Serious Felony Conviction - Chances???

[wahoo23]

I was convicted of a serious felony (1st Degree Robbery) and served prison time.

I was 17 in 1997 when I was tried as an adult and convicted. I paroled in 2003 after serving 6 years. Since then I have graduated with a Chemical Engineering degree from UCSD and received a California Certificate of Rehabiliation from the State of California Superior Courts.

A California Certificate of Rehabilitation is a court finding that you have been rehabilitated following a criminal conviction. It can go a long way in helping you secure better employment prospects and professional licensing. Moreover, if granted, it acts as an automatic application for a governor's pardon.

Coming back to present time (2015). It's been 18 years since my conviction and I don't see any reason why I wouldn't receive a full govnernor's pardon (it's in the process! ). I've been working as a mid-high level employee at a pharmaceutical company that also manufactures DEA controlled drugs. I want to know what are other people's opinions before I embark on this long journey.

My plan is to complete a SMP to raise my gpa and show that I can handle the course load.

cGPA: 3.36
sGPA: 3.25

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[C02232934]

@gyngyn @Goro @LizzyM @mimelim

 

[gyngyn]

Start by contacting the California Medical Board to get an assessment of your chances of ever being granted a license.
http://www.mbc.ca.gov/

 

[LizzyM]

Was this a violent crime, a drug crime, terrorism, domestic abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse, elder abuse or a crime that involved insurance fraud ? If yes, in my opinion you don't stand a chance, regardless of whatever paperwork you have. This may be what gyngyn is getting at regarding checking with licensure body.

If no, your GPA will need an extensive rehabilitation before you have any chance of admission.

I'd suggest that you stay the course in pharmaceuticals.

 

[wahoo23]

Based on the California Medical Board, the board cannot deny me a license solely based on my past conviction since receiving the Certificate of Rehabilitation, so in other words, I guess, the board needs to find another reason to deny me.

 

[mimelim]

35 year old with a felony conviction and a bad GPA?

Do not waste your time.

Even if a licensing body can technically give you a license, schools are going to be extremely hesitant to take you on. If you were a 3.9/37/strong ECs with the criminal history, I think an argument could be made that taking a shot isn't a terrible idea given how long it has been. But, GPA repair with those blemishes is a waste of time.

 

[wahoo23]

Thx for all the replies. I appreciate it. I guess a full governors pardon will not even rescue my case. I will continue paying my debt to society for a bone head immature decision when I was young.

 

[LizzyM]

Thx for all the replies. I appreciate it. I guess a full governors pardon will not even rescue my case. I will continue paying my debt to society for a bone head immature decision when I was young.

This has nothing to do with a debt to society. It has to do with whether a school can justify the risk you present as an academically marginal student who might take a seat but not successfully complete the degree and as a convicted felon who may complete the degree but not be able to obtain a license to practice due to that felony conviction. With more than 2 applicants nationwide for every seat nationwide (only 43% of all applicants get in somewhere) the schools can be very picky. They are unlikely to pick you and I'd say that based on your GPA alone but the past history is the cherry on top.

 

[Goro]

I concur with my learned colleagues.

 

[gyngyn]

Thx for all the replies. I appreciate it. I guess a full governors pardon will not even rescue my case. I will continue paying my debt to society for a bone head immature decision when I was young.

A Governor's pardon does not seal or expunge a criminal record.
The chance of getting an interview at my school with a felony conviction is non-detectable.

There are other ways to be of service.

 

[el_duderino]

Why do you want to be a physician?

 

[heartsink]

Have you tried calling schools you're interested in (especially your state school) about this?

It's unlikely but maybe its worth a shot before you give up.

 

[Law2Doc]

...I will continue paying my debt to society for a bone head immature decision when I was young.

Yes you will. You did the crime. Not becoming a doctor is part of the repercussions, unfortunately.

 

[p0gono]

Yes you will. You did the crime. Not becoming a doctor is part of the repercussions, unfortunately.

Spoken like a true law2doc. Former prosecutor?

