SHOULD I DECLINE D.O. & RETRY M.D. NEXT YEAR? OR AM I JUST NUTS???

[tony]

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For heaven's sakes! I got my D.O. acceptances last week, and I was really excited! Now I can't believe I'm actually thinking about reapplying to MD schools. What am I--nuts?!!

Here's the story. I applied to MD schools last year. My numbers: GPA: 3.68, sci. GPA 3.63. MCATS: 8V 9B 10P and Q. Good clinical/research experience. I applied to a lot of schools so I thought I had a decent chance to get into one measly school. however...I didn't get one interview. (only one hold-for-interview for GW). The problem was, I applied to most of the schools like practically the last minute (i had to air-ex some to make sure I beat the deadline).

After getting absolutely no interviews, i became discouraged and applied only to D.O. schools this year, (thinking what chance I would have getting into a MD school this year?).

This year, I applied to my D.O. schools real early and I've been very successful with interviews & acceptances. Though I'm ecstatic and excited about a career as D.O., M.D. is honestly still my first choice. And I can't help thinking that if I had reapplied EARLY to MD schools this year, I might have had a good chance to get into one. I was actually considering maybe going ahead and attending D.O. school but at the same time reapply to MD schools during my first year.

I don't know. Are my numbers even good enough to get into MD schools? And even if they are, should I even be thinking about this (considering things may totally backfire on me)?

What do you think?


[This message has been edited by tony (edited 12-27-1999).]

 

[Vegeta]

Great question, Tony. I'm in a similar position with the exact same MCAT score that you got and a 3.67 GPA. I applied to 16 MD schools and I haven't heard from most of them yet (including my state schools), but I've already been granted an interview to the one Osteopathic school that I applied to and I'm honestly enthusiastic about attending the osteopathic school next autumn if I'm accepted. I'm interested in others' opinions about what they believe to be the appropriate thing to do once granted an acceptance to a D.O. school while uncertain about whether an MD degree would be better suited for the particular applicant (ones that have borderline scores for MD schools as above). I believe that there are those people that strive towards the title of "physician" and fail to distinguish between either of the two aforementioned degrees. These people simply settle for where the admissions committees position them in the heirarchy of GPA's and MCAT's (with DO schools generally having slightly lower admissions statistics than MD numbers). For Tony (and myself), I think that determination might lead to a higher MCAT score if the exam were to be retaken with the intention of working towards entering an MD school, but the dilemma lies within our appreciation of Osteopathic physicians and techniques--which need to outweigh the standard MD degree earned by recognized physicians.

 

[new_med]

Hello,

Thanks for bringing up this question. Tony, is it really possible to apply for an MD school while being a 1st year student in a DO school? I've never heard about this, but would like to know. And if this is so, most likely the chances to get into an MD school will be even lower. I think they look for determination in applicants. I am in the same situation as you are, so I would like to discuss it.

 

[Mayqswet]

My advice to Tony is to go with your heart. If you really think that you'll always regret not reapplying to MD schools, you should strongly consider reapplying. However, if it's not a huge deal, and you just want to become a physician, go DO and don't look back.

Who you are and what you do will have a much bigger influence than the letters after your name. Plus, if you reapply next year and still don't get into an MD school, you might have a tough time explaining to DO schools why you turned down acceptances last year. There are only so many acceptance slots and adcoms want to judiciously hand them out to people who are serious about going to school there.

Good luck


------------------
Phillip Snider, MS, RD
UNECOM '04
Happiness isn't having what you want, it is wanting what you have.



[This message has been edited by Mayqswet (edited 12-30-1999).]

 

[UHS2002]

It is my understanding that it is almost impossible to apply to and be accepted to an MD school while attending a DO program, or vice versa. Why?! The reason I was given makes perfect sense: the admission committees of both kind of schools regard each other as equivalent, so they don't look favorably on someone who is using their own school as a backup to be accepted into a similar program.

Under circumstances of extreme hardship, there are some DO to MD transfers allowed, and they occur because a student usually needs to relocate to an area where there is an MD school only.

Having said all this, let me address Tony's dilemma by saying: please, please, please, don't go DO if you are set on being an MD, particularly if you feel that the only reason you didn't get accepted into an MD school is because you didn't apply this year!!! With this start point you may end up unhappy with your education and future career. Waiting out another year is not that long in the context of the next 30-40 years of education and medical practice you have ahead of you.

You got several acceptances at DO schools already and there are several MD schools who accept applicants with similar numbers (and a few who accept applicants with lower numbers than most DO schools) so wait out a year and re-apply early to the MD schools, picking the ones who have traditionally accepted applicants with stats similar to yours. If, by some freak accident, you should not get in, you can always go to an offshore school for a couple of years and then come back. You wouldn't even have to loose a year as several offshore schools have 2 classes starting in the same year.

I know a person who applied to the same MD school 4 years in a row before he got accepted. Now he is a MS2 there and very happy. He could have been graduating from the DO school he was accepted at if he hadn't decided to pass it up and keep trying for the school of his dreams. But isn't it better to be a happy MS2 than an unhappy DO?!

 

[dlc]

Hi Tony,
I am so glad that somebody else is going through the exact same dilemma as I am. This was my second year applying to medical school. Last year, I only applied MD and only got one interview, in April. I hoped that maybe if I applied earlier I would have a better shot, even though in the end, my low MCAT score of 25R would probably keep me out. Nonetheless, with my 3.8 gpa (3.7 science) I hoped the score would be less of an issue. I applied MD and DO. I had my first interview in September at an MD school, my alma mater, and got waitlisted. Then I interviewed in November for a DO school and got accepted. I really did not know much about osteopathy until this year and really became inspired after reading up on it, especially "The DO's" by Norman Gevitz. At the same time that I got accepted, I also got offered a nice research job at a really good medical school, one that required two years of my time. I really wanted this job because it would give me great experience in research and open up new doors in the medical field. But I didn't want to give up the DO acceptance for fear that I would never get an acceptance again. I weighed out all of the pros and cons and talked to some close friends and family for advice and finally decided that I was not 100% committed to osteopathy and, just like you, I might regret not having tried again. I have wanted to be a doctor for as long as I can remember but osteopathy was not where I saw myself. I tried to imagine where I would be happiest and it was with the job. I figured, if I really am not committed to being a DO, I am going to be unhappy for many years! It was a really confusing time, though, because I was also concerned with how people would view me as a DO. I know that they are considered equivalent to MDs but I would keep reading that it is much better to go MD. Of course, then I would find other evidence of how good a DO degree can be, especially when getting a residency. But, in the end, I felt that I had way too many doubts to go full force into osteopathy. So, I don't think you are nuts for considering reapplying to get into an MD school. Of course, I may be nuts because I am taking this low-paying job in a huge city over achieving my dream! Plus, I am taking that MCAT again, not even knowing if I can do any better, but just hoping! Anyway, I hope my story helps and I hope I did not ramble!
Dana

