Several failing grades, is there any hope?

[FinalFantasy77]

:|

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[Aquinas]

Are you opposed to DO?

 

[masaraksh]

Not gonna happen. I honestly don't think you should pursue this. You'll spend a ****-ton of time broke and accruing debt trying to prove that you've changed your ways. Then you'll spend ~7-11 years in medical training even more broke and in debt. Find something else that'll make you happy would be my advice.

 

[cj93]

As far as I know, when you apply to medical schools, they ask for every grade you have received in order to assign you with a cumulative GPA. Therefore they most likely do not have the same policy as your undergraduate college in which some take the higher grade or take the average between the two in order to form a cGPA. Therefore these failing grades you have received would bring down your GPA quite a bit.

A possibility of "fixing" this is to show them that you've changed by enrolling and getting at least A-'s in prereq med school courses such as genchem, genbio, ochem, calc, etc. An upward trend in grades is looked highly upon by medical schools as classes generally become more difficult. An extra option is to try to obtain great extracurriculars and/or complete a Post-bac program in the sciences in order to show that you have improved and are able to carry the workload of a medical student.

 

[FinalFantasy77]

:|

 

[Conflagration]

Hello. I'm a Math major- which is certainly a pain in the ass if you don't enjoy the subject.

Have you heard of a DO before?

DOs are practicing physicians that go through an alternate but very similar application cycle. AACOMAS (the institution that runs the application service) considers your grades differently. Math classes are NOT a part of the science GPA for DOs, and if you retake a course and do better, they will replace your old grade with the new one.

So, DO would be by far the faster path. If you need help in a few of the statistics, PM me.

 

[Blue Blood]

I don't even think DO schools will touch you with grade replacement. Way too much of a risk.

And with a track record like yours you'll need to use a lot more than elbow grease to get yourself in the position to pull 3.9 gpa semesters the rest of your college career.

You won't pull a 35 eq. either.
Sdn isn't a big fan of hypotheticals. Words are easy. Actions are not.

 

[FinalFantasy77]

:|

 

[Blue Blood]

Well, those F's were a result of me literally not stepping foot in the classroom, not taking any tests, and not turning in any homework. I literally signed up for the classes and never walked in.

Which shows even more immaturity.

 

[Kochanie]

Well, those F's were a result of me literally not stepping foot in the classroom, not taking any tests, and not turning in any homework. I literally signed up for the classes and never walked in.

Why would you do that... Listen, I had my fair share of Cs, but I never once didn't take a test/not turn in work.

 

[Chansey]

You will need to show complete academic dominance from now on. Get straight A's. Don't even settle for A minuses - you can no longer afford any grades below a 4.0. Do you think you can do this? If you can, there will be hope - but no guarantee of admission into medical school (though no one is guaranteed entrance).

Be prepared to sacrifice your social life. The instant you start to struggle in class, get outside help. This will be a tough, tough road. Good luck!

 

[Silverflash]

The hard truth is that MD is going to be nearly impossible for you. It would take years of exemplary performance in a post-bacc and even then it's so unlikely I don't think it's worth considering.

DO grade replacement is your only chance, but even then, 11 F's is... a very large number. If you're committed, get starting retaking those classes, but my personal recommendation would be to pursue another career.

I wish you the best of luck, whatever you decide.

 

[Blue Blood]

Maybe I'm really mean or you guys are just really nice. No adcom, including DO, will touch this person.
I live in a land of reality. This person would literally have to repeat 3 years worth of classes with grade replacement on top of the 2 more to finish a degree.

None of this is going to happen. Find another calling.

 

[Blue Blood]

I imagine OP, if you have a large number of Fs, you have a large number of Cs as well?

 

[FinalFantasy77]

:|

 

[Doug Underhill]

Eh, people have failed out before, found themselves, and gotten into medical school. Failing out with 11 Fs probably isn't much worse than failing out with 5 Fs.

It's definitely an uphill battle, though. Why do you think you'll do better this time?

 

[FinalFantasy77]

:|

 

[amazing tekkers]

I told you, I was an idiot. I had some "personal" issues, but there's no excuse. I was just an irresponsible idiot.

