Should I take the USMLE and COMLEX or just COMLEX???

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AmandaL444

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I think I'm going to want an internal medicine residency program. I'm required to take the COMLEX, being a D.O. medical student, but I'm wondering if it's too my benefit to take the USMLE to have more residency opportunities. Any thoughts???? :cool:

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I think I'm going to want an internal medicine residency program. I'm required to take the COMLEX, being a D.O. medical student, but I'm wondering if it's too my benefit to take the USMLE to have more residency opportunities. Any thoughts???? :cool:

You might want to post this in the med student forum instead of the pre-med forum.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=697319 this thread may be useful.
 
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I think I'm going to want an internal medicine residency program. I'm required to take the COMLEX, being a D.O. medical student, but I'm wondering if it's too my benefit to take the USMLE to have more residency opportunities. Any thoughts???? :cool:

Multiple considerations appear with this question that's probably been debated ad nauseum in other links.....but since you asked...

Pros:
1) It gives the programs the same yardstick to measure you against allopathic candidates.
2) It's a better test than the COMLEX and rumor is that some D.O. programs use it to get a more realistic idea of the applicants medical knowledge. Good or bad, that's the rumor.
3) You'll definitely know where you stand vs. your allopathic colleagues in terms of your knowledge of medicine.
4) Some allopathic programs use it as a screening tool and won't even give you a clerkship opportunity if you don't have it.

Cons:

1) They are two ENTIRELY different exams. Studying for the COMLEX is not a matter of throwing OMM on top of USMLE studying, so don't try it.
2) If you fail the USMLE, I believe you MUST report it. If you don't, bad juju happens.
3) It's another $500 or so to take it and there are a bunch of D.O. friendly IM programs out there.
4) We were advised that unless you're absolutely sure you can knock it out of the park, don't take it. Turned out to be advice that changed depending on when you asked the administrator who gave out that advice, but that's another story.

Overall, I would say to call the programs you're thinking about and ask if they need the USMLE or if COMLEX will be enough. That should influence you one way or the other. Remember also that your tastes may/will change as you go through third year and by taking it, you keep your options open.

Be prepared to spend about 3 or 4 months studying for the exam.....looking back now, I stressed way too much over whether or not to take it, studied completely wrong for the COMLEX (or USMLE for that matter) but still got a score I'm ok with....

Remember also that this advice and $1.00 will get you a coke out of the snack machine....

Good luck....
 
Two docs at Nova just had a discussion about this and posted the whole thing on youtube. I thought I remembered someone saying that it was sent to you folks at Bradenton as well. Here's the first link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ruTPdadR0I&feature=related

you can find the subsequent links on the related bar on the side of the page. Well worth listening to as a DO as far as I'm concerned.
 
Cons:

1) They are two ENTIRELY different exams. Studying for the COMLEX is not a matter of throwing OMM on top of USMLE studying, so don't try it.

Do try it because it works. Everyone I know only studied for the USMLE, took it, then threw in some omm study for one to two days and scored over the standard deviation on both. I will agree that they are two entirely different exams, with the usmle being much harder with 2nd and 3rd order questions, the comlex requires you to regurg facts. If you know the material well enough to apply it to a 3rd order question, coming up with the facts is easy.
 
I think I'm going to want an internal medicine residency program. I'm required to take the COMLEX, being a D.O. medical student, but I'm wondering if it's too my benefit to take the USMLE to have more residency opportunities. Any thoughts???? :cool:

It comes down to a few things:

First and foremost, are you planning on applying to ACGME residency programs? (im gonna assume it is a yes)

Second, what kind of a student are you? Are you top ten in the class? Are you at the bottom half of the class?

Third, how are you at standardized test taking?



So if you are in the top of the class you probably will do fine on it so it would behoove you to take it and expand the number of programs you can apply to and realistically match to.

Are you a good standardized test taker? If you consistently test higher than your grades, again, you may want to take it.

Are you in the bottom half of the class but think you can do well on it? Doing well on it will bring you from a questionable allo match to a sure thing match.

