Should I just not apply to any private schools? 400-500K debt seems like a poor financial decision.

[Ollivander]

After reading this thread (Link) and the posts by (@Incis0r, @sgv), I feel as though I should probably keep taking shots at my IS school (UAB) as well as other state schools and just leaving privates off completely due to costs. I'm about to finish undergrad and do a SMP that will put me ~25K in debt, so would it be a wiser financial decision to only apply to my state school and the state schools that aren't marked out below? I'm really just looking for advice honestly. I feel like taking on 400-500K worth of debt could turn out to be a very poor financial decision.

oGPA: 3.4
sGPA: 3.25
DAT: TBD

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[alen555]

All the state schools you have listed will cost just as much (some even more) as any private school because you will be paying out of state tuition for all 4 years. Only your own state school will save you money.

 

[Incis0r]

Thanks for the mention! Wow, I made that post a year ago. Funny how time flies.

I feel like taking on 400-500K worth of debt could turn out to be a very poor financial decision.

Trust your instincts on this. It is a very poor financial decision indeed.
If you can get into one of those cheaper schools, do it.

All the state schools you have listed will cost just as much (some even more) as any private school because you will be paying out of state tuition for all 4 years. Only your own state school will save you money.

Several state schools grant in-state residency to OOS applicants after one year- that will make OP's total cost of attendance SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than a private school. UConn is one example that comes to mind.

 

[Ollivander]

All the state schools you have listed will cost just as much (some even more) as any private school because you will be paying out of state tuition for all 4 years. Only your own state school will save you money.

Have you seen the differences in cost?

Let's take Louisville.

Now let's compare this with MWU-AZ.

That's a significant difference.

 

[Ollivander]

Thanks for the mention! Wow, I made that post a year ago. Funny how time flies.


Trust your instincts on this. It is a very poor financial decision indeed.
If you can get into one of those cheaper schools, do it.



Several state schools grant in-state residency to OOS applicants after one year- that will make OP's total cost of attendance SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than a private school. UConn is one example that comes to mind.

Unfortunately at the present time they are average. 3.4 oGPA, 3.25 sGPA without a DAT score. I also have several withdrawals on my transcript, hence why I'm doing a SMP.

 

[Faux]

Could look into the military too. Navy looks nice.

 

[Ollivander]

Could look into the military too. Navy looks nice.

I'm not sure if I'd even be competitive for HPSP. I'm also only slightly familiar with how it works. I'd also be concerned about losing 4 years of building clientele.

 

[milkydusty]

All the state schools you have listed will cost just as much (some even more) as any private school because you will be paying out of state tuition for all 4 years. Only your own state school will save you money.

few schools allow changing residence (qualify for in state tuition (normally 50% off)) after a year.

UNLV, UW, Uconn, Buffalo are doing these for sure.

 

[Ollivander]

few schools allow changing residence (qualify for in state tuition (normally 50% off)) after a year.

UNLV, UW, Uconn, Buffalo are doing these for sure.

I believe that UW is one of the most if not the most competitive school in the country to gain admission into if you're not IS, and even then OOS spots usually go to WICHE applicants. I'm unsure about Buffalo and UConn. I'll need to do more research. Thanks for this!

 

[hellofuturedentists]

I believe that UW is one of the most if not the most competitive school in the country to gain admission into if you're not IS, and even then OOS spots usually go to WICHE applicants. I'm unsure about Buffalo and UConn. I'll need to do more research. Thanks for this!

UConn is also very competitive if you're out of New England.

For your original question, don't apply anywhere you wouldn't go if it ended up being your only acceptance. For example, if you go through a cycle and land one acceptance and it's MWU-AZ, would you be willing to pay that money to attend? If not, don't apply because that'll put you in a very sticky situation.

 

[Dentalogist]

you can also try schools in Texas. its cheap for oos

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Texas dental school dont discriminate against OOS by charging a surcharge tuition because they accept very very few applicants.

Olivander, what is the name of the SMP you are doing that only cost 25 thousands? most SMP costs above 30 thousands.

 

[A Pre-dent]

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[hellofuturedentists]

Applying to a long list of only state schools is not a good strategy nor is it worth the application fees.

