU nonsense, but I can hope.

 

[TRAMD]

You got the point, but I did want to make sure I had the chance to say that when I wrote "obviously inferior" above it was a literary tool to make a point. It should be clear that I think there are a lot of factors that go into one's decision about which school to attend, and not all of those are based on US News rankings and such. Wherever you are, it clearly isn't inferior to you... it had the best combination of reputation, match list, geography, cost, curriculum, etc. of the schools that accepted you.

I think once some of the elite MD schools are removed from the list, there remains a mix of mid tier and DO schools for a lot of students.

I also think in a lot of cases students who would be a strong MD applicant with another year of EC's or an MCAT retake realize they can get started a year sooner if accepted to a DO school. These are the same students that many MD students have as classmates... they just are here this year instead of there the next.

But good to know your mind is being opened. If you went from not even knowing about DO's until recently, to now understanding that some people actually (gasp!) choose to go that route, who knows?... maybe one day we can get the AMA and AOA to merge!?! Well, not until we get a handle on this RVU nonsense, but I can hope.

[offers hand to shake]

 

[Northerner]

[offers hand to shake]

It's a trap!

 

[freelove]

It's a trap!

I don't know why I found that so funny, but I laughed out loud.

 

[Meatwad]

I don't know why I found that so funny, but I laughed out loud.

Because you imagined Northerner looked like Admiral Ackbar from Star Wars.

 

[BusterDO]

I don't know why I found that so funny, but I laughed out loud.

Ditto

On a side note...it's nice to see the future of this nation's healthcare is not full of pretentious idiots that can't see beyond themselves. It's not very common to see a discussion like this one, especially on SDN, end in "sides" agreeing or offering a hand to shake.

 

[da8s0859q]

Ditto

On a side note...it's nice to see the future of this nation's healthcare is not full of pretentious idiots that can't see beyond themselves. It's not very common to see a discussion like this one, especially on SDN, end in "sides" agreeing or offering a hand to shake.

Roger that, cap'n. This forum has taught me two things:

• Some of my fellow premeds / med students that made it to the land o' MS-X faster than I did are dinguses, and;
• Many of my fellow premeds / med students that made it to the land o' MS-X faster than I did are absolutely fantastic.

Yeah, that's a statement of the obvious, I know. But still!

 

[njbmd]

This thread has run it's course and now it's closing.