Should I list a 6th author pub without a LoR from PI

[sghos]

Let me lay out the situation.

Am a senior planning on applying right after graduation in June 2014. GPA: 3.85; 34 MCAT

I did research with a professor form September 2010-May 2011 & January 2012-Dec 2012 (including summer 2012).

I received a satisfactory grade(1st semester was Pass/Fail) the 1st semester, an A the second. 3rd semester with him I received a B. I thought about quitting but decided to stick it out since it would not look great if I quit after a B (there was simply a slow progression of research thus I got a B. It was a tough project). Stuck it out through summer and the rest of 2012, earning an A and was an author in a minor capacity on a pub for that project (6th, really low stuff).

At this point (Dec 2012) I decided to stop working in this lab since I felt I had gotten a feel for research but didn't want to really pursue it heavily in the future. Left on what I thought were cordial terms. Recently went back to ask prof whether he would be willing to write a LOR. Could tell he was not enthusiastic about it all.

Thing is, I cannot hide the fact that I did research since I took it for credit. At this point, it would be idiotic to ask for a LOR when he's indicating that he can't write me a strong one. It will also likely be my only research experience.

Other LOR sources: I will have 3 long term TA experiences (2 years) by the time I apply. One of them is with the head of my bio department, TA'd his 3000 level class after taking it soph year and knowing him since freshman year. Will TA it again. 1-2 letters from TAing.

1-2 other LoRs from cancer volunteering and from my volunteering with suicide hotline. Done both for 2.5 years before I apply

1 from a humanities prof.

I understand not having this letter would be a pretty big disadvantage at the top research heavy schools. But thats not my goal. I just want to get into A med school. How much will this hurt? I have to list it since its on my transcript but I would certainly not include it in my top 3 experiences. Am an NJ resident. More than happy with any MD school.




Sorry for the long read but my question is should I even list this 6th author pub if this PI gave me a B once and is very unlikely to give me a LoR? Should I just minimize research and not list it or would it be better to have something indicating that I did something and conributed to the project (ie this paper). Thoughts?

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[Ismet]

List the pub. The LOR isn't a necessity.

 

[inycepoo]

Overthinking. List the pub. Not all PIs who will mentor you well in research are always willing to write LORs. Med schools will understand this.

A pub puts you above the 90% of applicants (figure from LizzyM, as opposed to the SDN selection bias) who don't have one.

Don't think that 6th authors don't mean anything. I'm 4th and 5th on my only two pubs to date, but that's because literally everyone who has seniority over me (i.e., everyone besides senior authors) is put before me. Anything below 2nd author is viewed as the same; you wouldn't be there if you didn't make a substantial contribution of some sort, and if any adcom member cared enough (probably not), the paper would clearly say who did what and when.

 

[sghos]

List the pub. The LOR isn't a necessity.

K. I feel a bit screwed with that B one semester. I did get an A after that, got my name on that paper, but yeah feel somebody will be like "YO WAT UP WITH DAT B". We'll we will cross that bridge when we get to it i guess.

 

[inycepoo]

K. I feel a bit screwed with that B one semester. I did get an A after that, got my name on that paper, but yeah feel somebody will be like "YO WAT UP WITH DAT B". We'll we will cross that bridge when we get to it i guess.

Then you say "YO U NEVA MADE NO MISTAKE IN RESEARCH B4 DOE?"

Make sure it's in those exact words, perceived tone, and pronunciation.

 

[sghos]

Then you say "YO U NEVA MADE NO MISTAKE IN RESEARCH B4 DOE?"

Make sure it's in those exact words, perceived tone, and pronunciation.

Hahaha. Well it looks like the utility of having a pub is pretty high so I'll list it when I apply this upcoming June. I guess now I'm just freaking out over everything lol.

 

[sghos]

But yeah more thoughts certainly welcome. If LizzyM or other adcoms are around let me know whats up.

 

[Ismet]

K. I feel a bit screwed with that B one semester. I did get an A after that, got my name on that paper, but yeah feel somebody will be like "YO WAT UP WITH DAT B". We'll we will cross that bridge when we get to it i guess.

Adcoms will rarely look at individual grades. Waste of time. You're fine.

 

[sghos]

Adcoms will rarely look at individual grades. Waste of time. You're fine.

Thank you my man.

 

[Ismet]

Thank you my man.

I'm a girl. But you're welcome.

 

[487806]

Thank you my woman.

Fixed.

FYI, 6th author doesn't mean much but it's always good to list it. Individual grades don't matter as long as your overall GPA is good.

 

[sghos]

Fixed.

FYI, 6th author doesn't mean much but it's always good to list it. Individual grades don't matter as long as your overall GPA is good.