 

[Smile]

let me just say that while i know this exists much more than i would like to imagine, it is absurd to read over and over again about those students who are going to DO schools as backups to MD schools. if you have even the slightest of doubts about osteopathy, why did you even apply there in the first place? it would be a travesty if you went to a DO school half-heartedly, cause you would likely be depriving another student who didn't make it in but really wanted to become a DO. the last thing this profession needs is more "MD wannabees" (as i've heard the term used previously).

i praise you DLC for choosing not to go to DO school when you realized it was not in your heart to do so.

if you really want to become an MD, then by all means apply MD only. osteopathic medicine isn't just another route to becoming a physician, it is a different philosophy of patient treatment altogether. if you don't agree w/ its approaches to patient care, then you will be miserable when you start seeing real patients in rotations/residencies etc.

do yourself and everyone else a favor by going for what you really want and not infringing upon other innocent student's desires of going to DO school, by half-heartedly going to DO school.

 

[turtleboard]

If MD is your first choice and you're stuck between going to a DO school or applying again to MD school, then go ahead and apply to MD school.

BUT if you are going to do that, you've got to know that without beefing up your MCATs and doing something significantly different with your next set of applications, it's likely your efforts will be for naught.

Osteopathic medicine to me is strictly a different philosophy of practice, as others have stated, but I also view it as another way to becoming a physician. It's difficult for many in the osteopathic world to believe this, but there are students out there who just want to be physicians, whether that be MD or DO.

A note to Mr. Snider who's waiting on MD acceptances: I don't think it's possible to do a "dual-accredited" residency. At hospitals which sponsor both MD and DO residencies, the programs are usually separate, with little interaction between the two (essentially two faculty, two programs, two sets of residents). As an MD you would never be certified by the AOA as being qualified in OMT I believe. That doesn't stop you from using it occasionally, however.


Tim of New York City.

 

[tony]

Thanks for the input & opinions. I feel a little better reading about others are going thru the same dilemma. I also expected to get the criticism I've been getting for having second thoughts about becoming a D.O.
However, i don't think i'm "depriving" people who want to be D.O.s. if I think this. I strongly feel I want to be a physician as much, if not more, than any other med applicant. And I don't think someone is wrong or somehow immoral just because he/she chooses MD above of DO. Just because a nurse or P.A. thinks about trying to become a doctor, should he or she give up the position simply because there are others who want to be a nurse or P.A.? Of course not! that would be absurd.
I respect DOs like I respect MDs and I am no way implying that MDs are better. However I, as many DOs and MDs, admit that there is a lack of recognition of what osteopathy is all about. If simply explaining to patients what it is would solve the problem, then there wouldn't be a problem. But the truth is, especially in a state such as California, osteopathic is still far behind the times in terms of DO acceptance. When people look at the physician directory, they look for MDs because they know what it is and because they think DOs just fix bones or something. Many HMOs and medical clinics still give priority to MDs because allopatric med has been around longer( DOs have told me this). I don't think its bad to think about my financial and occupational future.

And I think there are MANY (but not all) other DO applicants who feel the way I do. In college, i looked to have a good time-- play sports, join clubs, date, as well as study. Unfortunately I didn't study every Friday night like some of my others friends did who are applying to and getting into MD schools. That hurt my scores & maybe my chance of becoming a MD. And I have to admit that I don't have the ability like some of my other friends who can "absorb" their lecture material, never have to study, party a lot and still ace college. Nevertheless, I wouldn't have changed anything I did in college. I learned AND had fun.

Now does that say i wouldn't be committed to becoming a doctor or a DO, or be a good doctor? Heck no! If i go to a DO school, I know I'll study my butt off and become an excellent doctor. However, I want to BE A DOCTOR FIRST. The degree comes second. DOs and MDs are both doctors with the SAME goals--curing the ill,etc (it's just that they may have slightly different ways of achieving the same goals). And so just because I think that I would be in a better position in terms of job availability/financial situation if I chose MD, it doesn't mean that I have no right studying to be a DO.

 

[drusso]

If you have your heart set on being a MD, then you should apply again to MD schools. In the long run, that is what will make you happy and that is what life is all about. I know people who accepted DO only because they didn't get into an MD school and they always strike me as kind of miserable, depressed, and unfulfilled people. They're not really into OMT, they're hypersensitive about "being accepted" by other docs, patients, family, and they have very little to do with school/professional activities. I think that most, in candid moments, will tell you that if they had it to do over again, they should have reapplied and gone MD. Being "different" is not for everyone...

And, DO's are different by virtue of their minority status in medicine, lack of widespread recognition, emphasis on primary care medicine, and training in OMM. It's likely that public recognition of DO's will increase over the next few decades, but I doubt that "osteopathic medicine" will become a standard household phrase. Many premeds are seeking that kind of attention and brandname recognition. Those kinds of premeds will be frustrated in osteopathic medicine.

Be that as it may, now that I'm in the clinics and hospitals and working with MD and DO attendings, I can tell you that patients, nurses, residents and attendings simply don't care what your degree is or whether you're an MD or DO student. Patients want someone competent, kind, and knowledgeable, nurses want someone with signature authority to sign charts and write orders, and residents and attendings want students who can do a good physical and present a case in a reasonably coherent manner. DO's navigate their way through the world of medicine with little or no difficulty.

So, go to a DO school because 1) you're sincerely interested in osteopathic principles and practice or 2) you simply want to be a good doc and the brand of medicine matter less to you than the overall quality of training given the cards you hold. Don't go to a DO school because you didn't get into a MD school. You'll be miserable and those around you will find you to be a burden.


------------------
David Russo, MS3
UNTHSC/TCOM
Research Fellow, Department of Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine



[This message has been edited by drusso (edited 12-28-1999).]

 

[Medic1895]

Greetings.

There are dual certified programs. One is the Emergency Medicine residency at Einstein in Philly. It is affiliated with both PCOM and Temple and is a 4 year program.

