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orangeman25

orangeman25

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I'm making this thread because I need help convincing my family that going to a DO school (CCOM/KCUMB..haven't decided yet) may be a wiser choice than going to St. George. They are one of those families that are very adamant about having the MD degree. I'm also interested in the primary care fields (IM, peds, family medicine, EM), so my family tells me that those fields are equally attainable as a DO as they are as an MD grad from the Caribbean. To make matters more interesting, my uncle got his medical education from Ross University and is an example of the "outcome of these institutions."

Do I listen to my family and uncle, and go to SGU? Or do I go with my gut and choose CCOM/KCUMB?
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Go with your gut. Go to DO school. Don't get your MD outside the US. Even if your uncle was successful coming out of the Caribbean, you'll have more opportunities than he had, guaranteed - especially in primary care fields.
 
If you want to become a practicing physician, then pick DO. If you want to run the risk of being a statistic, one of the 20-40% who don't even get a chance to take their boards at a Caribbean "MD" school, then go there. But it should be a no brainer. Really. When your uncle went, things were different. The numbers don't lie
 
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Is your family the one attending medical school? Is your family the one that is going to risk not having a job, a useless degree, and mountains of debt?
 
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midweststudent1 said:
If you want to become a practicing physician, then pick DO. If you want to run the risk of being a statistic, one of the 20-40% who don't even get a chance to take their boards at a Caribbean "MD" school, then go there. But it should be a no brainer. Really. When your uncle went, things were different. The numbers don't lie
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I think this is the key point... back in the day it was more feasible, but with more US grads to compete against nowadays, the first people that are going to be slowly shoved out of the match are the Caribbean students.

This is all just a conversation about risk... Personally I would not risk that much money with any sort of possibility that I could not practice medicine in the US.
 
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There a billions of threads on this forum with a wealth of information (with data from the NRMP) that shows that DO is a better choice than Carib MD programs.
 
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Greater than 99% of DOs obtain residency positions. Many schools have 100% placement. SGU has roughly 70% of their students match to the lowest of the low programs in the country, and that excludes the 30-40% that fail out prior to completing medical school or aren't allowed to take the boards. Your uncle went to medical school back in the day when there were far more match positions to go around per us grad. Due to the massive expansion of DO and MD enrollment, there are far more qualified US graduates per residency position than there used to be, so matching from even one of the big 4 carib schools is a long shot. If you want to have 400k in debt for a useless degree, go to SGU. If you want to be a doctor, go DO.
 
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Just DO it. DOs can do everything MDs can: the letters after your name are irrelevant to 95% of your patients and the other 5% are jerks anyway.
 
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I was looking at SGUs match list and honestly it is equally as impressive (or actually marginally more impressive) than CCOM/KCUMB or any other DO school for that matter. Even when taking into account SGU class size. I hate to admit this. Why do people say go DO over caribbean MD? I'm genuinely curious. Yeah there's a huge attrition rate but if you can get an acceptance at a top DO school, I doubt you will have to drop out of med school; I mean, that is the last of my worries.

Advice?
 
orangeman25 said:
I was looking at SGUs match list and honestly it is equally as impressive (or actually marginally more impressive) than CCOM/KCUMB or any other DO school for that matter. Even when taking into account SGU class size. I hate to admit this. Why do people say go DO over caribbean MD? I'm genuinely curious. Yeah there's a huge attrition rate but if you can get an acceptance at a top DO school, I doubt you will have to drop out of med school; I mean, that is the last of my worries.

Advice?
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You have made two threads and gotten tons of advice already.

If you are dead set on jeopardizing the rest of your life then just do it already. If we haven't changed your mind by now I don't see what else we can do.

What are you waiting for? Someone to tell you do go Caribbean over DO? Good luck.
 
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orangeman25 said:
I was looking at SGUs match list and honestly it is equally as impressive (or actually marginally more impressive) than CCOM/KCUMB or any other DO school for that matter. Even when taking into account SGU class size. I hate to admit this. Why do people say go DO over caribbean MD? I'm genuinely curious. Yeah there's a huge attrition rate but if you can get an acceptance at a top DO school, I doubt you will have to drop out of med school; I mean, that is the last of my worries.

Advice?
Click to expand...

The match list you're looking at is utterly modified for the purpose pf attraction. They don't take into account attrition rate, remediation, and also don't say if those spots are just transitional intern years with no guarantee of getting in the actual program.

