SF Chron: Bay Area Hospitals Engaged in Anticompetitve practices

[drusso]

I hope that the employed, health system MD's will hold their governing Boards accountable for this mess...

Suit against Sutter spawns fight with Bay Area hospitals over trade secrets

“These are serious allegations of anticompetitive conduct,” Stremikis said. “We all know health care costs too much, and if market actors are acting in an anticompetitive way, that needs to stop.”

Grassley calls for Federal Trade Commission to examine hospital, insurer contracting | FierceHealthcare

"That piece highlighted restrictive contracts between insurers and dominant health systems that effectively mask prices from consumers, limit audits of claims, add extra fees and block efforts to exclude healthcare providers based on quality or cost."

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[hyperalgesia]

I hope that the employed, health system MD's will hold their governing Boards accountable for this mess...

Suit against Sutter spawns fight with Bay Area hospitals over trade secrets

“These are serious allegations of anticompetitive conduct,” Stremikis said. “We all know health care costs too much, and if market actors are acting in an anticompetitive way, that needs to stop.”

Grassley calls for Federal Trade Commission to examine hospital, insurer contracting | FierceHealthcare

"That piece highlighted restrictive contracts between insurers and dominant health systems that effectively mask prices from consumers, limit audits of claims, add extra fees and block efforts to exclude healthcare providers based on quality or cost."

The docs are just cogs in this machine. You don't expect the fries maker at McDonald's to be accountable for anticompetitive practices.

As a taxpayer, I hold our govt responsible.

 

[drusso]

The docs are just cogs in this machine. You don't expect the fries maker at McDonald's to be accountable for anticompetitive practices.

As a taxpayer, I hold our govt responsible.

I oppose government interference in business matters, but in this case I'd have to agree. Time to put an end to the Health System SOS Arbitrage Cartel. The taxpayer is being abused.

 

[lonelobo]

The docs are just cogs in this machine. You don't expect the fries maker at McDonald's to be accountable for anticompetitive practices.

As a taxpayer, I hold our govt responsible.

Trumps fault

 

[Gauss]

As a taxpayer, I hold our govt responsible.

I don't follow - Sutter is notorious for overcharging and anti competitive practices. Are you saying the gov't is responsible for their corruption and greedy practices?

 

[Ducttape]

isn't that free market economy at its, er, best?

 

[hyperalgesia]

I don't follow - Sutter is notorious for overcharging and anti competitive practices. Are you saying the gov't is responsible for their corruption and greedy practices?

Sutter is responsible absolutely but govt responsible for holding them accountable.

 

[hyperalgesia]

isn't that free market economy at its, er, best?

Absolutely not! Free market is not free-for-all.

 

[Ducttape]

what or who is controlling or restricting their actions? aren't they doing what they are supposed to be doing, making as much money as possible for their shareholders? they are playing the game better than anyone else, right?

am I mistaken that most conservative free market supporters do not want government interference in business?

 

[DokterMom]

One of the most fundamental pillars of contract law is that in order for a contract to be valid, there has to be a meeting of the minds as to the basic terms.

How then can any patient be held financially responsible for medical expenses incurred when they had no way of knowing what those expenses would be?

 

[drusso]

what or who is controlling or restricting their actions? aren't they doing what they are supposed to be doing, making as much money as possible for their shareholders? they are playing the game better than anyone else, right?

am I mistaken that most conservative free market supporters do not want government interference in business?

Proudly Not-for-Profit | Sutter Health

Nominally-non-profit "charities" are ripping off the tax-payers. You can be a charity or a regulated utility, but not both.

 

[Gauss]

Proudly Not-for-Profit | Sutter Health

Nominally-non-profit "charities" are ripping off the tax-payers. You can be a charity or a regulated utility, but not both.

Blah - everyone in CA knows Sutter's nonprofit status is purely for tax sheltering. Their foundation is ridiculously wealthy, they are no charity and it's fairly obvious to eveyrone. Sutter is not faith based (i.e. dignity, providence) so they can't hide behind that shield. CA attorney general Becera brought the lawsuit against them so the gov't is holding them accountable - which is why I'm not understanding your post hyperalgesia

 

[hyperalgesia]

Blah - everyone in CA knows Sutter's nonprofit status is purely for tax sheltering. Their foundation is ridiculously wealthy, they are no charity and it's fairly obvious to eveyrone. Sutter is not faith based (i.e. dignity, providence) so they can't hide behind that shield. CA attorney general Becera brought the lawsuit against them so the gov't is holding them accountable - which is why I'm not understanding your post hyperalgesia

I support the govt action. If they do it right, I hold them accountable in the good way.

 

[hyperalgesia]

what or who is controlling or restricting their actions? aren't they doing what they are supposed to be doing, making as much money as possible for their shareholders? they are playing the game better than anyone else, right?

am I mistaken that most conservative free market supporters do not want government interference in business?