If you are an average-to-strong (but not stellar) applicant, you should apply to in-state schools, the few OOS schools that recognize your change in residence (and offer a significant discount, for that matter), and then the private schools you like to which you're qualified to apply. Going to a private dental school is still a better financial decision than not getting into any schools at all this year. If you mess up this application cycle, you will have to wait another year to reapply. That is one less year of your young adulthood without a dentist's salary, which happens to equal or exceed the difference in cost between state schools and private schools anyway. SO, apply to some private schools.

Also, in the big picture, taking on an additional 80-100k in debt to go to a private school with unique opportunities (e.g. Harvard, Columbia) can easily be the best financial decision for students with specific long-term goals.

Idk... OP is from Alabama. UAB is one of the cheapest dental schools in the country. For him, it probably would be more financially sound to wait one more year (and possibly work during that time) than to go to an extremely expensive private school. Based on his stats, he probably has a decent chance to get in the first time anyway. Also, loans accumulate interest so the debt would be more than an additional $80-100k to go to a private school.
And paying a hefty price for Harvard isn't nearly the same as paying that same hefty price for MWU, although I personally probably wouldn't spend that money even then.

 

[allantois]

More people need to wake up to the fact that attending a private dental school is not a wise financial decision at all.

 

[strep mutans]

Idk... OP is from Alabama. UAB is one of the cheapest dental schools in the country. For him, it probably would be more financially sound to wait one more year (and possibly work during that time) than to go to an extremely expensive private school. Based on his stats, he probably has a decent chance to get in the first time anyway. Also, loans accumulate interest so the debt would be more than an additional $80-100k to go to a private school.
And paying a hefty price for Harvard isn't nearly the same as paying that same hefty price for MWU, although I personally probably wouldn't spend that money even then.

Agreed.

OP: Focus on getting the highest DAT score you can - very important. If it were me, I'd apply to UAB only, and take my chances on having to reapply next cycle. I think they accept around 50% of IS applicants if I remember correctly. I'd take those odds, esp with a great DAT.

If having to reapply next year is unthinkable for you though, then add as many OOS/private schools as you need to feel comfortable. But as hellofuturedentists already pointed out, really ask yourself if you'd actually attend each school if it were your only option (as opposed to reapplying to UAB the next year). If it passes that test, then add it to your list.

 

[A Pre-dent]

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[hellofuturedentists]

Agreed.

OP: Focus on getting the highest DAT score you can - very important. If it were me, I'd apply to UAB only, and take my chances on having to reapply next cycle. I think they accept around 50% of IS applicants if I remember correctly. I'd take those odds, esp with a great DAT.

If having to reapply next year is unthinkable for you though, then add as many OOS/private schools as you need to feel comfortable. But as hellofuturedentists already pointed out, really ask yourself if you'd actually attend each school if it were your only option (as opposed to reapplying to UAB the next year). If it passes that test, then add it to your list.

I wouldn't apply just to UAB. A couple schools asked where else I was applying, and I've been told by admissions committees that it's seen as over-confident to only apply to one. It also shows a school that you put "going to UAB dental only" above "being a dentist" on your priority list, which isn't necessarily great. I still think if OP has a great DAT he has a great shot at a great school.

Well, you're right--this hypothetical would be more financially sound for OP, especially since it is Alabama. But I would never put all of my eggs in one basket like that. I guess what I'm saying is that a good financial decision in this situation is one that accounts for the most significant uncertainties. Admission to a single school is a huge uncertainty in this sense, even for applicants who seem overqualified.


BTW,
Another point to be made in this discussion thread is that important life decisions can be endlessly complex financial decisions, yet they also have even more to them. Sure, it is wise to prioritize finance, but as someone who is not going into this profession for the money, I personally would weigh factors such as the quality of the education and my short-term happiness more than other people might. If I get depressed from spending the rest of my 20s in a school I don't like in a crappy town, I might (1) have trouble finding a wife, (2) have a weak network of colleagues centered in an area where I don't want to practice, and (3) lose some of my professional drive. And, the funny thing is, these are all also financial effects, which could potentially dwarf the initial saving! I had a miserable time in undergrad because I ignored these other variables in favor of the school's ranking and alumni earning power, and I don't know if I'll ever fully recover from those four years of being surrounded by sociopaths. I literally can't afford to repeat another four years of unhappiness like that. Everyone is in a unique situation, but I totally think choosing a private school CAN be justified. Granted, I think the cost of even the cheapest dental school is obscene, and something needs to be done about these annual tuition hikes.