I was in a similar situation as I was accepted to both DO and MD schools. I finally based my decision on the best school, best education and best area for my family. I ended up choosing to go to PCOM, which is an excellent school. You also need to weigh what you may want to specialize in. If you want to be a neurosurgeon, you need to realize that the number of residencies may be limited. As a DO you can go to an allopathic residency, but for 5 states, including PA, you must do an internship year.

 

[turtleboard]

There's no doubt that there exists residency programs which are accredited by both ACGME and AOA, but if you're an MD in that EM program at Temple, you're not going to be recognized by the AOA as having completed an osteopathic residency and vice versa.


Tim of New York City.

[This message has been edited by turtleboard (edited 12-29-1999).]

 

[aecuenca]

After reading your second post, I felt the need to comment on your situation.

You want to "BE A DOCTOR FIRST". Hmm..if you truly wanted to be a doctor first, and you thought that both MD and DO degrees are equivalent, then WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL? Oh wait, it's that recognition thing, right? DO's aren't recognized as much as MD's and that bothers you, despite the fact that you know that both are equal. When you become a DO, you will no doubt have to explain what that degree means, and if you are hesitant about that, then you should decline your acceptances. You should ask yourself "Do I feel that OMT is valid and useful? Or is it Bull****?" Some people think so, and it is these DO students who shouldn't be in DO schools. Why learn something that you are not open to utilizing in your career? Should you go to DO school, you will always ask yourself "Could I have become an MD?" and you may regret it for the rest of your life. Though you write that MD degrees or not better than DO, I find that hard to believe. It is evidently clear that you place MD degrees higher over DO not simply because of "better possibility in terms of job availiblity/financial situation", but because of the prestige that comes along with having an MD degree.

I do have a question....why haven't you re-taken your MCAT? You talk about how you did all of these things in college and it hurt your academic performance. Im sorry, but to me, it sounds like a bunch of excuses. Now if you said that you experienced a death in the family, or you were working 40 hours/week to pay for your school and housing, or doing something extraordinary, then I would sympathize. Not to say that your gpa isn't impressive because it is. But you should have known that when you applied to MD schools that your MCAT score wouldn't be very competitive.

And your comment about beter position in terms of job availibility/financial situation. A great physician isn't based on what kind of degree he or she holds. It is based on the individual's performance in medical practice with that degree. If you perform well in school, do great on your boards, and demonstrate superior skills on your rotations, I am confident that your concerns (if you choose to become a DO) will be irrelevant.

My advice: take the time to evaluate your reasons for going to medical school. Why would you go to a DO school? Do you believe in the philosophy and the OMT? Is it the prestige that comes along with the MD degree? Do I want to spend most of my life explaining to the layperson what DO means?

Once you've answered these (and I'm sure many others you have for yourself) you will come to a logical and satisfying decision.

I wish the best of luck to you.

Arnold
Western U/COMP Class of 2004

 

[docflanny]

I wholeheartedly agree with drusso and aecuenca's comments. This discussion seems like a high school discussion of the kid that has low self-esteem deciding whether or not he/she should buy newer closes and act differently to be accepted by the "cool group". Essentially this is what the argument is if you agree that DO schools are equally prepared at educating medical students as MD schools are. It all comes down to prestige and recognition.

A DO education will be different than an allopathic education. OMT, in my mind, will be an awesome asset to have...just another treatment method to offer my patients. Considering the fact that the majority of the population in the U.S. will be significantly older by the time we get graduate from med school, having the ability to treat musculoskeletal injuries manually will probably become quite popular. Additionally, having a non-pharmacologic treatment to offer elderly (or any age group) will be desirable since they are often over medicated.

Tony: you'll be able to become an awesome doctor if you work hard at it DO or MD. Decide which profession appeals most to you in regard to its philosophy, remove, all this bull **** about professional recognition and HMO preferences (I believe HMO prefer some D.O.s because their treatment costs are less ie. manipulative therapy v. years of pharmaceuticals) because this isn't the heart of medicine. Bring medicine down to it's most elemental level and decide what type of physician you want to become and go for it wholeheartedly.

If you decide passing on your DO acceptances please know that most MD schools view the MCAT as the gold seal. Unless you boost your MCAT scores or represent a demographic minority your chances of being accepted at an allopathic school won't improve. I was in your situation the last few years. I graduated from college with a 3.75 GPA with a major in BIO and Spanish and a minor in chem in four years. I was very well-rounded, had been working in a hospital for over a year, had many leadership and volunteer roles in my community, and had won many awards for my dedication to leadership and community service. Despite these qualifications my MCAT never rose past a 27R. Nevertheless, I thought my chances of being accepted at an allopathic school would be average to better. Not so. This year I began looking into Osteopathic Medicine, not as a back up, but because I was newly introduced to it, not having previous experience with it.

I have been very happy with my interactions with osteopathic schools this far. It's an amazing feeling to have someone value you for all your potential to medicine and not just for your scores. Consider if this is important to you...can you be apart of the not-so-cool group and be happier or would you rather strive harder and harder to prove that you should be in the "cooler group". When it comes down to it I hope you choose the better fit.

Sorry to oversimplify your situation, but it seems to be a question of prestige, nothing more.

------------------
Matt Flannigan
MSU Class of 2004

 

[docflanny]

small typo...clothes not closes, my siblings were bothering me when I wrote the post above.

 

[Gregory Gulick]

I wanted to comment on a few statements made in this thread.

First and foremost, I agree with everyone here who has stated that you should not pursue the DO degree if you are even considering the possibility of passing up the acceptance. But I will say this, if the MD schools learn that you passed up an acceptance at a DO school, expect trouble. The former admissions director from the University of Florida College of Medicine, while speaking at a state-wide premedical conference, said something to the effect that if they see that an applicant doesn't apply to DO schools, they will want to know why. He continued to say that if an applicant truly wants to be a physician and passes up a completely viable option (i.e., DO schools), then this speaks volumes of their true intentions. So if you actually pass up an acceptance, expect serious problems if the MD school ever finds out.

Earlier, someone stated that patients, when looking for a doctor, look for MDs. They gave the example of looking up MD in the phonebook, rather than DO. Let's face it, gang, this is NOT how patients generally look for their doctors. They look for their doctors by looking at a list of approved providers published by their insurance company. Patients also look for their doctors by asking friends and family for referrals. So having an unrecognized degree doesn't affect your practice to the extent that some of you think it does.

