Should I finish my PhD or Master out before vet school?

[longtailmonkey]

Hi, it's my first time posting! I am an unhappy PhD student hoping to go into vet med, and tldr; I'm wondering if it would it help my application to finish my PhD if my goal is to end up in lab animal med? Or master out as soon as I finish my unfulfilled pre-reqs?

Some background:

A number of years ago I was convinced to leave behind my vet school dreams (in part by my research mentor at the time and my parents, but also because I was too young and financially inexperienced to understand how I would/if I could shoulder the massive student debt). I explored human med and biomedical research, and decided to pursue a PhD in Neuroscience because I enjoyed working with animal models (for my PhD I am essentially running a preclinical drug trial in a mouse model).

However, once the butterflies of getting accepted into my program wore off, I'm left feeling rather empty. I'm glad I have a relatively high stipend for a grad student and can afford to buy small luxuries for my many pets, but I'm not really invested in the small details or the daily grind of publishing--I just don't care anymore about whether or not the damage by this small protein we study can be reversed with another small protein, and when I think ahead to the future--working in industry, running a lab, teaching at CC--none of the options really speak to me. I feel kind of depressed, and I'm only in my first year.

In my ideal future, I would like to become a lab animal vet or potentially go into shelter medicine. I feel most at home in our university's vivarium, where I care for my lab's colony of ~700 mice. Recently, there have been many days where I really have to drag myself out of bed to go to meetings or work on my first publication, and the only thing I still look forward to is working with the mice. I am ok with the significant student debt that comes with vet school if I will care about my work and look forward to it.

My question now is--should I finish my PhD (my advisor thinks I can graduate in 4 years because I worked in the lab previously as a technician and am continuing the same project) before applying to vet school, or master out after my 2nd year? Would it help my application to have a PhD if my goal is to work in lab animal med? I am currently 27 years old and would finish my PhD hopefully when I'm 31.

Brief overview of my pre-reqs:

Animal experience--In a research context I have close to ten thousand hours of experience with rodents, including brain implant surgery, neuro-imaging, dissections, investigating mysterious deaths with the lab vets, and breeding/general husbandry. In a non-research context, I previously volunteered at my local shelter for ~30 hours and intend to start again once quarantine restrictions lift. I am also hoping to volunteer at a therapeutic horseriding center after the quarantine, and hopefully shadow a SA vet.

I am missing a number of pre-requisite classes still. I never took physiology, genetics, microbiology, or the 2nd semester of organic chemistry (my worst fear!). I can take these classes for free as a PhD student, which is one incentive to see it through.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks!!

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[MixedAnimals77]

I can't really speak on finishing your PhD vs a masters especially with lab vet as the end goal. However if you ended up in GP or shelter med unless you want to teach a masters would probably be the way to go. Perhaps someone who's in a combined program might have words of wisdom. Also tagging the lab animal vet for her input. @supershorty @KCgophervet @WildZoo
I would recommend you get some more shadowing experience in regular vet med practice as well before taking the leap. I also worry that the "acceptance wear off" you talk about will happen again and you will just be left feeling empty in a different field with much more debt.

 

[supershorty]

I'd see it through, but not necessarily for the reasons you might expect. I feel like I usually tell people to bail if they don't like it, but the current economic situation has changed my thoughts on it a little bit.

1.) Having a stable job and paycheck right now is really valuable. Grad school kind of stinks, especially in your first year and when you're studying for quals, but there's something to be said about being able to feed yourself and pay rent relatively comfortably. Being able to take those courses for free is an added bonus (would this still apply if you were a master's student?). And once you get through your quals (which would probably be in your second year), there really isn't much that can stop you from getting your PhD.

2.) "There have been many days where I really have to drag myself out of bed" - I feel like this is actually how graduate school is and no one tells incoming students that. The day-to-day in grad school is not that great. It's hard and it's tedious, sometimes boring, and often overwhelming. But vet school is similar. It's a different kind of overwhelming, but the day-to-day in vet school isn't that fun either. To be clear - I overall LOVED vet school (at least up to the point where I stepped out to do my PhD), and I would not say the same thing about grad school. But what you described sounds like a very typical grad student feeling to me, even from people who aren't in a dual degree program and want to do 100% research for their entire careers. Grad school kind of sucks. But vet school kind of sucks too. In both, you'll get nuggets of achievement or experiences that make it worth it. Or you won't - but what you're describing sounds very typical grad student to me, tbh, not someone in a career crisis who really wants/needs to bail for their mental health.

3.) I'm honestly not sure having a PhD versus a master's would make a big difference for what you want to do with your career, but I guess I don't see a reason NOT to finish it if you get through your quals and aren't completely miserable. Others might feel differently.

4.) Definitely get more shadowing experience in regular vet med outside of lab animal.

