(Serious) Do you think major hair changes, especially in females, can suggest past trauma/struggles?

[nighthawk2551]

Not trying to disparage or poke fun here, I'm looking for genuine opinion. Every girl/woman I have known, both personally and professionally, that have shaved or dyed their hair a neon/strange color has had some sort of trauma or messed up past. Just wondering if you all think there is some sort of connection there, and if you have seen it in your work.

I was talking about it with my wife (who has done similar things) and she agreed it could be something like trying to establish a new identity or a drastic way to separate the person from the past. The only reasons someone would want to do that is if they have had a traumatic or difficult past. Inspired by this Reddit thread () that talks about the Teddy Bear sign.

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[hamstergang]

I don't know.

However, that article on the teddy bear sign doesn't say what the reddit person thinks.
"For those 18 and over, there was a significant difference but only after adjusting for all other patient characteristics, and absolute differences were small. ...We conclude that patient possession of toy stuffed animals in the EMU is not a reliable sign of PNES."

For those with epilepsy, 127 had no stuffed animal and 20 had a stuffed animal. For those with PNES, 90 had no stuffed animal and 14 had a stuffed animal. For those with epilepsy and PNES, 11 had no stuffed animal and 2 had a stuffed animal.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

Not trying to disparage or poke fun here, I'm looking for genuine opinion. Every girl/woman I have known, both personally and professionally, that have shaved or dyed their hair a neon/strange color has had some sort of trauma or messed up past. Just wondering if you all think there is some sort of connection there, and if you have seen it in your work.

I was talking about it with my wife (who has done similar things) and she agreed it could be something like trying to establish a new identity or a drastic way to separate the person from the past. The only reasons someone would want to do that is if they have had a traumatic or difficult past. Inspired by this Reddit thread () that talks about the Teddy Bear sign. .

It has to do with an unstable sense of self, and usually pertains to a cluster B diagnosis.

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[nitemagi]

It has to do with an unstable sense of self, and usually pertains to a cluster B diagnosis.

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.

All cluster B have an unstable self of self, but not all with unstable self have cluster B.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

All cluster B have an unstable self of self, but not all with unstable self have cluster B.

True

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[birchswing]

I showed up to an appt with a service board psychiatrist once. He was Pakistani and generally had been very buttoned up (dark suits). This day his hair was platinum blonde and spiked straight up and he was wearing a purple suit (big, like a Zoot suit) with pinstripes. I (believe) I was able to not visibly react and never remarked on any of his many sudden appearance changes. Years after he left, I found out the entire time I had been seeing him he was facing various infractions (prescribing himself benzos and z-drugs, DUIs, not complying with board orders, etc.). It made re-evaluate retrospectively what that sudden spiky-blonde, zoot suit riot was about.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

All cluster B have an unstable self of self, but not all with unstable self have cluster B.

But certainly those with histrionic tendencies put an emphasis on appearance. Although I do think it's equally possible that women change their hair styles due to more innocuous reasons

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[FlowRate]

Shaved heads and bright colors have become an actually popular trend lately, so I think they're less reliable predictors than before. Frequent changes in ("natural") hair color is probably a better predictor.

 

[Auvelity]

lol you guys are reading too much into this. It's like when men say that women with tramp stamp have daddy issues lol.
it is true that, we (women) do tend to make major changes in hair after "we close a cycle or feel the need for a change". I've done the whole changing hair color or length after a breakup. For us its like making we are a different person statement. its not so much about having a past trauma. its more about renewing ourselves kinda thing. "new hair, new life kinda thing". Now about the crazy colors, its pretty much about everyone personality and likes. I "as a matter of fact" want to get my hair very bright red, but, what stops me its that I wanna get a job during this next upcoming match season and I could bump into people that still actually judge people over "things like that".

 

[nitemagi]

lol you guys are reading too much into this. It's like when men say that women with tramp stamp have daddy issues lol.
it is true that, we (women) do tend to make major changes in hair after "we close a cycle or feel the need for a change". I've done the whole changing hair color or length after a breakup. For us its like making we are a different person statement. its not so much about having a past trauma. its more about renewing ourselves kinda thing. "new hair, new life kinda thing". Now about the crazy colors, its pretty much about everyone personality and likes. I "as a matter of fact" want to get my hair very bright red, but, what stops me its that I wanna get a job during this next upcoming match season and I could bump into people that still actually judge people over "things like that".

This whole thing seems like an issue of trying to pathologize everything that deviates from an artificial "norm."

 

[675015]

This whole thing seems like an issue of trying to pathologize everything that deviates from an artificial "norm."

Isn’t our entire field pathologizng behavior that that deviates from some arbitrary norm?