I've been using DOs for years and I now work with a DO in my medical school preceptorship. This doctor is bringing in another doctor for the purpose of seeing new patients. Basically, he has too many patients and will begin refusing new patients in a month or so! I have never seen a starving DO -- quite the opposite, actually. I've often wished my personal physicians, all DOs, were less busy so I wouldn't have to wait so damn long.

One other point I would like to make is that I have seen about 100 patients thus far in my short medical school career and I have yet to have any patient ask, "What's a DO?" Why? Because they truly don't care. If they ever mention anything, it is usually in the form of "Oh thank God you fixed my neck! Where did you learn that?" or something to that extent. Frankly, I'd love for more patients to ask about my training. I'm quite proud of my profession and am more than happy to explain it to anyone that will listen. Besides, I fully intend to use my "difference" to my advantage (clinically and financially). And I do believe that my training gives me a significant advantage.

Good luck to you guys. I do hope that neither of you will become a DO if your heart isn't in it. If you aren't dedicated to studying osteopathic medicine, then I promise you that adding OMT training on top of the standard, already-overwhelming medical curriculum will frustrate you to no end.

Gregory

[This message has been edited by Gregory Gulick (edited 12-31-1999).]

 

[OsteoDOC]

I do find discussions on these age old topic interesting. Most interesting is when people "hear" the way things are and are then experts. I tend to look at individuals who have "experienced" first hand. Greg Gulick has made some very fine points in his post. Now, I will add my "experience".

First, I am a D.O. in the state that once outlawed them (that is in California for those who don't know the history). Second, I am a resident in an ACGME Family Practice Program through UCSF. Now that I have said that, let me tell you what I have seen.

Being a D.O. has NOT been any problem whatsoever. Yes, I do occasionally get that dreaded question "what is a D.O." but it is not that big of a deal. Basically, if you are a good physician or in my case a good resident, no one cares. I happen to be one of only two D.O.'s in the residency program (there are 39 of us) and my education has never been questioned. Actually, I have had many people inquire about the philosophy and manipulation training.

Now, as to the question posed initially. If, for ANY reason, you have a problem with "D.O." after your name, then DO NOT go to an osteopathic medical school. You will be very unhappy. I always do find it interesting when people say, "I just want to be a physician" yet have problems with the D.O. at the end of your name. So what most people are really saying is that they want to be a physician with that "M.D." at the end of their name so that EVERYONE knows who they are.

Greg also made a very valid point. Most people do not choose their physician by looking at the "M.D." section of the yellow pages. Most look at the list of providers for their insurance plan or they go by word of mouth. As Greg has already eluded to, many D.O.'s are very busy. Why? Because they are good physicians who happen to be D.O.'s.

So, decide for yourself about which medical school YOU would be most happy with. This is something that you will have to live with for the rest of your life. So be wise, decide for yourself.

Brandon Atkinson, D.O.

 

[ana]

Tony,
Yes, go, go, go to this DO and become a physician!

I will apologize in advance to all those who are telling you not to go to a DO school if you have doubts (I noticed that there are several here, many of them DOs themselves and long time members I respect, who have given this advice. Sorry folks, but I think this is very bad advice. We often are ambivilant about things we are not very knowledgeable about. I think once Tony got indoctrinated into the osteopathic philosophy, he could become a very fine and enthusiastic DO indeed. Frankly, I had doubts myself about going to medical school at all -- I am now in my third year and having a great time. Tony, going to med school (whether allopathic or osteopathic) is a like getting a new haircut -- you won't know if you like it or not until it's too late to change your mind. However, if you find that you do not like being a DO, the chances are that you would have hated being an MD too (in other words, you simply hate being a doctor).

Yes, Tony, there are people who are in DO school who are miserable and are probably grumbling they should have been MDs instead. My belief is that they would have been just as unhappy at an allopathic institution, the DO schtick is just an excuse.

If you do decide to reapply, you will have a great deal of difficulty explaining your declining an acceptance at a DO school to an MD school. The best way to deal with it, quite frankly, is to not mention it. I doubt very much that you will be asked anyway.

Also, you could try to get a deferrment. You will have to come up with a compelling reason which must be genuine. It doesn't mean you have to tell the DO schools you intend to apply to allopathic schools, but you need to come up with a reasonable explanation that is also true by coincidence.

However, if I were you, I would just count my blessings I got into a med school and go into it with full throttle enthusiasm.

However, you are not me and need to make up our own mind. Whatever you decide, good luck to you!

[This message has been edited by ana (edited 01-02-2000).]

 

[OldManDave]

Tony,

My first word of advice would be to not rush your decision. Read-up on what "DO" is all about...before you toss an admission off. Yes, I may be a bit biased as a DO student; but before I put the effort into learning about DO programs, I felt just as you do.

However, don't force yourself into a profession that does not fit you!

Lastly, I must chastise you for applying to programs that you do not know enough about or are sufficiently comfortable to enter.

Whatever the case, please take your time and research before you make a decision...I wish you the best of luck and success in your decision!

------------------
'Old Man Dave'
KCOM, Class of '03

Nothing Risked, Nothing Gained!!

 

[reed0104]

Hey Tony,
I recently was a pre-med and did a lot of reaserch on the D.O. question. I talked with about 10 D.O.s and 13 M.D.s about the prestige and treatment of D.O.s in the medical field. They all said the same thing verbatim, "It dosen't matter, nobody cares if you are a M.D. or D.O."

Forget the OMM, philosophy, etc... other than the actual OMM treatments, there IS NO WAY to tell a M.D. apart from a D.O. without it being on their name tag. They are all just doctors, just former med students, former pre-meds, just individuals with their own personalities etc.. Your personality and work ethic will determine what kind of physician you will be, not your school or your school's philosophy.

Just go to school and be thankful, many good people don't get an oppurtunity like yours.

Beat of luck,

Bryan (KCOM or U of D.M. 2004)

 

[reed0104]

I meant Best of luck, "Beat of luck" Sounds like a bad irsh folk song.

