Serious question, Why are you going to dental schools above 400K?

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Why do y'all accept seats at schools that cost 400k+?

I'm not criticizing your decision i just want to understand. I really like dentistry, but i feel like it is not worth being in crazy debt for the next 20 years? I am wondering how the students who are attending these super expensive schools are rationalizing it?

I know the income potential is there in dentistry, but it is definitely not guaranteed. What are your plans?

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[Taba]

Idk, I guess nothing is guaranteed in life.. don't want waste another year to try so not guaranteed state school. In the end, utilizes what you have and have faith in yourself. Personal thoughts


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[dentite24]

I definitely do not believe that it is worth it. At a certain point there's got to be a cut off point with how much debt people can take on. Like you said, the pay out is not that guaranteed, especially with the future of dentistry looking more and more cooperate. This is especially true for people who are in their upper 20s or low 30s applying, the debt would probably just never end for them...
People should only be applying to state schools and quality OOS schools that have lowish tuition, maybe give scholarships to a fair amount of scholarships to incoming students, or maybe places that you can be in-state after a year or two. Most people get more interview invites than needed anyways and end up only going to 4-5 anyways... so all of the hassle and money put into applying to all of the other schools they applied to ends up being just a waste of money and thought, and just slows down there application timing to schools that they actually should have been focusing on.
These days, honestly, if you can't get in the first (and MAYBE second) time by just applying to like the 5 or 6 schools of $250-350,000 debt then I don't think dentistry is the right profession for you because it is just not worth all of that debt you have to spend years paying back. I would not have said this like 10 years ago probably. Dental school debt (with all of that interest on top of that) is just increasing way faster than the rate of 'guaranteed' salary money. Dentistry is much more of a risk than ever now and in the future.

 

[dentite24]

Boy how I wish there were more schools like the Texas dental schools, though... Very nice, very quality, reasonable enrolle stats, and SUPER worth it.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Boy how I wish there were more schools like the Texas dental schools, though... Very nice, very quality, reasonable enrolle stats, and SUPER worth it.

Yeah, i am very happy i am a Texas resident, if i didn't live in Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, or Alabama, I would not have even considered dentistry. Even with the additional years Medical school would have been a much better choice imo.

I guess i would probably apply to dental school if i only had a bio degree and like a 3.1, but there are still other careers more worthwhile.

I would rather be a hygienist or a nurse than have 400k+ in loans. I feel like the ROI is higher and quicker

 

[Roy Williams]

Yeah, i am very happy i am a Texas resident, if i didn't live in Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, or Alabama, I would not have even considered dentistry. Even with the additional years Medical school would have been a much better choice imo.

I guess i would probably apply to dental school if i only had a bio degree and like a 3.1, but there are still other careers more worthwhile.

I would rather be a hygienist or a nurse than have 400k+ in loans. I feel like the ROI is higher and quicker

What about NC tho...

 

[dentite24]

There are some other in-state schools that are worth it... I would say that most are, actually. Some state schools even give out scholarships to incoming students, which can make the expenses rival even texas dental schools at times (rare).
But, there are only a very small few of oos schools that are just barely worth it. In a few years, my mind set would probably be, good state school or bust. Or, yes, never consider dental in the first place and put all efforts into getting into med school...

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

What about NC tho...

True, sorry

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Unlike others in this thread, I believe that it is worth it. Rather, the "entry fee" for dentistry is increased compared to before, the career allows you a tremendous amount of income potential so long as you put in the time and work. I can't wait to graduate and get started on my master plan while everyone else complains about their opportunity cost to get there. At the end of the day it comes down to three things

1)Ease of specialization into the clinical or nonclinical dental fields
2)Learning through a medical curriculum rather than a head and neck curriculum
3)The name of the school (flame suit is on) and the research/volunteering/extracurricular activities attached to it

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Unlike others in this thread, I believe that it is worth it. Rather, the "entry fee" for dentistry is increased compared to before, the career allows you a tremendous amount of income potential so long as you put in the time and work. I can't wait to graduate and get started on my master plan while everyone else complains about their opportunity cost to get there. At the end of the day it comes down to three things

1)Ease of specialization into the clinical or nonclinical dental fields
2)Learning through a medical curriculum rather than a head and neck curriculum
3)The name of the school (flame suit is on) and the research/volunteering/extracurricular activities attached to it

So your master plan is to specialize?

Honestly wouldn't medical school have been a better bet if you want to specialize, income is important to you, and you want to learn about the full body as opposed to the head and neck?

Earning potential in medicine is definitely higher than dental, though there are other sacrifices.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

So your master plan is to specialize?