 

[WildZoo]

Forgive my ignorance in how these things work...would it be possible to apply to vet school and peace out on the PhD if you get in?

I'm doing my PhD solely because I love the area of research that I'm working in and the people I'm working with, and because of the skills I will acquire that I think will be beneficial for my future goals. The networking in my area of interest doesn't hurt either. I can't imagine doing all this if the end goal wasn't something I was passionate about. Then again, while I've been working for this lab for a couple years, I only just started PhD work. So we'll see how I feel in a few months

I can't speak to how much having a PhD will help for lab animal med but I doubt it will do much at all for shelter med. I would 100% get some heavy experience in other areas of vet med before you make the leap though.

And strongly consider the financial things that shorty mentioned. If you're going to have to take prereqs to be able to apply to vet school, might as well take them for free while you're getting a stipend in addition.

 

[Lab Vet]

Hi, it's my first time posting! I am an unhappy PhD student hoping to go into vet med, and tldr; I'm wondering if it would it help my application to finish my PhD if my goal is to end up in lab animal med? Or master out as soon as I finish my unfulfilled pre-reqs?

Some background:

A number of years ago I was convinced to leave behind my vet school dreams (in part by my research mentor at the time and my parents, but also because I was too young and financially inexperienced to understand how I would/if I could shoulder the massive student debt). I explored human med and biomedical research, and decided to pursue a PhD in Neuroscience because I enjoyed working with animal models (for my PhD I am essentially running a preclinical drug trial in a mouse model).

However, once the butterflies of getting accepted into my program wore off, I'm left feeling rather empty. I'm glad I have a relatively high stipend for a grad student and can afford to buy small luxuries for my many pets, but I'm not really invested in the small details or the daily grind of publishing--I just don't care anymore about whether or not the damage by this small protein we study can be reversed with another small protein, and when I think ahead to the future--working in industry, running a lab, teaching at CC--none of the options really speak to me. I feel kind of depressed, and I'm only in my first year.

In my ideal future, I would like to become a lab animal vet or potentially go into shelter medicine. I feel most at home in our university's vivarium, where I care for my lab's colony of ~700 mice. Recently, there have been many days where I really have to drag myself out of bed to go to meetings or work on my first publication, and the only thing I still look forward to is working with the mice. I am ok with the significant student debt that comes with vet school if I will care about my work and look forward to it.

My question now is--should I finish my PhD (my advisor thinks I can graduate in 4 years because I worked in the lab previously as a technician and am continuing the same project) before applying to vet school, or master out after my 2nd year? Would it help my application to have a PhD if my goal is to work in lab animal med? I am currently 27 years old and would finish my PhD hopefully when I'm 31.

Brief overview of my pre-reqs:

Animal experience--In a research context I have close to ten thousand hours of experience with rodents, including brain implant surgery, neuro-imaging, dissections, investigating mysterious deaths with the lab vets, and breeding/general husbandry. In a non-research context, I previously volunteered at my local shelter for ~30 hours and intend to start again once quarantine restrictions lift. I am also hoping to volunteer at a therapeutic horseriding center after the quarantine, and hopefully shadow a SA vet.

I am missing a number of pre-requisite classes still. I never took physiology, genetics, microbiology, or the 2nd semester of organic chemistry (my worst fear!). I can take these classes for free as a PhD student, which is one incentive to see it through.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks!!

Hi OP (or should I say, kindred spirit):

I'm a practicing lab animal vet, and actually did exactly what you're proposing. Left my PhD (comparative physiology) multiple years in with a terminal Master's degree. Completed vet school in my 30s- am now working my dream job in industry. I have ZERO regrets re: exiting my PhD program. In my case, it was the right decision. Exiting the PhD didn't devalue in the least the experience I gained (and personal growth that occurred) during the years I spent pursuing the research degree. I wouldn't be where I am today without that chapter of my life. Please see link below (click on the link and search for a post by 'Lab Vet') for a previous summary of my experience. Feel free to reach out should you have any questions. Best of success in making this very difficult decision.

Dropping out of vet school after 3 years (and very depressed)

Hey guys, I'm new here and facing unfortently a very hard decision in my life. I'm a vet student, male, 25 years old living in europe (foreign student here) and i'm thinking deeply about dropping school after 6 semesters, because i'm became depressed and unhappy with my degree and can't...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[longtailmonkey]

Hi OP (or should I say, kindred spirit):

I'm a practicing lab animal vet, and actually did exactly what you're proposing. Left my PhD (comparative physiology) multiple years in with a terminal Master's degree. Completed vet school in my 30s- am now working my dream job in industry. I have ZERO regrets re: exiting my PhD program. In my case, it was the right decision. Exiting the PhD didn't devalue in the least the experience I gained (and personal growth that occurred) during the years I spent pursuing the research degree. I wouldn't be where I am today without that chapter of my life. Please see link below (click on the link and search for a post by 'Lab Vet') for a previous summary of my experience. Feel free to reach out should you have any questions. Best of success in making this very difficult decision.