There are lawsuits against carribean medical schools for their swift and sudden action to pull the plug on a student and leave them in an enormous amount of debt.

The ones matching from the carribean are the ones who are actual foreigners. Not us citizens who went there. The risk is too high to go to the carribean. And the majority (well...everyone) is telling you no. But if you cringe at the fact that you are a DO then go ahead, we just don't want you to be another "example" of someone who is left with an MD degree and no job.
 
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Go to SGU then. Why are yall wasting time on this dude, he's obviously very concerned about getting dat MD! Go get it, man! Go get that nice MD, tan, and see you in 4+ years in the thread "Help! IMG, no match!"
 
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No..I'm actually just trying to make a rational argument. I'm comparing match lists and it's pretty evident that SGUs list is equal or marginally better than any of the DO schools. I'm making an observation here. Everyone here is so anti caribbean but the evidence in front of me (match list) shows that caribbean may be a stronger option. Someone tell me how I'm wrong? I'm genuinely interested
 
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orangeman25 said:
No..I'm actually just trying to make a rational argument. I'm comparing match lists and it's pretty evident that SGUs list is equal or marginally better than any of the DO schools. I'm making an observation here. Everyone here is so anti caribbean but the evidence in front of me (match list) shows that caribbean may be a stronger option. Someone tell me how I'm wrong? I'm genuinely interested
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That is probably because a good number of students that SGU takes never graduate. Even DO schools tend to have higher attrition than MD schools, but the numbers are fairly low.
 
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orangeman25 said:
No..I'm actually just trying to make a rational argument. I'm comparing match lists and it's pretty evident that SGUs list is equal or marginally better than any of the DO schools. I'm making an observation here. Everyone here is so anti caribbean but the evidence in front of me (match list) shows that caribbean may be a stronger option. Someone tell me how I'm wrong? I'm genuinely interested
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And you know how to evaluate the quality of the programs students are matching in how?
 
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I guess I'm mostly having trouble understanding why you applied DO seeing as you're so against going to a DO school.
 
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orangeman25 said:
I'm making this thread because I need help convincing my family that going to a DO school (CCOM/KCUMB..haven't decided yet) may be a wiser choice than going to St. George. They are one of those families that are very adamant about having the MD degree. I'm also interested in the primary care fields (IM, peds, family medicine, EM), so my family tells me that those fields are equally attainable as a DO as they are as an MD grad from the Caribbean. To make matters more interesting, my uncle got his medical education from Ross University and is an example of the "outcome of these institutions."

Do I listen to my family and uncle, and go to SGU? Or do I go with my gut and choose CCOM/KCUMB?
Click to expand...

Just a few notes.

EM is not a primary care field and getting very competitive and will be difficult to match into as an IMG. IM has also been getting surprisingly competitive, especially university programs or programs with good connections to fellowships. If your goal is just being an internist, you should be ok assuming you make it through.

The problem with carrib is even by working hard and getting good step scores and a good resume, you may still only have the option of training in a malignant program or a field you have absolutely no desire to practice (what if you hate FM?). With DO, you have AOA residencies that are open to you. I see a lot of disgruntled 4th years saying how they deserve X because they got 240+ Step 1, great letters, etc. Just be aware that "hard work" may not be enough to overcome being an IMG and not matching is a very real possibility.

Good luck and I hope you succeed wherever you go.
 
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Pierre Escargot said:
I guess I'm mostly having trouble understanding why you applied DO seeing as you're so against going to a DO school.
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I'm not SO against going to a DO school. I was just having trouble understanding why DO is a better option than SGU. You see plenty of EM, general surgery, anesthesiology on SGU match list. Trust me, Caribbean school is not ideal. But I just don't want to believe blindly by SDN that you should go to DO school over Carib without a conversation.
 
Give OP a break y'all. He's asking good questions and trying to figure stuff out. Stop acting like everything you know is obvious to everyone.
 
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Thanks for responding everyone. This is my take on the matter. I'm 99% going to to a DO school. But it's only because I don't want to go out of the country and live in poor conditions. The fact of the matter is that match list shows that SGU produces as good of a residency placement or even better than DO schools. Plenty of EM, anesthesiology, and general surgery. And yeah attrition rate is horrible but you have to understand that there are some extremely dumb ppl going to the Caribbean who have no business there. I have good stats (3.6/31) that perhaps could have landed me a UD MD acceptance, but didn't. That's why I know that I can survive medical school. And if I am one of those survivors and manage to do well, will I be better off at SGU?