No

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

No

So then how does your schools name play a role.... I have literally never asked our known where my dentists went to school (except for my current one who is a part time faculty at my school next year).

 

[TheSandlapper]

Scholarships.

 

[deleted696582]

I'd venture to say most pre-dents don't even think about cost. As for the people on SDN, I could think of three common reasons.

- Their acceptances were all expensive schools.
- Scholarships or outside help with cost.
- They believe specialization rates, medical curriculums, or pass/fail grading is worth an extra $100k+.

At least people on SDN are aware of debt. My biggest concern is that people who go to an expensive school without a plan will be stuck in a cycle of huge monthly payments for 15-20 years. I'm sure everyone wants to own a practice, but the reality is that there will be many people who stick to corporate or as an associate most of their career. It's easy to think that you'll be a top earner, or see your income rise steadily throughout your career, but the posts mentioning unpredictability above are on to something. There's so much in life that cuts into finances such as houses, practice failure, families, or injuries, so I think it's always best practice to minimize your student debt load. At the end of the day, we all get the same degree (DDS/DMD), and those of us who are interested in specializing haven't even touched a handpiece or survived D1.

 

[fit2]

international student. kinda hard to find something "cheap" really

 

[845302]

I've always, and yet today, wanted to be a doctor - a surgeon specifically. Helping people in miraculous ways. Ever since my dad had Bypass surgery at Mayo Clinic when I was in grade 7 and I was firsthandedly able to see what these surgeons do, I was hooked. The more I learned, the more life taught me, I found that surgeons work unimaginable hours. The day my dad got surgery, the head surgeon was in the hospital working from 7 A.M. to 9 P.M. That's 14 hours!!! I just couldn't see myself working my behind off for those 14 hours! Above that they have personal obligations, like any other, along with who knows how much paperwork etc. etc. surgeons have to deal with... Hands down, surgeons are amongst the most amazing people in planet earth . I cherish time with family and I also like time to really. The reason I wanted to be one, and still do, is not for the work or the time that they have to work, but what they actually do - surgery and helping people in unimaginable ways.

However, when I first caught sight of dentistry, I was even more enamored. Doing "surgery"-like procedures on a daily basis, working manageable hours with little to no days of 10+ hours of work (but that depends on the practitioner) and the ability to help people in miraculous ways, just like a surgeon would. It is the perfect profession for me! Imo, if you especially work hard in your first 15 years out of school and grind away at that debt steadily, I think there is a chance of you going bankrupt, but I also believe there is a larger chance of not going bankrupt. Yes, it is one heck of a burden on my life having a little over 360k in debt hovering over my head like a cloud, but I believe that anyone can handle it. Yes, you won't be buying a BMW your first year out of college, and yes, you won't be making a crap ton to support your family, but it should be enough to live well. If you're smart and decisive, I think the risk of going bankrupt is less than the possibility of you getting out of it.

My dream job, but some risk? I would take that any day over any non-dream job

-Fyz

 

[breadsenpai]

Only place I got into. I already did a master and, right now, I'm doing a required course as a post-bac. That's two gap years already and I would like to specialize (so another 3 years of my life) so I didn't want to wait another year and reapply.

 

[kidsaremypassion]

Yeah, i am very happy i am a Texas resident, if i didn't live in Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, or Alabama, I would not have even considered dentistry. Even with the additional years Medical school would have been a much better choice imo.

I guess i would probably apply to dental school if i only had a bio degree and like a 3.1, but there are still other careers more worthwhile.

I would rather be a hygienist or a nurse than have 400k+ in loans. I feel like the ROI is higher and quicker

How I feel in a nutshell. As much as I love Peds, I realize that I've been very lucky that my parents happened to lay their professional roots in Texas. If I had ended up in another state with over double the tuition cost, I would likely be doing something that while I didn't enjoy as much as pediatric dentistry, would not result in such a high loan burden. I also wouldn't attend med school for 350k and up, either. At those rates, I'd probably default to nursing... Regardless of the path one chooses, it all comes down to what makes financial sense in the long term. It has to make financial sense in the long term.

 

[oralcare123]

Just want to be a dentist, regardless of the cost. I am nontraditional and saved for the school

 

[Medin2017]

So your master plan is to specialize?

Honestly wouldn't medical school have been a better bet if you want to specialize, income is important to you, and you want to learn about the full body as opposed to the head and neck?

Earning potential in medicine is definitely higher than dental, though there are other sacrifices.

