Should I even bother applying with these IA's

[forthurs77]

When I first graduated High School, I attended a private university and was going to be pre med. First semester, I was caught with weed, and put on student conduct probation. Weeks later, I was belligerently drunk outside and peeing like an idiot and some girls called the cops and I got arrested and charged with indecent exposure. The charges were dismissed and the record has been sealed. The University, however, took greater action and suspended me for it, and for some reason on the investigation report they found that I was "masturbating." That's not true but there's no way for me to prove that now. I withdrew from all my classes on time and they are non punitive withdrawals.

The next semester, I transferred to a different school, where I started Engineering because I thought my med school dreams were done forever. Didn't do too well for 2 semesters in that and got a 2.2. Since, I switched to biochem for the last 2 semesters, and have had straight A's. On my MCAT practice tests, I am getting about 34s without yet doing the MCAT camp.

Also, not a single blemish on my record since the pissing outside event.

Now when I report the IAs, I'm gonna say I was caught peeing, all the charges were dismissed and sealed, and I got suspended and everything. I'm certainly not going to mention the details (how the university investigation report says I was masturbating), but they may find out if they request a letter from the previous institution. The institution said they would not mention those details unless specifically asked for those details.

To me, that's so disturbing to Adcoms, that I'll have no chance at all if they think I was masturbating outside. It's complete bull**** but I guess that's what you get for being a drunk ******* peing outside...you never know what others may interpret.

Now, Im thinking I should just not disclose it. There's no record of me having attended the previous institution and when the adcoms request a deans letter or any conduct issues from my current institution nothing will show up at all. Obviously I shouldnt do this, but do you think that my conduct issue is so great that it's going to disqualify me anyways?

Please let me know your thoughts even if the answer is I should just give this dream up.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Well people are going to eat you alive for saying that you're considering lying about having attended that institution on top of all the other things. Also, if anyone has the ability to see that the university thought you were masturbating in public I'm going to take a wild guess and say that that's something you probably couldn't come back from.
Being caught with weed usually isn't too bad, but repeated issues, especially if one sounds sexual, are really bad. The adcoms on this site can let you know the specifics, but they'll like be harsh on you for the way you describe these events.

 

[narvik2016]

I could be very wrong, so hopefully a long-time SDN member will correct me if I am, but I would think that adcoms would know that you attended the first institution with the IAs because you have to report every single institution you have ever attended to AMCAS. Even though you withdrew from the classes, I think you still have to report those classes as Ws on your AMCAS application. It is a very, very bad idea not to disclose information, even if you think it won't come up. On the off chance that it does come up and adcoms discover that you were not honest- bad, bad situation. You need to own your mistakes and demonstrate how you have learned from them.

 

[Womb Raider]

Are any of the hours you will be using for your applications from the school where you got that IA? If not, I see no reason to report it?

Also, if you do decide to report the IA, you could say something like "I'm not at liberty to discuss the specifics of the matter because the criminal charges were dismissed and the contents of the matter sealed by a judge" but you could say something vague like it was a stupid college prank/conduct violation, where no one got hurt.

/shrug - you're in a tough spot. I'd read the fine print (aka learn exactly what you need to disclose) , then talk to your lawyer to find out the best, most eloquent way to say what you need to say without admitting too much.

 

[forthurs77]

Well people are going to eat you alive for saying that you're considering lying about having attended that institution on top of all the other things. Also, if anyone has the ability to see that the university thought you were masturbating in public I'm going to take a wild guess and say that that's something you probably couldn't come back from.
Being caught with weed usually isn't too bad, but repeated issues, especially if one sounds sexual, are really bad. The adcoms on this site can let you know the specifics, but they'll like be harsh on you for the way you describe these events.

Yeah I will get eaten alive, but a mans gotta do what he's gotta do. There is literally no way for the med schools to find out that I ever attended that institution, and omitting my time there is the only way I stand a chance.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Yeah I will get eaten alive, but a mans gotta do what he's gotta do. There is literally no way for the med schools to find out that I ever attended that institution, and omitting my time there is the only way I stand a chance.