Those were the thoughts going through my head and I think they were very well founded. DO is what I'm going to do only because I want to stay close to family. But otherwise I think if you are smart and talented, you will land in the same place if you went Carib or DO. With the Caribbean, you'd be an MD (if that matters to you) and perhaps could market yourself better if you choose to go private practice.
 
orangeman25 said:
I'm not SO against going to a DO school. I was just having trouble understanding why DO is a better option than SGU. You see plenty of EM, general surgery, anesthesiology on SGU match list. Trust me, Caribbean school is not ideal. But I just don't want to believe blindly by SDN that you should go to DO school over Carib without a conversation.
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There's nothing wrong with that. All I can really do is reiterate what's already been said: going to an osteopathic school is as close to a guarantee that you will become a physician as can be given to you at the moment. The Caribbean is a gamble, and the risks seem to greatly overshadow the possible rewards.

The two initials after your last name simply shouldn't matter, in my opinion. DOs make excellent physicians, surgeons, etc. and an acceptance to any US medical school should be a source of pride for you.
 
orangeman25 said:
I'm not SO against going to a DO school. I was just having trouble understanding why DO is a better option than SGU. You see plenty of EM, general surgery, anesthesiology on SGU match list. Trust me, Caribbean school is not ideal. But I just don't want to believe blindly by SDN that you should go to DO school over Carib without a conversation.
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You also don't see how many students failed without being able to remediate, weren't allowed to sit for Step I, or failed Step I and were subsequently dismissed. SGU's match list also doesn't include graduation year, just the year those students matched so it's very likely that a number of the matches on there are students who had to go through multiple cycles. There's also a fair number of students who only matched prelim (surgery in particular) or transitional spots, which only guarantees them 1 year of GME. Just because a school is matching people into specialties you deem competitive (e.g., EM, general surg, gas) doesn't mean its impressive - you don't know the quality of those programs and whether or not they're malignant.

Edit - also with both US MD and DO schools expanding and ~0% growth in the number of residency spots FMGs and IMGs are going to be feeling even more of a squeeze and its going to become progressively harder for them to match.
 
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orangeman25 said:
Thanks for responding everyone. This is my take on the matter. I'm 99% going to to a DO school. But it's only because I don't want to go out of the country and live in poor conditions. The fact of the matter is that match list shows that SGU produces as good of a residency placement or even better than DO schools. Plenty of EM, anesthesiology, and general surgery. And yeah attrition rate is horrible but you have to understand that there are some extremely dumb ppl going to the Caribbean who have no business there. I have good stats (3.6/31) that perhaps could have landed me a UD MD acceptance, but didn't. That's why I know that I can survive medical school. And if I am one of those survivors and manage to do well, will I be better off at SGU?
Click to expand...

I'm not going to speak to match lists aside from that the info on SGU's site seems fishy.

The statement that "extremely dumb people" go to the Caribbean isn't really true. I'd wager a large chunk of them are competitive for many DO schools and even some MD schools if they were to apply strategically. They may have made some "dumb" choices but they may certainly be very capable students. Unfortunately, they decided to go to a diploma mill for med school.

The people that hear the warnings about the Caribbean and know the risks, yet still attend, for whatever reason, hold the mentality that they'll be the one who doesn't become a statistic. They'll be the one to rock the boards and rotations (the ones the school buys) and get good LORs from some hot shot NYC neurosurgeon and match top tier NS and become a hero for all Carib students. Unfortunately, this is just a silly fantasy, because the truth seems to be that no matter how capable and successful you might be within the bubble of your Carib school, the likelihood of you practicing as a physician in the US, or at all, is severely threatened if you decide to go there.
 
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orangeman25 said:
Thanks for responding everyone. This is my take on the matter. I'm 99% going to to a DO school. But it's only because I don't want to go out of the country and live in poor conditions. The fact of the matter is that match list shows that SGU produces as good of a residency placement or even better than DO schools. Plenty of EM, anesthesiology, and general surgery. And yeah attrition rate is horrible but you have to understand that there are some extremely dumb ppl going to the Caribbean who have no business there. I have good stats (3.6/31) that perhaps could have landed me a UD MD acceptance, but didn't. That's why I know that I can survive medical school. And if I am one of those survivors and manage to do well, will I be better off at SGU?