Has OP looked into DO policies? The gpa would be less of a problem if you are truly dedicated to being a physician. But especially being older, have you thought of other fields in healthcare? As you can see, the doctor industrial complex is very risk-averse and not the most open-minded. And the gpa problem is real.

 

[Seth Joo]

I was convicted of a serious felony (1st Degree Robbery) and served prison time.

I was 17 in 1997 when I was tried as an adult and convicted. I paroled in 2003 after serving 6 years. Since then I have graduated with a Chemical Engineering degree from UCSD and received a California Certificate of Rehabiliation from the State of California Superior Courts.

A California Certificate of Rehabilitation is a court finding that you have been rehabilitated following a criminal conviction. It can go a long way in helping you secure better employment prospects and professional licensing. Moreover, if granted, it acts as an automatic application for a governor's pardon.

Coming back to present time (2015). It's been 18 years since my conviction and I don't see any reason why I wouldn't receive a full govnernor's pardon (it's in the process! ). I've been working as a mid-high level employee at a pharmaceutical company that also manufactures DEA controlled drugs. I want to know what are other people's opinions before I embark on this long journey.

My plan is to complete a SMP to raise my gpa and show that I can handle the course load.

cGPA: 3.36
sGPA: 3.25

I doubt it, a serious violent crime is a going to look very bad on an application, something else like a non violent offense is a different story. The fact is that you were convicted of a crime and did prison time. It would be a different story if you were arrested and then later found to be innocent.

 

[Goro]

Do not think for a moment that just because we forgive poor academic performance prior to GPA or MCAT repair/redemption that we would overlook a felony conviction. OP will NOT get an II from my school!

Spoken like a true law2doc. Former prosecutor?

Has OP looked into DO policies? The gpa would be less of a problem if you are truly dedicated to being a physician. But especially being older, have you thought of other fields in healthcare? As you can see, the doctor industrial complex is very risk-averse and not the most open-minded. And the gpa problem is real.

 

[Gandyy]

Spoken like a true law2doc. Former prosecutor?

Has OP looked into DO policies? The gpa would be less of a problem if you are truly dedicated to being a physician. But especially being older, have you thought of other fields in healthcare? As you can see, the doctor industrial complex is very risk-averse and not the most open-minded. And the gpa problem is real.

Lol "DO Policies" Dont do criminal record replacement. This isnt a GPA repair we are talking about.

 

[beestrng]

I had a friend who was incarcerated for bank robbery. IDK if it was armed or not (not sure if it makes a difference), he became a PA and is licensed.

He told me that nobody will hire him due to his felony. He cant get stable work. Only some 1099 work.

 

[p0gono]

Do not think for a moment that just because we forgive poor academic performance prior to GPA or MCAT repair/redemption that we would overlook a felony conviction. OP will NOT get an II from my school!

Lol "DO Policies" Dont do criminal record replacement. This isnt a GPA repair we are talking about.

OK, there is the answer! To clarify, @Goro, do you mean you would never interview an applicant who was convicted of a felony at 17yo? I mean, assuming a stellar or perfectly-replaced academic record and a convincing account of their rehabilitation.

I didn't mean to suggest the record could be expunged or overlooked, but considering many of the circumstances that lead to poor academic performance in young people also put them at risk for criminal involvement, I wasn't sure if there might be more leniency in the DO world.

After all, a large proportion of the most underserved (and underrepresented in medicine) folks in the US are also under the control of (or fear of) the US criminal justice system. There is very good evidence that system has fundamental racial and socioeconomic biases. Risk aversion of top MD schools who have the pick of the litter, sure, but other degrees?

He told me that nobody will hire him due to his felony. He cant get stable work. Only some 1099 work.

This is messed up. So given hiring practices, is it advisable that nobody with a criminal record should go into the medical field?
If these people can't get jobs once they graduate, obviously, that is a huge problem and a reason in itself not to admit them. But that just kicks the can up the hierarchy - at what level is the decision being made that former, rehabilitated criminals are unsuited for healthcare?

