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SGU vs Ross vs DO vs Royal college dublin

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vdubpower

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hello everyone
i was wondering if i could get opinions as to what med schools you all find favorable, the advantages and disavantages and any information which may be useful as to whether to go to SGU, ross, a DO school or the royal college of surgeons in Dublin. If possible please reply with your experiences. from what i have heard, a DO school is better than getting a foreign MD. TRue or false? i kknow that i do not want to be a primary care physician and DO's are not limited to those tho. SGU vs ross:, i have heard they are the "best". what are the differences. do i have to take other test cuz of being a FMS. has anyone gone to or know anything about RCSD. i know they have a 5 yr course. but again i wold be a FMS. if anyone has any opinions let me know
thanks alot
 

Mango

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I think you'll find that most people will tell you the same thing, which is a DO degree earned in the US, will always be better than traveling to a foreign country to get an MD. You have to consider so many things. Most important (I think) is the financial logistics. Plus, the living situation, the atrition rates, the board passing rates, I could go on and on. But I think if you examine each of those things, you'll find that the DO schools offer you the better option.

Incidentaly, I am an MD student, and I would like to add that the differences in ave. GPA/MCAT's between MD and DO schools is a gap that's rapidly closing. DO's have been steadily gaining acceptance, and have proliferated through all the specialties. My point is, you may find that the idea of using DO schools as a "fall-Back," or as a "last resort," is quickly becoming a thing of the past!

Good luck to you, Mango
 
K

kimberlicox

Hi...

I agree with the previous poster in that some bias does still exist against DOs but that it is diminishing and probably does not reach that of IMGs.

Regardless of your choice of SGU, Ross or RCSI, you will be a FMS. As an IMG you are required to take the following exams to get your ECFMG certificate and participate in the NRMP:

USMLE Step 1 and 2
TOEFL (English exam - yes, required even for native English speakers and those trained in English speaking countries)
CSA (a clinical skills OSCE exam)

You will notice only the last two are in addition to what the US students take. I do know that the RCSI is reputed to be an excellent school and although it is 5 years in length that extra year is spent in clinical training, which IMHO would be all for the better. You must keep in mind however, that the RCSI, like many other foreign schools, is not designed for Americans students. You will be in the minority there and should not expect to hear "you will need to know this for Step 1" in your lectures. However, they have the resources for you to do well, but it will be dependent on your effort (regardless of where you go).

Hope this helps.
 

stephew

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I think I'd qualify the opinions above; being a DO has some advantages compared with coming from certain foreign schools; also in certain fields. Not across the board.

You will be an IMG coming from Ross or SGU (My alma mater) but you will be a DO coming from DO school. The previous poster is abosultely correct that the GPA and scores in DO school are higher and high , as they are with IMGs now (some schools more than others; there aree more competitive foreign schools and ones less so). But while as a DO you will learn everything you need to be a doc just like an MD and can practice exactly the same, the vast majority get a DO degree because they didnt get into an allopathic school. Residency committees know this. Having said that, no one in their right mind would go abroad (except canada) for allopathic school if they could get into a US school; but nowadays some do choose DO school over allopathic school. There is still some bias against these folks.

BOttom line: DO will help you a wee bit more for ortho. But most go into primary fields. DO offers more opportuntiy that some IMG schools, not all. And some residency directors are biased for DOs, some for particular IMG grads. Go whichever place suits you.
All the best,
Steph
 

Skip Intro

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Great advice, Steph. Right on the money. And, still timeless too.

-Skip
 

drusso

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Well, I'm a D.O. and here is my perspective...

When I applied to medical school I was very interested in the osteopathic route because of some role models and prior experiences I had with D.O.'s. I did my undergrad at UC Berkeley and did a lot of research-related stuff at UCSF. I was told by my premed advisor, as well as professors at UCSF, to not "waste my application" on osteopathic schools, that I was too qualified for D.O. schools, and that D.O.'s did not enjoy the same respect in the medical community as did M.D.'s. I elected to go to a D.O. school anyway since I wasn't accepted to a UC medical school and was interested in dual degree programs and really liked TCOM's DO/MPH program. I was accepted at other non-California MD schools.

Throughout my education and into my internship I've looked for the much discussed "D.O. stigma." I've found very little so far. I've heard isolated comments (usually second-hand remarks) attributed to certain individuals or certain residency programs that allegedly discriminate against D.O.'s, but whenever I try to verify the remarks I can't turn up anything. I'm not saying that there aren't individuals out there who think that D.O.'s are second-class M.D.'s or that there aren't residency programs that discriminate against D.O.'s, I'm just saying that in my five years of "living in the belly of the beast as a D.O." I haven't found it. I'm still waiting for someone to walk up to me, look me in the eye, and say, "Dr. Russo, you suck because you are a D.O." Listening to premeds agonize over this topic makes me think that I should expect nothing less. In general, I think that the whole "D.O. stigma" it gets exaggerated by status-conscious premeds.