Nope OMFS beats out every med specialty if you're in private practice. The average is 460 according to ADA (which is most likely an underestimation), and that's without working >40 hours per week. Plus it's easier to be top of dental class than med class (based on accepted enrollee statistics). Also all dental specialties are 40 or less work hours per week on average. Medical ones on average are much more except the most competitive ones (derm). But with dent, if you want to increase income, you can increase your hours.

 

[Medin2017]

So then how does your schools name play a role.... I have literally never asked our known where my dentists went to school (except for my current one who is a part time faculty at my school next year).

You probably shouldn't try to make this into another state school vs expensive ivy / p/f school. You will destroy your own thread. Also refer to the UF vs harvard thread or whichever since that's like the largest one without being an echo chamber of only "state school is best XD".

 

[I-hate-alginate]

You probably shouldn't try to make this into another state school vs expensive ivy / p/f school. You will destroy your own thread. Also refer to the UF vs harvard thread or whichever since that's like the largest one without being an echo chamber of only "state school is best XD".

Hi guys how are you doing? My name is Dr. Alginate, I graduated from Harvard 10 years ago.... said no doctor ever.

 

[Namelessking]

I'm in pretty much the same boat, deciding on whether or not to accept NYU's bloated, and frankly, disgusting tuition rate or turn my back on dentistry and go into accounting (yes accounting). I have no external help like many other middle-class applicants and I live about 1.5 hours away from NYU so I would very likely have to dorm. With interest rates, yearly tuition increases, increases in rent per year, NYU's 400k tuition becomes 480k. For those curious, it is possible to pay off a loan like this in 10 or so years provided you pay around 60,000 per year. But let than number sink in....$60k.....for 10 years of your life where you'll be near 40 by the time you've paid everything off. You can gamble at opening a practice and go several thousand more in debt. Or you could go the IBR route but just think, only in this country can you go into higher education and be chained to debt for 20+ years of your life. And don't forget the tax "bomb" at the end of those 20 years; Uncle Sam doesn't even want to give us a break on that after paying thousands for 20 years.

An associate dentist makes around 140-150k once they're competent I believe, less when they're starting out. Do your homework and decide which state you want to practice in and keep in mind what comes out of that salary - federal income tax, state and local tax, all the fica taxes, property taxes, etc. As an example in my state, New Yawk, a salary of 145,000 gets slashed down to about 92,000 after all those taxes. Pay 60k to your debt masters and you have around 30k. Minus rent in a studio apartment which runs at around 1k for a something decent and you have 18k left. Minus food, gas and all that maybe around 15k. So you still have a good amount of money to save or just fool around with. But corporate dental is horrid from what I hear and there are other career paths which let you do what you want with your money quicker and medical fields are not the only fields with high job security. Good luck to everyone and this great profession has certainly taken a turn for the worse.

 

[schmoob]

Nope OMFS beats out every med specialty if you're in private practice. The average is 460 according to ADA (which is most likely an underestimation), and that's without working >40 hours per week. Plus it's easier to be top of dental class than med class (based on accepted enrollee statistics). Also all dental specialties are 40 or less work hours per week on average. Medical ones on average are much more except the most competitive ones (derm). But with dent, if you want to increase income, you can increase your hours.

Do NOT underestimate your classmates. You will meet people who downright amaze you when it comes to academic performance. Chances are you will not be the smartest person in the room anymore.

I'm in pretty much the same boat, deciding on whether or not to accept NYU's bloated, and frankly, disgusting tuition rate or turn my back on dentistry and go into accounting (yes accounting). I have no external help like many other middle-class applicants and I live about 1.5 hours away from NYU so I would very likely have to dorm.

Dorm?
No.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

I'm in pretty much the same boat, deciding on whether or not to accept NYU's bloated, and frankly, disgusting tuition rate or turn my back on dentistry and go into accounting (yes accounting).

Do you have other dental school options to attend? In my opinion, accounting is starting to become very saturated and one would need connections to flourish in that career path. Almost all of my cousins work in the "big four" accounting firms in NYC and they know EVERYONE in upper management.

I have no external help like many other middle-class applicants and I live about 1.5 hours away from NYU so I would very likely have to dorm. With interest rates, yearly tuition increases, increases in rent per year, NYU's 400k tuition becomes 480k.

Assuming that you take out loans for all projected expenses proposed by NYU. If you live 1.5 hours away from NYU like I do, then you are underestimating the cheap rent prices 30-45 minutes away.

 

[Namelessking]

Do you have other dental school options to attend? In my opinion, accounting is starting to become very saturated and one would need connections to flourish in that career path. Almost all of my cousins work in the "big four" accounting firms in NYC and they know EVERYONE in upper management.