No one here would ever advise you to do this even if there WAS a chance you could get away with it. Luckily for you it's not much a decision, you'd be throwing money away because of this:
http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/

Med schools/AMCAS can use it to see every institution you've been to. No way to hide from the past.

 

[forthurs77]

Let's just say I do report that I attended the previous institution, and show all the W grades. Then, I don't report any IAs. Would you guys agree, that more likely than not, even if they do require a deans letter or conduct record, they will require it only from the current institution where I have no issues, and not the previous one? Or would they ask both schools?

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Let's just say I do report that I attended the previous institution, and show all the W grades. Then, I don't report any IAs. Would you guys agree, that more likely than not, even if they do require a deans letter or conduct record, they will require it only from the current institution where I have no issues, and not the previous one? Or would they ask both schools?

This is the wrong forum to ask how to go about skirting the rules. You have to report ALL IAs and institutions attended.

 

[forthurs77]

No one here would ever advise you to do this even if there WAS a chance you could get away with it. Luckily for you it's not much a decision, you'd be throwing money away because of this:
http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/

Med schools/AMCAS can use it to see every institution you've been to. No way to hide from the past.

Actually this isn't true. Issuing a FERPA block on a school makes it so that it no longer shows up on the student clearing house website.

I also have the option of disclosing that I did attend the prev institution and just saying I never got any IAs. More likely than not they don't confirm that stuff, and even if they do it usually would only be most recent school. What do you think?

Keep in mind that full disclosure literally means I have no chance. So why not lie and at least have a chance?

 

[LizzyM]

Check the transcript of school #2. You might find that your previous matriculation at school #1 is listed there. If you get busted when your original transcript is sent to the med school where you have accepted an offer of admission, GAME OVER.

Likewise, you could get caught when AMCAS verifies your application if it compares your transcript to your application and sees the prior matriculation listed on your transcript.

As @NotASerialKiller points out, you could get caught through the studentclearinghouse. You also have to explain why you started college a half year later than expected based on your HS graduation date which is on your AMCAS application.

When you sign off on the AMCAS, you certify that everything is complete and correct. If you lie, and the lie is ever discovered, it is grounds for dismissal. If anyone knows of this IA and might raise it as a question, and it is not listed on your application, you are toast.

Your best bet, I think is to report the suspension describing it as belligerent behavior while drunk. Also say that you arrested but the charges were dropped and the record sealed. Leave it at that. Find out which schools require a letter from the school with details of the event (I've heard that WashU requires it, I don't know about others), and don't apply to those schools.

In your shoes, I'd also be concerned about the GPA as that 2.2 in the early years is going to hurt.

 

[forthurs77]

I will

Check the transcript of school #2. You might find that your previous matriculation at school #1 is listed there. If you get busted when your original transcript is sent to the med school where you have accepted an offer of admission, GAME OVER.

Likewise, you could get caught when AMCAS verifies your application if it compares your transcript to your application and sees the prior matriculation listed on your transcript.

As @NotASerialKiller points out, you could get caught through the studentclearinghouse. You also have to explain why you started college a half year later than expected based on your HS graduation date which is on your AMCAS application.

When you sign off on the AMCAS, you certify that everything is complete and correct. If you lie, and the lie is ever discovered, it is grounds for dismissal. If anyone knows of this IA and might raise it as a question, and it is not listed on your application, you are toast.

Your best bet, I think is to report the suspension describing it as belligerent behavior while drunk. Also say that you arrested but the charges were dropped and the record sealed. Leave it at that. Find out which schools require a letter from the school with details of the event (I've heard that WashU requires it, I don't know about others), and don't apply to those schools.

In your shoes, I'd also be concerned about the GPA as that 2.2 in the early years is going to hurt.

I really appreciate that. I'm going to take the route of full disclosure, I'm not wanting to risk even getting in to have my hopes crushed by someone finding out later. The GPA should be around 3.6 when I graduate, so I'm not too concerned with that as it shows an amazing upward trend and hopefully my MCAT can balance it out. Do you think there are some schools, though, that wouldn't require all the details of the event?