In all honesty, I'm not sure if medical school is in your future. Have you considered other fields?

 

[Blue Blood]

I don't have a large number is C's, 1 other. And you're saying I'd have to go to school for 5 years?

So you pulled that many fs and did it for multiple semesters just not trying?

And you have 2 years to complete your degree as you said. Plus retaking those fs and that c. You're looking at 12 classes. I imaging some of those are 4 credits. 16 credits a semester so another year or two of grade replacement. Your looking at a long time and there are tons and tons of maybes here.

I don't see it happening. Just being honest.

 

[FinalFantasy77]

:|

 

[Kochanie]

I'm not sure why medical school is out of the question. If OP retook every F and got an A, he could have a decent GPA for DO...

Just work your ass off and see where you are after next semester.

 

[FinalFantasy77]

:|

 

[jl lin]

Hello. I'm a Math major- which is certainly a pain in the ass if you don't enjoy the subject.

Have you heard of a DO before?

DOs are practicing physicians that go through an alternate but very similar application cycle. AACOMAS (the institution that runs the application service) considers your grades differently. Math classes are NOT a part of the science GPA for DOs, and if you retake a course and do better, they will replace your old grade with the new one.

So, DO would be by far the faster path. If you need help in a few of the statistics, PM me.

Seriously, for DO's they don't calc in math for the sGPA? Why not?

 

[masaraksh]

Well, those F's were a result of me literally not stepping foot in the classroom, not taking any tests, and not turning in any homework. I literally signed up for the classes and never walked in.

Yeah, i'm no adcom but sounds like a deal breaker.

 

[Conflagration]

Seriously, for DO's they don't calc in math for the sGPA? Why not?

I heard it through the grapevine at pre-osteo since my GPA kind of sucks (although, sadly for me, the math made it look better, so that's par for the course).

My source is here, and in the second to last paragraph at the bottom, it says:

"AACOMAS will calculate your GPA and credit hours according to the following rules -- GPAs and credit hours will be calculated for Science, Non-Science and All course work. Science GPAs include Biology/Zoology, Biochemistry, Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Other Science, and Physics. Non-science GPAs include Behavioral Science, English, Math, and Other Non-science."

 

[Blue Blood]

I can respect that. So 3 years of school.

To be honest, there isn't a time limit on my degree. The plan is to basically take classes till I have a cGPA > 3.0 and I guess retake all the F's. I apologize for the redundancy but, the clear question is IF I were to get solid A's, maybe a B sprinkled here and there every semester or every other semester, for 3 years, you're saying it's impossible for a SMP to accept me? With a MCAT on the new equivalent to a 35 on the old MCAT as well. You don't think I would've proven myself to them after that? And then a strong performance in the SMP, you still don't think it's possible? Even after the fact I changed majors. After the fact I'm going to a new school. Even the fact that between my last semester and my upcoming semester it's been a year and a half? After a strong performance that doesn't show a bit of soul searching, a bit of "academic baptism" going on?

You might have a case for "I found myself later in life" but I have no experience with grade replacement and how it works.

If you pulled off all these hypotheticals you may have a shot at DO if all those Fs can be replaced with As. I think this is highly unlikely though if not a pipe dream.

That said OP, you must understand your history doesn't exactly fit with the "life long learner" motto of medicine. You realize it pretty much will never stop right?

 

[jl lin]

With my new found major I managed to lose all motivation in scholastics and barfed up 11 F's, bringing my cGPA down to a 2.1

...I can respect that. So 3 years of school.

To be honest, there isn't a time limit on my degree. The plan is to basically take classes till I have a cGPA > 3.0 and I guess retake all the F's. I apologize for the redundancy but, the clear question is IF I were to get solid A's, maybe a B sprinkled here and there every semester or every other semester, for 3 years, you're saying it's impossible for a SMP to accept me? With a MCAT on the new equivalent to a 35 on the old MCAT as well. You don't think I would've proven myself to them after that? And then a strong performance in the SMP, you still don't think it's possible? Even after the fact I changed majors. After the fact I'm going to a new school. Even the fact that between my last semester and my upcoming semester it's been a year and a half? After a strong performance that doesn't show a bit of soul searching, a bit of "academic baptism" going on?