I'm currently in a ACGME transitional year that is considered "moderately competitive" by most standards. Most of my fellow interns are heading into radiology, derm, ophtho, rad onc, etc. The average USMLE score hovers between 230-240. There have been D.O.'s in the program every single year for the last 12 years. The program director (an MD) trained with D.O.'s in the military and knows about us and thinks we're good stuff. There have been only infrequent foreign graduates or Caribbean graduates. Is this the personal bias of the program director? Likely. All I know is that we've started pulling applications off of ERAS for interviews this year and there are already two D.O.'s on the schedule and no FMGs.

There are a couple of Caribbean grads (St Georges) in the FP program (as well as several D.O.'s) and they are just as good as any US-trained FP resident. But, when I listen to them tell stories about getting into (and surviving) medical school, setting up rotations, having to pay through the nose for tuition, etc I just don't see the advantage of the foreign route over the D.O. route. Moreover, I got my first choice for residency (many FMGs do not get their first choice) and I think a lot of it had to do with unique experiences that I only could have gotten at an osteopathic school.

Much of the educational, professional, and personal development required to become a good doctor is so person-dependent that I doubt that any kind of school (be it allopathic, osteopathic, or foreign) is going to be able to **MAKE** you a good doctor. You should look at the bigger picture of what you want out of a medical education and then weigh these considerations against the practical costs (tuition, lifestyle, geography, etc) of obtaining such an education.

On the whole, I find it hard to recommend the foreign route to US premeds for the following reason: I think that it is just frought with too many obstacles and potential pitfalls. But, it is a potential route for some---especially those who cannot get into any US medical school and still desire to become a physician. I think that it is foolish for premeds to avoid osteopathic schools because they fear some nebulous "stigma" of being a D.O. in medicine. It just hasn't manifested itself to me nor any of my close classmates yet. As a D.O., I've yet to have a patient refuse my care, a nurse refuse my order, an attending give me less than an above average or excellent evaluation. I get invited to present my research at conferences, attend pharmacy sponsored lunches/dinners/golf outings. I've published articles on uniquely osteopathic topics, I've treated both outpatients, inpatients, and occassionally nurses and fellow physicians with osteopathic manipulative techniques. Exactly what "stigma" should I be watching out for? I just don't believe that people are snickering behind my back about me being a D.O. and I find it hard to believe that my medical degree will in any way be a liability for me. And, most importantly, I don't think that my experiences are unique. Once you land a good residency, a foreign degree probably isn't a liability either. There are several legitimate paths to becoming a physician---my advice is to choose the least painless one.
 

DesOMalley

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I am new to this board. I have been lurking for a few weeks and haven't posted until now. But I have to intercede in this thread so that false information does not run rampant throughout it.

The Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI) should not be mentioned in the same breath as DO schools or the for-profit Caribbean schools. It is has a 250 year history and an international reputation as an outstanding medical school. Furthermore, it is located in one of the most pleasant, vibrant European capital cities which boasts a quality of life that, in my personal experience, is unsurpassed.

RCSI is widely regarded as the Johns Hopkins of Europe. It is a registered charity and, therefore, unlike many of the offshore schools, it is not in the business of "selling" medical education. About 75% of its student body is made up of international students and I understand that, these days, 50 students from the USA and Canada are admitted each year. It's graduates are practicing in practically every corner of the world. Many US medical schools would envy its USMLE results. 100% of its graduates who seek residencies in the US obtain them EASILY. Moreover, many of them do not even go through "The Match" because they are actively recruited by residency program directors. You will find them in The Mayo Clinic, The Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Brown, Dartmouth, Yale, UCLA, and so on.

I can assure you that anyone fortunate enough to be offered a place at RCSI is set up for life.

D
 

leorl

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I'm in dublin now, although not RCSI. I would have to say, going the Irish route is a very reputable route, and rather little stigma is attached to RCSI, TCD, UCD, UCC and the other irish schools. There's TONS of Irish docs in the US, and US IMGS who go through the atlantic bridge program have a very high USMLE pass rate as well as match rate (now that they're getting rid of re-match). Last year actually, there was a 100% Match Rate.
 

Stephen Ewen

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Indeed, I would agree that the acronym "RCSI", or the like, negates any stigma associated with the acronym "IMG".
 

RCSIstudendoc

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I want to add a word of caution about RCSI.

While what Des says is completely true, things are changing at RCSI, and all potential students should do their homework and thoroughly investigate the school.

With HUGE increases in class sizes, HUGE increases in tuition, and the ever expanding college, many students are questioning how long the reputation of RCSI will continue to be favourable.

I would highly suggest contacting CURRENT students if you want to enquire about going to RCSI. Even SHO's (who only graduated 2-3 years ago), had a different experience at RCSI than what the current students are having.

There are a lot of unhappy students at RCSI... but most feel that they are getting great training.
 

Thewonderer

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So....DO looks down on SGU/Ross. SGU/Ross looks down on RCSI. Now, RCSI looks down on DO. Heck, some DO students on this board (we learn all what MD learns and MORE, i.e. manipulation) and a couple people who go to Australia/Ireland med (we just want different experiences aboard and if we wanted, we could have gotten into US allopathic schools) even look down on American MD's.