TAKE CARE,

Bryan

 

[tony]

When I said I placed becoming a doctor first, and the degree second. I was not being contradictory. My point was that my goal was NOT simply "MD or bust!". If an MD degree wasn't obtainable, I would still desire to be a physian.
Also, those of you who said that people don't look for MDs in HMO physician provider directories are wrong! How do you know they don't? I, in fact, do know that many (not all) do. I've worked at 2 different companies (w/ insurance plans) where I've heard and seen co-workers wondering what a DO was while looking at the provider directories, and purposely choosing an MD. And no, this was not merely 1-2 people, but a lot. They're not sure what a DO is, and so they play it safe.
Anywayz. My main reason for this reply is to say thanks. All of your comments, whether supporting OR critical, have all been very useful and insightful for me, and probably for many others. I truly respect those of you who speak your minds with passion.
FYI, I've thought long and hard and I think I will go ahead and attend a DO school. It is clear that in attending a DO school, I will be obtain the same base of knowledge as in an MD school, only more. Though there are undoubtedly many challenges that I, along with other fellow DOs, will face, I think it will be all worth it. What's life w/out its challenges? And what's the MAIN point of becoming a doctor (DO or MD) anyways? It is to have the knowledge and power to help others and to feel good about it.
C-ya.

 

[Hanly Burton]

With every passing day, more and more people learn that DO and MD are equivalent degrees. I know several people who would rather go to a DO than an MD. The one family pracitice DO in my town is a commodity as many patients seek him for those initials and many MDs refer patients to him. You would be nuts to decline a DO acceptance and retry MD next year.
Hanly

 

[Where2B]

I agree that D.O. is not much of a stigma anymore. I was reading some medical news when I stumbled upon the president of the American association of anesthesiologist who is a D.O. (Dr. Mackenzie). The real issue today of whether to choose a D.O. school over M.D. schools is the tuition. Most of the osteopathic schools charge on average 25k+ a year for tuition. When you calculate living expenses and all, it adds up to about 45k in loans per year. Then during residency, deferment and loan interest adds up to a grand total of somewhere in the neighborhood of 180k++ worth of debt. When you look at a public in-state allopathic school, the average debt for the combined FOUR years is only 65k. Why is it so much more expensive? Are D.O. professors getting paid more or what?

[This message has been edited by Where2B (edited 01-04-2000).]

 

[Pebbles]

The reason the osteo school are more expensive is because they are privately owned where the allo is state owned. That is what I have been told. Just my .02.

 

[Mayqswet]

I second Pebbles remark about the cost, but would like to add one more reason.

It is true that most DO schools are private and they charge more. In fact, I live in NC and know that Wake Forest charges 28.5K, Duke charges 30.5K while the state supported ones (UNC and ECU) only charge 3K for in state residents.

But you also have to remember that there are only 19 schools and both California and Missouri have 2 schools. That means that people from 33 states will be out of state applicants which drives up the cost for those applying to the state supported schools.

To get an idea of the potential difference, check out MSUCOM's in state vs out of state tuition - it's shocking! Also, for UNC, the out of state tuition is nearly 20K more expensive at 22.5K. If we had more state supported DO schools, the price would definitely be cheaper.

Overall, however, we must realize that medical school is expensive across the board. The average tuition for a private medical school is 26.4K and the average tuition for a state supported school is around 9K.


------------------
Phillip Snider, MS, RD
UNECOM '04
Happiness isn't having what you want, it is wanting what you have.



[This message has been edited by Mayqswet (edited 01-05-2000).]

 

[DOPhD student]

By all means, Tony, reapply to MD schools next year. No point in feeling miserable the rest of your life. Quick comments to people who say that there's no stigma for being DOs: if there's no stigma, then why do you keep having to defend your education to outsiders? The reason that you still SOMETIMES have to defend the value of your education is because there is SOMETIMES stigma attached to your degree. Quick comments to those people who sincerely enjoy being DOs: it's really not necessary to use MDs as the yardstick in this day and age to justify yourself. Stop saying DOs can do things MDs can do. I feel just saying "DOs manipulate, prescribe, counsel, and perform surgeries" suffices. Afterall, you don't see MDs using DOs as a measuring stick even though DOs are more educated than MDs and can offer additional services (no offense, just stating the facts). Everyone should do what he loves and know who he is.

 

[Matthew T Perry]

I have to 2nd Hanly Burton's remark. Being a doctor, DO or MD, is not about who can impress who with their initials. It's about accomplishing the goal of being allowed to study and work in one of the most challenging and rewarding professions there is. I don't know your true motivation for applying to medical school, but if it is to be the best doctor you can be, you will beyond a shadow of a doubt be an idiot for turning down any medical school you get accepted to based on a premature assumption of what might be. Think long and hard on this and really search your true intentions. A year ago I was in a similar situation as you are. I am now a first year medical student, instead of a second-year re-applicant (or worse, second year ?wanna-be?). Your choice, if you gamble poorly, might not be between "D.O." and "M.D." after your name, but rather "Mr." or "Dr." before it. Best of luck to you either way.

 

[Pebbles]

Something I would like to add about DO/MD.

DO treats the whole self. Meaning they will use extra measures before going to medications. Example: back pain, DO's may try alignment first, before pain killers. One thing though...DO's can go on to specialize.

MD's are more zeroed in on the problem area. Focusing on their specialty.

Please reguard none of this is meant in a bad way, for I am neither an MD or a DO.

Some other side notes. I live in Des Moines and actually a MD started the DO program in my area. His reason was "the whole self" aspect.

So, the bottom line is if you like the "whole self" aspect. (not really but in a nutshell)

 

[TQL]

I am in the similiar situation and I have a doubt about attending DO school too. I am applying for both MD and DO schools, but only have interviews at DO schools and got accepted. A little bit about myself: I attended an allopathic school in a foreign country before moving here with my family. I changed my major to engineering and did very well in undergrad school. I have been working for a few years now, but I decided that medicine is what I want to do. I applied last year and got into the wait-list at couple MD schools, but no acceptance. I re-apply this year and got accepted into a DO school. My stats are not very impressive (3.76GPA, 24MCAT). I doubt that I will get in MD school this year, but I'm not sure if DO what I want to do. The more information I get from DO interviews, the more I doubt about that. I know too much about allopathic medicine and I'd like to specialize on cardio-vascular surgery. I think I may be able to do it after DO training but the opportunity seems to be very slim. I don't want to make mistake in choosing the right training for me, but I don't want to pass the opportunity to do medicine because it may be the only opportunity I have. I spent too much time thinking about this and found no answer. I think I need some suggestions from all of you, please feel free to tell me what you think about my situation.

