Should DOs have Joint AOA/AHA Residencies, Match EXAMS (PICK TWO OPTIONS)

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SHOULD DOs have Joint Recidency, MATCH and EXAMS?

  • YES - JOINT RECIDENCY AND MATCH

    Votes: 60 65.9%
  • YES - JOINT RECIDENCY ONLY

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • YES - JOINT MATCH ONLY

    Votes: 17 18.7%
  • NO - NONE OF THE ABOVE

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • YES - JOINT EXAMS (USMLEs) + OMM exam for DOs

    Votes: 51 56.0%
  • NO - KEEP EXAMS AS IS

    Votes: 11 12.1%

  • Total voters
    91

docbill

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Should DOs have Joint AOA/AMA Residencies, Match and EXAMS?

(PICK TWO OPTIONS)
Select one for the first 4 Options.
And Select one for the last 2 Options.

Please keep this for DO students/Physicians & applicants.
No MD applicants PLEASE.

Thanks
BA

PS. ASSUME PROPER DO REPRESENTATION ON USMLEs, MATCH and BOARDS.
(DON'T WORRY ABOUT % THEY WILL BE UPDATED AS WE GO)

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I would love to take the USMLE and just have to pass a OMT portion. Hell, make it a really hard OMT section that makes sure I know what I am talking about.

I feel maybe then the money typically spent on COMLEX can be pushed toward the OMT suppliment exam (and possibly physical exam as well) and other worthwhile (key word) topics.

Seems silly to have two exam testing to see if your competent to be a physician. Yes there are philosophy differences but litigation has made the practice of medicine based upon standards of care.

Until then I am going to study for both COMLEX and USMLE at the same time for next year's exam......

P.S. there would of course have to be some representation of the DO's on the USMLE examination board but I assumed that in the original poll.
 
My concern with joint exams is that it would dilute the identity of osteopathy.

But wait! the response will be--we can have a supplemental OMM exam.

Exactly what I'm afraid of. Osteopathy tends to be defined too much by OMM, which really is a very small part of what we do. Most DO's don't practice it, and I really don't think this is because they just prefer not to--it's a fairly easy way to increase revenue. It just has limited applicability.

Osteopathic medicine seems to me far more about a focus on practice and service than OMM. Allopathic medicine, on the other hand, is too big to be able to afford this focus--it has to make room academic medicine, research, etc.--areas which are represented in osteopathy, but on a much more limited level.

COMLEX is intended to reflect this. Boards are designed to predict postgrad aptitude, and the definition of aptitude, while much the same for the lower 80% of test-takers MD or DO, is going to differ for that top 20%. The USMLE will use the upper-difficulty questions to get a bead on who's got the knowledge (and commitment to sacrificing vast amounts of time) necessary for research, ten-year residency and fellowship tracks, etc. The COMLEX will (or would, if it were written better), will identify a somewhat different skill set.

And then there's the bottom quintile, who would likely be over their heads in a competitive residency probably, contrary to common opinion, for reasons of stamina and desire rather than inherent ability. They'll make fine primary care docs though. Combining the exams would knock some very competent folks out of practice.

A better idea, maybe: Why not offer COMLEX to foreign docs on the condition that they take, say, a year of intensive OMM and commit to primary care? The halls of test prep companies are filled with despairing FMGs who are perfectly good docs reduced to secretarial and restaurant work because they can't pass the USMLE, geared as it is to a very specific style of medical education that's not theirs. If we really wanted to increase osteopathy's clout, we'd be going international. That, rather than the dim halls of allo-style superspecialization and academic med divorced from practice, is the real frontier.
 
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LukeWhite said:
My concern with joint exams is that it would dilute the identity of osteopathy.

But wait! the response will be--we can have a supplemental OMM exam.

Exactly what I'm afraid of. Osteopathy tends to be defined too much by OMM, which really is a very small part of what we do. Most DO's don't practice it, and I really don't think this is because they just prefer not to--it's a fairly easy way to increase revenue. It just has limited applicability..

Luke- I hear ya but you're wrong. OMM is osteopathy. This
is the difference we have to offer.


Osteopathic medicine seems to me far more about a focus on practice and service than OMM. Allopathic medicine, on the other hand, is too big to be able to afford this focus--it has to make room academic medicine, research, etc.--areas which are represented in osteopathy, but on a much more limited level..[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by practice and service? What are we doing that MDs aren't?