Dropping out of vet school after 3 years (and very depressed)

Hey guys, I'm new here and facing unfortently a very hard decision in my life. I'm a vet student, male, 25 years old living in europe (foreign student here) and i'm thinking deeply about dropping school after 6 semesters, because i'm became depressed and unhappy with my degree and can't...

forums.studentdoctor.net

@Lab Vet, you are my role model! I'm so happy to hear that it all paid out for you in the end. Your story is truly inspiring, and I admire your perseverance.

A lot of the feelings you describe in your post resonate with me very closely, especially that "aha" moment you had when you realized it just wasn't for you. Although I'm a 1st year PhD student, I've been working in the same lab on the same project for 4 years now. I recently interviewed an undergraduate RA to help me with this project, and seeing her excitement made me remember the beginning--when everything was new and I was soooooo excited. And it was kind of sad to realize I was now a jaded, tired, old graduate student who didn't care anymore.

Your mentor's words "You'd be amazed at what you can recover from" ring very true, and is very comforting to know. I have spent a lot of time recently beating myself up for taking others' advice when I was younger to "just do human med if you can". I applied to both human med and PhD in the same cycle but wasn't very enthusiastic about either. I hoped getting an acceptance would give me the strength I needed to finish an entire PhD. But alas.......if anything, struggling through a pandemic makes one reconsider what's really important and what they really want.

Anyways, so glad to have learned about your journey! Thanks for opening up your DMs, as I continue down the pre-vet path, I will very possibly reach out to you.

I'd see it through, but not necessarily for the reasons you might expect. I feel like I usually tell people to bail if they don't like it, but the current economic situation has changed my thoughts on it a little bit.

1.) Having a stable job and paycheck right now is really valuable. Grad school kind of stinks, especially in your first year and when you're studying for quals, but there's something to be said about being able to feed yourself and pay rent relatively comfortably. Being able to take those courses for free is an added bonus (would this still apply if you were a master's student?). And once you get through your quals (which would probably be in your second year), there really isn't much that can stop you from getting your PhD.

2.) "There have been many days where I really have to drag myself out of bed" - I feel like this is actually how graduate school is and no one tells incoming students that. The day-to-day in grad school is not that great. It's hard and it's tedious, sometimes boring, and often overwhelming. But vet school is similar. It's a different kind of overwhelming, but the day-to-day in vet school isn't that fun either. To be clear - I overall LOVED vet school (at least up to the point where I stepped out to do my PhD), and I would not say the same thing about grad school. But what you described sounds like a very typical grad student feeling to me, even from people who aren't in a dual degree program and want to do 100% research for their entire careers. Grad school kind of sucks. But vet school kind of sucks too. In both, you'll get nuggets of achievement or experiences that make it worth it. Or you won't - but what you're describing sounds very typical grad student to me, tbh, not someone in a career crisis who really wants/needs to bail for their mental health.

3.) I'm honestly not sure having a PhD versus a master's would make a big difference for what you want to do with your career, but I guess I don't see a reason NOT to finish it if you get through your quals and aren't completely miserable. Others might feel differently.

4.) Definitely get more shadowing experience in regular vet med outside of lab animal.

@supershorty These are super good points.

1) You are right that having a stable job + paycheck feels like a godsend right now, especially since I'm still learning to save and be good at managing money. Being able to take classes for free is a huge relief, although because I also have to take PhD classes, it's going to be tough. But manageable.

2) Same, I have yet to meet a graduate student past their 2nd year who doesn't think grad school sucks. It used to baffle me when I was a staff researcher in the same lab, and I was super excited about the project I had (which is the same project I"m continuing now)--how having the title "grad student" could change one's enthusiasm so much. But then it happened to me, and now I get it...although I'm still confused why it happens. It feels a little bit like the end of the honeymoon period of a new relationship, and you have to decide at that point whether you really like the person/career or it's time to part ways.

3) I think you hit the nail on the head with that final point! I'm not entirely miserable, I still like working with my hands, and I recently hired a new undergrad (who is in the honeymoon phase of research still), and seeing her enthusiasm makes my day a bit easier.

I guess what it comes down to is that I don't mind doing what I do now, for now--but I dread the future. E.g. becoming a PI, doing research in industry, or all the job options that are there.

Thanks everyone, for your help. You've convinced me I might as well stick it out while I finish my pre-reqs and gain more animal experience, up until 4 years (but not beyond that). Luckily my PhD advisor is very encouraging and has let students graduate in the past even if their projects didn't work. Fingers crossed I can somehow pull this off.

So we'll see...in the meantime, I renewed my tetanus shot today so I can sign up to volunteer with animals on the weekends, and I signed up for an undergrad physiology class this fall. I'm excited!