Shadowing in the ED

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reluctantoptimism

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Has anyone here ever shadow in the ED? I'm shadowing in the ED soon and I just need some insight into what I might see. I'm being granted shadowing privileges for a few shifts (approx. 8 hours per shift) and I'm wondering how much downtime is normal. I chose to shadow on the weekend because, from what I've seen, more medical emergencies tend to occur towards the end of the week.

Thanks

P.S. I hope everyone one is gearing up for the summer! I'm ready to work!

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Eh, that's thing thing about the ED, there is really not a "normal" level of activity. Depends on the hospital/location as well.
 
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Has anyone here ever shadow in the ED? I'm shadowing in the ED soon and I just need some insight into what I might see. I'm being granted shadowing privileges for a few shifts (approx. 8 hours per shift) and I'm wondering how much downtime is normal. I chose to shadow on the weekend because, from what I've seen, more medical emergencies tend to occur towards the end of the week.

Thanks

P.S. I hope everyone one is gearing up for the summer! I'm ready to work!

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It's completely inconsistent. Honestly, though, for shadowing, you should hope for it to be a bit slow, or the doc won't have much time to talk to you. On slow days they will explain things to you and pick out interesting cases. On a no-lunch-breaks day, you'll see more things, sure, but you won't get much explanation or time to ask questions.
 
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Has anyone here ever shadow in the ED? I'm shadowing in the ED soon and I just need some insight into what I might see. I'm being granted shadowing privileges for a few shifts (approx. 8 hours per shift) and I'm wondering how much downtime is normal. I chose to shadow on the weekend because, from what I've seen, more medical emergencies tend to occur towards the end of the week.

Thanks

P.S. I hope everyone one is gearing up for the summer! I'm ready to work!

Sometimes it's all-beds-full running around and sometimes you see 2 patients during a 12-hour shift. Are you shadowing in a rural area or in the city?
I would bring a book/something just in case, but if there is downtime it would be better used talking to the physician as long as they're not too occupied typing up charts. Also a lot can be learned from talking to the nurses/technicians as well!
When I was in a semi-rural area, on a really slow day the physician showed me pictures of his son going skiing for the first time for 2 hours. On a busy day, it was pustule-enema-burns and all that good stuff nonstop :)
 
Keep your phone in your pocket and leave your latest NYT best seller at home. Don't ever give the impression of being anything less than 100% interested in what is going on, all the time. Nothing is more worrisome than somebody that is txt'ing all the time in the OR or playing angrybirds while on rounds. Instead, take brief and simple notes about the diseases that you see to use for your own reference & learning. If you have downtime, crack out "pocket medicine" or "surgical recall" and try to read around the patients you have seen that day. You won't understand everything, but we all start somewhere. Also remember that it's a delicate balance between talking too much and talking too little. Have some situational awareness regarding the level of acuity for any given situation and think about your conversations accordingly. Does the ED attending want to really hear your question about skin tags while he is putting in a femoral line during a code? As you get to know the doctor and your surroundings in the hospital better, it is easier to show some of your personality and interests in a non-intrusive way. A professional demeanor and appearance go a long way and will help you to get the most out of your experience....
 
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Keep your phone in your pocket and leave your latest NYT best seller at home. Don't ever give the impression of being anything less than 100% interested in what is going on, all the time. Nothing is more worrisome than somebody that is txt'ing all the time in the OR or playing angrybirds while on rounds. Instead, take brief and simple notes about the diseases that you see to use for your own reference & learning. If you have downtime, crack out "pocket medicine" or "surgical recall" and try to read around the patients you have seen that day. You won't understand everything, but we all start somewhere. Also remember that it's a delicate balance between talking too much and talking too little. Have some situational awareness regarding the level of acuity for any given situation and think about your conversations accordingly. Does the ED attending want to really hear your question about skin tags while he is putting in a femoral line during a code? As you get to know the doctor and your surroundings in the hospital better, it is easier to show some of your personality and interests in a non-intrusive way. A professional demeanor and appearance go a long way and will help you to get the most out of your experience....
Don't crack out "pocket medicine" or "surgical recall" while shadowing. Just...don't do it.
You're not shadowing to learn medicine. You're shadowing to learn what the day-to-day is like for a doc.
 