Answering your questions from my perspective:
-California is apparently holding them to account. But there are national antitrust laws too.
-NO, because the hospital system is breaking the law, apparently.
-The hospital is NOT playing the game, it is cheating at the game (allegedly).
-Free market supporters don't want lawlessness. That's antifa - the group of fringe liberals who don't tolerate free speech and like to wear masks and throw bricks into storefronts.

This rigged system, with mandatory crooked health insurance, SOS differentials that support corrupt and inefficient hospital systems is the furthest thing from a libertarian, free market model.

 

[Ducttape]

so you are advocating for government monitoring and control...

so the argument that there has to be a free market is not a true free market then?

In economics, a free market is an idealized system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and by consumers. In a free market the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, by a price-setting monopoly, or by other authority. Proponents of the concept of free market contrast it with a regulated market, in which a government intervenes in supply and demand through various methods — such as tariffs — used to restrict trade and to protect the local economy. In an idealized free-market economy, prices for goods and services are set freely by the forces of supply and demand and are allowed to reach their point of equilibrium without intervention by government policy.

yes im being obnoxious and dogmatic, but I will remember this the next time I hear the hallelujahs of a free market system and how our health care woes will be cured if we were to institute one

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

so you are advocating for government monitoring and control...

so the argument that there has to be a free market is not a true free market then?

yes im being obnoxious and dogmatic, but I will remember this the next time I hear the hallelujahs of a free market system and how our health care woes will be cured if we were to institute one

Except the government has already intervened to prevent a free market in the first place.

 

[Ducttape]

not enough, apparently, in this case, eh?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

not enough, apparently, in this case, eh?

The government created a problem so its their responsibility to fix it. Not sure how you're not getting this.

 

[Ducttape]

The government created a problem so its their responsibility to fix it. Not sure how you're not getting this.

and companies will find loopholes and ways to gain the system that are, essentially, legitimate, and the fewer the rules are, the more they will do so.

the answer is not to open up the rules so that companies can be even more unscrupulous

 

[SSdoc33]

Proudly Not-for-Profit | Sutter Health

Nominally-non-profit "charities" are ripping off the tax-payers. You can be a charity or a regulated utility, but not both.

if you don't like tax cheats, you are on the wrong side of the aisle, my friend.....

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

and companies will find loopholes and ways to gain the system that are, essentially, legitimate, and the fewer the rules are, the more they will do so.

the answer is not to open up the rules so that companies can be even more unscrupulous

I know very few people who want to do away with all regulations.

Y'all do a fair number of procedures, you know the cost difference for patients between using hospital OR time for your procedures compared to ASC OR time.

But between CON laws and the ACA, we're essentially forbidden from opening new ASCs.

 

[drusso]

if you don't like tax cheats, you are on the wrong side of the aisle, my friend.....

I've never missed paying a quarterly estimated tax payment.

 

[hyperalgesia]

and companies will find loopholes and ways to gain the system that are, essentially, legitimate, and the fewer the rules are, the more they will do so.

the answer is not to open up the rules so that companies can be even more unscrupulous

Liberal giveaways to crooked insurance corporations (via mandated purchases), "non-profit hospitals" and their executives, (via SOS differentials) ARE the loopholes. You are defending these loopholes.

 

[SSdoc33]

I've never missed paying a quarterly estimated tax payment.

im not accusing YOU of cheating on your taxes. some real estate barons/politicians/pathological narcissists do, however

 

[Ducttape]

Liberal giveaways to crooked insurance corporations (via mandated purchases), "non-profit hospitals" and their executives, (via SOS differentials) ARE the loopholes. You are defending these loopholes.

Far be it. I’m arguing generically that the pervasive argument of applying free market economy to the current situation will not “make it all right”. Closing the loopholes - ie more government intrusion - is the right thing to do.

The counter argument is that we should have a complete free market economy. From a nominally pragmatic stance, that can never happen, regardless of ones hopes.

 

[hyperalgesia]

Far be it. I’m arguing generically that the pervasive argument of applying free market economy to the current situation will not “make it all right”. Closing the loopholes - ie more government intrusion - is the right thing to do.

The counter argument is that we should have a complete free market economy. From a nominally pragmatic stance, that can never happen, regardless of ones hopes.

Let's get specific. What loopholes are you talking about that relate to this case? I gave specific examples of government intrusions that directly contributed to the conduct and harm to patients and taxpayers in this case.

 

[Ducttape]

you mentioned loopholes first. id be happy to probably agree with you, but i dont know which ones you are specify (but i dont want to assume; im not sure you are specifically talking about confidential contracts between hospitals and insurers)

my argument is global, not specific.