Sure...... ;)

Ok, I am unfair in my sarcasm. But the truth is that the MAJORITY of people who go to RCSI/Trinity/SGU/Ross and (gob-forbid, I say this) many who go to DO's had unfavorable applications to US MD schools. There IS a reason for the stigma. It does not grow out of people's brains for no reason.

BUT In the end, when everybody passes the required licensure exams and is doing residency in the US, all is good.

However, before the above everybody-is-happy scenario happens, I don't care that RCSI has 250 years of history (for a while, I almost mixed it up with Columbia P&S when I read the posts here! And incidentally, is RCSI proud of the medical techniques it taught its students 200 years ago? The last time I checked, germ theory and antibiotics were not around until this past century anyway.) I also don't care about the notion that you will find their grads in the Mayo Clinic, The Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins, or UCLA.

DO students are guaranteed to do residency in the US, period!!! SGU and Ross students rotate through US hospitals (IF they make it to their clinical years without being weeded out) where they can make connections. And I am sure, living in Ireland and learning medicine there are cool experiences. But let's not cross the line and say, "I am better than thou and I don't want to be spoken in the same breath as your institution."



By the way, RCIS's tuition is 29,000 pounds a year. I did go study abroad in england during my junior year, and that's translated to a whopping amount of 45,000 US dollars alone on tuition per year. On top of that, you also have to multiple your US living expense by 1.5 to get your Ireland living expense. AND you pay that amount for 5 years (you also lose one year of 6-figure earning potential at the end of your medical career). No matter which way you cut, it does not make sense financially for you to go to RCIS over an American MD or DO school. Unless, of course, you spend 1 year or less in US undergrad and immediately attend RCIS and spend 6 years there. Or even better, you obtain a score of 34+ on your International Baccalaureate exam and can qualify for graduate entry @ RCIS where you only need 5 years to get your medical degree.
 

leorl

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Yes.... RCSI enjoys a fabulous reputation. However, it's tuition cost is the reason I chose Trinity over RCSI because it's 10 grand cheaper, a larger university school with a greater variety of people and activities, and also has an excellent world standing. RCSI is a school of med students. I'm not sure how long I'd last in that environment without getting annoyed, and there are many internationals there (like devout muslim malaysians) who are not accustomed to going out and partying / drinking. There are a good number of north americans there as well. Quite a few love their time there, but if you think you'd want a larger setting and the opportunity to meet people outside your course, you might want to consider other irish schools if you want to go the irish route.

Irish do not cater to the USMLE's remember (although there are Kaplan and TPR courses available privately), and while I'm sure you get a sound background in most of the USMLE subjects, some others you might have to study on your own.

Oh and by the way. Most students going the Irish routes are NOT going on the basis of scores. Most of us are quite competitive US applicants, but chose for whatever reason (I won't get into those here) to go abroad. Some Canadians as well are very competitive, some choose to come here because the canadian schools are extremely hard to get into (moreso than US schools), but many choose to come here as a first choice. (I'm an American but it was my first choice as well). In my mere week here, I've met quite a few amazing people who have achieved wonderful things. Scores are not part of the equation. While I won't say that everyone came here without poor scores in mind, I'd say that for most of us, our priority was on exploring the world, regardless of good scores and good grades. So to say that the MAJORITY of people go to RCSI/TRINITY on the basis of scores is completely wrong, I would advise you to do your research and actually have first-hand experience before you make such claims.

I would also say that although we are FMGs, Irish graduates do escape some of the stigma surrounding FMGs just because the reputation of medical education here is already so established. Unfortunately, that doesn't afford any leniency with regards to board scores and ecfmg requirements.

What the Irish schools are proud of is their excellent clinical teaching and the competency that their physicians have in a clinical setting. The extra year required for clinical training has a lot to do with that, and it also helps immensely on the boards. This is one of the predominant reasons North Americans choose to come to the Irish schools.
 

Stephen Ewen

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The extra year required for clinical training has a lot to do with that

Yes, in fact, there are some of us who think it is overall pretty darn nuts to cram an undergraduate medical education into four years, and see not doing so as simply superior pedagogy.
 

doctamon

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Does RCSI or Trinity have an upper age limit cutoff for applicants?:rolleyes:
 

leorl

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There is no upper age limit, although I don't know how many mature students there are at RCSI. A mature student is someone over the age of 23, and I don't think there are many in this year's class (I think the eldest is around 24 or so), but I've met others who're in their 40s, Canadian and American alike. They have various reasons of coming here to study versus in the US, and for waiting this long to study medicine. Anything from not discovering they wanted to do medicine until later in life to delaying study to work towards amazing athletic goals (Trinity's med classes boast of world and olympic champions/gold medalists). It's actually said that Trinity and maybe UCD like older applicants.
 

The Pill Counter

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Hell, Wonderer I know Canadians that look down upon those that leave to go to US MD schools. It's a thumb your nose merry-go-round!
 