 

[LizzyM]

I will


I really appreciate that. I'm going to take the route of full disclosure, I'm not wanting to risk even getting in to have my hopes crushed by someone finding out later. The GPA should be around 3.6 when I graduate, so I'm not too concerned with that as it shows an amazing upward trend and hopefully my MCAT can balance it out. Do you think there are some schools, though, that wouldn't require all the details of the event?

As mentioned, some schools require a "Dean's Letter" that gives the details of any institutional actions or pending actions. You should find out which medical schools do so and avoid those schools.

 

[wasteofspace323]

I'm going to take the route of full disclosure

I'm pretty sure that she was suggesting you take the middle path, mate. Just BS it. Fundamentally all schools will require you to write a paragraph explaining the event on your secondary. Describe it as ambiguously as possible. Don't mention your penis was involved.

 

[forthurs77]

I'm pretty sure that she was suggesting you take the middle path, mate. Just BS it. Fundamentally all schools will require you to write a paragraph explaining the event on your secondary. Describe it as ambiguously as possible. Don't mention your penis was involved.

Haha by full disclosure I mean report the school was attended and that I was suspended for peeing outside. Nothing about the BS masturbation allegation

 

[NotASerialKiller]

I'm pretty sure that she was suggesting you take the middle path, mate. Just BS it. Fundamentally all schools will require you to write a paragraph explaining the event on your secondary. Describe it as ambiguously as possible. Don't mention your penis was involved.

"Urine passed from my bladder to the exterior of my body through unknown means."

 

[forthurs77]

As mentioned, some schools require a "Dean's Letter" that gives the details of any institutional actions or pending actions. You should find out which medical schools do so and avoid those schools.

Okay and other than this schools don't just randomly call conduct offices and ask for this info right? Even if a school did request a Dean's letter, would they request it from both schools attended or the 2nd one where I actually graduated and got all my credits

 

[wasteofspace323]

Haha by full disclosure I mean report the school was attended and that I was suspended for peeing outside. Nothing about the BS masturbation allegation

I'm just saying I would stick to "belligerent behavior while drunk" unless you're prompted at an interview to discuss just what parts of your body were behaving belligerently.

 

[LizzyM]

Okay and other than this schools don't just randomly call conduct offices and ask for this info right? Even if a school did request a Dean's letter, would they request it from both schools attended or the 2nd one where I actually graduated and got all my credits

I think that FERPA pretty much limits what schools can say over the phone given that the school really can't verify who is calling and their legitimate reason for seeking this information. Schools are pretty much going to require your written consent to release this information which is why the schools that want it will have you sign a form authorizing your Dean of Students (or whatever title a person in that role has at your school) to release your records to XYZ medical school.

 

[forthurs77]

I think that FERPA pretty much limits what schools can say over the phone given that the school really can't verify who is calling and their legitimate reason for seeking this information. Schools are pretty much going to require your written consent to release this information which is why the schools that want it will have you sign a form authorizing your Dean of Students (or whatever title a person in that role has at your school) to release your records to XYZ medical school.

You seem to be very knowledgable about this stuff. Let's say I don't lie but do omit the masturbation allegation from the school, and then they find out from the full report that the school did find that in their "investigations." Would I be completely disqualified for something like that or would there still be a chance? Greater chances at DO schools or the Caribbean?

 

[IlyaR]

As mentioned, some schools require a "Dean's Letter" that gives the details of any institutional actions or pending actions. You should find out which medical schools do so and avoid those schools.

BU and Temple do. Huge pain actually. Been taking my undergrad 2 weeks to write one sentence about academic probation from 9 years ago

 

[NotASerialKiller]

You seem to be very knowledgable about this stuff. Let's say I don't lie but do omit the masturbation allegation from the school, and then they find out from the full report that the school did find that in their "investigations." Would I be completely disqualified for something like that or would there still be a chance? Greater chances at DO schools or the Caribbean?