Assuming that you take out loans for all projected expenses proposed by NYU. If you live 1.5 hours away from NYU like I do, then you are underestimating the cheap rent prices 30-45 minutes away.

Well it would be 400k with me living at home. More than that if I rent a studio 30 or so minutes away. Factoring in yearly tuition increases, interest rates, and the like very easily bring it up to 400k and a bit over actually. But you are right about there being cheaper apartments in the city. They are fairly priced but the only thing is that to add any more on top of nyu's already insane tuition seems like financial suicide.

 

[Namelessking]

Do you have other dental school options to attend? In my opinion, accounting is starting to become very saturated and one would need connections to flourish in that career path. Almost all of my cousins work in the "big four" accounting firms in NYC and they know EVERYONE in upper management.



Assuming that you take out loans for all projected expenses proposed by NYU. If you live 1.5 hours away from NYU like I do, then you are underestimating the cheap rent prices 30-45 minutes away.

Luckily I got into a pretty fancy accounting school (top 10) as a back up. Regardless I have plans to work in accounting for only a few years and I would eventually phase into actuarial science.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

Luckily I got into a pretty fancy accounting school (top 10) as a back up. Regardless I have plans to work in accounting for only a few years and I would eventually phase into actuarial science.

Interesting you are thinking about becoming an actuary... maybe you will deal with dental insurance and hopefully you will promote higher coverage plans. Good luck, I heard actuary can be tough with the amount of mathematics needed.


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[customx]

Grabbed these off this thread on Dental Town: Dentaltown - Where The Dental Community Lives®
This is the expected total debt owed by the class of 2021 once you factor in increases in tuition, loan origination fees and accrued interested while in school. If you plan to pay back your $500k loan in 15 years at 5% interest you will be paying nearly $4,000 a month. Of course you can refinance your loan 1-2 years after graduation to get a lower interest rate or do PAYE, but you're still going to owe a massive amount of money for an extended period of time. It's better to be aware of these numbers before you start school so you know what you're dealing with down the road.

Midwestern IL University College of Dental Medicine $659,623
A.T. Still University-Arizona School of Dentistry and Oral Health $638,490
Midwestern AZ University College of Dental Medicine $638,336
New York University College of Dentistry $632,460
The Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC $595,503
University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine $573,278
University of the Pacific Arthur A. Dugoni School of Dentistry $567,055
Missouri School of Dentistry & Oral Health at ATSU $561,467
Loma Linda University School of Dentistry $551,701
Tufts University School of Dental Medicine $540,131
Western University of Health Sciences College of Dental Medicine $529,844
Case Western Reserve University School of Dental Medicine $529,082
Columbia University College of Dental Medicine $525,653
Creighton University School of Dentistry $524,510
Harvard School of Dental Medicine $518,668
Boston University Henry M. Goldman School of Dental Medicine $511,556
The University of Detroit Mercy School of Dentistry $509,905

 

[wengerout]

Yeah, i am very happy i am a Texas resident, if i didn't live in Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, or Alabama, I would not have even considered dentistry. Even with the additional years Medical school would have been a much better choice imo.

I guess i would probably apply to dental school if i only had a bio degree and like a 3.1, but there are still other careers more worthwhile.

I would rather be a hygienist or a nurse than have 400k+ in loans. I feel like the ROI is higher and quicker

I am gonna have to strongly disagree with you on this one. IMHO if you wouldn't consider dentistry if you didn't live in those four specific states your heart isn't in it and you should get out while you still can.

The parts of your post I bolded are especially telling. I don't mean offense but come on, you would apply to dental school with a bio degree and a 3.1? What exactly is that supposed to mean? I would only expect that kind of dig on my pre-med colleagues, not someone who wants to go into the profession.

Nursing and being a hygienist are not in the same stratosphere as being a dentist in terms of the nature of the job. I understand that more people are going corporate/settling to stay on as an associate but dentistry is supposed to attract people who in general don't like the prospect of working for/being limited by a boss as well as people who understand that they can maximize their earnings when they are in control of the buisness vs collecting a paycheck. I also call into question whether the ROI of being a hygienist of the course of an average adult life span is actually higher than the ROI of being a dentist, even if you go to one of the expensive schools.

 

[wengerout]

Why do y'all accept seats at schools that cost 400k+?

I'm not criticizing your decision i just want to understand. I really like dentistry, but i feel like it is not worth being in crazy debt for the next 20 years? I am wondering how the students who are attending these super expensive schools are rationalizing it?

I know the income potential is there in dentistry, but it is definitely not guaranteed. What are your plans?

It's simple really.