Thewonderer

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Originally posted by leorl

Oh and by the way. Most students going the Irish routes are NOT going on the basis of scores. Most of us are quite competitive US applicants, but chose for whatever reason (I won't get into those here) to go abroad...Many choose to come here as a first choice... In my mere week here, I've met quite a few amazing people who have achieved wonderful things. Scores are not part of the equation. While I won't say that everyone came here without poor scores in mind, I'd say that for most of us, our priority was on exploring the world, regardless of good scores and good grades. So to say that the MAJORITY of people go to RCSI/TRINITY on the basis of scores is completely wrong, I would advise you to do your research and actually have first-hand experience before you make such claims.

It is kind of hard for me to have first-hand experience. I can only go to med school once in my lifetime, and I strongly prefer not to be an IMG because there is absolutely no point for me to risk any aspect of my future 40+ years of medical practice in North America.

I had some problem following all parts of your post because on one hand, you were saying that most students going Irish routes have competitive scores, but you also concede that some people who go there have poor scores. What is a competitive score? GPA of 3.3 and MCAT of 28 are competitive in that you do have a shot @ an US MD school, but if you apply with those scores, you will have a high chance of being rejected.

And I am sure that people who go the Irish routes are wonderful people with amazing experiences.

The only point of contention is that, "Have they tried to get into US MD school? If so, were the outcomes favorable?" So maybe you can do an informal poll from talking to your classmates. I personally know 2 who have gone to Ireland, 1 to Australia, 2 to the Carribean, 1 to the Phillipines and a couple back to Hong Kong for med after immigrating to Canada for many years. None of them were too keen on getting their med education elsewhere and none cared about having "worldly experience @ this critical junction of their lives." Most of the people roaming this part of the forum are also considering foreign med schools as an second option after US MD. But, if your informal poll does support your theory, then I apologize for falling into the trap of generalization. And I shall change my perspective on that question.

Originally posted by The Pill Counter

Hell, Wonderer I know Canadians that look down upon those that leave to go to US MD schools. It's a thumb your nose merry-go-round!

And then, there are some Americans who say, "Canada? where is that? I thought they have medical clinics set up in igloos?" :D
 

dim sum

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just want to say this, is you have the grades/scores/qualifications that enable you to choose the med school you want to go to then choose the one suits you best. But for everybody else (like me) without that stellar qualifications, you don't have that luxury and you just have to go wherever you get accepted whether it be an MD school, DO school, carribean. So stigma or no stigma, i say just gut it out for 2 years since the 3rd&4th year are the same for all med schools (different hospitals i suppose but same knowledge learned).
 

leorl

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Thewonderer, I understand your thinking. But quite simply, it's wrong.

to clarify - most people that i've met here are very competitive against US standards (higher than a 3.3 and 28), the ones of those who come here are the ones who wanted to gain something from med ed other than an academic aspect. However, there are a few who aren't and chose to come here because of lesser scores, so I can't say that a chance to study abroad is absolutely most definitely the only reason people come here. Kind of like US med school...most of them are really qualified in terms of scores, but you get your odd few who's scores or whatever don't seem to add up when compared to someone who got rejected.

To answer your query - I haven't really asked around, but I know several (one of them an SDNer who will remain unnamed) who turned down the opportunity to go to a US med school in favor of coming to Ireland. Other friends of mine who have graduated from here turned down Canadian offers in order to study in Ireland. Then there are others like me, who didn't waste the money on US applications because going abroad was our first choice. I realize it would probably seem quite stupid to you that some of us didn't consider US schools or even turned down north american schools, but as I said before - our agenda is one other than purely academic. I think I described in some other post - I knew I wouldn't be happy in a US school, surrounding myself with a group of people I generally find pretty anal (stereotyping here), and definitely wouldn't be able to enjoy life. That's what I get here - I get to actually live, have fun AND get a very good education.

Sure - a con is that we put ourselves at risk when trying to come back to the US for residency. But 1) with Irish education, the physicians churned out are very competent and quite capable of holding up to US standards. This fact has already been well established with the statistics found year after year, and the medical community knows it. 2) enriching our lives by getting experience in another culture, meeting fascinating people and making friends with such a variety of people is something that outweighs any of the cons about being an FMG. The opportunity to travel throughout Europe and to remote places that others will never get a chance to go to in their lives is a huge attraction. The possibility and encouragement of the schools for their students to do an elective helping underprivileged in third world countries is something you'd never get in the US. There's just a whole universe of eye-opening things in this world that you would never realize without leaving the US for a significant period of time. And in doing so, it makes me better able to realize the kind of doctor I want to be when I return, bringing my worldly experiences with me.

It's really just personal preference about your priorities and future goals. You want career security. That's fine. I'm willing to forego that a bit in order to enjoy my life to its fullest.
 

JMD

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Hey Wonderer,
I posted an extremely long response the other day, but due to SDN problems, it wouldn't post...I didn't feel like typing it again.