Those were the thoughts going through my head and I think they were very well founded. DO is what I'm going to do only because I want to stay close to family. But otherwise I think if you are smart and talented, you will land in the same place if you went Carib or DO. With the Caribbean, you'd be an MD (if that matters to you) and perhaps could market yourself better if you choose to go private practice.
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According to the NRMP report, GS is difficult to match into as an IMG since there is a 1:1 ratio of USMD applicants - spots. EM becoming competitive is a recent occurrence so that number will decline in subsequent years and anesthesiology is becoming less competitive due to job fears and encroachment from nurse anesthetist.

Also the talented thing isn't true. Even as a low tier MD student, there are programs that are restricted from you just because of bias for top tier. It is what it is, but carrib is going to be worse due to the rapid increase in medical schools. Head over to the IM, EM and other specialty boards and see the kind of people getting interviews and others that are having difficulties applying as fourth years. Most are saying how unbelievably competitive it's gotten in the match and "shoe-ins" aren't getting interviews at top programs.

For the carrib, you can't base your decision off of past data. According to the AAMC, Class of 2018 has the highest enrollment ever and the number of medical school seats are still increasing against a stagnant number of residency slots.
 
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orangeman25 said:
Thanks for responding everyone. This is my take on the matter. I'm 99% going to to a DO school. But it's only because I don't want to go out of the country and live in poor conditions. The fact of the matter is that match list shows that SGU produces as good of a residency placement or even better than DO schools. Plenty of EM, anesthesiology, and general surgery. And yeah attrition rate is horrible but you have to understand that there are some extremely dumb ppl going to the Caribbean who have no business there. I have good stats (3.6/31) that perhaps could have landed me a UD MD acceptance, but didn't. That's why I know that I can survive medical school. And if I am one of those survivors and manage to do well, will I be better off at SGU?

Those were the thoughts going through my head and I think they were very well founded. DO is what I'm going to do only because I want to stay close to family. But otherwise I think if you are smart and talented, you will land in the same place if you went Carib or DO. With the Caribbean, you'd be an MD (if that matters to you) and perhaps could market yourself better if you choose to go private practice.
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Published data says otherwise:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf
 
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orangeman25 said:
I'm not SO against going to a DO school. I was just having trouble understanding why DO is a better option than SGU. You see plenty of EM, general surgery, anesthesiology on SGU match list. Trust me, Caribbean school is not ideal. But I just don't want to believe blindly by SDN that you should go to DO school over Carib without a conversation.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing though...

I'll use EM as an example bc its the most competitive on your list.

If you look at the SGU list, most of the EM matches are at bottom of the barrel programs with poor teaching and malignant reputations (i.e. not where you want to train). These are the places that most US grads won't even rank unless they have a severe geographic limitation. Examples: Brooklyn, Drexel, Hackensack, Lincoln, Maimonides, St. Joseph's, Methodist, St. John, and Mississippi. There are only a handful of good matches on that list.

Not to mention, those people who did match in EM likely had sky high board scores and great grades. Just because you can get into a good DO school does not mean you can count on getting a 250+ step 1.

Now, if you look at DO lists, there are a wide range of matches from top to bottom programs. LECOM sent people to Hennepin and UTSW last year (top programs). CCOM sent 2 people to UC Davis (also a great program). KCUMB sent people to multiple solid programs (UT-Houston, Arizona, Kansas).

In addition, more than likely most of those students didn't have crazy high boards and grades. High yes, but not as high as SGU.

Bottom line, with DO, some top programs will still be open to you and you don't have to get 90th percentile scores to match.
 
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First you are asking pre-meds who honestly don't know all the info.

You need to go where you want to, not your family.

The SGU list is accurate. Up until 2013 match they used to have the students name with the match, but some students complained. It does list which are prelim spots, or used to (I did not look at last year's list).

You can get a fellowship if you go to SGU. In fact the SGU list shows up to PGY 7. These are not all the fellowships, just the ones that grads informed SGU about. How do I know this? Because some of my friend's fellowships were not listed.

Not all who go to SGU plan on practicing in the US. There are Carib citizens who stay in the Caribbean. There are those who return to Africa. And those who return to the UK (or stay since those usually are doing rotations in the UK). Those will not appear on the match list.