A girl from my same undergrad major is working in Atlanta for CDC I think? After four years at an SEC state school in a science major, she is making a grand total of 29k a year PRE-TAX.

While she could potentially work her way up the ladder, that salary is an absolute farce. Outside of certain branches of engineering and buisness, the upwards mobility in salary is not good for a majority of professions, even with a college degree.

There's a reason the average salary in the US is $50,756. Most people in this country will never even dream of getting close to the salaries dentist can produce.

While it it is true you can start out at $75,000 in buisness fresh out of school and reach some unprecedented salaries if you play your cards right//have connections, the work is not for everyone. I've seen first hand what my friend who works for PwC does, and I know I just wouldn't be happy with that kind of job, but it's different for everyone. Jobs like nursing (outside of some specialized branches) and dental hygienist have no real income mobility, as well as always at being at the mercy of your boss.

In conclusion, I choose dentistry because having owned a small buisness once already, there was no way I was going back to working making someone else rich for the rest of my life. I lucked out on the financial front but even had that not been the case I still would have chosen it even if I was staring the full 400-500k plus because the opportunity cost at this point is still worth it for me.

I don't doubt that the cost of schools are getting out of hand, and that eventually their will be a point where the ROI isn't worth it, but I don't think we are there yet. The way I see it working as a dentist for 10-15 years paying off the loans would be like making the same salary I would have made otherwise, except at the end of those 15 years my salary dramatically increases AND I don't have to worry about getting laid off.

 

[wengerout]

So your master plan is to specialize?

Honestly wouldn't medical school have been a better bet if you want to specialize, income is important to you, and you want to learn about the full body as opposed to the head and neck?

Earning potential in medicine is definitely higher than dental, though there are other sacrifices.

I think the difference here is exactly what you said at the end. OMFS residency sucks, but after residency your life is pretty great hours wise. In medicine, unless you get one of the ROAD specialties you're gonna have to choose between earning potential and life style.

 

[I-hate-alginate]

I think the difference here is exactly what you said at the end. OMFS residency sucks, but after residency your life is pretty great hours wise. In medicine, unless you get one of the ROAD specialties you're gonna have to choose between earning potential and life style.

Perspectives! Just like how OP prefers MD over OMFS and you vice versa, I believe that both MD/OMFS plans are a lose lose plans.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Most 22 year olds have no concept of what $100K actually is, and/or mommy and daddy are paying for everything.

Most 22 year olds don't know how much cost of living is outside the occasional starbucks coffee. Most don't know how insurance works, how phone bills work, etc.

To allow a 22 year old to sign up for 400k+ in student loan debt doesn't seem like a great idea. If it were me, I would require all prospective students to work for 2-4 years in the private sector before being granted access to federal funding. that way, people know how much money stuff is.

 

[wengerout]

Most 22 year olds have no concept of what $100K actually is, and/or mommy and daddy are paying for everything.

Most 22 year olds don't know how much cost of living is outside the occasional starbucks coffee. Most don't know how insurance works, how phone bills work, etc.

To allow a 22 year old to sign up for 400k+ in student loan debt doesn't seem like a great idea. If it were me, I would require all prospective students to work for 2-4 years in the private sector before being granted access to federal funding. that way, people know how much money stuff is.

Or you know, the government could tell schools "We are only covering up to 60k in COA, if your students can't afford to go there tough". I think you would magically see that a majority of schools would cut the fat to bring tuition cost back down.

 

[dentite24]

 

[GypsyHummus]

I have a feeling the student would take out private loans to cover the rest

Or you know, the government could tell schools "We are only covering up to 60k in COA, if your students can't afford to go there tough". I think you would magically see that a majority of schools would cut the fat to bring tuition cost back down.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I'm sure everyone wants to own a practice, but the reality is that there will be many people who stick to corporate or as an associate most of their career.

If that were to happen, the only fault is that of their own. If this is what people plan on doing with their degree, dentistry is not for you.

Factoring in interest rates at 6% a 300k loan @ 15 year repayment is a measly 2500$ a month. This is hardly crippling when it comes to furthering your own practice or raising your income. Not to mention you can easily refinance the rate when you are out of school

 

[wengerout]

I have a feeling the student would take out private loans to cover the rest

Except, and this is the critical difference, private loans are much more difficult to obtain than public loans. Many times you need good credit or a co-signer. Many more students would be apprehensive of taking them, and schools would be forced to abide by the laws of economics that the government has been protecting them from for so long.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

I am gonna have to strongly disagree with you on this one. IMHO if you wouldn't consider dentistry if you didn't live in those four specific states your heart isn't in it and you should get out while you still can.