 

[NoTownPreMed]

I applaud you wahoo23 for doing a complete 180 and making a huge change in your life. Unfortunately, just as others have mentioned having a serious felony conviction will most definitely void you of any opportunities in getting into any medical schools in the U.S.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

This is messed up. So given hiring practices, is it advisable that nobody with a criminal record should go into the medical field?
If these people can't get jobs once they graduate, obviously, that is a huge problem and a reason in itself not to admit them. But that just kicks the can up the hierarchy - at what level is the decision being made that former, rehabilitated criminals are unsuited for healthcare?

Unfortunately, many places I know operate this way. In the medical field, employers want to ensure they are hiring the "BEST" candidate out there. Are there people who carry a criminal record can do a better job than those who do not, of course. But we're talking about the medical profession here, where liability is everything. Regardless of how well you turn your life around and how long ago of the crime, that criminal record alone raises a big liability issue concern from most if not all places in the healthcare setting.

 

[beestrng]

...
This is messed up. So given hiring practices, is it advisable that nobody with a criminal record should go into the medical field?
If these people can't get jobs once they graduate, obviously, that is a huge problem and a reason in itself not to admit them. But that just kicks the can up the hierarchy - at what level is the decision being made that former, rehabilitated criminals are unsuited for healthcare?

I dont want to make a faulty generalization, but I am pretty sure anyone with such a history will have a hard time finding decent work. Even if the school was pretty liberal regarding a conviction I have the impression that a program director for residencies would take issue with it.

 

[Seth Joo]

I dont want to make a faulty generalization, but I am pretty sure anyone with such a history will have a hard time finding decent work. Even if the school was pretty liberal regarding a conviction I have the impression that a program director for residencies would take issue with it.

He should just not even bother, he committed a serious violent crime, was convicted of that crime, spent time in prison, no school is going to touch him, even if they did, he is going to have a hard time finding work. Schools will look at it differently if he was not convicted, ie the court declared him innocent but he was charged and arrested. A felony criminal conviction is a DOA.

You cannot even work as an auto mechanic at a lot of places with a felony conviction.

 

[skinofteeth]

.

 

[wahoo23]

Thx for the response! It's much appreciated. I have heard all of this talk before about how I can't do this or I can't do that but I achieve exactly what people said I couldn't because of my conviction that was much harder than getting into med school. Well, it's still not going to stop me from trying

 

[wahoo23]

I know someone who has a violent felony conviction...who works for the gov't....with children...
so take from that what you will.

I'm guessing the low gpa is due to the rigors of a chem engineering degree? If you can pull a high MCAT you may have a chance.

Thx! I actually got a federal security clearance. The federal gov't thinks I'm fit so I don't see why I'm not fit to work as a health profession

 

[wahoo23]

He should just not even bother, he committed a serious violent crime, was convicted of that crime, spent time in prison, no school is going to touch him, even if they did, he is going to have a hard time finding work. Schools will look at it differently if he was not convicted, ie the court declared him innocent but he was charged and arrested. A felony criminal conviction is a DOA.

You cannot even work as an auto mechanic at a lot of places with a felony conviction.

FYI: I work/help with a lot of ex-convict that turned their life around and got well respected professional occupation.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I know someone who has a violent felony conviction...who works for the gov't....with children...
so take from that what you will.

I'm guessing the low gpa is due to the rigors of a chem engineering degree? If you can pull a high MCAT you may have a chance.

Sure, ignore all of the advice of the adcoms here... The OP is unlikely to make it, unfortunately.

 

[el_duderino]

Thx for the response! It's much appreciated. I have heard all of this talk before about how I can't do this or I can't do that but I achieve exactly what people said I couldn't because of my conviction that was much harder than getting into med school. Well, it's still not going to stop me from trying

You're going to financially ruin yourself pursuing this.

You have a career. Don't throw it away.

 

[Seth Joo]

You're going to financially ruin yourself pursuing this.

You have a career. Don't throw it away.

Most medical schools will not even consider him, he was convicted of a violent crime. Anything involving the care of people will not consider someone who once did something that put other people in danger such as armed robbery.

There are even jobs that do not even involve care where a felony conviction will keep you out of employment, try for a job as a BMW mechanic. They will not hire you.