There is clean running water and electricity is very reliable. Plenty of food in the grocery stores too. Nice accommodations on campus and off as well.

The stats on the nrmp site include all carib schools. There are a lot and a lot that should be shut down. You really cannot group those with SGU

Graduating from SGU does not automatically put you at the bottom of the list below all US MD and DO. (You are not guaranteed to be ranked common from US MD and DO either).

Is SGU easy? No. You have to work hard and not need to be spoon fed. If you have bad study habits now, SGU is not the place. People do fail out but not as high as pre-meds think. Other Carib schools, yes. The ones who do fail really has no business in med school.

Some will say it is impossible to match neurosurgery from the Carib. SGU has some neurosurgery matches in the past.

I'm not saying you should choose SGU over DO. I am giving you facts from someone knowledgable. You have to make the decision and live with that decision.

Another thing most pre-meds do not know about SGU: it is not just a medical and vet school. It is a full university with undergrad, graduate school with master's and PhD degrees, MBA program separate from the med, and nursing school.
 
MD DO DOM MDO OD DM MOD
Riddle me that..
 
orangeman25 said:
I was looking at SGUs match list and honestly it is equally as impressive (or actually marginally more impressive) than CCOM/KCUMB or any other DO school for that matter.
Click to expand...
Uh, no. It's not.
 
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orangeman25 said:
I was looking at SGUs match list and honestly it is equally as impressive (or actually marginally more impressive) than CCOM/KCUMB or any other DO school for that matter. Even when taking into account SGU class size. I hate to admit this. Why do people say go DO over caribbean MD? I'm genuinely curious. Yeah there's a huge attrition rate but if you can get an acceptance at a top DO school, I doubt you will have to drop out of med school; I mean, that is the last of my worries.

Advice?
Click to expand...

What makes you think SGU's match list is impressive? Anyway, the reason people say to avoid Caribbean at all costs is because as the number of US graduates increases per year, the number of residency spots will remain about the same. US grads (regardless of DO/MD) are given priority, eventually we will run into a bottleneck where foreign grads are no longer able to secure US residencies. As everyone said before me, when your uncle went to school in the Caribbean presumably over two decades ago, this was not an issue; now it is. Listen to everyone's advice and go DO.
 
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Dont do a DO unless you want to practice Manipulative Medicine ~, SGU will prepare you better for Step I, also if you have the Stats to get into a DO school then you could get into a home state ( unless you live in CA or New england) or other low tier US MD school !
 
malick1 said:
Dont do a DO unless you want to practice Manipulative Medicine ~, SGU will prepare you better for Step I, also if you have the Stats to get into a DO school then you could get into a home state ( unless you live in CA or New england) or other low tier US MD school !
Click to expand...
n725075089_288918_2774.jpg
 
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malick1 said:
Dont do a DO unless you want to practice Manipulative Medicine ~
Click to expand...

Well, since many OMS go into ACGME residencies, and since ACGME + AOA is gonna have a good bondage session, I would say that OMM would slowly be faded (unfortunately).
 
malick1 said:
Dont do a DO unless you want to practice Manipulative Medicine ~, SGU will prepare you better for Step I, also if you have the Stats to get into a DO school then you could get into a home state ( unless you live in CA or New england) or other low tier US MD school !
Click to expand...
:clap:
 
malick1 said:
SGU have higher past rate than DO schools :) but I know Caribbean schools are a big Taboo ar SDN :)
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They are actually a "big Taboo" for that whole residency thing.

Please refer to post #27 for the published facts.
 
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orangeman25 said:
No..I'm actually just trying to make a rational argument. I'm comparing match lists and it's pretty evident that SGUs list is equal or marginally better than any of the DO schools. I'm making an observation here. Everyone here is so anti caribbean but the evidence in front of me (match list) shows that caribbean may be a stronger option. Someone tell me how I'm wrong? I'm genuinely interested
Click to expand...
No, you're not making a rational argument and certainly not based on "evidence". But go ahead.
 
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drcrispmd said:
There is a neurosurgery and a few ortho on that list. No urology or opthal in 2014 but there have been in the past few years.
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One of the Orthopedic residents if you look him up actually graduated SGU in 2012. He finally matched into Ortho in 2014.
 
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