Anyways, Leorl's post pretty much covered what I wanted to say. I know of quite a few quality applicants that CHOSE Ireland. People with >30 MCATs, accepted to US schools, etc. I have also spoken w/ a Trinity grad who is a very highly respected renal doc here in Buffalo. I asked him if I was to get into a U.S. school and an Irish one, would I be dumb to go to Ireland. He felt I would receive as good an education over there (obviously he is a bit biased), and that I would have minimal problems coming back to N. America if I did well.
I am currently applying to both US and Irish Schools. I feel I am a pretty competitive US applicant, and in no way are the Irish schools "backups." I am going to check out US schools and Irish schools, take all of the factors into consideration (location, cost, curriculum, etc., etc.), and make a decision. I'll look at each school individually. If I feel one of the US schools will keep me as content as Ireland would, I'll stay, if not, I'm out.

The point of all my rambling is that there may be some people in Ireland due to their #'s, but I believe the majority of people who are there go by choice. I guess you either have the "International Bug" (Leorl is a prime example), or you don't!
JMD
 

slave4MD

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DO schools are more competitive than the Carribean ones but the title 'DO' carries a more serious disadvantage in the long run.

It's only a mere title alright, but imagine that you set up your clinic as a psychiatrist or pediatrician, per se.

If you went to a DO school, there will be the letters 'DO' after your name. We call him 'DO'

The other guy on the block may have been an FMG but he received an MD, so he will have the letters 'MD' after his name. We call this gentleman 'MD."

Assuming that both doctors are of comparable skills, who do you think the average American patient will look into first? He'll give more weight to the FMG that earned an MD, although we won't know what how he'll react upon learning of his foreign medical education.

Before I looked into applying to medical schools, I had very little info in regards to medical education. I recall of hearing a doctor with a DO but I easily dismissed him off on the level of DPMs, DCs, and ODs. Besides, most doctors want a traditional, universal degree. I can't understand why they'd rather be called an osteopath. which in itself even sounds strange.
 

drusso

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Originally posted by slave4MD
DO schools are more competitive than the Carribean ones but the title 'DO' carries a more serious disadvantage in the long run.

It's only a mere title alright, but imagine that you set up your clinic as a psychiatrist or pediatrician, per se.

If you went to a DO school, there will be the letters 'DO' after your name. We call him 'DO'

The other guy on the block may have been an FMG but he received an MD, so he will have the letters 'MD' after his name. We call this gentleman 'MD."

Assuming that both doctors are of comparable skills, who do you think the average American patient will look into first? He'll give more weight to the FMG that earned an MD, although we won't know what how he'll react upon learning of his foreign medical education.

Before I looked into applying to medical schools, I had very little info in regards to medical education. I recall of hearing a doctor with a DO but I easily dismissed him off on the level of DPMs, DCs, and ODs. Besides, most doctors want a traditional, universal degree. I can't understand why they'd rather be called an osteopath. which in itself even sounds strange.

Geez---where have you been? DO's have been around for over 130 years practicing medicine side-by-side with MD's. Osteopathic medicine is a uniquely American enterprise. Most Americans only understand what kind of physician they see based upon specialty. If they get a referral to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist happens to be a DO, do you really think that they turn around and walk away? That just hasn't been my experience. Everyday I interact with patients in a busy metropolitan hospital and no one balks at me or the other DO's. The nurses follow my orders and the pharmacy fills my prescriptions. I just don't see the disadvantage. But, when I see the hassle and red-tape that the FMGs have to put up with it makes me glad to be a US-educated and boarded physician.
 

slave4MD

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The FMGs that we're talking are US FMGs who do their basic sciences on foreign soil but complete their clinicals in the US.


I'm not saying that DOs are at a complete disadvantage. Don't get me wrong. Pending on USMILE scores and grades, DO students will have the upper edge over FMGs when trying to obtain residencies. But the FMG with higher scores might end up at a better place. ( Remember AMCAS? The admissions cared less about the quality of your undergrad than your gpa and MCAT )

But after getting residencies, both the DOs and FMGs were able to show themselves as being qualified enough credential-wise to get the residencies. Here, they are both legitimate doctors.

What's more important now? Fellowship. What do they see the most when PDs look for new fellowship doctors? Many factors are involved but the thing of primary importance is how well you did at your residency. ( Remember AMCAS? The admissions cared less about the quality of your undergrad than your gpa and MCAT )

Along the way, the advantage of DOs over FMGs start to diminish at this point. Both have official, clinical training at approved hospitals. Both of them could make a nice reputation at their newly-set private clinics.

But even the DOs cannot deny that MOST patients ( How can you expect them to know about medical education as much as you do? ) will not know what a DO is. If a patient is to pick a doctor out of a list in a phone book, the chances are higher that he will choose an MD because MDs are the majority. Second, there are always the question of "what's a DO?" and sadly that can cost the DOs some patients.
 

Thewonderer

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Originally posted by leorl
Other friends of mine who have graduated from here turned down Canadian offers in order to study in Ireland. Then there are others like me, who didn't waste the money on US applications because going abroad was our first choice.

I apologize. So I was wrong in my use of the word, "majority." It seems that half if not more who go to Trinity as least have some international experience in mind.