But seriously, I don’t think atypical hair color means cluster B. However, I have noticed there are a whole lot more atypical hair colors in the DBT group I run than in my other two groups. Maybe it’s related to more creativity. Maybe it’s the group skews younger and are more up to date on trends. Maybe like the above poster stated changes represent a new beginning and patients with cluster B traits have more frequent and dramatic beginnings.

When multiple psychiatrists notice a pattern with a type of behavior, it seems worth discussing or exploring.

 

[darknecrosforte]

Adopting outer characteristics that would be expected from the truly dangerous in order to hide your truly harmless nature is so old that even plants do it.

Aposematism - Wikipedia

 

[nitemagi]

Isn’t our entire field pathologizng behavior that that deviates from some arbitrary norm?

But seriously, I don’t think atypical hair color means cluster B. However, I have noticed there are a whole lot more atypical hair colors in the DBT group I run than in my other two groups. Maybe it’s related to more creativity. Maybe it’s the group skews younger and are more up to date on trends. Maybe like the above poster stated changes represent a new beginning and patients with cluster B traits have more frequent and dramatic beginnings.

When multiple psychiatrists notice a pattern with a type of behavior, it seems worth discussing or exploring.

No. It's a pathology when it causes functional impairment.

Tell me how changing hairstyle or hair color is a functional impairment.

 

[675015]

No. It's a pathology when it causes functional impairment.

Tell me how changing hairstyle or hair color is a functional impairment.

No one said it was pathological. OP just pointed out a behavior he/she thought was associated with trauma. Psychiatrists can try to understand behavior without patholigizing it.

 

[nighthawk2551]

No. It's a pathology when it causes functional impairment.

Tell me how changing hairstyle or hair color is a functional impairment.

I get what you're saying, that changing one's hairstyle should not objectively cause dysfunction. However, humans are social creatures that abide by social norms. The hair styles and colors I'm talking about are deliberately chosen to challenge social norms. It can be expected that a certain percentage of the population would have disdain for those with "abnormal" hairstyles because it is obvious they are deliberately going against social norms, which can cause dysfunction in many ways. For instance, a poster above said she really wants bright red hair but isn't doing it because she wants to match. She is admitting that changing her hairstyle in such a way would likely cause significant dysfunction in her life.

 

[Armadillos]

From a Bayesian stats inspired standpoint if you have two people side by side and one has culturally surprising/atypical/etc hair, I think the stats would play out the individual with atypical hair has a higher chance of personality pathology and therefore a higher chance of trauma hx.

Although this doesn’t seem useful at all as there are massive amounts of false positives and you can just interview them to actually find out. In fact the original assumption you make based on hair may bias your judgement to point of making you ignore information you learn later and make diagnosis less accurate overall.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

From a Bayesian stats inspired standpoint if you have two people side by side and one has culturally surprising/atypical/etc hair, I think the stats would play out the individual with atypical hair has a higher chance of personality pathology and therefore a higher chance of trauma hx.

Although this doesn’t seem useful at all as there are massive amounts of false positives and you can just interview them to actually find out. In fact the original assumption you make based on hair may bias your judgement to point of making you ignore information you learn later and make diagnosis less accurate overall.

Good point. I had a patient who was transfered to me that was diagnosed BPD. I kept "trying" to make it fit but it just didn't feel right. I eventually realized she had Aspergers, not BPD. The bias is real.

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[TexasPhysician]

I've done the whole changing hair color or length after a breakup. For us its like making we are a different person statement. its not so much about having a past trauma.

In defense of your opinion, you quote a designer who radically changed fashion after having a quite traumatic childhood?

 

[WisNeuro]

Good point. I had a patient who was transfered to me that was diagnosed BPD. I kept "trying" to make it fit but it just didn't feel right. I eventually realized she had Aspergers, not BPD. The bias is real.

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I pretty much just never believe diagnoses that my patients come in with anyway and start from the ground up. Like my recent "Primary Progressive MS" patient who was diagnosed in the early 90's, is somehow still doing pretty well and has not showed much, if any change in her MRI in the last 15 years.

 

[Healer777]

A lot of people dye their hair as a form of creative expression.

It's not necessarily a pathology. I have dyed the tips of my hair pink before. It made me feel more confident and happy. I liked my appearance better, because the pink color suited me and made me more attractive. I really wish I could get light blue highlights now, but I start my clinical rotations soon and it probably would be seen as "unprofessional".

I didn't dye my hair because I was unsure of my identity. It was just for fun and because I liked how it looked.

I personally think that it is a good thing for people to express themselves through their appearances. We are all different and diversity should be celebrated. The real pathology is conformity.

 

[Healer777]

I pretty much just never believe diagnoses that my patients come in with anyway and start from the ground up. Like my recent "Primary Progressive MS" patient who was diagnosed in the early 90's, is somehow still doing pretty well and has not showed much, if any change in her MRI in the last 15 years.