 

[Sheon]

Judging from your post I would guess that you are unclear as to the true distinction between DOs and MDs. There is no shame in that, most applicants are unclear. However, if you are that focused on being something as specific as what you are pointing out, I would guess that the DO route is not for you.

While the DO education is every bit as good, and in MANY cases better than the MD education, its competitiveness for residencies (specifically when they are for very competitive and specialized fields like cardiovascular surgery) is a definate player.

Consider this likely senerio, you take the DO slot, you go to school and do average (like most people do), and you apply for the competitive residency. You don't get it! It is likely that you will question whether you would've gotten it if you had gone to an MD school. Will you not resent your choice of physician training (and perhaps the entire DO profession)?

Honestly, you really should not have applied to any school that didn't give you a good shot at getting where you wanted to be (meaning a school sponsors a cardiovascular surgery residency), unless you were willing to bend on that dream.

I suggest you reexamine why you want to go to a US medical school. If your answer is to be a US physician, go DO. If your answer is to be a cardiovascular surgeon, reapply.

 

[jm]

This is a typical problem with students applying to medical. The problem actually extends beyond students and into the community in general. Many people don't understand the osteopathic philosphy, they don't understand the true nature of what a DO does that is unique from an MD and it creates the opinion that DO is the way to go as a backup plan for medicine. This is quite understandable and eventually this problem will be solved with the growing population of Osteopathic Doctors in the US. Those who are classifying DO as a backup plan, why are you doing so? Do you feel that you will not receive adequate residencies, or that you simply do not want to learn OMT (don't believe in its value)? I started Osteopathic medical school with very little knowledge of the osteopathic philosophy and what it entails, but throughout my education I have come to realize the true purpose of Osteopathy and now I would not go back to MD for anything. Any person entering the medical profession should do so in order to become the most prepared physician to treat their patients with all available ability. The osteopathic philosophy puts its personel far above and beyond those of other philosophies. Anyone that denies the role of the nervous system in controling nearly any portion of the body in normal function or disease is simply ludicrous. The nervous sytem is involved in everything that occurs in your body, if you don't know this you will soon learn it. By using OMT you can stimulate with pressure various areas of the nervous system in ways to either excite the nerve or to slow the nervous activity, but he ultimate goal is for that neural input to normalize within a few hours after treatment. If you have never had it done, let me tell you it works! If you still doubt OMT look up articles that describe osteopathic techniques in research settings. You will find that in most cases OMT results equal those of allopathic methods, but OMT uses less drugs, less money and less therapy. Osteopaths do not want to eliminate allopathic methods because they do work. We want to join them with osteopathic methods in order to provide optimal treatment. A few good names to look up for research are Albert Kelso, Jamie Lipton and Thomas Steele. There are of course many others, but these some that come to mind. As far as residencies go, specialties are difficult no matter whether you are a DO or an MD. That is a given. If you have good records, good grades and present yourself well in your rotations there will not be a difference when it comes to residency training. There are DO's in every type of medicine, the greastest areas are primary care fields simply due to the fact that that is where OMT is most easily practiced. Another interesting side not is to look at the publications printed in the New England Journal of Medicine on the Osteopathic profession. The popularity is growing, in fact it is the fastest growing medical profession in the world!

 

[TQL]

Thanks Sheon and JM for the responses. Telling the truth, I didn't apply to DO school as back up. I read some books about DO and I like their philosophy. My PCP is a DO and I talked to here about Osteopathic Medicine a lot and she basically told me that the opportunity is unlimited for DO and you can specialize on anything you wish. I don't care about the letter after my name, but I'd like to be able to get into the program that allows me to be a surgeon. After a few interviews at DO schools, I found out that the chance to specialize on cardio-vascular surgery is almost none and that's why I concerned a lot. I want to make the right choice because I'm older than most applicants. It's not fair for other people if I just hold the seat for my security, I know someone out there would love to have it. But my ultimate goal is to be a physician and I'm really confused right now. I think I'm going nut for thinking too much about this!!!!!!

 

[Future DOc]

Gosh, when are we ever gonna learn.....DO or MD-A DOCTOR IS A DOCTOR IS A DOCTOR IS A DOCTOR. How is that NOT clear to a lot of you?

TQL, If you want to become a cardiothoracic surgeon, GO FOR IT!! But just realize that its NOT what's behind your name thats prevented you from accomplishing that goal. IT ALL DEPENDS ON YOU AS A PERSON!!! If you decide to go DO & didn't get into cardio-surgery, as a med student I will question other things (where you applied, grades, board scores, etc..) NOT your degree.

Eventough you have the "MD" behind your name, if YOU don't prove it to your collegues that you have what it takes to obtain a cardio-surgery residency slot, YOU WILL NOT GET IT!!!!

Remember that there are DOs beating out MDs for cardio-surgery slots-thats a fact more so with IMGs as well. WHY? Frankly, residency directors want the BEST PERSON for the slot. Also, your chances of getting a cardio-surgery slot maybe even better as a DO because you can go into both AOA & AMA residencies.....MDs can't.

Whatever path you choose (MD or DO), if you don't work your butt-off & prove it to your medical collegues, THATS THE ONLY REASON FOR NOT GETTING INTO A CARDIO-SURGERY RESIDENCY SLOT....Not your degree.

Rob
WEsternU/COMP

 

[PB DO]

An osteopathic medical degree is pretty much viewed as equivalent to the medical degree by most, if not all healthcare settings; I am sure you probably know that. There are numerous dually-accredited residency programs throughout the country, and more on the way. Osteopathic medical education offers additional training, not received by traditional medical schools. If the degree letters after your name are an issue (and I am not minimizing the fact that it may be), then give it another go for MD-granting institutions. But, feel confident that if you attend an osteopathic college, you will receive an equal, and probably better education than not. But please, understand your commitment to having and being proud of having a different degree. I am sure I speak for most when I say that it is quite annoying (and sad) to hear someone whining about their degree. Good luck

 

[Where2B]

To TQL,

Why do you say that after interviewing at several DO's schools you conclude that it will be slim for you to go into cardiovasc-surgery? What sort of evidence or things have you heard?