My experience in an urban ED:

-Friday, Saturday, and Sunday afternoons and evenings are usually the busiest - 3pm to midnight est. (Exception: If there's a major television event or sporting event it might be silent. It tends to get busy after the TV show/game is over.)
-Weekends before 11am are the slowest.
 
As already stated, the ED is tough to judge when it comes to volume. In the winter, it was basically always busy whether it was weekend or weekday. With the warm weather here now, it's even harder to judge.
@ventulus18 pretty much hit the needle on the head. No matter what you see, show interest, take notes, and ask questions.

Watch youtube clips of this show then remember that 98% its vastly more boring than this.
W3PeEjo.jpg
Damn good show. Do they still make new episodes or do you know if full episodes are available online?
 
I saw a central line being done, and passed out (I kinda expected this to happen :()
Make sure you EAT before you go, especially if its an all day thing.
 
I saw a central line being done, and passed out (I kinda expected this to happen :()
Make sure you EAT before you go, especially if its an all day thing.
Where was the line? (femoral, IJ, subclavian, etc...)
I'm guessing you aren't planning to observe surgery anytime soon?
 
Where was the line? (femoral, IJ, subclavian, etc...)
I'm guessing you aren't planning to observe surgery anytime soon?


I'm pretty sure IJ. It genuinely has me scared. Normally I'm not one to get queasy about such things.

The doctor told me that when I went down head first, it sounded like a watermelon hit the floor. it's the second instance where this has happened, so I guess it's something I need to learn to deal with. Any suggestions?


I think I hadn't eaten both times all day.
 
Friday, Saturday, and Sunday afternoons and evenings are usually the busiest

While every facility is different, for most EDs Mondays have the highest volume.

(Exception: If there's a major television event or sporting event it might be silent. It tends to get busy after the TV show/game is over.)

Oh this is so very true and it drives me crazy. There's always a wave of "I'm having a medical emergency which has been going on for hours/days/weeks, but I wanted to wait until after the game was over to come in..."
How much of a medical emergency can it really be?
 
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I'm pretty sure IJ. It genuinely has me scared. Normally I'm not one to get queasy about such things.

The doctor told me that when I went down head first, it sounded like a watermelon hit the floor. it's the second instance where this has happened, so I guess it's something I need to learn to deal with. Any suggestions?


I think I hadn't eaten both times all day.
Um, I honestly haven't dealt with this much...I'm worse off hearing about things than seeing them, and surgery has yet to freak me out.
Broken fingers, though, those get to me, so here's what I've done when those start to weird me out:
Definitely eat...sounds like you know that's an issue already.
Find something concrete to focus your brain on, instead of letting it go into some sort of freaked-out spiral. For me, this can be anything from trying to dispassionately describe what you're seeing (OK, here it looks as if the the 2-4th proximal phalanges are fractured and sticking through the skin...or in your case, now the doctor is cannulating the internal jugular vein - the color of the blood and the slow, constant dribble when the syringe is removed indicate that placement is likely correct, etc.). If that fails, I fall back on the tricks in Ender's Game/shadow...doubling numbers in my head or taking deep breaths while concentrating very hard on wiggling my toes (that one is most useful if you've had too much to drink, but hey).
If it's too much, take a break. Step back for a few seconds, go 'find a better angle' which magically requires ducking behind the curtain en route or walking around the other side of the gurney.
Bend your knees.
Try a bunch of different things - throw it all at the wall and use what sticks.
 
While every facility is different, for most EDs Mondays have the highest volume.



Oh this is so very true and it drives me crazy. There's always a wave of "I'm having a medical emergency which has been going on for hours/days/weeks, but I wanted to wait until after the game was over to come in..."
How much of a medical emergency can it really be?
On the other hand, it's a hidden perk of being scheduled DURING the actual event. You may miss the Superbowl, but walking out of the empty ER after seeing 10pts all day and waving to the busload of people lining up in the waiting room is wonderful.