Your chances are fantastic at Caribbean schools, because they will take anyone. Dig around for the threads on this topic, there are many of them, all packed with reasons to never go there.

 

[LizzyM]

You seem to be very knowledgable about this stuff. Let's say I don't lie but do omit the masturbation allegation from the school, and then they find out from the full report that the school did find that in their "investigations." Would I be completely disqualified for something like that or would there still be a chance? Greater chances at DO schools or the Caribbean?

Your goal is not to have the masturbation accusation come out, if you'll pardon the pun. Does beating off in public while drunk come under the "belligerent behavior while drunk"? Belligerent seems to suggest fighting but it seems you're not a fighter but a lover... was it Woody Allen who said "Hey, don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone I love." In any case, I'd think you want to do all you can to keep the details of the event out of the public eye. (There I go again.) Some med schools might raise an eyebrow at an undergrad institution that suspends someone over bad behavior while drunk but many schools will overlook drunken behavior. Weed... I know someone IRL who struck out in two application rounds with weed on the application but I think there might have been questions raised about his fascination with it because his research, his volunteerism and everything else after the event was related to pot and seeing that in the experience section just kept in on the radar long after the page describing the IA had been scrolled past.

 

[forthurs77]

Your goal is not to have the masturbation accusation come out, if you'll pardon the pun. Does beating off in public while drunk come under the "belligerent behavior while drunk"? Belligerent seems to suggest fighting but it seems you're not a fighter but a lover... was it Woody Allen who said "Hey, don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone I love." In any case, I'd think you want to do all you can to keep the details of the event out of the public eye. (There I go again.) Some med schools might raise an eyebrow at an undergrad institution that suspends someone over bad behavior while drunk but many schools will overlook drunken behavior. Weed... I know someone IRL who struck out in two application rounds with weed on the application but I think there might have been questions raised about his fascination with it because his research, his volunteerism and everything else after the event was related to pot and seeing that in the experience section just kept in on the radar long after the page describing the IA had been scrolled past.

So if I apply to enough schools there will probably be a few that don't require additional documentation from the school regarding the suspension? Is that what I'm counting on?

 

[StudyLater]

Peeing is considered "belligerent behavior?" I'm not sure. It's just public urination. That's quite different from getting in a bar fight. Either way your plight is both serious and hilarious. The best kind.

Your goal is not to have the masturbation accusation come out, if you'll pardon the pun. Does beating off in public while drunk come under the "belligerent behavior while drunk"? Belligerent seems to suggest fighting but it seems you're not a fighter but a lover... was it Woody Allen who said "Hey, don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone I love." In any case, I'd think you want to do all you can to keep the details of the event out of the public eye. (There I go again.) Some med schools might raise an eyebrow at an undergrad institution that suspends someone over bad behavior while drunk but many schools will overlook drunken behavior. Weed... I know someone IRL who struck out in two application rounds with weed on the application but I think there might have been questions raised about his fascination with it because his research, his volunteerism and everything else after the event was related to pot and seeing that in the experience section just kept in on the radar long after the page describing the IA had been scrolled past.

Jesus Lizzy I hope I get to interview with you.

 

[Strudel19]

Peeing in public is not an uncommon thing. In my experience the legal system just wants your money. Depending on your state laws, you might be able to clean something like this up. If you can't, what can you do? Just move on and prove you're not that same person. Don't try to hide this. Disclose everything you have to and just fess up to it. There truly is nothing you can do, and hiding it isn't going to do much good either.

 

[Oh_Gee]

Peeing is considered "belligerent behavior?" I'm not sure. It's just public urination. That's quite different from getting in a bar fight. Either way your plight is both serious and hilarious. The best kind.



Jesus Lizzy I hope I get to interview with you.

i would hope she throws down with all the puns

 

[Goro]

Why do you think that DO schools would have a greater tolerance for being evasive?

My clinical colleagues take professionalism very seriously since they know that dishonest doctors start our by being dishonest students.

Lie on an app and you might as well set fire to your computer.