 

[TQL]

I am sorry if I confused you guys about my question. I understand the osteopathic philosophy and respect DOs a lot. I am not whinning about the degree, it's just the letter. I would be proud to be either DO or MD. My main concern is the opportunity for residency and practice. At schools where I was interviewed, interviewers (both basic science and clinical professors) told me that I should seriously think about going to DO schools if I'd like to be a cardio-vascular surgeon. They gave me some statistics about DO graduates (from their schools) who specialized on surgery (less than 2%) and cardio-vascular surgery (almost none). They also mentioned that the rotations and programs at Osteopathic schools focus on primary care, not on specialties. They said the opportunity is there, but the chance may be very slim or almost zero. I researched the osteopathic medicine a lot and I know that DO can specialize on any aspect of medicine, but the information from my interviews really confused me. I hope you guys don't think of my question as a arrogant attitude or I am whinning about the degree because I just want to get someone else's ideas about my situation. Good luck to you all.

 

[bri1856]

Nuts!

 

[Where2B]

To TQL,

Could the source of your info. be talking about just Osteopathic residencies not Allopathic residencies? I imagine if people from DO's school elope down the road to allopathic training then there shouldn't be any problem right? Choosing a specific area of training is the choice of the student and the Match result, right? Since cardiovascular-surg. is very competitive and limited in slots not even all the M.D's who want it can have it, right? It's a number game. Maybe chances for cardiovasc-surg is slim, but I imagine other specialties are possible since there are plenty available. The majority of M.D's are doing IM residency every year then specialize in something of from there. I don't see why D.O's should have any problem.

That 2% you've mentioned also seemed very low, and I'd like to find out the truth whenever possible. There are approx. 16k+ US MD and 2500 DO every year, a two percent of DO would be equal to 25 DOs matching into specialities, and that seems odd. Or do you mean just cardiovasc-surg? Can you tell me which school you interviewed at? I've heard from around this forum that 30% of NYCOM students went into specialties last year, that would equal to about 60 students (??). So that's more than 2% right there. Remember that matching also depends on your USMLE score too. It's a number game. I think maybe the fact that less DO's matched into those specialities is for that reason (low USMLE score). If you score high, you will have a better chance, right?

Anyone has any insight, please comment so we can get to the bottom of this, thanks.

 

[Future DOc]

You guys are WAY OFF again!!! I don't mean to be critical, but you have to check your fact sheet one more time.

The reason a lot of DOs are not seen in those "so-called" other specialities is because a) most people who attend DO schools are primary-oriented from the beginning-OMT fits nicely in those fields & b)there are way too much more MDs (including IMGs) who enter the match compared to DOs. THATS THE ONLY REASON WHY YOU DON'T SEE A LOT OF DOs IN CERTAIN AREAS.

You guys mentioned that its a numbers game....low board scores as well as other factors are the reason for not getting a cardio-surgery slot BUT NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE A DO.

Guys, I know that you will say you know all this, but when you decide to become a doctor you have TWO paths to choice. I choice the DO path (eventough I got accepted to both MD & DO) because I love the field & it fits me perfectly. If I choose to do cardio-surgery, the opportunities are there for me. I know they are very competitive so it all depends ON ME as a PERSON to work my butt-off (get good grades, kick butt on the boards, do well on rotations, etc..) if I want that specialty & I won't be limited because I have a DO degree.

Please change that kind of thinking in your head because thats not reality in the medical world. IF you decide to enter medicine (MD or DO) you will have to prove yourself if you want something. STOP WORRYING WHATS AFTER YOUR NAME!!! Be blessed that you get a chance to study medicine atleast.

Rob
WesternU/COMP CLass of 2002

 

[Future DOc]

You guys are WAY OFF again!!! I don't mean to be critical, but you have to check your fact sheet one more time.

The reason a lot of DOs are not seen in those "so-called" other specialities is because a) most people who attend DO schools are primary-oriented from the beginning-OMT fits nicely in those fields & b)there are way too much more MDs (including IMGs) who enter the match compared to DOs. THATS THE ONLY REASON WHY YOU DON'T SEE A LOT OF DOs IN CERTAIN AREAS.

You guys mentioned that its a numbers game....low board scores as well as other factors are the reason for not getting a cardio-surgery slot BUT NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE A DO.

Guys, I know that you will say you know all this, but when you decide to become a doctor you have TWO paths to choice. I choice the DO path (eventough I got accepted to both MD & DO) because I love the field & it fits me perfectly. If I choose to do cardio-surgery, the opportunities are there for me. I know they are very competitive so it all depends ON ME as a PERSON to work my butt-off (get good grades, kick butt on the boards, do well on rotations, etc..) if I want that specialty & I won't be limited because I have a DO degree.

Please change that kind of thinking in your head because thats not reality in the medical world. IF you decide to enter medicine (MD or DO) you will have to prove yourself if you want something. STOP WORRYING WHATS AFTER YOUR NAME!!! Be blessed that you get a chance to study medicine atleast.

Rob
WesternU/COMP CLass of 2002

 

[OsteoDOC]

Rob...

Try and relax here. If someone is that concerned about the initials after their name, or what type of medical school the graduate from, let them stay worried. You and I know the realities out there.

One has to remember that most of these posts are from ignorant premeds and some insecure med students. Most don't get what point you were trying to make, and that is to work your ass off and be happy that you are going to be a physician.

It is always interesting how many will look at VERY competitive residencies like CV Surgery, Emergency Medicine, Opthalmology or ENT and say that "I can't get into those residencies because I am a D.O.". It is just another excuse. It is kinda like, and I mean absolutely no offense to African-Americans, an African-American person blaming every bad thing that happens to them on being black. Agrred that there are prejudices out there but that is not the only reason. Bottom line that you don't see many D.O.'s in these residencies (and this doesn't include AOA residencies since ALL of them are D.O.'s) is because they are competitive and since there are 125 allopathic medical schools putting out 16K grads/year compared to 19 osteopathic schools putting out 2K grads/year. I assure you, there were many allopathic grads who didn't get into those residencies either. Guess they can't use that " 'cause I am a D.O." excuse.

Brandon Atkinson, D.O.

 

[Future DOc]

You're right....

I mean no harm to anyone & the reason I like to read/posts on these boards is to TRY & help medical collegues by hopefully giving good advice & pointing out the reality behind things.....especially the DO world.

It just gets frustrating when you try to help BUT noone is LISTENING. I know its no lose on me because I know REALITY in the DO world as well as many others. I guess to each his/her own, right.

Oh well....atleast I tried

Rob
WesternU/COMP Class of 2002

 

[TQL]

Thanks all for your responses. I'm sorry if my question appeared as an arrogant post. I just tried to get some advices about my situation, I didn't mean to create the whole controversy like this. As I stated in my previous post, I'd be proud to be either DO or MD and happy to have chance to study medicine. I just want to get some information about my chance/opportunity to do what I'd like to, that's all. Please don't think that I try to find the excuse for not going to DO school.