So if you are smack-dab in the middle of the class you really have a decision to make. Doing poorly will shoot yourself in the foot but doing well will open doors.

Another option is to take USMLE step 2 after 3rd year without taking step 1 (apparently according to the NSU video you can do that).
 
Yeah, I have a few friends in our 3rd year class that decided not to take Step1 but are planning on taking step 2.
 
I just finished interviews, some MD places require it, most don't. no one I can recall used the conversion score nor understood what a comlex is. if you cross over into the MD route, it's a good idea to take it. it's their residency and that's their exam, so be it. no one ever asked me about my comlex score, I only took step 2 and they were happy with it. (I am not sure why but only taking step 2 seemed to be a hidden secret with other students)

if your grades are good and do well on the prac comlex then take step 1,2
if your average, only take step 2
if your scores blow, don't take it at all

the last thing you want to do is tank the score that they understand the most! take a practice usmle and see how you do, go from there. ask dr breznak, he can guess how you'll do based on that
 
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the last thing you want to do is tank the score that they understand the most! take a practice usmle and see how you do, go from there. ask dr breznak, he can guess how you'll do based on that

:thumbup: Best advice. This thread can be closed now.
 
Do try it because it works. Everyone I know only studied for the USMLE, took it, then threw in some omm study for one to two days and scored over the standard deviation on both. I will agree that they are two entirely different exams, with the usmle being much harder with 2nd and 3rd order questions, the comlex requires you to regurg facts. If you know the material well enough to apply it to a 3rd order question, coming up with the facts is easy.

This was kind of my experience with Step 1. I took both COMLEX and USMLE and all my Step 1 studying done using USMLE material (including USMLE question bank), with some OMM review in between tests and didn't hurt me at all when I took the COMLEX, ended up in mid 600's.
 
Two docs at Nova just had a discussion about this and posted the whole thing on youtube. I thought I remembered someone saying that it was sent to you folks at Bradenton as well. Here's the first link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ruTPdadR0I&feature=related

you can find the subsequent links on the related bar on the side of the page. Well worth listening to as a DO as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the link. Interesting. My school told us there's no value in talking the USMLE Step II. Sounds like they advise otherwise.
 
I just finished interviews, some MD places require it, most don't. no one I can recall used the conversion score nor understood what a comlex is....

I got a little confused by this. It sounds as if most of the places where you interviewed did not require the USMLE and are happy accepting just the COMLEX; however, you can't recall anyone who knew what a COMLEX was or used the conversion score? Is that referring solely to the 'USMLE-only' allo residencies where you interviewed? Please excuse my ignorance, I am totally uneducated on all of this...can you explain this to me in layman's? Thanks :)
 
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I got a little confused by this. It sounds as if most of the places where you interviewed did not require the USMLE and are happy accepting just the COMLEX; however, you can't recall anyone who knew what a COMLEX was or used the conversion score? Is that referring solely to the 'USMLE-only' allo residencies where you interviewed? Please excuse my ignorance, I am totally uneducated on all of this...can you explain this to me in layman's? Thanks :)
sorry, I if I screwed up that whole paragraph. during my allo experience, only 1 place required both usmle step I and II so I didn't interview there. the places that I did go to, stated to me they didn't know/or looked at the comlex score but were happy that I took usmle step II because it let them know where I stood against the MD students. I asked about the conversion score, they heard of it but won't/don't use it. I've often heard the mass rumor that the conversion score is the USMLE without the OMM but that's dead wrong. they are 2 separate exams with the largest diff in step I and smallest in step 3. on the other hand I am sure there's gotta be allo places that solely will use the conversion score. hope that helps
 
sorry, I if I screwed up that whole paragraph. during my allo experience, only 1 place required both usmle step I and II so I didn't interview there. the places that I did go to, stated to me they didn't know/or looked at the comlex score but were happy that I took usmle step II because it let them know where I stood against the MD students. I asked about the conversion score, they heard of it but won't/don't use it. I've often heard the mass rumor that the conversion score is the USMLE without the OMM but that's dead wrong. they are 2 separate exams with the largest diff in step I and smallest in step 3. on the other hand I am sure there's gotta be allo places that solely will use the conversion score. hope that helps