Holidays are also wonderful for the "I've had SOB and also chest pains and also left sided weakness and also vertigo and also nausea for 6mo now, but I ignored it. Now my granddaughter finally saw me in person and dragged my ass to the ER, so please fix everything at once when I don't have my med list, haven't taken my HTN medications in 4d, don't know my medical or surgical history, won't tell you my symptom history because I don't want to be here in the first place, and can't remember the name of my doctor back in Texas, but I do know that I take some mexican diet pill which I also didn't bring with me. Have fun deducing my medical history while not being able to send me home due to my advanced age, vague, yet ominous symptom list, and helicopter family!!
 
Also remember that it's a delicate balance between talking too much and talking too little.
I always wonder about this. I shadow weekends/nights mostly since I work, so it's usually pretty busy. The doc does tend to express how "crazy and stressed" he feels (Though he seems a little melodramatic, every patient who isn't a bucket of sunshine is a massive d-bag according to this guy). We go into the room and I generally introduce myself, but I don't know if/when to chime in. I take some notes, and ask the doctor plenty of questions when we're not around the patient, but I think on average I say something other than "hello I'm ..."/"goodbye, feel better" to one in three patients. I only really talk significantly with patients when the doc leaves me alone with them. I don't think it's a big deal, but I have no baseline for normal, and some times I worry that I come across as socially inept or timid because I rarely talk with patients. Really I'm just trying not to be disruptive since I offer nothing from a medical perspective.
 
Please don't do Pocket Medicine as a premed. One thing for senior med students but we don't expect you to know anything - or be able to describe it. This coming from soon to be PGY-1 in EM this summer.

Good luck. Just judge when it's ok to ask questions or say do you have time to answer a question about the case we just saw.
 
While every facility is different, for most EDs Mondays have the highest volume.

and they all seem to SLAM the ED right after dinner... it's like "hmmm, what are we going to do tonight? Let's go to the ER after we eat dinner! :D"

7pm rush. =/
 
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I might be in the minority here, but I just want to add to make sure that you get different clinical experiences other than the ED. EM is for a variety of reasons different than your typical outpatient physician, and IMO I don't think EM lends itself particularly well to shadowing for the reasons mentioned above.

That's not to say that shadowing in the ED is bad. It isn't. Just make sure you have a wider breadth of experiences.


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I have a bit of a different view of the ED, as I don't shadow, but I work in it full time. I'm an ER nurse at a Level 1 Trauma Center. We get quite a bit of students who shadow doctors. Our busiest days are actually Monday. Termed "Medical Monday" and then we have "Trauma Tuesday". It never fails those days we are hit the hardest. I'm that cool nurse that will bring you in the trauma, or in the room of the patient that's in shock and put you at the head of the bed next to the glidescope so you can see and watch everything while your doctor is doing an intubation. I seriously hate students who waste a great opportunity. I will gown you up and have you all up in the action. I hope you meet a kick a** nurse like me, doubt it... but seriously soak up everything. Ask questions. When he pulls up the x-ray literally be next to him/her and ask what you see. Utilize this time. If a patient needs a blanket and you happen to be next to the warmer, get it, really use this time to get to know the patients. Pay attention to your doctors, and even your mid-levels. There is so much breadth of knowledge in the ED it is ridiculous.
 
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I have a bit of a different view of the ED, as I don't shadow, but I work in it full time. I'm an ER nurse at a Level 1 Trauma Center. We get quite a bit of students who shadow doctors. Our busiest days are actually Monday. Termed "Medical Monday" and then we have "Trauma Tuesday". It never fails those days we are hit the hardest. I'm that cool nurse that will bring you in the trauma, or in the room of the patient that's in shock and put you at the head of the bed next to the glidescope so you can see and watch everything while your doctor is doing an intubation. I seriously hate students who waste a great opportunity. I will gown you up and have you all up in the action. I hope you meet a kick a** nurse like me, doubt it... but seriously soak up everything. Ask questions. When he pulls up the x-ray literally be next to him/her and ask what you see. Utilize this time. If a patient needs a blanket and you happen to be next to the warmer, get it, really use this time to get to know the patients. Pay attention to your doctors, and even your mid-levels. There is so much breadth of knowledge in the ED it is ridiculous.

and now I wish I lived in Texas
 
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You know... Texas is PRETTY sweet. But strangely I want to go to medical school out of state. Good Luck OP. Hope you have a great experience!
 