Incidentally, are those people who turned down Canadian offers Americans or Canadians? It would be hard to imagine Canadians turning down Canadian offers. And if they are Americans, which Canadian schools did they turn down. That's important for the other thread I started :D
 

leorl

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They were actually Canadians turning down Canadian schools! One turned down UT, another was from McMaster and either turned down McMaster or Queens, and another turned down UBC. There are also quite a few from McGill who applied here as a first choice.
 

redshifteffect

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There are two main points I would like to make in this forum:

I was accepted to a US medical school but I couldn't go to it and I chose Australia instead for the main reason that I could afford it. At the end of the day there is another option that most of you haven't really considered but may be a factor in your decision:

- The potential to stay in the country that you are doing your residency in. There is no question that if you do a degree from the country in which you intend to stay in it will be much easier to stay in that country. America has a more universal and (fair?) system in allowing foreign doctors in...other countries do not. The american degree is not as "highly" prized as most american doctors think....I have personally seen many Americans here (in a rural state) without the hope of a full license working as temporary doctors who will be kicked out when an Aussie comes along with the training to take his/her position..not very respectable for a fully licensed US doc...

- Second as a DO your chances of practicing overseas drop exponentially. A DO degree is really only good for the US....to get any semblance of equality in another country you will have to at the least go before a court and possibly even repeat your entire residency...other countries (especially Asian ones) may not even accept the degree at all (I have seen evidence that this is the case for Australia...but this has been disputed by others...)

I know that to most of you this is a trivial point since the US is the greatest country etc (note sarcasm) but who knows what you may think after you have experienced life abroad...?
 

redshifteffect

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Ps.

Leorl,

I found ur comments about Malaysians rather offensive. I personally have several malaysian housemates/ close friends and I think they are a really great group of people. I do not judge them by their religion or their personal beliefs...and the fact that you chose that as a reason not to go to RCSI makes me ashamed to have even been accepted to Trinity.
 

redshifteffect

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Originally posted by leorl
They were actually Canadians turning down Canadian schools! One turned down UT, another was from McMaster and either turned down McMaster or Queens, and another turned down UBC. There are also quite a few from McGill who applied here as a first choice.

I would have to question the logic of leaving a Canadian university to go overseas to do medicine.

I understand that charm of experiencing another culture in some people's decision but a locum would also serve this purpose (and at least you get paid for it) or perhaps an extended holiday.

Unlike the US where US IMGs are virtually guaranteed a residency (at least in family practice) as long as they have good scores on their USMLEs the same cannot be said of Canada. The match there is so low and the number of canditates so high that many doctors there have given up trying to get a residency placement...on top of that you have the added disadvantage that the only thing left in the 2nd round of CaRMS is family med. which means that even if u decide that's not for you have have no say in the matter. Attending a US university (as a Canadian wanting to practice in Canada) is a much better option since you are at least able to enter the first round of CaRMs...but attending a Canadian unversity would be the best option.

Perhaps these students were hoping to practice in Ireland? Well if that's the case according to my research that's a nearly impossible goal as well. To get a residency in Ireland as a foreign student is also very difficult since they don't have enough residency spots for their own students, and Irish students are given first priority over other students.

In the US these students would also face additional hurdles since they aren't even US citizens, and thus they would eliminate themselves from some of the more competitive residency positions due to the fact that they need a visa to do residency there.

So I don't really understand the logic in leaving a Canadian university for an Irish one...especially since at the end of the day a JOB is more important (esp. with loans to pay off) than any "cultural experience!"
 

Buster Douglas

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Originally posted by slave4MD
...It's only a mere title alright, but imagine that you set up your clinic as a psychiatrist or pediatrician, per se...

...there are always the question of "what's a DO?" and sadly that can cost the DOs some patients...
The D.O. at the end of your name will not cost you patients.

Doctors refer to other doctors they know can get the job done not because of the intials after their name (or US/foreign degree). Do you think the NBA drafts black players because they're black? :rolleyes:

A good friend of mine's dad is a DO urologist. Sure, he manipulates testicles and prostates all day, but as far as I know there are no osteopathic manipulative techniques that that could explain the 6 BMWs in his driveway (one for every family member). He's doing just fine "finding patients" to the point that he's had to decline invitations to head the state's top urology program.
 

raspberry swirl

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amen to that. all the DOs i know have waiting lists just as long as anyone elses. no one is hurting for patients. maybe a small handful of older patients who may still have outdated opinions of DOs will go elsewhere, but its not gonna cause any gaping holes in a doctor's patient load. many times patients won't even know if their doctor is a DO (same as if they were an FMG) when my primary care physician refers me somewhere, i dont ask questions, i just go- MD, FMG, DO, what do i care? if my PCP says they're good, then thats all i need to know. i trust her, so i trust them. and she has referred me to DOs . . . now i dont know if i've ever been to an FMG . . .. :rolleyes:
 

leorl

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Redshifteffect,

I just read over the post I made last year, and I sincerely apologize, I will edit that aside out if you wish. Embarrassingly for me, I realize it sounds like I'm singling out a group of people, but that was not my intent at all. The point I was trying to get across was that RCSI, while being a fantastic school, did not appeal to me because its population seems rather homogeneous. While made up of international students which brings diversity to their student body, those students share similar - and sometimes singular - ambitions, backgrounds, and attitudes towards their study of medicine.