COMLEX is intended to reflect this. Boards are designed to predict postgrad aptitude, and the definition of aptitude, while much the same for the lower 80% of test-takers MD or DO, is going to differ for that top 20%. The USMLE will use the upper-difficulty questions to get a bead on who's got the knowledge (and commitment to sacrificing vast amounts of time) necessary for research, ten-year residency and fellowship tracks, etc. The COMLEX will (or would, if it were written better), will identify a somewhat different skill set..[/QUOTE]

What skill set would that be?...Maybe OMM? :D

And then there's the bottom quintile, who would likely be over their heads in a competitive residency probably, contrary to common opinion, for reasons of stamina and desire rather than inherent ability. They'll make fine primary care docs though. Combining the exams would knock some very competent folks out of practice..[/QUOTE]

So the Comlex, as is, lets these fine failures continue in practice?

A better idea, maybe: Why not offer COMLEX to foreign docs on the condition that they take, say, a year of intensive OMM and commit to primary care? The halls of test prep companies are filled with despairing FMGs who are perfectly good docs reduced to secretarial and restaurant work because they can't pass the USMLE, geared as it is to a very specific style of medical education that's not theirs. .[/QUOTE]

So they can't pass the USMLE, why would they be able to step up to the Comlex? I'm at a great US school and that test is scaring the $hite outta me. You belittle our education and degree with this suggestion.

If we really wanted to increase osteopathy's clout, we'd be going international. That, rather than the dim halls of allo-style superspecialization and academic med divorced from practice, is the real frontier.[/QUOTE]

I fear you and your ilk are badly mistaken about this frontier. The real adventure is moving mainstream medicine into a more holistic, affordable, human-based, hands-on discipline.
MD schools have already embraced so many of the tenents taught to osteopaths. Not because they suddenly realized that DOs are cool, rather this human medicine has been recognized as a superior form of practice with greater patient/physician satisfaction. Osteopathy does not hold all the secrets to this profession. In fact, I fear those like you who fear "dilution" of the DO wil keep us in the "dim" cave of yesteryear's medicine.


And would somebody pleez fill me on the secret to multiple quote c/p.
 
For multiple quotes you need to have [ quote] (without the space) or [ quote=poster's name] at the beginning of each one ;)

*Clarifying: you also need a [ /quote] at the end of each one (again without the space)
 
Fueg,

So what you're saying is that an FMG who can't pass the USMLE is a failure (while presumably the 30% of DOs who try and fail aren't?), osteopathy is defined by techniques a fraction of ts members use, and the COMLEX is just as tough as the USMLE? Now that's a set of contentions I'd be interested in seeing you defend.

To say that OMM is what defines osteopathy when something like 10% of DO's practice OMM, and yet 25% of FPs are DOs despite the fact that we comprise only 5% of the total physician population misses the bigger picture. If we're defined by OMM, it's something we're not doing. However, it's indisputable that DO's are far more oriented towards primary care and, yes, frontier medicine.

Moreover, to suggest that OMM is unique to osteopathy is a bit of a stretch. Chiropractors, in aggregate, do it better. Moreover, we've certainly no monopoly over MDs on manipulative medicine. OMM is a very specific niche that has definite uses. Kind of strange, though, to define our discipline by something that almost none of its members use and that many outside the discipline *do* use.

As far as foreign doctors and COMLEX go, yes, many who can't pass the USMLE might very well be able to pass the COMLEX after a round of intensive OMM training. Call it belittling if you like; if I thought the education was inferior I'd have gone to an allopathic school. COMLEX tests a broader and more practical skill set on a somewhat more superficial level. It is an easier test. Arguing otherwise indicates some disregard for reality, and heaven help you if you plan on taking both and think that the USMLE's going to be the same level of intensity as the COMLEX.

If you want to talk belittling, calling an FMG who may have been practicing for years in his or her home country a "fine failure" simply because they can't pass the highly idiosyncratic USMLE reveals a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. I'd encourage you to meet a few FMGs struggling to take the test before you judge their general capacity.

And yes, MDs have embraced many tenets taught by osteopaths, just like we've started to prescribe medication this past hundred years or so. Just calling something yours doesn't make it so. All in all, osteopathy's coming to be defined more by a whining and wishful insistence on its own uniqueness than anything else, and that's a shame.
 
LukeWhite said:
Fueg,

So what you're saying is that an FMG who can't pass the USMLE is a failure (while presumably the 30% of DOs who try and fail aren't?), osteopathy is defined by techniques a fraction of ts members use, and the COMLEX is just as tough as the USMLE? Now that's a set of contentions I'd be interested in seeing you defend..

I really don't know the stats on the failure rate for FMGs, but the 30% fail rate by DOs is due to us not being prepped for this test. We are trained for the COMLEX! That's why we pass it. These folks are trained for the USMLE and still can't hack.
I haven't taken either exam yet, but yeah I think the COMLEX is just as hard. Now it may be a p!ss-poorly written exam, but I still think it's gotta stand up.