The point of shadowing, in my view, is to learn as much as you can about medicine in its entire context so ask as many questions as you can while avoid sharing any of the tidbits of medical knowledge you do have. I would avoid asking too many questions in front of patients (the questions rarely need to be answered right then and there) and as others have mentioned use good situational awareness. Some medical professionals are all about teaching while other might find the questions annoying. For those I'd just go into 'observe' mode. Take advantage of the knowledge and experience you have around you, though.
My best advice would be to make friends with the nurses. (As a doctor as well) Nurses are the eyes, ears, and heart of a hospital and truly understand the workings of the hospital. They can guide you to cool stuff as well as let you know the doctors that will teach you and doctors that think pre-med students are just an annoyence. Hopefully you'll find a cool nurse like prettyNURSEtoMD to guide and teach you.
 
Has anyone here ever shadow in the ED? I'm shadowing in the ED soon and I just need some insight into what I might see. I'm being granted shadowing privileges for a few shifts (approx. 8 hours per shift) and I'm wondering how much downtime is normal. I chose to shadow on the weekend because, from what I've seen, more medical emergencies tend to occur towards the end of the week.

Thanks

P.S. I hope everyone one is gearing up for the summer! I'm ready to work!

View attachment 180989

I wouldn't worry so much about the volume and focus more on paying attention to how the doctors interact with other physicians, staff, and the patients. You're there to find out if you want to be a physician, not to pick a specialty or gawk at sick people or attempt to learn medicine. Down time is the most useful part of shadowing. That's when you can ask about the trade-offs in medical training and practice, nuts and bolts about monthly schedules, day in the life, etc.

As NickNaylor pointed out, although the ED gets a lot of shadowing students, what goes on there is very different from almost any other specialty, so it's not that informative about the "do I want to be a doctor" question since your future practice is likely to look very different from what you see.

I think you can learn as much or more by spending a few hours on YouTube watching videos like this than by standing in an ED for 8 hours with little idea what's going on around you. But you need to punch that time card to be truthful on AMCAS and have a few touching anecdotes for your essays.
 
The point of shadowing, in my view, is to learn as much as you can about medicine in its entire context so ask as many questions as you can while avoid sharing any of the tidbits of medical knowledge you do have. I would avoid asking too many questions in front of patients (the questions rarely need to be answered right then and there) and as others have mentioned use good situational awareness. Some medical professionals are all about teaching while other might find the questions annoying. For those I'd just go into 'observe' mode. Take advantage of the knowledge and experience you have around you, though.
My best advice would be to make friends with the nurses. (As a doctor as well) Nurses are the eyes, ears, and heart of a hospital and truly understand the workings of the hospital. They can guide you to cool stuff as well as let you know the doctors that will teach you and doctors that think pre-med students are just an annoyence. Hopefully you'll find a cool nurse like prettyNURSEtoMD to guide and teach you.
I've found the nurses to be far less willing to explain things than the physicians. However, I have encountered only 1 or 2 who are unwilling to encourage volunteers and shadows to find a good vantage on a procedure...it's not as rare as portrayed here. The best nurses when shadowing are the ones who are also curious and ask the doctors questions...then you don't have to!
The docs that think you are an annoyance won't let you shadow.
1+ on the 'ask questions when you're out of the room' point. Don't ask while in the room. It's just rude.
 