The parts of your post I bolded are especially telling. I don't mean offense but come on, you would apply to dental school with a bio degree and a 3.1? What exactly is that supposed to mean? I would only expect that kind of dig on my pre-med colleagues, not someone who wants to go into the profession.

Nursing and being a hygienist are not in the same stratosphere as being a dentist in terms of the nature of the job. I understand that more people are going corporate/settling to stay on as an associate but dentistry is supposed to attract people who in general don't like the prospect of working for/being limited by a boss as well as people who understand that they can maximize their earnings when they are in control of the buisness vs collecting a paycheck. I also call into question whether the ROI of being a hygienist of the course of an average adult life span is actually higher than the ROI of being a dentist, even if you go to one of the expensive schools.

I'm not offended at all!

Let me explain a little bit if how I think though.

Every profession is a means for you to make a living. And why do we spend our time to make a living? So that we can do exactly that, live. So when it comes down to it, lifestyle is a very important piece of the puzzle to me. I have no disillusions of becoming a 10+ millionaire or anything like, but dentistry does allow a nice lifestyle, so I had it on my potential careers, along with all medicine, finance, and Psych I/O.

Then I considered the actual nature of the job. Could I see myself working 80+ weeks to make a decent to great income? No because then that living I wanted disappears if you think about it.

Could I see myself as a psychiatrist (my goal job heading to college) giving medication to patients I would have preferred to help in other ways, and very rarely seeing them succeed in their treatment for mental issues? No I couldn't live with that.

So it left medical school, dentistry, and my dad's job that starts at 65k + a 15k sign on and caps off at 130k in around 4-6 years. I loved dentistry and all the different aspects, and after putting in the lot years to residency and things like that, plus the extra enjoyment vs medicine I picked dentistry over applying med.

That being said if I'm honest I wanted to do my dad's job and he told me no...

So there's my mindset. I don't feel "called" into dentistry or anything like that. It's a profession, one I do happen to really like, bit a profession all the same.

I like dentistry the most, but I also like medicine, nursing, hygiene, psych careers, and all the other jobs out there. So if any of them combined to give more worth in my mind to dentistry i would have done them.

Autonomy, owning a business, that stuff is part of the pie, I wouldn't risk everything for it though.

EDIT: Sorry I browser SDN on mobile and pressed post on accident, so only half my reply was written. It's updated now.

 

[schmoob]

Or you know, the government could tell schools "We are only covering up to 60k in COA, if your students can't afford to go there tough". I think you would magically see that a majority of schools would cut the fat to bring tuition cost back down.

No. You would likely see more international students, or lower admissions statistics. You'd be surprised how many students do not take out loans.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Nope OMFS beats out every med specialty if you're in private practice. The average is 460 according to ADA (which is most likely an underestimation), and that's without working >40 hours per week. Plus it's easier to be top of dental class than med class (based on accepted enrollee statistics). Also all dental specialties are 40 or less work hours per week on average. Medical ones on average are much more except the most competitive ones (derm). But with dent, if you want to increase income, you can increase your hours.

Does OMFS beat out every medical residency though?

I would agree that earnings wise it's probably in the top. Along with anesthesiologists ~ 400k, invasive cardiologist ~450-500k, and derm ~400k.

Derm has very similar hours to dentistry as well. I would choose derm over OMFS but that's probably it, so if you say it's the best specialty I would say you might be right.

But what about the difficulty of getting in.

I don't know the stats on this, but how many people get into an OMFS program from each dental school? Some have none, I think the highest has like 6-8 right? (Someone please correct me). But usually you have to be like top-5 in your class to have a confident chance.

In medical school there's a lot more P/F and your step scores play a big role. Even if you aren't in the top-10 you've got a good chance I'd you have everything else necessary, and there are so many top level specialties. You have more of a chance of becoming one of those in med school, than of becoming an OMFS.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Perspectives! Just like how OP prefers MD over OMFS and you vice versa, I believe that both MD/OMFS plans are a lose lose plans.

I do think so as well, hence why I have no desire to specialize, but between the two goals I would rather pursue the MD

 

[Medin2017]

Does OMFS beat out every medical residency though?

I would agree that earnings wise it's probably in the top. Along with anesthesiologists ~ 400k, invasive cardiologist ~450-500k, and derm ~400k.

Derm has very similar hours to dentistry as well. I would choose derm over OMFS but that's probably it, so if you say it's the best specialty I would say you might be right.

But what about the difficulty of getting in.

I don't know the stats on this, but how many people get into an OMFS program from each dental school? Some have none, I think the highest has like 6-8 right? (Someone please correct me). But usually you have to be like top-5 in your class to have a confident chance.