I agree he shouldn't just apply to UAB. But a school that ends up costing <$350k is probably still feasible and a better option than one that costs $500k, especially considering he already has debt accumulating.
And I also agree with your second point to an extent. I ultimately picked a school in a city where I knew I could be happy, even though it was more expensive than my cheapest option. However, I also turned down my dream school because it cost an extra $200k more than the place I will be attending. I'm all for being happy, but I also thought I'd be happier not having to worry about that money for the rest of my life. I'm also really pragmatic though. And I guess it all depends on cities. Idk where you ended up choosing, but I hope everything works out well for you

 

[fogorvostan]

Everyone is in a unique situation, but I totally think choosing a private school CAN be justified.

I agree. A lot of people give me a hassle for picking MWU-AZ even though I got into some schools that are slightly cheaper. However, my decision to pick this school was for VERY specific reasons (that are pretty unique to my situation) that greatly outweigh saving some money from a different school.

Like other people said though, if you are absolutely unwilling to pay the price to go to a private school, don't apply to any.

 

[Incis0r]

@Ollivander , you are SO lucky to have an in-state dental school. Very jealous.

Does UAB show any preference for residents of different states, or does it treat all OOS applicants the same? According to the ADEA book, it has no preference for legal residents of any state, yet all OOS enrollees are from Southern states near Alabama?

 

[hellofuturedentists]

@Ollivander , you are SO lucky to have an in-state dental school. Very jealous.

Does UAB show any preference for residents of different states, or does it treat all OOS applicants the same? According to the ADEA book, it has no preference for legal residents of any state, yet all OOS enrollees are from Southern states near Alabama?

I would assume that it's because there aren't many applicants from other regions of the country who ultimately want to move to Alabama. You'd probably find the same with the schools in TN, GA, and LA

 

[alen555]

Have you seen the differences in cost?

Let's take Louisville.

Now let's compare this with MWU-AZ.

That's a significant difference.

Um I would disagree that this is significant. Youre talking about a couple thousand dollars/ year and year 2 is the same. Plus this isn't the only example, Indiana OOS tuition for example is more expensive than Midwesterns tuition.

Also something to keep in mind is that if you do really well, a lot of schools have small scholarships available to the top however many % of the class after first year. These come mostly from gifts from alumni, and you'll find that most state schools only offer this aid to instate students. Private schools obviously don't discriminate.

Im all for going to your instate school, thats a huge financial advantage. But I don't see going to an OOS school as advantageous financially at all. I'd also be a little bitter knowing that the majority of the class is paying half of what i'm paying...

 

[Incis0r]

I don't see going to an OOS school as advantageous financially at all. I'd also be a little bitter knowing that the majority of the class is paying half of what i'm paying...

NYU Dental's total cost of attendance: $487,884 (source: http://dental.nyu.edu/academicprograms/dds-program/tuition.html). NYU is a private school.

Univ. of Buffalo Dental total cost of attendance as OOS D1, and then IS D2-D4- they give in state residency after D1: $311,847 (source: https://dental.buffalo.edu/Portals/0/DDS Estimated Expenses 2015-16.pdf?ver=2015-08-19-104201-363). UB is a state school.

Total savings by going to an OOS state school and then switching to IS after 1 yr in this case: $487,884-$311,847= $176,037 before interest. The real savings is likely closer to $300,000 when you consider interest.

It can be a HUGE financial advantage to go to a OOS state school over a private, depending on the state school.

 

[alen555]

NYU Dental's total cost of attendance: $487,884 (source: http://dental.nyu.edu/academicprograms/dds-program/tuition.html)

SUNY Buffalo total cost of attendance as OOS D1, and then IS D2-D4- they give in state residency after D1: $311,847 (source: https://dental.buffalo.edu/Portals/0/DDS Estimated Expenses 2015-16.pdf?ver=2015-08-19-104201-363)

Total savings by going to an OOS state school and then switching to IS after 1 yr in this case: $487,884-$311,847= $176,037 before interest.

It can be a HUGE financial advantage to go to a OOS state school over a private, depending on the state school.

Only when you use EXTREME examples like the second most expensive private school vs a school that lets you become IS after the first year... When you compare most others there is no advantage.

 

[Incis0r]

Only when you use EXTREME examples like the second most expensive private school vs a school that lets you become IS after the first year... When you compare most others there is no advantage.

Private dental schools ARE very expensive. Look at MWU-AZ, MWU-IL, USC, Tufts, UoP, etc. MANY are very expensive.