Thanks for the clarification. It sounds like the allo places where you interviewed (that were ok with you not having took the USMLE Step I) did, however, "require" a USMLE Step II...right? Or they were just "happy" to have an extra criterion to use in your evaluation, especially for comparison to the other (majority MD) applicants? If you didn't take any USMLE exams, I don't see how they would compare us as DO students to the MD applicants when they don't know what the COMLEX is/how to interpret the score. Aren't board scores the biggest criteria in residency acceptance? I am assuming, (from my feeble understanding), that for these particular allo residencies that do not require USMLE yet do not use/understand the COMLEX, just do without a board score in deciding on your interview/acceptance to their program...? In which case, they're only going by your grades, rotation evals, ECs, etc...? That seems far too good to be true, too easy...where am I going wrong here in my understanding? Thanks for your help (and patience) :)
 
Thanks for the clarification. It sounds like the allo places where you interviewed (that were ok with you not having took the USMLE Step I) did, however, "require" a USMLE Step II...right? Or they were just "happy" to have an extra criterion to use in your evaluation, especially for comparison to the other (majority MD) applicants? If you didn't take any USMLE exams, I don't see how they would compare us as DO students to the MD applicants when they don't know what the COMLEX is/how to interpret the score. Aren't board scores the biggest criteria in residency acceptance? I am assuming, (from my feeble understanding), that for these particular allo residencies that do not require USMLE yet do not use/understand the COMLEX, just do without a board score in deciding on your interview/acceptance to their program...? In which case, they're only going by your grades, rotation evals, ECs, etc...? That seems far too good to be true, too easy...where am I going wrong here in my understanding? Thanks for your help (and patience) :)
no one required step II, I just took it to let them have an equal academic evaluation and they were happy about it. you're right, it is hard to evaluate our comlex score against MD students. I have friends who are directors that have said their criteria for DO's is simple, no usmle = no interview.
if you get an interview without taking the usmle, they either saw something that sparked their interest on your app, know what the numbers mean on a comlex, great statement, had good previous results with DO's...etc. there's plenty of reasons why you do/don't get an interview. I've filled in on an interview committee before and it's pretty random thinking. I think if you're going into an allo residency, you should take usmle, it's their standard.

board scores/grades/rotation score is not everything but it's a huge part of getting an interview....mainly b/c that's a large amount of your background. the traditional applicant for residency is a 25-26 yo, straight through school. maybe a paper or two, some research, small job. a non trad may have a larger/diverse background with a larger CV and that could negate lower (not ****ty) grades/scores. once you get the interview, from there it's all personality.
 
I didnt bother to read the thread. You should always, always take USMLE Step 1. You dont necessarily have to take 2 but going back to take 1 makes things veeeery difficult. I recommend studying for the USMLE and then taking both. Trust me, you will do fine on the CRAPLEX
 
no one required step II, I just took it to let them have an equal academic evaluation and they were happy about it. you're right, it is hard to evaluate our comlex score against MD students. I have friends who are directors that have said their criteria for DO's is simple, no usmle = no interview.
if you get an interview without taking the usmle, they either saw something that sparked their interest on your app, know what the numbers mean on a comlex, great statement, had good previous results with DO's...etc. there's plenty of reasons why you do/don't get an interview. I've filled in on an interview committee before and it's pretty random thinking. I think if you're going into an allo residency, you should take usmle, it's their standard.

board scores/grades/rotation score is not everything but it's a huge part of getting an interview....mainly b/c that's a large amount of your background. the traditional applicant for residency is a 25-26 yo, straight through school. maybe a paper or two, some research, small job. a non trad may have a larger/diverse background with a larger CV and that could negate lower (not ****ty) grades/scores. once you get the interview, from there it's all personality.