OK, I guess I am wondering why you didn't seek help or pull the plug way before the 11th F? Not showing up 11x's and not dropping or doing a W--just kept doing that? IDK. Hope you are pretty young, b/c it shows bad judgment. Wow. You have a long way to go, and maybe you will get in somewhere if you keep straight and steady and do a complete 180 and jump well through all the hoops. Your nose is really going to be to that grindstone, and you probably won't be able to pull it up to smell any roses for a very long time. Well, regardless of what you decide, good luck.

 

[jl lin]

I heard it through the grapevine at pre-osteo since my GPA kind of sucks (although, sadly for me, the math made it look better, so that's par for the course).

My source is here, and in the second to last paragraph at the bottom, it says:

"AACOMAS will calculate your GPA and credit hours according to the following rules -- GPAs and credit hours will be calculated for Science, Non-Science and All course work. Science GPAs include Biology/Zoology, Biochemistry, Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Other Science, and Physics. Non-science GPAs include Behavioral Science, English, Math, and Other Non-science."

That's a bit of a bummer; I guess more so for some than others. Just don't get why math wouldn't be calculated in with the science, since it's integral to a lot of science--and except for some of that far out theoretical stuff--it's something that is readably testable. I mean, it's its own tool for testing things. :

 

[Conflagration]

That's a bit of a bummer; I guess more so for some than others. Just don't get why math wouldn't be calculated in with the science, since it's integral to a lot of science--and accept for some of that far out theoretical stuff--it's something and more readably testable. I mean, it's its own tool for testing things. :

Dude, I was a math major doing well for myself. I still need to take some pre-req's, but since I have a lot of AP credit, my AACOMAS science GPA only has like 2 classes in it.

C'est la vie, though. ^^;

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

Honestly OP, this is not a good idea. Trying to make a comeback from 11 F's is.. almost as foolish as not attending classes and receiving F's instead of W's; the competition is getting more stiff every year (high schoolers are intimidating these days). Do realize that there are other professions where you can "serve others:" nurse, cna, scribe, EMT, social worker, phlebotomist, PA, psychologist). Moreover, most physicians are not rich, and there are many other things you can do to make money; remember that. Once again, if you go into this profession with the notion that you, with absolute certainty, will get rich, you are lying to yourself or misinformed (correct me, anyone, if I am misrepresenting the profession). Do not listen to other pre-meds who talk about physicians being rich and having a "Grey's Anatomy lifestyle." Being a doctor is hard, and you will work yourself into vegetable to earn every penny.

Now,
Have you shadowed any physicians?
Have you conducted any research?
Have you you volunteered clinical and or non-clinical?
Are you ready to study almost every waking hour of the day to make this comeback?
Are you ready to slay the MCAT?
OP, please understand this undertaking is gargantuan; not impossible, but improbable.


Because you seem adamant about MD, I need to stress to you that the average accepted student applies with a 3.6.
As spoken above, you will have to completely decimate these courses. You will have to be a total badass like @DoctorLacrosse.
You will have to ace EVERYTHING. No A-.

This scenario reminds me of a cliche movie line where one actor says, "He might be crazy enough to do this."

 

[jl lin]

Dude, I was a math major doing well for myself. I still need to take some pre-req's, but since I have a lot of AP credit, my AACOMAS science GPA only has like 2 classes in it.

C'est la vie, though. ^^;

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

Honestly OP, this is not a good idea. Trying to make a comeback from 11 F's is.. almost as foolish as not attending classes and receiving F's instead of W's; the competition is getting more stiff every year (high schoolers are intimidating these days). Do realize that there are other professions where you can "serve others:" nurse, cna, scribe, EMT, social worker, phlebotomist, PA, psychologist). Moreover, most physicians are not rich, and there are many other things you can do to make money; remember that. Once again, if you go into this profession with the notion that you, with absolute certainty, will get rich, you are lying to yourself or misinformed (correct me, anyone, if I am misrepresenting the profession). Do not listen to other pre-meds who talk about physicians being rich and having a "Grey's Anatomy lifestyle." Being a doctor is hard, and you will work yourself into vegetable to earn every penny.