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Some nurses are ruthless. I even experienced nurses that didn't want to ME, and I'm their nursing student. That's just the nature of the beast. Let it humble you, because your patient's will be WORSE. And to the person that says asking questions in the room is "rude". I disagree, I think you have to gauge that on the personality, and the environment at the time. I've seen plenty doctors ask students who are shadowing, do you have any questions, what would you like to know about this patient and their condition. Keep in mind, our doctors will always introduce the student that's with them and let them know that they are here to learn, and will be with him/her throughout the day.
 
be prepared to see lots of vaginal bleeders and abdominal pains
last summer when i shadowed in inner city level 1 trauma center, i expected to see lots of traumas, etc but saw waaaayyy more vag bleeders and abdominal pains than traumas lol. oh and you will probably see narcotic seekers too depending on the location
 
I saw a central line being done, and passed out (I kinda expected this to happen :()

Plz plan on NOT becoming a patient during your shadowing day. Some doctors don't find that humorous.:shrug:
 
I chose to shadow on the weekend because, from what I've seen, more medical emergencies tend to occur towards the end of the week.

Every friday night overnight shift I have spent in the ED has been extremely boring. Like 1-2 patients from 1am to 5 or 6 am. Even from 7pm to midnight it seems less busy than most other days. Granted it is limited experience at a single ED so yours could be different.
 
Some nurses are ruthless. I even experienced nurses that didn't want to ME, and I'm their nursing student. That's just the nature of the beast. Let it humble you, because your patient's will be WORSE. And to the person that says asking questions in the room is "rude". I disagree, I think you have to gauge that on the personality, and the environment at the time. I've seen plenty doctors ask students who are shadowing, do you have any questions, what would you like to know about this patient and their condition. Keep in mind, our doctors will always introduce the student that's with them and let them know that they are here to learn, and will be with him/her throughout the day.
I'll ask the patients questions, sure...but I wouldn't ask the doc questions. No one likes being talked about by people right in front of them. It IS rude...it may be the norm in more academic environments, but it's still rude. Ask 2min later when you're out of the room.
And yes, some nurses are ruthless...as are some docs, some techs and even some patients. It's the nature of the game. However, I feel as if I see more 'hey, do you want to see this' nurses than 'OMG your gaze is a contaminant go away' types...those tend to congregate in the OR.
 
I'll ask the patients questions, sure...but I wouldn't ask the doc questions. No one likes being talked about by people right in front of them. It IS rude...it may be the norm in more academic environments, but it's still rude. Ask 2min later when you're out of the room.
And yes, some nurses are ruthless...as are some docs, some techs and even some patients. It's the nature of the game. However, I feel as if I see more 'hey, do you want to see this' nurses than 'OMG your gaze is a contaminant go away' types...those tend to congregate in the OR.

Maybe at a doctor's office I could understand the environment. Our hospital encourages questions. Whether it be in or out the room. I've yet to meet one patient to complain about a student asking questions about them or anything considering we are at a "teaching" facility, and that's in the consents they sign to begin with. "Please be aware that we are teaching facility, and the doctors may at times have students present, and you might be treated by a resident physician." Maybe it's different at your facility, but to each their own. It matters not. And your capitalization of "IS" to put more emphasis matters not, nor does it mean that I'm or the other student is wrong if they decide to ask questions while a patient is present. Maybe you're referring to the nature of the question? Nevertheless, if you find it rude, that's you, but you can't speak for every situation, or for the OP.
 
Maybe at a doctor's office I could understand the environment. Our hospital encourages questions. Whether it be in or out the room. I've yet to meet one patient to complain about a student asking questions about them or anything considering we are at a "teaching" facility, and that's in the consents they sign to begin with. "Please be aware that we are teaching facility, and the doctors may at times have students present, and you might be treated by a resident physician." Maybe it's different at your facility, but to each their own. It matters not. And your capitalization of "IS" to put more emphasis matters not, nor does it mean that I'm or the other student is wrong if they decide to ask questions while a patient is present. Maybe you're referring to the nature of the question? Nevertheless, if you find it rude, that's you, but you can't speak for every situation, or for the OP.
:shrug: As I said, I will ask the patient a question, but I won't sit there and talk about them as if they are 2yrs old, or as if they aren't there. I'm sure I'll have to at some point, but since that is not yet the case, I avoid it.
Just because something is accepted/normal in your environment, or even necessary, doesn't mean it's not rude.
 