In medical school there's a lot more P/F and your step scores play a big role. Even if you aren't in the top-10 you've got a good chance I'd you have everything else necessary, and there are so many top level specialties. You have more of a chance of becoming one of those in med school, than of becoming an OMFS.

Look if you think beating out top med students is easier than beating out top dental students idk what to say. And ya the derm vs omfs would be opinion based but I would choose omfs AND it's easier to get in. Derm still works 40+ hrs but their average is 70k lower according to med scape vs Ada, and all the dentists on sdn seem to say Ada is largely an underestimation. Not to mention many omfs split days at the hospital and private practice, further lowering the average by choice alone. If you went full t and t, the income would only be greater, although you may be more bored. And i would bet derm is way less "fun" than some of the more intense med specialties, just like shucking wizzies may not be as fun as repairing a blown up face.

 

[Medin2017]

Do NOT underestimate your classmates. You will meet people who downright amaze you when it comes to academic performance. Chances are you will not be the smartest person in the room anymore.

Dorm?
No.

Not underestimating at all. But a 3.5-3.7 average vs a 3.85+ (meds) would undoubtedly be easier to "outcompete" even if there are still many smarter than me. It's simple stats. Not to mention in my hometown, all the kids who were extremely type a or hard working went into med. Very few dental.

 

[tyjacobs]

Why do y'all accept seats at schools that cost 400k+?

I'm not criticizing your decision i just want to understand. I really like dentistry, but i feel like it is not worth being in crazy debt for the next 20 years? I am wondering how the students who are attending these super expensive schools are rationalizing it?

I know the income potential is there in dentistry, but it is definitely not guaranteed. What are your plans?

to specialize

 

[deleted696582]

If that were to happen, the only fault is that of their own. If this is what people plan on doing with their degree, dentistry is not for you.

Factoring in interest rates at 6% a 300k loan @ 15 year repayment is a measly 2500$ a month. This is hardly crippling when it comes to furthering your own practice or raising your income. Not to mention you can easily refinance the rate when you are out of school

Yeah it's on the individual to make the right decision. But I don't think it's anyone's fault if they choose to work corporate or as an associate most of their career. Not everyone is comfortable with running a business. Saying that dentistry isn't for someone who goes those routes is a bit much. It's just difficult for the people with huge amounts of debt, where a fixed income won't offer much room for personal financial growth.

Your example deals with 300k of debt - that's a manageable amount. Those people are fine. It's the ones taking out larger amounts that will have a difficult time whether or not they are starting a private practice. Or people with debt from undergrad.

Thought experiment - someone with 450k of debt on a 15 year repayment plan. That's $3,800 a month for student debt. If they make $140,000 right out of school in one of the 41 states with income tax (say Arizona), their post-tax income is $96,000, or $8,000 a month. After student loan payments that's $4,200 to live on. Average mortgage for an earner in that range is $1,200. Now they have $3,000 to live on. Here's the interesting part. Want a practice? Practice loans are usually 7-12 years. Loans can be 500k. That's 4.6k a month for 12 years. Banks will give you a year of interest-only payments, which would be 2k a month. You now have $1,000 a month to live on for that first year, so if you have a family, want cars, want vacations, or want to live the dentist lifestyle, you'd better start making some big money at your practice. I did a similar breakdown in this post (Dental School and Debt).

It's all hypothetical in the end. You can probably think of some alternatives to the example above. Plenty of people will be just fine with lots of debt. I just like to encourage people to take on less debt if possible.

 

[oralcare123]

I'm in pretty much the same boat, deciding on whether or not to accept NYU's bloated, and frankly, disgusting tuition rate or turn my back on dentistry and go into accounting (yes accounting). I have no external help like many other middle-class applicants and I live about 1.5 hours away from NYU so I would very likely have to dorm. With interest rates, yearly tuition increases, increases in rent per year, NYU's 400k tuition becomes 480k. For those curious, it is possible to pay off a loan like this in 10 or so years provided you pay around 60,000 per year. But let than number sink in....$60k.....for 10 years of your life where you'll be near 40 by the time you've paid everything off. You can gamble at opening a practice and go several thousand more in debt. Or you could go the IBR route but just think, only in this country can you go into higher education and be chained to debt for 20+ years of your life. And don't forget the tax "bomb" at the end of those 20 years; Uncle Sam doesn't even want to give us a break on that after paying thousands for 20 years.