Now,
Have you shadowed any physicians?
Have you conducted any research?
Have you you volunteered clinical and or non-clinical?
Are you ready to study almost every waking hour of the day to make this comeback?
Are you ready to slay the MCAT?
OP, please understand this undertaking is gargantuan; not impossible, but improbable.


Because you seem adamant about MD, I need to stress to you that the average accepted student applies with a 3.6.
As spoken above, you will have to completely decimate these courses. You will have to be a total badass like @DoctorLacrosse.
You will have to ace EVERYTHING. No A-.

This scenario reminds me of a cliche movie line where one actor says, "He might be crazy enough to do this."

thanks for the positive shout out since I've been mentioned, ill chime in...

OP, I have been in your shoes. you have it a bit worse than I did, but I can relate to that helpless, lost feeling you're going through. if you are serious about this, and I mean SERIOUS, then I think it's possible. I never liked all the people who told me it was impossible, but I understood where they were coming from. the road is long and more mentally taxing than you can imagine, but I made it happen because I was willing to do whatever it took.

your current plan sounds good. if you are gung-ho MD, then you'll need A's until you're >3.0 and a killer MCAT for a shot at a high-linkage SMP. my suggestion is to go research the DO route, and look into grade replacement. I think a full year of replacing all those F's with A's and then finishing your degree strong puts you in good shape for that option.

At the end of the day, you know what needs to be done in order for you to succeed. If you truly want this more than anything else, then you have the power to control what happens next. will you fold under the pressure, or will you rise to levels you can't even currently see yourself rising to? if you want some inspiration, check out my comeback thread, and feel free to PM me if I can be of any help.

You can do this, just know that the road will be tough, but impossible is nothing, my friend. Despite our differing situations, I like to think I'm somewhat proof of that. Best of luck moving forward.

 

[zero0]

It's possible. You seem to know what needs to be done. Retake failed classes with an A, ace the MCAT, and do an SMP. Assuming you're truly committed and can manage the years worth of hard work required to fix your record, you'll be live for DO. Allopathic on the other hand... Hell, if you have the money, it won't hurt to apply.

 

[Afford]

I would try emailing the deans of admissions of DO schools and ask how they see that many F's even with retakes.

 

[Doug Underhill]

Why would he need to retake the courses AND do a SMP? If he retakes the courses and gets an A, he'll have a high AACOMAS GPA, period.

 

[Goro]

Not true. DO schools by their DNA are very receptive to reinvention. I have seen applicants who have very similar histories to OP.

OP, you will need to retake every F/D/C science coursework and then let grade replacement do its magic. Then do well on the MCAT.

For MD schools, you're in for a tougher ride. I would recommend acing everything from now on, and then taking a SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Then ace the MCAT (33+ equivalent on the new version)

The key thing is to demonstrate by deeds, not words, that the you of now is not the you of then.

I don't even think DO schools will touch you with grade replacement. Way too much of a risk.

And with a track record like yours you'll need to use a lot more than elbow grease to get yourself in the position to pull 3.9 gpa semesters the rest of your college career.

You won't pull a 35 eq. either.
Sdn isn't a big fan of hypotheticals. Words are easy. Actions are not.

 

[Blue Blood]

Not true. DO schools by their DNA are very receptive to reinvention. I have seen applicants who have very similar histories to OP.

OP, you will need to retake every F/D/C science coursework and then let grade replacement do its magic. Then do well on the MCAT.

For MD schools, you're in for a tougher ride. I would recommend acing everything from now on, and then taking a SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Then ace the MCAT (33+ equivalent on the new version)

The key thing is to demonstrate by deeds, not words, that the you of now is not the you of then.

I'm not familiar at all with grade replacement. As an adcom, can you see that they had grades replaced?

Also, wouldn't the 11 Fs (so probably 3-4 semesters of just not showing up, etc) be an instant No at most schools if it was relatively recent. I could understand 7+ years down the road with some life experience you could convince adcoms you're a changed person, but 3-4 years seems like that tarnished record would still haunt the OP.