:shrug: As I said, I will ask the patient a question, but I won't sit there and talk about them as if they are 2yrs old, or as if they aren't there. I'm sure I'll have to at some point, but since that is not yet the case, I avoid it.
Just because something is accepted/normal in your environment, or even necessary, doesn't mean it's not rude.

Nor does it mean that it is... That conversation is over, or I thought...?
 
Shadowing in the ED can be a lot of fun. When I was in EMT class and did 'rotations' (glorified shadowing), I was assigned to a nurse each shift. It always comes down to the nurses and having a good one or around a good one can make or break your experience. If a critical patient comes in you better believe the doctor will abandon you for the patient without hesitation, that's why you need the nurses to get you in to see the cool stuff (particularly if the doctor is swamped.

I'll give you an example Shift 1 was really busy, but I was assigned to a nurse who just told me to wonder around; I was allowed to walk in and observe anything I wanted. That night (over the course of 5 hours) there were two STEMI's, cardiac arrest, head trauma, respiratory arrest, scalp avulsion (skull visible) and a patient with an LVAD. The coolest thing I did that night was chat with the LVAD patient about her experiences (very fascinating device BTW). Don't get me wrong, watching the other stuff is cool but when you do it from quite a distance (not even in the trauma bay) it isn't always that exciting.

Now Shift 2 was slow with only one major patient, but my nurse was amazing. We had the patient who had been run over. I was in the trauma room the whole time. I helped transport to the patient to CT scan, bring him back to the trauma bay, I was at the patients side when they intubated him, helped restrain him when he woke up and wasn't so happy they had a tube down his throat, helped change his C collar, helped insert an anal probe, transport back to CT scan and deliver him to the Surgical ICU. Because I was allowed to do all this I had frequent interaction with the physicians and was able to ask them plenty of questions (Whats making him bleed out of his ear? Whats causing his SpO2 to drop?) and watch their thought process (Should we give him more meds to relax him? But risk dropping his BP or let him freak out extubate himself and risk aspiration with a stable BP?).

Now my experience was probably a little more extensive than most as I was technically a student. However, even as an observer you could do everything I did minus actually touching the patient (that is at the discretion of the attending usually). The moral of the story is that the nurses can make or break your experience. Also, I want to mention that your experience often does come down to the hospital you go to. If it's an academic medical center then the staff is used to teaching, having observers and answering questions versus a small community ED.
 
Things will get busier as the nights progress. Like others have said: Friday and Saturday nights are going to be the most active, especially if you live anywhere highly urbanized.
 
1) Go around and introduce yourself to everyone who seems free when you first get there. The ED can be a busy place, with lots of people coming and going. Either they won't care or they will come find you to show you something interesting later.

2) Finding one or two people to shadow is probably better than doing everything, as they can explain what is going on. Usually a semi junior person is good. Really senior people are more jaded (although some love teaching, and know everything, including what/how to teach), and really junior people are still learning themselves, so are stressed and busy.

3) Try to learn about EKGs a bit before you go. Almost every patient will have one or at least a heart monitor, so it's something you can actually observe. You can look online about some of the basic ways to diagnose a heart attack, and do some online quizzes, etc.

4) Put some cliff bars or something similar in your pocket or bag. There may not be a good place to put a backpack, except under a desk, so don't leave anything valuable in it, busy EDs can be enriched for criminals. Just snacks and a water bottle or something with caffeine if you need it. If you don't have a white coat, pants like cargo pants with pockets might be good.

5) Eat a good, full meal before you do your shift (see #6).

6) If you feel faint, be aware, tell people right away, and try to sit down, even on the floor. You don't want to become a patient. It's super common, and I know a neurosurgeon who fainted the first time he shadowed in the ED.

7) I like to keep my size clean gloves in my front pocket, but that might tempt you to touch something and get in trouble.

8) If it's slow, just talk to people: nurses and doctors alike. Ask about things like how to diagnose stroke, MI, PE, sepsis/shock, broken bones, etc. Ask about patient flow and what things on the big board/display mean. Just ask a bored person what they most commonly do. You won't be bored if you're learning something.
 
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