 

[Gandyy]

Yea, the problem here is that its a violent felony. If this was like a DUI, or any misdeamanor, it wouldnt be nearly as big a deal. But a 1st degree robbery is some movie level criminal stuff.

OP I say enjoy your current career, and forget about medicine. This will probably save you a lot of trouble down the road.

 

[Seth Joo]

Yea, the problem here is that its a violent felony. If this was like a DUI, or any misdeamanor, it wouldnt be nearly as big a deal. But a 1st degree robbery is some movie level criminal stuff.

OP I say enjoy your current career, and forget about medicine. This will probably save you a lot of trouble down the road.

You have to be careful with DUIs as well or any kind of drug and alcohol offenses that could get you in serious trouble as well. Also to be careful about this in school, because schools will run a background check again when you are a student. That is why I warn people about partying as a medical student, which in my eyes is just silly because at that point you are too old for that stuff anyway.

 

[Law2Doc]

Thx! I actually got a federal security clearance. The federal gov't thinks I'm fit so I don't see why I'm not fit to work as a health profession

there are far fewer med school seats than people who want them, and so med schools need to be much be more picky than the federal government. A lot of people have a hard time getting into med school just because when they were young and foolish they got a few poor grades. But being young and foolish and committing a serious felony is a whole lot bigger hurdle to wave away. Lots of people are "fit to work as a health professional" in the abstract, but won't get the chance because their applications have big red flags. A prior serious felony is one of the bigger ones. Unfortunately being a doctor requires not having made certain missteps long before you even necessarily know you want to be a doctor. If you are smart, you'll pick a path with a higher chance for success because frankly, of the thousands of people told they can't be a doctor each year, most don't even have as obvious a reason to know why.

 

[Seth Joo]

there are far fewer med school seats than people who want them, and so med schools need to be much be more picky than the federal government. A lot of people have a hard time getting into med school just because when they were young and foolish they got a few poor grades. But being young and foolish and committing a serious felony is a whole lot bigger hurdle to wave away. Lots of people are "fit to work as a health professional" in the abstract, but won't get the chance because their applications have big red flags. A prior serious felony is one of the bigger ones. Unfortunately being a doctor requires not having made certain missteps long before you even necessarily know you want to be a doctor. If you are smart, you'll pick a path with a higher chance for success because frankly, of the thousands of people told they can't be a doctor each year, most don't even have as obvious a reason to know why.

No medical school, even the Caribbean schools will not take this guy.

Take a look at the definition of the crime of "1st degree robbery":
A robbery charge is elevated to first degree robbery when the victim or someone else not involved in the crime is seriously injured. First degree robbery may also take place if the perpetrator is armed with a deadly weapon and threatens to use it against the victim.

 

[Goro]

It is very hard to overcome this attitude:

"We have so many good applicants who don't have this on their record, why take a chance on this guy/gal?"

I often talk about the need for years of exemplary behavior to make an applicant's sin get washed away, but I really don't know if this one is fixable.

OK, there is the answer! To clarify, @Goro, do you mean you would never interview an applicant who was convicted of a felony at 17yo? I mean, assuming a stellar or perfectly-replaced academic record and a convincing account of their rehabilitation.

I didn't mean to suggest the record could be expunged or overlooked, but considering many of the circumstances that lead to poor academic performance in young people also put them at risk for criminal involvement, I wasn't sure if there might be more leniency in the DO world.

After all, a large proportion of the most underserved (and underrepresented in medicine) folks in the US are also under the control of (or fear of) the US criminal justice system. There is very good evidence that system has fundamental racial and socioeconomic biases. Risk aversion of top MD schools who have the pick of the litter, sure, but other degrees?


This is messed up. So given hiring practices, is it advisable that nobody with a criminal record should go into the medical field?
If these people can't get jobs once they graduate, obviously, that is a huge problem and a reason in itself not to admit them. But that just kicks the can up the hierarchy - at what level is the decision being made that former, rehabilitated criminals are unsuited for healthcare?