Furthermore, several state dental schools give in state tuition after one year. UB is not the only one. One just needs to be diligent and focused in their research when selecting schools to apply to, and it can be done.

@Ollivander is doing the right thing by investigating his options, and I commend him for going into the process with his eyes open.

 

[jokersmiles]

I would at least keep Creighton and Case Western, although they're private they are still comparable in price to most public schools.

Its best to avoid private schools that reach 450K+ like MWU, Tufts, UPenn, USC, NYU etc.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

Only when you use EXTREME examples like the second most expensive private school vs a school that lets you become IS after the first year... When you compare most others there is no advantage.

Some there still are. I'm pretty sure VCU and WVU would be significantly cheaper than the private ones. I don't have the numbers with me, though

 

[dentjo]

You also lose a year worth of dentist income if you dont get in

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[A Pre-dent]

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[hellofuturedentists]

If we're talking a difference of $200k (!!) in loans, then I would do the same thing as you. Now THAT is too much to justify in my opinion. That is the primary reason why I turned down an acceptance to Penn--I don't think students should be footing the bill for a large independent faculty and experimental ultra-high-tech sim labs, among other things, when the medical professors next door and current educational technology seem perfectly fine to me. The other private schools I was considering are about $70-80k more expensive than my state school, which is a sacrifice I could live with given the particulars of the program.

Lol ya it was about $200k extra to go to a state school where I'd be OOS. $70k-$80k is more justifiable and depending on your state school/the school you are matriculating to, I can definitely see your reasoning

 

[dyesht]

More people need to wake up to the fact that attending a private dental school is not a wise financial decision at all.

Being a dentist versus not being one is a wise financial decision, regardless of what school you go to.

 

[allantois]

Being a dentist versus not being one is a wise financial decision, regardless of what school you go to.

I just don't think so. Somebody with a 2 year RN degree will be better off financially than a dentist with 500k of debt before interest.

 

[Incis0r]

Being a dentist versus not being one is a wise financial decision, regardless of what school you go to.

I recommend these threads:

Current General Dentists Shocked by Cost of Dental Education- Saying it is not worth it anymore

A current practicing dentist finds that paying back loans will be next to impossible at today's levels.

A dental student shares his calculations and compares loan repayment with the true take-home pay in today's economic climate.

 

[A Pre-dent]

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[Streax1]

Yeah, shame on those women that desire to raise children full-time instead of work full-time (sarcasm)

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[A Pre-dent]

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[frozenicecreamDMD]

I honestly find it ironic to compare being a dentist vs being a nurse income-wise.

a 2 year RN nurses making near 6 digits are working crazy hours with crazy shift to have that much. Plus, their work environment is very hectic and labor intensive. what is the most important thing? the nurses are just the "do it like you hear it" with no power of decision making process.

the dentists on the other hand, will make more than RN with less hours and much more autonomy. I think the public dental schools (for instates) or public dental school (that allow in state reclassification) are and will be the champs in the near future to attract students.

and I think no matter how rich you are, if you have unrealistic lifestyle and spending habit, no amount of income will suffice.

 

[postpitadh]

I'm also not applying to the expensive private schools next cycle, @Ollivander. Work hard now to be as competitive as possible, so you don't have that added pressure later on of paying back x amount of loans

 

[hellofuturedentists]

No shame. Those women (or men, if we're being progressive) just shouldn't marry dentists with a ton of student debt. According to the threads @Incis0r brought up, such a family clearly could not survive without double income. Ideally, a dentist in a ton of debt would put off having kids for a few years so the loans can be attacked aggressively.

I was about to type out something much longer and much less eloquently worded when you responded lol. But as a woman who wants a family, I also agree. It'd be stupid and selfish to start a family when one spouse is in the hole for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[allantois]

I honestly find it ironic to compare being a dentist vs being a nurse income-wise.

a 2 year RN nurses making near 6 digits are working crazy hours with crazy shift to have that much. Plus, their work environment is very hectic and labor intensive. what is the most important thing? the nurses are just the "do it like you hear it" with no power of decision making process.

the dentists on the other hand, will make more than RN with less hours and much more autonomy. I think the public dental schools (for instates) or public dental school (that allow in state reclassification) are and will be the champs in the near future to attract students.

and I think no matter how rich you are, if you have unrealistic lifestyle and spending habit, no amount of income will suffice.