 

[ridethecliche]

I'm not familiar at all with grade replacement. As an adcom, can you see that they had grades replaced?

Also, wouldn't the 11 Fs (so probably 3-4 semesters of just not showing up, etc) be an instant No at most schools if it was relatively recent. I could understand 7+ years down the road with some life experience you could convince adcoms you're a changed person, but 3-4 years seems like that tarnished record would still haunt the OP.

This is why you should stop giving any advice till you know wtf you're talking about.

 

[Blue Blood]

This is why you should stop giving any advice till you know wtf you're talking about.

It doesn't take an adcom to realize that 11 Fs are bad. Very bad.
And retaking 11 of them is possible but not probable. Especially when you're jumping schools and course numbering doesn't match.

I don't think anyone on here has ever retaken years and years worth of classes with grade replacement so no one is likely to have this background you speak of.

 

[ridethecliche]

It doesn't take an adcom to realize that 11 Fs are bad. Very bad.
And retaking 11 of them is possible but not probable. Especially when you're jumping schools and course numbering doesn't match.

I don't think anyone on here has ever retaken years and years worth of classes with grade replacement so no one is likely to have this background you speak of.

Earlier in the thread, you told the OP that they had no shot at DO schools even with grade replacement. Later, you commented that you weren't familiar with DO Grade replacement and how it factored in or even if adcomms could see the old grades.

Just quit while you're ahead and stop giving bad information especially when you've admitted to not knowing what you're talking about.

The bolded part has nothing to do with anything here.

 

[altblue]

Well, those F's were a result of me literally not stepping foot in the classroom, not taking any tests, and not turning in any homework. I literally signed up for the classes and never walked in.

I don't know the circumstances behind it, but if you never went to them, you may be able to retroactively withdraw.

 

[Blue Blood]

Earlier in the thread, you told the OP that they had no shot at DO schools even with grade replacement. Later, you commented that you weren't familiar with DO Grade replacement and how it factored in or even if adcomms could see the old grades.

Just quit while you're ahead and stop giving bad information especially when you've admitted to not knowing what you're talking about.

The bolded part has nothing to do with anything here.

I said i wasn't THAT familiar. I can still read AACOM guidelines as can anyone. They don't guarantee grade replacement on classes as per their website and many times courses are not replaced, especially with uni jumping and course numbers not matching as in the case of OP. Their failures came after two years of basic classes and these classes are upper level Stat classes I'm guessing and not easy gen ed classes.

So you would advise OP to take 2 years to finish his/her degree, then take another 1.5-2.5 years to do grade replacement on classes they've taken with the possibility that some of those Fs will not be replaced?

Maybe my advice is bad to you and others, but I do have valid points that may mean the OP may waste years of their life. Also, there are tons and tons of IFs in OP's situation. All of which need to come true for them to even have the slightest chance.

 

[Goro]

We see all grades on transcripts, and all MCAT scores too.

Things need to be taken in context. Uneven performance where an applicant has As mixed with any poor grades (F/D/Cs) right up to the app submission process will be a app killer.

A whole bunch of Fs, followed by straight As will be a sign that the candidate has overcome whatever it was that caused all the Fs. I'm talking about at least two years worth of good grades. I'd want to see more evidence that the candidate can follow through after just a single years of great grades, either in a post-bac, or better yet, a SMP.

Good grades followed by a string of bad grades will also be an app killer.

Capeesh?

DO schools allow for grade replacement, MD schools will average.

I'm not familiar at all with grade replacement. As an adcom, can you see that they had grades replaced?

Also, wouldn't the 11 Fs (so probably 3-4 semesters of just not showing up, etc) be an instant No at most schools if it was relatively recent. I could understand 7+ years down the road with some life experience you could convince adcoms you're a changed person, but 3-4 years seems like that tarnished record would still haunt the OP.

Yes, exactly that.
So you would advise OP to take 2 years to finish his/her degree, then take another 1.5-2.5 years to do grade replacement on classes they've taken with the possibility that some of those Fs will not be replaced?

 

[Blue Blood]

Oh and 8 years of full time undergrad is bound to raise a few flags as well...