LukeWhite said:
To say that OMM is what defines osteopathy when something like 10% of DO's practice OMM, and yet 25% of FPs are DOs despite the fact that we comprise only 5% of the total physician population misses the bigger picture. If we're defined by OMM, it's something we're not doing. However, it's indisputable that DO's are far more oriented towards primary care and, yes, frontier medicine.
.
If only 10% of DOs practice OMM then they are simply physicians who elect to not use a great tool. Their locale in the sticks doesn't define their profession.

25% of FPs are DOS? I really did not know that. I can believe that 25% of DOs are FPs. Do you have a citation?

LukeWhite said:
Moreover, to suggest that OMM is unique to osteopathy is a bit of a stretch. Chiropractors, in aggregate, do it better. Moreover, we've certainly no monopoly over MDs on manipulative medicine. OMM is a very specific niche that has definite uses. Kind of strange, though, to define our discipline by something that almost none of its members use and that many outside the discipline *do* use.
.
A couple of my attendings would go to the mat w/ you suggesting that chiros approximate OMM. "None" is a little overstatement eh? I agree that we have no monopoly on manipulation, but the desimination of this tool broadens the scope of medicine in total, and elevates the DO specifically.

LukeWhite said:
As far as foreign doctors and COMLEX go, yes, many who can't pass the USMLE might very well be able to pass the COMLEX after a round of intensive OMM training. Call it belittling if you like; if I thought the education was inferior I'd have gone to an allopathic school. COMLEX tests a broader and more practical skill set on a somewhat more superficial level. It is an easier test. Arguing otherwise indicates some disregard for reality, and heaven help you if you plan on taking both and think that the USMLE's going to be the same level of intensity as the COMLEX.
.
I really need some stats on that "easier test" thing. Different, thicker, funny smelling maybe, but easier?

LukeWhite said:
If you want to talk belittling, calling an FMG who may have been practicing for years in his or her home country a "fine failure" simply because they can't pass the highly idiosyncratic USMLE reveals a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. I'd encourage you to meet a few FMGs struggling to take the test before you judge their general capacity.
.
As an RN I worked for years at institutions that catered to getting these folks boarded. If you want to get scared sometime, I'll buy you a frosty something and then talk your ear right off with one anecdote after another. These were not just hard working third world future waiters. I recall a certain dashing Western european person who collapsed on a gurney crying when he couldn't interpret an EKG. (oops ya got one without the beer :laugh: )He's one that prepped enough and passed the USMLE. I've seen their general capacity and found it fairly vacant. I have met some of these folks that could hang, but then they had smoked their licensing boards.

LukeWhite said:
And yes, MDs have embraced many tenets taught by osteopaths, just like we've started to prescribe medication this past hundred years or so. Just calling something yours doesn't make it so. All in all, osteopathy's coming to be defined more by a whining and wishful insistence on its own uniqueness than anything else, and that's a shame.
Actually you substituted "by" for "to". Read the post, it's an easy mistake, but an important distinction.
As far as the "whining, wishful insistance on uniqueness" goes, aren't you the one who was worried about "diluting" osteopathy.
I want a profession that embraces technology and research to make me a better doctor. I will be a physician long before I am an osteopath. OMM will be my "uniqueness" everything else will hopefully match the accumen and competence of my MD colleagues. Having lived in that world, I know my education is giving me just that. Combining these exams will give me the opportunity to demonstrate this.
Our colleges will have to adjust to the USMLE curriculum in the form of more Biochem and Epidemiology. I don't see how this is a bad thing.
 
AS OF THIS MORNING:

YES - JOINT RECIDENCY AND MATCH 32/47 = 69.1 %
YES - JOINT RECIDENCY ONLY 2/47 4.25%
YES - JOINT MATCH ONLY 11/47 23.4% (IN REALITY = 92.5% if add to first option)
NO - NONE OF THE ABOVE 2/47 4.25%

YES - JOINT EXAMS (USMLEs) + OMM exam for DOs 28 82.35%
NO - KEEP EXAMS AS IS 17.6 %
 
In my work... in a hospital... I see and hear MDs trying to integrate more and more wholistic approach to medicine, body "limited" self repair, as well as the need for prevention. Unfortunatly it is not moving fast enough.

In Cardiology, I know many of the drugs used don't work or proof of them helping. Yet the patient insists on going outside and having a smoke and keeping that weight on.
 