Stephen Hawking lived for years with what was diagnosed as ALS. I always found that interesting. Physicians are educated and knowledgeable, but no one has a crystal ball. And misdiagnoses are common.

 

[WisNeuro]

Stephen Hawking lived for years with what was diagnosed as ALS. I always found that interesting. Physicians are educated and knowledgeable, but no one has a crystal ball. And misdiagnoses are common.

Yes, zebras do occur. In my patient's case, I could find no actual confirmatory testing. Just chart notes that copied and pasted earlier notes. While education and knowledge are great, common sense is also a good thing to have so that we don't saddle a patient with a misdiagnosis that significantly affects their quality of life.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I’ll share an alternative hypothesis using knowledge learned at the Renaissance Festival.

While eating a turkey leg with my family, a woman with 3 tails sat near to us to eat her meal. I couldn’t help myself from asking “Why 3?”. You never know where you will learn something.

She explained that everyone cool at the Festival dresses in fun attire. When everyone is dressing to get attention, it is hard to stand out. From experience, she established that 3 tails is the ideal number to get men to focus on her self-reported best asset.

My alternative hypothesis of dyed hair is of a learned natural selection tactic. Drawing more attention to your best features draws more potential mates.

 

[WisNeuro]

I’ll share an alternative hypothesis using knowledge learned at the Renaissance Festival.

While eating a turkey leg with my family, a woman with 3 tails sat near to us to eat her meal. I couldn’t help myself from asking “Why 3?”. You never know where you will learn something.

She explained that everyone cool at the Festival dresses in fun attire. When everyone is dressing to get attention, it is hard to stand out. From experience, she established that 3 tails is the ideal number to get men to focus on her self-reported best asset.

My alternative hypothesis of dyed hair is of a learned natural selection tactic. Drawing more attention to your best features draws more potential mates.

Well, 1 is just pedestrian. If you do 2, people think you are cosplaying a character from Sonic. 3 definitely seems the most plausible way to go.

 

[whopper]

Yes....

But it's too open to make any conclusions. At best it should invite a discussion about it.

IMHO too many psychiatrists think they know more than what they really know. Real expertise in personalities and such require real in-depth knowledge. Simply having disorders memorized, medications memorized, their side effects, and dosages don't make one a personality expert.

And while psychiatry training is supposed to be more than the medications, so many psychiatrists limit it to medications, shrug off the vast pool of academic psychological data, and in complete contradiction believe they are experts in psychology.

 

[SeniorWrangler]

I think you're mistaking conservatism for psychology here. If this forum had been around in the late 60's, there would have been lots of threads about long hair and beards.

 

[whopper]

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Real experise in Freudian psychoanalysis requires thorough study of his books on the subject.

So medical students/residents/psychiatrist get the superficial Id, Ego, Super-ego lecture and they all of a sudden think they're an expert without reading the hundreds of pages of material to make them realize that that really is only the beginning of understanding his approach. Then they start telling patients what to do, based on that 1 hour lecture with a 5 page handout, when they really don't know much about it.

More specific example, a patient I knew was raped and suffered PTSD from it. She experienced flashbacks that worsened because she started frequently seeing the rapist at the grocery store. Her psychiatrist (it wasn't me) told her that she needed to confront him to overcome the PTSD....without consideration for her safety, it could make the PTSD worse, etc., and when she asked him his thought process he responded he was an "expert" in psychotherapy. Turned out he knew nothing more than the perfunctory lecture on psychotherapy residents get, claimed to know psychotherapy and meds and I wouldn't even say he knew that either. He gave every patient he saw up to 3 meds all of them either Paxil, Olanzapine and/or Clonazepam.

 

[slappy]

And while psychiatry training is supposed to be more than the medications, so many psychiatrists limit it to medications, shrug off the vast pool of academic psychological data, and in complete contradiction believe they are experts in psychology.

...most of which are rubbish.

 

[WisNeuro]

...most of which are rubbish.

Generally just scientific research in general.

1,500 scientists lift the lid on reproducibility

And that's just reproducibility. We can go on and on about things like pharma studies that use contraindicated methods to look at treatment effects, most likely intentionally.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

Generally just scientific research in general.

1,500 scientists lift the lid on reproducibility

And that's just reproducibility. We can go on and on about things like pharma studies that use contraindicated methods to look at treatment effects, most likely intentionally.

So basically our field sucks and is full of quacks?? That's depressing

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[WisNeuro]

So basically our field sucks and is full of quacks?? That's depressing

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I'd read a little more into it than that. First, this is a science problem, not limited to one field. Second, it's likely multifactorial. For example, one of the links provided discusses how hard it is to get a paper published that is a replication in general, and perhaps even harder if it's a replication that did not find significant results. The pressure to publish, with tenure becoming harder and harder to secure, is a dire thing. So, would you waste your time on trying to do replication studies with a smaller chance of being published, or would you move on to a different study when your career is on the line? Add to that the issue that grant monies are drying up and becoming more competitive subsequent to that. I've been out of academia, but I imagine that there aren't a ton of grants out there available for replication studies. So, where does the time and money come from?