Advising someone to follow their dreams is admirable, but if all those IFs don't come true, OP can be financially and educationally screwed for the rest of their life..

Edit: I'm not an adcom, i just have my own intuition and it says this is likely to be a train wreck.. Ill pull myself from this one. If my advise was bad I apologize.

 

[Goro]

I've seen applicants repeat entire UG degrees! We accept them when they excel the 2nd time around.

I don't think anyone on here has ever retaken years and years worth of classes with grade replacement so no one is likely to have this background you speak of.

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

Oh and 8 years of full time undergrad is bound to raise a few flags as well...

Advising someone to follow their dreams is admirable, but if all those IFs don't come true, OP can be financially and educationally screwed for the rest of their life..

Edit: I'm not an adcom, i just have my own intuition and it says this is likely to be a train wreck.. Ill pull myself from this one. If my advise was bad I apologize.

Yes, intuition told many advisors and professors that my journey would end up a train wreck as well. I was urged multiple times not to try, as it would end badly. Bottom line is if you are ACTUALLY prepared to do what you know needs to be done, and not just lying to yourself, then it can be done, period.

 

[ridethecliche]

I said i wasn't THAT familiar. I can still read AACOM guidelines as can anyone. They don't guarantee grade replacement on classes as per their website and many times courses are not replaced, especially with uni jumping and course numbers not matching as in the case of OP. Their failures came after two years of basic classes and these classes are upper level Stat classes I'm guessing and not easy gen ed classes.

So you would advise OP to take 2 years to finish his/her degree, then take another 1.5-2.5 years to do grade replacement on classes they've taken with the possibility that some of those Fs will not be replaced?

Maybe my advice is bad to you and others, but I do have valid points that may mean the OP may waste years of their life. Also, there are tons and tons of IFs in OP's situation. All of which need to come true for them to even have the slightest chance.

Oh and 8 years of full time undergrad is bound to raise a few flags as well...

Advising someone to follow their dreams is admirable, but if all those IFs don't come true, OP can be financially and educationally screwed for the rest of their life..

Edit: I'm not an adcom, i just have my own intuition and it says this is likely to be a train wreck.. Ill pull myself from this one. If my advise was bad I apologize.

The purpose of advice in general is not to create additional hypothetical scenarios and back them up with your intuition and thoughts, but to do so with some rationale.

If I was in the OP's position, it is highly likely that I would not apply. The purpose of giving advice to someone is to give them a realistic expectation of what they're in for, how they will be viewed, and then let them decide for themselves.

My issue was with the fact that you spoke as if you were some sort of authority and incredulity of someone with such a history while claiming your own ignorance. It's okay to not know the answer, but then just read and move on.

I think it would honestly do you some good to read the non-trad low gpa success story thread to see how diverse someone's experiences can be. Some of those posters are going to be your future classmates, residents, fellows, attendings, etc.

 

[z_maverica]

My parents taught me everybody makes mistakes and that its what you do in light of your mistakes that defines your character. I did dumb stuff too during my first quarter of college but Im lucky to have have a mom who told me that I can choose whatever I want in life even if its failure. That really made me think and I realized my first quarter of college was all about me feeling really smart when what I was doing was really dumb. I have some bad grades I have to explain my way through but its only one term and I worked to turn everything around and got an internship in Scripps LaJolla that lasted for almost two years. I had a good mentor too who told me that everything Im doing now is preparation for what I will make of myself in the future and that I can be as successful as I choose to be cuz its all about dedication and work. People who may not be as "shiny" as others can come to a precipice where they're forced to choose one way or the other and it could be that maybe you've hit bottom and are ready for permanent change in lifestyle. My Dads a doctor and works over 60 hours per week cuz thats what he chose to do. He told me for years that I may as well get used to the lifestyle early cuz its never going to change.

 

[Feelgood Inc]

Several failing grades, is there any hope?

Yeah.

You'll need a lot of perseverance but yeah.

If you want to do something and you know for a fact that you want to do it more than anything then in this scenario it's possible, just a really long road and you'll probably have a series of doubts along the way. But if you and medicine are really a match then yeah it's possible.

People come from all walks of life anyway.