You seem to be very knowledgable about this stuff. Let's say I don't lie but do omit the masturbation allegation from the school, and then they find out from the full report that the school did find that in their "investigations." Would I be completely disqualified for something like that or would there still be a chance? Greater chances at DO schools or the Caribbean?

 

[candbgirl]

So if I apply to enough schools there will probably be a few that don't require additional documentation from the school regarding the suspension? Is that what I'm counting on?

How many times does she have to tell you to call the schools you are interested in and ask if they will request letters from the Deans? And you really should check your transcript. It just might say Transferred from xyz University 00/00/2000.
Oh and LizzyM is incredibly knowledgeable. She is faculty, Adcom member etc etc at a high ranking med school.

 

[Goro]

Not merely high ranking, but up in the stratosphere.

Oh and LizzyM is incredibly knowledgeable. She is faculty, Adcom member etc etc at a high ranking med school.

 

[forthurs77]

How many times does she have to tell you to call the schools you are interested in and ask if they will request letters from the Deans? And you really should check your transcript. It just might say Transferred from xyz University 00/00/2000.
Oh and LizzyM is incredibly knowledgeable. She is faculty, Adcom member etc etc at a high ranking med school.

Is that something they would just tell me? With anonymity I protect myself but why would they disclose knowledge to help someone skirt the system?

 

[LizzyM]

Is that something they would just tell me? With anonymity I protect myself but why would they disclose knowledge to help someone skirt the system?

I'd suggest asking on each school specific thread if the current applicants are aware of that schools requirement re a Dean's letter. Those applicants should know and help you out.

 

[Spector1]

.... how do people even think that this kind of behavior is ok. indecent exposure?

 

[Goro]

indeed. Always remember that there are two sides to every story.

.... how do people even think that this kind of behavior is ok. indecent exposure?

 

[md-2020]

Yo OP I don't think your college would label you as "masturbating outdoors" if they had no proof. As far as I know said proof would generally be pretty obvious

So....



why were you masturbating outdoors....?

 

[Spector1]

indeed. Always remember that there are two sides to every story.

true, but as the saying goes, if it looks like a trouser snake, and quacks like a trouser snake, then it probably is a trouser snake.

 

[Psai]

.... how do people even think that this kind of behavior is ok. indecent exposure?

You've never been caught outside with no bathroom in sight and an extremely full bladder?

 

[Oh_Gee]

You've never been caught outside with no bathroom in sight and an extremely full bladder?

yeah what would you do if you were camping in the middle of nowhere or walking in public late at night and no open bathroom in sight

 

[md-2020]

You've never been caught outside with no bathroom in sight and an extremely full bladder?

Schools admin doesn't seem to agree that this is what OP was caught with.

 

[Psai]

yeah what would you do if you were camping in the middle of nowhere or walking in public late at night and no open bathroom in sight

be scared of getting accused of masturbating in public apparently

 

[forthurs77]

Schools admin doesn't seem to agree that this is what OP was caught with.

The investigative office heard the complaining girls' story and heard mine. Decided that I must be completely lying, and the girl must have been completely telling the truth. It was at 3 AM at an area with no light, and the girl was in a car driving by 40 mph. You tell me how accurate her story could have been.

The school investigative office, with no video evidence of any sort, decided by preponderance of evidence, that I was masturbating.

 

[LizzyM]

The investigative office heard the complaining girls' story and heard mine. Decided that I must be completely lying, and the girl must have been completely telling the truth. It was at 3 AM at an area with no light, and the girl was in a car driving by 40 mph. You tell me how accurate her story could have been.

The school investigative office, with no video evidence of any sort, decided by preponderance of evidence, that I was masturbating.

Tell the story your way on your application. I guarantee that the adcoms that have a plurality of members with enlarged prostates will take pity on you and see things your way.

 

[DokterMom]

Maybe its time to close this thread; it appears to turning into a pissing contest

 

[LizzyM]

Maybe its time to close this thread; it appears to turning into a pissing contest

or

 

[forthurs77]

Just talked to the institution where I got in trouble at. They said they destroy records after 7 years since incident. It has been 2 years. Would it be better to apply then without mentioning IA, or mention IA as peeing in public since there would be no details of incident at that point?