Several months ago I came across a series of articles about this very subject, I'll see if I can track them down. But, if this is a topic that people want to really delve into, it should be in it's own thread. Also, I may thrown it into the PhD section, if merely because there are more primary researchers in there who will most likely have a good insight into some of this.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

I'd read a little more into it than that. First, this is a science problem, not limited to one field. Second, it's likely multifactorial. For example, one of the links provided discusses how hard it is to get a paper published that is a replication in general, and perhaps even harder if it's a replication that did not find significant results. The pressure to publish, with tenure becoming harder and harder to secure, is a dire thing. So, would you waste your time on trying to do replication studies with a smaller chance of being published, or would you move on to a different study when your career is on the line? Add to that the issue that grant monies are drying up and becoming more competitive subsequent to that. I've been out of academia, but I imagine that there aren't a ton of grants out there available for replication studies. So, where does the time and money come from?

Several months ago I came across a series of articles about this very subject, I'll see if I can track them down. But, if this is a topic that people want to really delve into, it should be in it's own thread. Also, I may thrown it into the PhD section, if merely because there are more primary researchers in there who will most likely have a good insight into some of this.

My old stats professor would go on this rant several times per year. I do think it's ridiculous that more replication studies do not get published nor do many studies that don't have significant findings. I sometimes compare it to case law and how one ruling can influence many rulings that follow, even if that one initial ruling was flawed and/or was only relevant to that specific case. Obviously we have the peer-reviewed procedure in place for a reason but I definitely agree that research today has many flaws.

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[WisNeuro]

My old stats professor would go on this rant several times per year. I do think it's ridiculous that more replication studies do not get published nor do many studies that don't have significant findings. I sometimes compare it to case law and how one ruling can influence many rulings that follow, even if that one initial ruling was flawed and/or was only relevant to that specific case. Obviously we have the peer-reviewed procedure in place for a reason but I definitely agree that research today has many flaws.

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Research has always had flaws. Go back sometimes and find the old seminal or oft cited works in textbooks (e.g., Millgram, Stanford Prison Experiment, etc). These methodological issues in these papers is astounding. Most people take them at face value, but they are some of the most poorly designed/maintained studies that I can conceive.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

Research has always had flaws. Go back sometimes and find the old seminal or oft cited works in textbooks (e.g., Millgram, Stanford Prison Experiment, etc). These methodological issues in these papers is astounding. Most people take them at face value, but they are some of the most poorly designed/maintained studies that I can conceive.

There were definitely methodological flaws and let's not even get into the ethics, but do you think there was the same issue with money? Meaning, do you think there was as much research influenced by those with a financial stake? I guess it just seems to me it was less about "politics" than it is today. But I could be completely wrong about that.

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[whopper]

Oh yeah there is plenty of rubbish,

But my bigger point is if a student took a 1 hour lecture of Freudian theories that doesn't make them an expert on psychoanalysis, yet armed with a psychiatry residency degree many think they're an expert.

So basically our field sucks and is full of quacks?? That's depressing

Our field is awesome but it is full of quacks, but my point is not to bash us but that we all need to up our game.

 

[WisNeuro]

There were definitely methodological flaws and let's not even get into the ethics, but do you think there was the same issue with money? Meaning, do you think there was as much research influenced by those with a financial stake? I guess it just seems to me it was less about "politics" than it is today. But I could be completely wrong about that.

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It's always been tainted with politics. Look back at the physiognomy stuff as a small example.

 

[clausewitz2]

It's always been tainted with politics. Look back at the physiognomy stuff as a small example.

Yeah the politics used to be much more about whose advisor snubbed whose in Vienna or Berlin or New Haven back in the day.

 

[nowaysanjose]

I pretty much just never believe diagnoses that my patients come in with anyway and start from the ground up. Like my recent "Primary Progressive MS" patient who was diagnosed in the early 90's, is somehow still doing pretty well and has not showed much, if any change in her MRI in the last 15 years.

So you disagree with all comorbid medical conditions despite not being a physician?

 

[WisNeuro]

So you disagree with all comorbid medical conditions despite not being a physician?

I think my point was lost in the post. It's more that you assume that the diagnoses can be wrong, and not always taking the problem list at face value. Depending on the mental health diagnosis, I usually remain very skeptical, especially depending on the source of diagnosis. When it comes to neurological diagnoses, also depends on where the referral comes from. There are some neurologists that I work with who are excellent, others....not so much.