It's quite a hard thing to explain, how people from all sorts of cultures, beliefs, outlooks on life can somehow be very similar in terms of their approach to study/medicine and priorities. And I would find that environment quite stifling, and I know some students at RCSI do as well. Sometimes it seems all work and no play, and that's what I was trying to convey. What I meant by my little comment was that because of religion, people like the devout muslim malaysians do not choose to indulge in practices (binge drinking, toking, etc.) that those from western societies find "normal," but it's not just a feature of their culture, of course. The work ethic is quite admirable, it'd just be a little hard to deal with if everyone else approached it the same way, which undoubtedly would happen attending a university that is just a health sciences school. While culturally there's tons of diversity, there really actually isn't any diversity! I already went to an undergrad where this happened, I couldn't stand to be in it again, and this is why I chose Trinity - there's diversity from the fact that Trinity (or the other colleges for that matter) isn't just a medical/health science college.

Anyway, my comments were not meant to be taken as a judgment, although I can see why they were. My apologies to whoever found that offensive, I didn't think about it being taken that way when I wrote it. And I myself, have quite a few malaysian classmates/friends who I don't wish to offend.
 

redshifteffect

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Originally posted by leorl
Redshifteffect,

I just read over the post I made last year, and I sincerely apologize, I will edit that aside out if you wish. Embarrassingly for me, I realize it sounds like I'm singling out a group of people, but that was not my intent at all. The point I was trying to get across was that RCSI, while being a fantastic school, did not appeal to me because its population seems rather homogeneous. While made up of international students which brings diversity to their student body, those students share similar - and sometimes singular - ambitions, backgrounds, and attitudes towards their study of medicine.

It's quite a hard thing to explain, how people from all sorts of cultures, beliefs, outlooks on life can somehow be very similar in terms of their approach to study/medicine and priorities. And I would find that environment quite stifling, and I know some students at RCSI do as well. Sometimes it seems all work and no play, and that's what I was trying to convey. What I meant by my little comment was that because of religion, people like the devout muslim malaysians do not choose to indulge in practices (binge drinking, toking, etc.) that those from western societies find "normal," but it's not just a feature of their culture, of course. The work ethic is quite admirable, it'd just be a little hard to deal with if everyone else approached it the same way, which undoubtedly would happen attending a university that is just a health sciences school. While culturally there's tons of diversity, there really actually isn't any diversity! I already went to an undergrad where this happened, I couldn't stand to be in it again, and this is why I chose Trinity - there's diversity from the fact that Trinity (or the other colleges for that matter) isn't just a medical/health science college.

Anyway, my comments were not meant to be taken as a judgment, although I can see why they were. My apologies to whoever found that offensive, I didn't think about it being taken that way when I wrote it. And I myself, have quite a few malaysian classmates/friends who I don't wish to offend.

I think that there's no need to edit your comments at all...I think it is something that perhaps should be discussed...the only thing I was a little shocked about was that as you may know it just dawned on me how culturally ingorant we as North Americans can be...though when I came (to Australia) I met a lot of different cultures (particularly malaysians who seem to be the minorities that are in majority here) whom I have learned a lot from - I don't pretend to understand or agree with everything in their culture, but I believe that they like everyone deserves some measure of respect.

Anyway thanks for your comments.
 

pitman

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Originally posted by leorl
I just read over the post I made last year, and I sincerely apologize, I will edit that aside out if you wish. Embarrassingly for me, I realize it sounds like I'm singling out a group of people, but that was not my intent at all. The point I was trying to get across was that RCSI, while being a fantastic school, did not appeal to me because its population seems rather homogeneous. While made up of international students which brings diversity to their student body, those students share similar - and sometimes singular - ambitions, backgrounds, and attitudes towards their study of medicine.

I know how you feel, I thought there were just too many damn pale irish women in ireland for me to go there. So I'll be going to Brisbane but while 50% fewer irish, there are just too many damn asian women there, almost as bad as vancouver. ;)

In all seriousness though, the diversity factor is the only reason I was disappointed USydney rejected me after I confronted them on their unprofessional admissions behavior.

-pitman
 

pitman

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Originally posted by Buster Douglas
The D.O. at the end of your name will not cost you patients.

I agree...w/ practice in the US, although there is still some prejudice against them (even in the US).

I think the choice should boil down to one's personal weighing of the following:

1) DOs have an advantage over IMG MDs with gaining US res. in competitive specialties, with the advantage pretty large for the most competitive.

2) IMGs have a big advantage for practicing outside the US and the Canadian provinces that welcome them, since DOs are generally evaluated on an individual basis even by those countries that have accepted them.

3) Both have some (and different) stigma which needs to be *considered*.

-pitman
 

pitman

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Originally posted by raspberry swirl
if my PCP says they're good, then thats all i need to know. i trust her, so i trust them. and she has referred me to DOs . . .