 

[LizzyM]

Just talked to the institution where I got in trouble at. They said they destroy records after 7 years since incident. It has been 2 years. Would it be better to apply then without mentioning IA, or mention IA as peeing in public since there would be no details of incident at that point?

I think that some of us are telling you to apply whenever and report an IA of peeing in a public place with a further explanation that it 3 a.m. in a dark area with no bathroom when you answered the call of nature.

If you read the AMCAS instructions, you will see that your first option (waiting & not listing the IA) is not permitted in accordance with AMCAS rules.

 

[Affiche]

What is going on? LizzyM, gonnif, Goro and gyngyn have been absolutely hilarious for the last 3 weeks. Is the application cycle making them delirious?

 

[LizzyM]

We really need to take this whole thing apart bit by bit:

I was belligerently drunk outside and peeing like an idiot and some girls called the cops and I got arrested and charged with indecent exposure. The charges were dismissed and the record has been sealed.

This may not need to be reported given that the charges were dismissed. Some schools on the secondary may ask if you have ever been arrested or charged and if, so, you will have to report, or perhaps, will choose not to submit a secondary to such a school.

Now taking a look at the IA

The University, however, took greater action and suspended me for it, and for some reason on the investigation report they found that I was "masturbating." That's not true but there's no way for me to prove that now

The important thing is what the IA says, not the investigative report which may be what people who claimed to be witnesses told the cops that they saw. So, the OP doesn't need to answer here but the OP needs to know what the grounds for suspension were (no doubt there was something in writing informing you that you were suspended from school) and write that on the med school application. If the reason listed in the suspension notice was indecent exposure or masturbating, then it might be that the answer to the question at the top of the thread is, "No", but if the grounds for suspension don't suggest sexual misbehavior but just say something about intoxication or belligerence, or creating an unsafe environment on campus or something like that, then the OP might be able to report that and give his version of what happened to the point where some med school might take a chance on him.

 

[Marine to MD]

Actually this isn't true. Issuing a FERPA block on a school makes it so that it no longer shows up on the student clearing house website.

I also have the option of disclosing that I did attend the prev institution and just saying I never got any IAs. More likely than not they don't confirm that stuff, and even if they do it usually would only be most recent school. What do you think?

Keep in mind that full disclosure literally means I have no chance. So why not lie and at least have a chance?

Suddenly, the registrar offices at colleges and universities across the nation are being flooded with FERPA block requests and they have no idea why.

 

[forthurs77]

Ok well the suspension letter says "you are hereby suspended for one academic year for inappropriate behavior while intoxicated."

so it seems best route would be to just explain the peeing and being drunk thing. When I talked to the school, however, they said that if someone asked they would disclose the details of the incident, so long as the school has written permission from me.

Will a med school get permission from me before they ask my UG for details or can they just do it because I may have signed some sort of disclosure on the AMCAS? If they ask I can at least withdraw my application to them then as the details are pretty nail in the coffin

 

[LizzyM]

Ok well the suspension letter says "you are hereby suspended for one academic year for inappropriate behavior while intoxicated."

so it seems best route would be to just explain the peeing and being drunk thing. When I talked to the school, however, they said that if someone asked they would disclose the details of the incident, so long as the school has written permission from me.

Will a med school get permission from me before they ask my UG for details or can they just do it because I may have signed some sort of disclosure on the AMCAS? If they ask I can at least withdraw my application to them then as the details are pretty nail in the coffin

Have you reviewed your file as is your right under FERPA? What are the details of the case that appear in writing in your official file. I strongly suspect that if asked to confirm that the school would only list what is in the suspension letter, not what was in the report by the campus cops. I would read the AMCAS booklet thoroughly and pay particular attention to whatever statements you endorse when you "sign" the AMCAS.

Also, do not waive your right to review any letter sent by the school about this incident. You have the right under federal law to see anything that the school releases about you and in your circumstances you need to know what is being released.