Wake up! Do you know how much an interest payment alone is going to be on that 500k loan? How about adding a practice loan to that? That hypothetical nurse is working 3 days a week and laughing on her way to the bank. But I agree that making RN comparassions is unfair, try CRNAs or APRNs.

 

[Joey333]

Why isn't loan forgiveness more popular? The NHS loan repayment seems like something I'd be interested in after school without a doubt.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Wake up! Do you know how much an interest payment alone is going to be on that 500k loan? How about adding a practice loan to that? That hypothetical nurse is working 3 days a week and laughing on her way to the bank. But I agree that making RN comparassions is unfair, try CRNAs or APRNs.

Oops. sorry. My previous post is not based on 500k loan. 500k loan is the realty for many private schools now but i believe the in state schools + public OOS that grants IS after one year will give students around 300k, this is doable. Thus, being a dentist 300k in a hole with RN, I will still take being a dentist. Especially entering dental school at age 22-23.

welp, CRNAs and APRNs are very well compensated because the demand is high and the entrances to these fields are very hard ( you must have special experience in so and so particular field to become CRNAs and APRNs) Thus, going this route takes longer because one must become an RN and have years of working experience with a lot of uncertainty.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Why isn't loan forgiveness more popular? The NHS loan repayment seems like something I'd be interested in after school without a doubt.

I guess because most people whine about their debt before finishing schools but after finishing schools, they want to live somewhere they can enjoy life (NHS locations tend to be rural or very rural) Just my speculation.

 

[Joey333]

I guess because most people whine about their debt before finishing schools but after finishing schools, they want to live somewhere they can enjoy life (NHS locations tend to be rural or very rural) Just my speculation.

Its crazy. How could you pass that option up? If you have a a ton of debt, at least that can cut a big chunk of it. You're also serving a population of people that NEED care. There are usually options state by state for loan forgiveness in exchange for working in public health. There ARE good programs out there, it's just not all rainbows and Ferraris a couple years out of school.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Its crazy. How could you pass that option up? If you have a a ton of debt, at least that can cut a big chunk of it. You're also serving a population of people that NEED care. There are usually options state by state for loan forgiveness in exchange for working in public health. There ARE good programs out there, it's just not all rainbows and Ferraris a couple years out of school.

I think that working in public health community center generates less income compared to private practice + the loan forgiveness amount (some states offers 50k/year I heard), whose total is still less than some rural area that people can find. but the location of these public health places is less desirable. and the ultimate goal of dentists is to have a private practice thus working in private setting can give them intangible skills compared to public health.

Anyways, 500k debt is just for the most expensive schools and there are more than a few of these schools. However, 300k is the average while low 200k being the exception nowadays.

dont get freak out by assuming you will only be able to get into the most expensive school. do your research of schools carefully and aim at the cheaper schools and cast ur nest wide at these schools. when you end up at the 300k school, you dont have to worry about public health forgiveness program

 

[Streax1]

I was about to type out something much longer and much less eloquently worded when you responded lol. But as a woman who wants a family, I also agree. It'd be stupid and selfish to start a family when one spouse is in the hole for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And if both partners want to start a family? I haven't even started school yet and we have a 9 month old. I completely respect your view on it, but I just don't see how my wife and I starting our family was a selfish move.

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[A Pre-dent]

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[Incis0r]

It makes a lot of sense for general dentists with a moderate amount of debt, but these loan forgiveness programs won't cut it for $500k. I think the best way to tackle a huge amount of debt would be to buy a practice with a lot of cash flow as soon as possible. In this situation, a high salary would be better than low salary + loan forgiveness because the principals HAVE to be cut down a lot faster than $30k/year, or whatever the forgiveness amount is. I'm no financial adviser though....

Mathematically, it's a fine approach, but now we're talking about being $800K+ in debt (assuming $300K for a practice) before even seeing the first patient. That's a very big burden to have.

 

[A Pre-dent]

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[hellofuturedentists]

And if both partners want to start a family? I haven't even started school yet and we have a 9 month old. I completely respect your view on it, but I just don't see how my wife and I starting our family was a selfish move.

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Edit: a pre-dent said it better again

Marriage is a compromise (which I'm sure you already know). I know I would work at least part time if my husband needed me to, and I hope he would do the same for me. That's basically what I meant. I really didn't mean to offend you or your family!