 

[DJ]

Tony,

I don't care what you ultimately choose- either D.O. or M.D. I just want to inform you that if you do decline D.O. acceptance this year, you will most likely not receive even an interview from this school next year.

Best of luck,

------------------
DJ
WU/COMP Class of 2004!

 

[Lennox]

Tony,

I hate to break it to you but it's probably true: if you don't take this acceptance at the DO school then you'll probably not get the chance with them next year. You're an older applicant so why not take what you've been given and make the best of it?

On the other hand, it is true that at a lot of the more prestigious schools--say UCSD, for example--you won't get in as a DO. That's just a fact. People like Rob, as well-meaning as they are, will dispute this--in principle, at least--but it's the truth. How do I know? Because I've got friends who've applied there and who have family/relatives on the residency board there. DOs and FMGs aren't accepted into medicine at UCSD; pathology is another question. I would imagine that surgery is off-limits to us there, too. (To be fair, a buddy of mine from UNECOM is going to an interview at Johns Hopkins for medicine, so there are some exceptions...)

The take home point is this: osteopathic medicine encompasses more than allopathy in terms of training. But the overall numbers are lower, especially when one looks at the entering students' MCAT scores, and that makes people leery of their products--the students who are applying for residencies. Put it this way: they view it as a case of mediocre in, mediocre out. It's not the way I look at it but I'm not the person you need to convince.

I want to do IM, and I have no doubt that I will do it unless I change my mind along the way. But doing surgery as a DO is much harder because of the way we're perceived by those who hand out the surgery residencies. The people who tell you it's all about "you and your inner-self" are just selling pipe dreams. Perhaps in another fifty years, when osteopathy is much better known, this will be the case. But it isn't that way now. If surgery is your dream then you really have but one solution: reapply and don't look back.

 

[Future DOc]

Lennox,

Are you currently a 3rd yr or 4th yr DO medical student? Are you a DO intern or resident? Are you even a current DO medical student? If you aren't they you don't know EXACTLY what's its like applying or pursuing residencies slots whether primary or a specialty. Am I right?

You can point out my friend does this, my friend does that, etc.. but when do you ever decide what you wanted to become in life by what people tell you. You said, "its up to YOU" is nothing but a pipedream. Yeah, whatever!!!

If I decide to pursue surgery or any of the so-called competive residencies & I stuggled. I will know for sure its because of ME not MY DEGREE!!! Remember that DOs can do anything in the realm of medicine. If you run into many hurdles or struggles, quit making so many excuses thats its because of this or because of that. Be mature enough to admit that is was because of YOURSELF &
grow up by trying to improve it!!

You said DOs struggle in pursing this or achieving that, but THERE ARE DOs accomplishing it nonetheless. Explain that to me!!! Its obvious it was the PERSON not the degree. Set that in stone for yourself!!

Rob
WesternU/COMP CLass of 2002

 

[DO Boy]

I just have to join in on this conversation!

I too am in the same very boat! After applying to MD schools, getting a total of 7 interviews in TX over a period of 2 years, I FINALLY decided to try DO -- and only to TCOM. I had worked with DO's before, so they weren't anything new to me. However, my father is a neurosurgeon (MD of course) which was the reason why I only applied MD. Now, the GOOD part: I was ACCEPTED to TCOM! Hooray! But wait, you say, "I thought you wanted to be an MD?" My answer is yes, but I also wanted to be a physician no matter what.

Now that I'm in, let me tell you all what I see is wrong with being a DO, and please correct me if it's wrong: SOME SPECIALTIES ARE VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO ENTER AS AN OSTEOPATH (e.g. Neurosurgery, diagnostic radiology, general surgery, otolaryngology, colon&rectal surgery, or any surgery specialty).

This difficulty is a result of: (1) The AOA not increasing the numbers of residency slots despite the huge increases in the number of DOs, (2) Certain ACGME residencies (e.g. the specialties listed above) seriously preferring MDs over DOs. This is all compounded by the fact that (3) Some DO students believe training is "better" in certain ACGME residencies (which as I said some are biased against DOs), further crowding the limited residency slots -- not to mention IMGs. The same even applies for certain military residencies.

All this severely stacks the odds againsts osteopaths from entering these residencies. I'm not saying it can't be done, but by being an osteopath, it is extra, extra difficult on top of being already extremely difficult to get into.

Thus although I think the DO philosophy and OMT are GREAT things for primary care medicine and the future elderly population, I feel like I'm short changing myself by going DO since I'm inclined to believe that I'd like to be some kind of surgeon -- the specialty that's doubly harder to get into by being a DO.

Of course, I loved Andromeda Strain when I was in grade school, and ever since I've shown interest in infectious disease (my Masters in Public Health is in disease control; I'm working on my thesis now). BUT I certainly can see myself being a neurosurgeon and using the best OMT known to prevent having to do sugery for herniated disks, low back pain, etc (I hear this can be done -- or at least treated). What happy patients I would have! Anyways, I'll probably still go DO and go with full force.

Anything new and off the conventional branch of things is always hard for other people to accept -- especially for people who think in the conventional way (think copernicus, galileo, MDs and DOs). But, with time people realize the truth, and they look back and realize how naive they have been. Osteopathy has only been around for about 100 years and is just beginning to be seen for its truth by the American public (and MDs). With good leadership, the next one hundred years in osteopathy promises to be very exciting indeed!

I just hope I'm happy if I decide I want to be a surgeon and don't get to be one! Any comments on what to do?

Thank you for reading this.
<h2>DO Boy</h2>

 

[Lennox]

DO Boy:

Well put. Now get ready for the inevitable comeback attempt by Rob, who thinks that his high-pitched whining can change the way we'll be perceived by the allopathic world.

 

[drusso]

DO Boy welcome to TCOM.

I'm a third-year student there now. If training in surgery is what you want, then you'll get it if you have the drive and ambition. I know one fourth-year who interviewed at three very well respected MD neurosurgery programs (and two solid DO neurosurgery programs) and one intern who starts diagnostic radiology at University of Kansas next year. If you have the grades, the board scores, the letters of rec., and the rotations very little will stand in your way to getting training in specialty medicine. It's not as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be...

--dave