Yeah, when I'm on PCP, I go ask Alice, and Alice says, "remember what the DOrmouse said", so I know DOs must be ok.

-pitman
 

raspberry swirl

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Originally posted by pitman
Yeah, when I'm on PCP, I go ask Alice, and Alice says, "remember what the DOrmouse said", so I know DOs must be ok.

-pitman

:rolleyes:
 

DocRuth

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I'm intrigued by this discussion because it demonstrates how diverse people's criteria are for making decisions about med school and medical careers. When it came to making my own decision, I had to make sure I had my goals and values figured out first. Having an adventure and as international an experience as possible was really really important for me, and those who suggest this can't be a major factor clearly do not suffer from itchy feet the way I do. Many of my friends in Canadian med schools think I'm insane for going away for school, but I think they are nuts for staying put. To each their own.

For me, the 3 international options I most seriously considered were the UK, Ireland, and Australia. Australia won out, partly because of the timing of applications, and because of the 3 it is the cheapest. The other 2 had lots going for them as well, and all 3 met my basic criteria of international respectability, going to school with locals in established schools in the local language, and less than 6 months of snow per year.
 

moo

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I think you should go to a school in the country in which you want to practice. I wanted to practice in the US (with a slight possibility of wanting to return to Canada) so I only applied to two Canadian schools while I applied to 20+ US schools. If you want to practice in Australia, apply to Australian schools, etc. I have been to Ireland and the UK and will probably do a rotation in Hong Kong in 4th year... I'd much rather do this than risk my career by going to an overseas school (not that I think Irish schools are bad... but as I said before it's easier to match to a US residency graduating from a US school REGARDLESS of whether you think the Irish school is more superior). I think it is hard to fathom seeing people wanting to pick Irish schools over Canadian schools if the same people wish to practice in Canada again.
 

leorl

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I'd echo the thoughts of DocRuth. Yes, there is a risk of not being able to practice exactly the way we'd want and having to accomodate for that, but I think really getting integrated in another foreign culture far outweighs the risk. Going abroad isn't the "safe" option, but if you live life always worrying about playing it safe, that's not living is it? Doing rotations in other places doesn't cut it 4-8 weeks somewhere really does not compare to spending years there, I don't think I could give this experience up for anything. It's got nothing to do with which system or country we personally think is better...in medical education, everyone pretty much learns the same stuff regardless of where you are anyway. It's just the chance to experience something different. I couldn't be happier with my decision. But yeah, to each his own.

Didn't pick the UK because the sterling was just too expensive and I didn't fancy being in a gray area, I have to say I was a bit prejudiced against the UK cuz all I'd been to was London, didn't like it that much. Australia - I applied but found the international admissions offices very very disorganized and unable to answer my questions. And since I already knew I liked Trinity, I just went back. I'm really happy here, and I think I'm much happier here than I would be in the US, even though I love it at home.
 

redshifteffect

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Originally posted by leorl
I'd echo the thoughts of DocRuth. Yes, there is a risk of not being able to practice exactly the way we'd want and having to accomodate for that, but I think really getting integrated in another foreign culture far outweighs the risk. Going abroad isn't the "safe" option, but if you live life always worrying about playing it safe, that's not living is it? Doing rotations in other places doesn't cut it 4-8 weeks somewhere really does not compare to spending years there, I don't think I could give this experience up for anything. It's got nothing to do with which system or country we personally think is better...in medical education, everyone pretty much learns the same stuff regardless of where you are anyway. It's just the chance to experience something different. I couldn't be happier with my decision. But yeah, to each his own.

Didn't pick the UK because the sterling was just too expensive and I didn't fancy being in a gray area, I have to say I was a bit prejudiced against the UK cuz all I'd been to was London, didn't like it that much. Australia - I applied but found the international admissions offices very very disorganized and unable to answer my questions. And since I already knew I liked Trinity, I just went back. I'm really happy here, and I think I'm much happier here than I would be in the US, even though I love it at home.

I think Moo is right though...while it's important to experience another culture (as I said..i've learned a lot about australians and malaysians since my time here) realistically if my major goal was to return to Canada then by not applying to a Canadian school or by rejecting one I would have thrown away any chance of coming back. As I said the US is a slightly different case b/c it's easier to get a residency...but if you look at the match rates for FMGs and IMGs in CaRMS its pretty much hopeless. That being said unless you went to a country where you could get a residency then ur other possible option of returning is blown...
 

leorl

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I keep forgetting it's different for Canadian students and that your requirements (provincial/national) are much stricter. I think some of the Canadians that attend Irish schools have either practicing in the UK/Europe or the US in mind, and aren't exactly trying to return to Canada. Redshift, where do you want to practice?
 

redshifteffect

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Originally posted by leorl
I keep forgetting it's different for Canadian students and that your requirements (provincial/national) are much stricter. I think some of the Canadians that attend Irish schools have either practicing in the UK/Europe or the US in mind, and aren't exactly trying to return to Canada. Redshift, where do you want to practice?

Right now i'm considering Australia...that's my point if u go abroad and u want to return to Canada u really have to be realistic.
 
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