An associate dentist makes around 140-150k once they're competent I believe, less when they're starting out. Do your homework and decide which state you want to practice in and keep in mind what comes out of that salary - federal income tax, state and local tax, all the fica taxes, property taxes, etc. As an example in my state, New Yawk, a salary of 145,000 gets slashed down to about 92,000 after all those taxes. Pay 60k to your debt masters and you have around 30k. Minus rent in a studio apartment which runs at around 1k for a something decent and you have 18k left. Minus food, gas and all that maybe around 15k. So you still have a good amount of money to save or just fool around with. But corporate dental is horrid from what I hear and there are other career paths which let you do what you want with your money quicker and medical fields are not the only fields with high job security. Good luck to everyone and this great profession has certainly taken a turn for the worse.

This is probably the tenth similar post, I've read on the same topic
If you borrow more it only means that you need to work harder to pay it off, not that you are going to be miserable till you are 40.
You will have to gain all the knowledge and all the skills during DS to become "competent" a couple of weeks into your practice and not a couple of years.
Just make sure you really want to be a dentist, because nothing is worse, then realizing that you are stuck working the job you hate to pay off loans

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Not underestimating at all. But a 3.5-3.7 average vs a 3.85+ (meds) would undoubtedly be easier to "outcompete" even if there are still many smarter than me. It's simple stats. Not to mention in my hometown, all the kids who were extremely type a or hard working went into med. Very few dental.

Doing a very quick search, the average applicant to medical school in 2016-2017 had a 3.55, and the average matriculant had a 3.70.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

Secondly, when you are competing at the top of your class, you are competing against people who easily could have done either medicine or dentistry. You're not competing against the person who barely got in and is struggling to keep up with course work, individuals who exist in both medical school and dental school btw.

Lastly, if you are using college GPA as a measure of intelligence, then you lose all credibility in my mind.

I would wager it is Jessie to stay in the top 20 of your medical school class and get a good specialty, than it is to get into OMFS.

Lastly you can't use the adeas guide and then use medspaces to compare salaries, that's not going to be accurate. Honestly there is no accurate estimation for salary available online, I do know OMFS make 450+, but derms make 400+ as well.

 

[Medin2017]

Doing a very quick search, the average applicant to medical school in 2016-2017 had a 3.55, and the average matriculant had a 3.70.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

Secondly, when you are competing at the top of your class, you are competing against people who easily could have done either medicine or dentistry. You're not competing against the person who barely got in and is struggling to keep up with course work, individuals who exist in both medical school and dental school btw.

Lastly, if you are using college GPA as a measure of intelligence, then you lose all credibility in my mind.

I would wager it is Jessie to stay in the top 20 of your medical school class and get a good specialty, than it is to get into OMFS.

Lastly you can't use the adeas guide and then use medspaces to compare salaries, that's not going to be accurate. Honestly there is no accurate estimation for salary available online, I do know OMFS make 450+, but derms make 400+ as well.

Well if they're both underestimations, I would pick the one making 470 over the one making 390.

To your comment about competing, of course the ones at the top can do both (I was between the 2 and could easily have went med if I wanted). But the ones at the TIP TOP would be stronger in medicine in general. I am from a pretty academically rigorous district and know some really smart cookies in both dental and med, who probably each could be in the top 25% at both dent and med. However the smart med students I know were pushed since they were elementary schoolers to study their butts off, consistently had tutors for 10+ years, and had SAT scores of like 2300+. Their parents put constant pressure, and they went to prestigious undergrads and then to strong med schools. Parents that are extremely helicopter or strict never push their kids towards dental- it's usually an individual choice since its reputation is seen as more "relaxed" and "less prestigious". None of my predental friends were ever like this, including those with DAT scores of 25+ and 4.0s. One is also at the top of his class in dental school. I must say that dents often underestimate how type A some of the top med students are. I had one doctor I shadowed tell me his son was trying to go into a 7 year program (3 + 4 years md), but when he went to interview, he saw a bunch of kids whose parents were trying to prep them for this program since they were in 6th grade (the dad was talking to other parents there). And take a look at the premed forums vs the predental ones if you want to get high blood pressure and see people with 4.0s and 517+s freak out about chances or ask if they have enough publications to get into a top med school.

And GPA may not measure intelligence, but it sure as hell measures hard work or consistency or "type A"-ness of the applicant. And don't wanna keep up this MD vs dent thing, but the MCAT is harder than the DAT, they require more service than dental, and research is required if you wanna land a good med school. If you think that a class of 100 with an average of 3.75 is not gonna be GENERALLY harder working or "more intelligent" than a class with 3.55-3.6, idk what to say. I can say a no name medical school with a 3.6 average is generally smarter than harvard med school students and completely ignore GPA and MCAT averages, but that would be kind of foolish of me.