AS OF THIS MORNING:

YES - JOINT RECIDENCY AND MATCH 39/58 = 67.24%
YES - JOINT RECIDENCY ONLY 2/58 3.79 %
YES - JOINT MATCH ONLY 14/58 24.38%
(IN REALITY = 91.62% if add to first option)
NO - NONE OF THE ABOVE 3/58 5.17%

YES - JOINT EXAMS (USMLEs) + OMM exam for DOs 35/42 83.33%
NO - KEEP EXAMS AS IS 7/42 16.67 %[/QUOTE]


PLEASE CONTINUE VOTING. ALSO SELECT 1 OPTION FOR FIRST 4 CHOICES & ONE FOR LAST 2. :thumbup:
 
More or less the same... keep voting
 
Luke- I hear ya but you're wrong. OMM is osteopathy. This is the difference we have to offer
If so many DO's don't use OMM (some 85%)...does that mean they are no longer DO's??...they have nothing to offer...i mean if OMM is osteopathy...
and if an allo doesn't perscribe antibiotics does that make him/her no longer an MD? Or what if, heaven forbid, an MD learns OMM...does that make them a DO?
I think being a DO is (1st) being a physician (2nd) a doc who is lucky enough to learn some great stuff in OMM...
 
Id be curious what the percentage of voters have taken the comlex. Im willing to bet that those that want it changed have taken the test, because they realize what a horrible test it is.
 
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Well that is an interesting Point... I have not written the test... The biggest problem I have/ or more correctly will have is having to write 3 test at the same time COMLEXs, USMLEs, + Canadian exams. So for all of you who think two is bad... imagine 3. I will have to take an extra year just to complete the exam forms.
 
Here is the website of a college in Toronto/ Vancouver for health care professionals to learn OMM, and get a DO (diploma in Osteopathy).
They do not teach anything related to Allo Med or US DO schools.. just OMM.

http://www.osteopathiecollege.com/

You have to be a health care provider to do this part time program over a few years (MD, RN, DC, Physio, etc...). They have been around for more then 10 years so there must be some demand. Dam them Canadians.

Some of the faculty also teach at US DO schools.
BA


jhug said:
If so many DO's don't use OMM (some 85%)...does that mean they are no longer DO's??...they have nothing to offer...i mean if OMM is osteopathy...
and if an allo doesn't perscribe antibiotics does that make him/her no longer an MD? Or what if, heaven forbid, an MD learns OMM...does that make them a DO?
I think being a DO is (1st) being a physician (2nd) a doc who is lucky enough to learn some great stuff in OMM...
 
jhug said:
If so many DO's don't use OMM (some 85%)...does that mean they are no longer DO's??...they have nothing to offer...i mean if OMM is osteopathy...
and if an allo doesn't perscribe antibiotics does that make him/her no longer an MD? Or what if, heaven forbid, an MD learns OMM...does that make them a DO?
I think being a DO is (1st) being a physician (2nd) a doc who is lucky enough to learn some great stuff in OMM...
I think we're agreeing here. Without OMM, the care given by a DO is identical to that rendered by any other physician. As DOs, OMM is the difference we offer.
 
AS OF THIS AFTERNOON:

YES - JOINT RECIDENCY AND MATCH 46/67 = 68.66%
YES - JOINT RECIDENCY ONLY 2/67 3.00 %
YES - JOINT MATCH ONLY 16/67 23.9%
(IN REALITY = 92.56% if add to first option)
NO - NONE OF THE ABOVE 3/67 4.48%

YES - JOINT EXAMS (USMLEs) + OMM exam for DOs 40/49 81.63%
NO - KEEP EXAMS AS IS 9/49 18.37 %[/QUOTE]


Keep VOTING. ALSO SELECT 1 OPTION FOR FIRST 4 CHOICES & ONE FOR LAST 2. :thumbup:[/QUOTE]
 
Bump
Keep voting.. we want to get to at least 150 (average entering class)
 
the more I think about it....the AOA is heading stright toward a merger at some point of the residencies. From watching the amount of new residencies opening versus the ones closing over the last few years....add in the fact they have more schools opening up...and you get a recipe for merging the programs.

It just make more sense to me. The trends are already starting to align that way.
 
AS OF THIS MORNING:

YES - JOINT RECIDENCY AND MATCH 50/72 = 69.44444 %
YES - JOINT RECIDENCY ONLY 2/72 2.77777%
YES - JOINT MATCH ONLY 17/72 23.611%
(IN REALITY = 93.055555% if add to first option)
NO - NONE OF THE ABOVE 3/72 4.58333333%

YES - JOINT EXAMS (USMLEs) + OMM exam for DOs 45/54 83.333333%
NO - KEEP EXAMS AS IS 9/54 16.777777 %

Pretty interesting data... 77 voters. It looks like Joint MATCH and Exams will be topic on interest for next few years. Make sure you select the right people to speak for you at AOA. Also it would be interesting for a survey of all DO students to be done.
 
We seem to be stuck at 77 people. Maybe that is all the DO students on this link..???
 
where getting there.. maybe just to 100 people and we can close the post.

BTW THIS IS MY 500th POST>.. yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh
 
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