 

[Seth Joo]

Even if a school does give him a chance, residency programs are going to see that he had committed a violent crime in his past. Its not going to look good, and even if they see it was a long time ago, and he gets a residency, employers are going to see that.

People get trouble getting work at even auto garages with felony convictions less serious than the OP.

 

[Law2Doc]

No medical school, even the Caribbean schools will not take this guy...

To be fair, there are actually probably Caribbean schools lower down in the pecking order that would take this guys money.

 

[Gandyy]

Even if a school does give him a chance, residency programs are going to see that he had committed a violent crime in his past. Its not going to look good, and even if they see it was a long time ago, and he gets a residency, employers are going to see that.

People get trouble getting work at even auto garages with felony convictions less serious than the OP.

Yep.

A felony is just way too bad. Its just a terrible terrible act.

You have to have so much negative intent/malice to actually go through with the act even at the age of 17. Its just awful. At the very least it is a sign of extremely bad judgement and if you were mislead by someone else even at age 17, it still reflects horrendously on your character.

I mean think about what the act of armed robbery is.
I could not imagine charging into a bank with loaded guns ready to gun down anyone so that I could steal someone else's life savings. Its just so bad on multiple levels. There is a certain inherent varying level of judgement that all humans have. OP's inherent level of judgement is far far below that of the average person.

I mean just think about how completely terrible of a person you have to be to do that. There are so many conscious and subconscious "blockers" that should be going off in your brain if you were to actually consider this act.

Now, I also believe in reform. OP seems like he has refined and changed himself very well, which is a good thing and he is now set on a good career path.

BUT, OP, the committees are going to think about all the stuff I mentioned above so thats why I'm saying you should just not bother with it.

 

[el_duderino]

Getting into med school is only one hurdle anyway. Getting a residency spot is another, and is probably less likely than getting into school in the first place. Then getting licensed, then getting a job.

 

[el_duderino]

Yep.

A felony is just way too bad. Its just a terrible terrible act.

You have to have so much negative intent/malice to actually go through with the act even at the age of 17. Its just awful. At the very least it is a sign of extremely bad judgement and if you were mislead by someone else even at age 17, it still reflects horrendously on your character.

I mean think about what the act of armed robbery is.
I could not imagine charging into a bank with loaded guns ready to gun down anyone so that I could steal someone else's life savings.

I mean just think about how completely terrible of a person you have to be to do that. There are so many conscious and subconscious "blockers" that should be going off in your brain if you were to actually consider this act.

Let's not go overboard here. There's no need to call the OP a terrible person, or to imply he went into a bank with a loaded gun ready to murder people to steal their life savings.

We have no idea what the OP's crime really was, and it was almost two decades ago. He has done his time and apparently been an exemplary citizen since then. This thread isn't about the OPs worth as a person, and we absolutely shouldn't be throwing his life and accomplishments down the toilet.

 

[Seth Joo]

To be fair, there are actually probably Caribbean schools lower down in the pecking order that would take this guys money.

The lower ones might, but when he has to go for clinical rotations, he is going to have problems. And as I said before, residency programs are going to see what he did.

 

[Gandyy]

Let's not go overboard here. There's no need to call the OP a terrible person, or to imply he went into a bank with a loaded gun ready to murder people to steal their life savings.

We have no idea what the OP's crime really was, and it was almost two decades ago. He has done his time and apparently been an exemplary citizen since then. This thread isn't about the OPs worth as a person, and we absolutely shouldn't be throwing his life and accomplishments down the toilet.

That post wasnt 100% directed at the OP. I was talking about the general "idea" of committing a 1st degree armed robbery and how it might be viewed by an admissions committee. I never said OP actually came in with a gun with intent to murder people but my point is that if he sends in an application, the committee is left to judge the situation how they see fit, and they might think that way. There is essentially a lot of room for interpretation for the committee.

If you notice at the bottom of the post, I have a disclaimer saying that it OP has refined himself.