Yeah I know it doesn't mean much. I was just wondering whether putting it on there would raise even more questions. Looks like its worth it.

 

[Goro]

A bad LOR is a lethal for an app as an MCAT score of 5. It's no mean feat to be a co-author, even in the sixth position. As long as it's in PubMed, you don't have to worry about it

Let me lay out the situation.

Am a senior planning on applying right after graduation in June 2014. GPA: 3.85; 34 MCAT

I did research with a professor form September 2010-May 2011 & January 2012-Dec 2012 (including summer 2012).

I received a satisfactory grade(1st semester was Pass/Fail) the 1st semester, an A the second. 3rd semester with him I received a B. I thought about quitting but decided to stick it out since it would not look great if I quit after a B (there was simply a slow progression of research thus I got a B. It was a tough project). Stuck it out through summer and the rest of 2012, earning an A and was an author in a minor capacity on a pub for that project (6th, really low stuff).

At this point (Dec 2012) I decided to stop working in this lab since I felt I had gotten a feel for research but didn't want to really pursue it heavily in the future. Left on what I thought were cordial terms. Recently went back to ask prof whether he would be willing to write a LOR. Could tell he was not enthusiastic about it all.

Thing is, I cannot hide the fact that I did research since I took it for credit. At this point, it would be idiotic to ask for a LOR when he's indicating that he can't write me a strong one. It will also likely be my only research experience.

Other LOR sources: I will have 3 long term TA experiences (2 years) by the time I apply. One of them is with the head of my bio department, TA'd his 3000 level class after taking it soph year and knowing him since freshman year. Will TA it again. 1-2 letters from TAing.

1-2 other LoRs from cancer volunteering and from my volunteering with suicide hotline. Done both for 2.5 years before I apply

1 from a humanities prof.

I understand not having this letter would be a pretty big disadvantage at the top research heavy schools. But thats not my goal. I just want to get into A med school. How much will this hurt? I have to list it since its on my transcript but I would certainly not include it in my top 3 experiences. Am an NJ resident. More than happy with any MD school.




Sorry for the long read but my question is should I even list this 6th author pub if this PI gave me a B once and is very unlikely to give me a LoR? Should I just minimize research and not list it or would it be better to have something indicating that I did something and conributed to the project (ie this paper). Thoughts?

 

[inycepoo]

A bad LOR is a lethal for an app as an MCAT score of 5. It's no mean feat to be a co-author, even in the sixth position. As long as it's in PubMed, you don't have to worry about it

 

[Omppu27]

Overthinking. List the pub. Not all PIs who will mentor you well in research are always willing to write LORs. Med schools will understand this.

A pub puts you above the 90% of applicants (figure from LizzyM, as opposed to the SDN selection bias) who don't have one.

Don't think that 6th authors don't mean anything. I'm 4th and 5th on my only two pubs to date, but that's because literally everyone who has seniority over me (i.e., everyone besides senior authors) is put before me. Anything below 2nd author is viewed as the same; you wouldn't be there if you didn't make a substantial contribution of some sort, and if any adcom member cared enough (probably not), the paper would clearly say who did what and when.

Do you by any chance know the title to this thread or have a link to it? I believe you, just wanna see the thread.

 

[inycepoo]

Do you by any chance know the title to this thread or have a link to it? I believe you, just wanna see the thread.

It's in one of her Christmas special "Ask LizzyM anything" threads over every winter break (started in 2011) where she answers any question from SDN (no WAMCs, hypotheticals allowed).

She basically says that even at her private research university school, the percentage of applicants (and acceptees) who have pubs are always in the single digits, unlike what one might think based off of SDN.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=877440

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=972513

I'm too lazy to search the threads, but it's there.

 

[Omppu27]

It's in one of her Christmas special "Ask LizzyM anything" threads over every winter break (started in 2011) where she answers any question from SDN (no WAMCs, hypotheticals allowed).

She basically says that even at her private research university school, the percentage of applicants (and acceptees) who have pubs are always in the single digits, unlike what one might think based off of SDN.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=877440

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=972513

I'm too lazy to search the threads, but it's there.

Gracias

 

[sghos]

I understand not having the LoR may be a big negative at those top tier schools; would it be a huge deal at schools outside the top 20?

 

[487806]

I understand not having the LoR may be a big negative at those top tier schools; would it be a huge deal at schools outside the top 20?

Nope.

 

[sghos]

But not having that LoR probably really dings my chances (not great to begin with with only a 34 MCAT)? If so, OK, thats fair. Thats their mission and I don't have what they want.