 

[el_duderino]

That post wasnt 100% directed at the OP. I was talking about the general "idea" of committing a 1st degree armed robbery and how it might be viewed by an admissions committee. I never said OP actually came in with a gun with intent to murder people but my point is that if he sends in an application, the committee is left to judge the situation how they see fit, and they might think that way. There is essentially a lot of room for interpretation for the committee.

If you notice at the bottom of the post, I have a disclaimer saying that it OP has refined himself.

You edited it after you posted to add those last few lines. Regardless, my point stands whether you intended to come across that way or not.

 

[Gandyy]

You edited it after you posted to add those last few lines. Regardless, my point stands whether you intended to come across that way or not.

Yea, I edited right after I posted it because I realized how it may come across, and thats not what I intended to say.

Your post can stand however you want it to. My point is that a 1st degree armed robbery can be viewed in various different lights (probably in an extremely bad light), and that a person that commits a 1st degree armed robbery has extremely poor judgement. I also understand that OP has reformed himself and realizes how terrible of an act it was. I am not making statements of who the OP is, but rather what kind of person it takes to commit a 1st degree robbery.

 

[el_duderino]

Yea, I edited right after I posted it because I realized how it may come across, and thats not what I intended to say.

Your post can stand however you want it to. My point is that a 1st degree armed robbery can be viewed in various different lights (probably in an extremely bad light), and that a person that commits a 1st degree armed robbery has extremely poor judgement. I also understand that OP has reformed himself and realizes how terrible of an act it was.

Displayed extremely poor judgment at the time. That doesn't translate to necessarily having poor judgment, especially 18 years later. A person's character and qualities are not defined by one decision.

Saying someone "has poor judgment" because of one thing that happened 18 years ago is unfair, and really not within the scope of this thread.

It might seem nitpicky, but it's an important distinction to me.

 

[Seth Joo]

Getting into med school is only one hurdle anyway. Getting a residency spot is another, and is probably less likely than getting into school in the first place. Then getting licensed, then getting a job.

If does get into medical school, graduates, then residency programs realize he is a former convicted felon, they decide not to take him on that basis, he is now saddled with thousands of dollars of debt and no job.

A felony crime can be a wide range of offenses, even people who do not point a gun at others can wind up with a felony conviction, you have white collar criminals that are felons, but in all cases its going to be a serious issue.

 

[el_duderino]

If does get into medical school, graduates, then residency programs realize he is a former convicted felon, they decide not to take him on that basis, he is now saddled with thousands of dollars of debt and no job.

A felony crime can be a wide range of offenses, even people who do not point a gun at others can wind up with a felony conviction, but in all cases its going to be a serious issue.

Yes. And if he does a SMP in an attempt to get into med school, and doesn't, he will have spent a lot of money (and possibly sacrificed his career) already. That's before going into med school debt.

Trying to pursue a career in medicine would be extremely foolhardy for the OP, I think. That's just how it is.

 

[Gandyy]

Displayed extremely poor judgment at the time. That doesn't translate to necessarily having poor judgment, especially 18 years later. A person's character and qualities are not defined by one decision.

Saying someone "has poor judgment" because of one thing that happened 18 years ago is unfair, and really not within the scope of this thread.

It might seem nitpicky, but it's an important distinction to me.

Ok first of all, it depends on what the decision is. You cant just make a blanket statement like that. I believe in reform and change, but there is a limit where certain decisions are not forgivable.

Second, in OP's case, he says he realizes that it was stupid, and has reformed. He has a career now and is a good citizen. So good for him.

As for the "has poor judgement". If I were looking at OP's file and another kid's file who has no criminal record as an adcom, I would say OP has poorer judgement than the other candidate no matter how many years its been since he committed the felony.

 

[el_duderino]

If I were looking at OP's file and another kid's file who has no criminal record as an adcom, I would say OP has poorer judgement than the other candidate no matter how many years its been since he committed the felony.

I think that's grossly unfair and judgmental, but will let the matter drop.

 

[Gandyy]

I think that's grossly unfair and judgmental, but will let the matter drop.

No I agree with you. Up to a point, it kind of is unfair, but what is the adcom supposed to do? Put yourself in the adcom's shoes.

What would you do? Disregard the felony totally?