 

[Ismet]

But not having that LoR probably really dings my chances (not great to begin with with only a 34 MCAT)? If so, OK, thats fair. Thats their mission and I don't have what they want.

You are an above average applicant in terms of your GPA and MCAT, as well as having a publication and significant research. You need to stop overthinking. You're slightly below average for tip top schools, but that doesn't mean they're completely out of reach. Research-heavy schools might notice your lack of PI LOR, but it's not like that will kill your chances, esp because you have a pub, which the majority of applicants, even those applying to research-focused schools, don't have. Yes pubs can be important and can really help your app, but SDN perpetuates this notion that pubs are more common than they actually are.

 

[sghos]

You are an above average applicant in terms of your GPA and MCAT, as well as having a publication and significant research. You need to stop overthinking. You're slightly below average for tip top schools, but that doesn't mean they're completely out of reach. Research-heavy schools might notice your lack of PI LOR, but it's not like that will kill your chances, esp because you have a pub, which the majority of applicants, even those applying to research-focused schools, don't have. Yes pubs can be important and can really help your app, but SDN perpetuates this notion that pubs are more common than they actually are.

I know you are not a bro but thanks bro.

 

[inycepoo]

I know you are not a bro but thanks bro.

Everyone's a bro

 

[sghos]

I think I PM'd LizzyM about this a while back but I think the thread gives a fuller accounting. I'd be interested to know her thoughts. Thanks in advance. @LizzyM

 

[Frazier]

To echo what I skimmed above, you should absolutely list your publication.

As you already know, not having a LOR from a PI might not help you at top schools...but, unless a particular school has a PI LOR requirement, it won't hurt you much either.

Congrats on your pub.

 

[inycepoo]

To echo what I skimmed above, you should absolutely list your publication.

As you already know, not having a LOR from a PI might not help you at top schools...but, unless a particular school has a PI LOR requirement, it won't hurt you much either.

Congrats on your pub.

Yeah this is one of those "SDN is bad for you" moments. Way too many self-selecting people on the site make it seem like every applicant, even those not gunning for all top tiers, has pubs. That's just not true.

Lots of people have presentations, abstracts, and other conference-y things, but rarely does an undergrad make it all the way to a pub (let alone multiple pubs) prior to application, even from Ivies and top research-heavy schools, even if the pub was part of a big group of people and therefore low, 5th/6th author. Undergrads get the short end of the stick in these situations; everyone knows that even med students who did just as much as you would get placed first most likely.

If you're on there, you've made a more than significant contribution to the project at whatever stage, which is better research experience than most (>90%) other applicants will have. It's not make or break, but definitely adds to the app and should therefore be listed.

 

[LizzyM]

List the paper. Only the most anal reviewers will notice that you don't have a LOR from your PI. If your focus is on medical practice, rather than getting into a research powerhouse with the goal of a career blending research & patient care, you should be fine.

 

[nemo123]

I applied this cycle with a publication, but without a LOR from my PI. My PI writes positive, yet lukewarm letters, so I decided not to use her letter. I instead asked a postdoc in the lab for his letter, and it doesn't seem to have effected me this cycle. I just got an acceptance to a top 20 and have had interviews at some of the other research powerhouses.

 

[sghos]

@LizzyM - I understand all adcoms are different and there is much variability in how applications are assessed. How closely do you look at individual grades? How much would that B stick out to you in the context of a ensuing A semester and a name (albeit in a lowly place) on the aforementioned pub?

 

[tantacles]

@LizzyM - I understand all adcoms are different and there is much variability in how applications are assessed. How closely do you look at individual grades? How much would that B stick out to you in the context of a ensuing A semester and a name (albeit in a lowly place) on the aforementioned pub?

B's don't stick out. Most individual grades aren't a huge deal.

I understand that this process is nerve-wracking, but realize that your application is above average in terms of MCAT and GPA, and the publication is just another booster. You can't change grades you've already received, so just try your best to do well in all of your future classes.

 

[sghos]

^Yea I feel you. But its odd to get that B in research you know? The PI just had high expectations. As he said, it wasn't personal. Now if he had only been upfront with me about all that....

 

[LizzyM]

Adcoms sometimes look at grades but they rarely do so when the GPA > 3.8. If an academic year comes in under 3.4, they may look to see if there was some horror (e.g. a C- or lower) or nothing lower than a B+ but almost all B+. A grade for research isn't even required for admission to it isn't likely to attract may eyeballs unlike Physics and O-chem which some adcom members scrutinize as predictors of success in medical school. (Not claiming any validity to that assumption, just that some adcoms claim a correlation.)

 

[sghos]

^Thanks for all the help. Truly appreciate it. Same goes for all the other folks who posted. Thanks.