Thank you! That answers all of my questions...and is also what I wanted to hear. It's really all about what you put in (and the resulting grades/scores/evals that come out) and how well you come across and articulate your personality--I think they may be right when they say your biggest 'acceptance hurdle' is getting into medical school in the first place. I am not setting myself up with a piece-of-cake-residency-obtainment kind of mentality, but I am not as scared or worried as I was before. :)
 
Do D.O. schools prepare you equally well for USMLE?
good question, all our books are all USMLE study type guides so in that sense, yes it does. I am PBL trained, and we did not emphasize histo, embryo as much as the USMLE but definitely more anatomy/OMM. our exams are banks from the books like robbins, guyton...etc. we also take NBME shelf exams (which are USMLE style).
 
Most DO schools don't prepare their students very well for embryo or genetics. It was stated by the two docs in the youtube clips that were floating around here a few weeks ago. They were both DOs and program directors that came to speak to some students down at NOVA.

As far as the USMLE goes, I'm taking it. But I'm studying my freaking ass off for it, and I plan on rocking its world before I destroy the COMLEX. Should everyone take it? No. If you didnt do well in classes, odds are, you won't do well on the USMLE. Plain and simple. Can it be done? Absolutely. But you are going to have to put countless hours and give up going to lots and lots of social events your 4th semester to make up for what you didn't know or didn't do very well on in the first 3 semesters. If you are going into FP, you probably don't need to take the USMLE. ROAD specialties, ortho surgery and even EM at some of the more competitive places... maybe. You either have 0 chances of matching allo as an osteopathic physician, or taking (and doing very well) on the USMLE is the only thing that will get you in the door for even an interview. Its been talked about (with n's = 1 mind you) alot on these boards that someone they knew did it. Cool. Its the exception, NOT the rule. Keep that in mind.

With that said, if you want something, don't rest until you've achieved it. If you want to match allo derm, by all means, get your books together and buy you some question banks, and get at it. Don't let me or anyone else tell you it can't be done. At some point you'll have to be reasonable, but by all means, if you're not going to be happy until you get into ophtho surgery, GO FOR IT. Because at the end of the day, you have to do what makes you happy. Do a transitional year at the program that you really want to get into if you don't get in the first time around. Apply again, and again until you get what you want. I know loans will be piling up, and while it may not be the best financial decision, if you can see your goal and you know that it will make you happy to get it, then don't stop until you do. You have to be happy to go to work and not get burned out, so even if you have the debt, if you're happy, you'll make it work, somehow.
 
I know this topic has been discussed in depth, but I can't remember what forum it was posted in. try the search feature. I think I posted something about it last week....feel free to PM
 
I took both the USMLE and COMLEX. For me, it came down to the fact that I wasn't sure what I wanted to go in to and I didn't want to close any doors and I figured I could do well on the USMLE. If you know you're doing an ACGME primary care residency most of those programs don't require the USMLE, but the more competitive ones do. I ended up going into family medicine, but I was still glad I took it. I scored well on it and it surely helped when they were comparing me academically to other MD students. I had them mention a couple times that they were impressed that I went out of my way to take it. I also found out that one of the programs I loved required the USMLE from D.O. students so you never know.
If you feel like you can do well on it I would take it. If you don't do well you certainly don't have to report that to programs. During residency application you specifically have to give permission for them to send your USMLE transcript.
Regarding the similarities between the two tests, I'd say they are definitely two different tests. The format of questions is a lot different, but in the end they both test the same thing, medical knowledge, so if you can do well on one you should be able to do well on the other.
For step I, I studied only for the USMLE and did only USMLE question banks then sudied the OMM green book a few days before the COMLEX. I did good on the COMLEX, but ended up doing better on the USMLE. I only wish I would have done some COMLEX question banks to get used to the question format of COMLEX. For step II I used COMLEX question banks and did better.
In conclusion, my opinion is that taking the USMLE isn't going to hurt you as long as you prepare for it well, but it sure can come in handy if you decide to do an ACGME residency.
 
If you don't do well you certainly don't have to report that to programs. During residency application you specifically have to give permission for them to send your USMLE transcript.

Not true. Beginning this past application year (for residencies starting 2010), if you take the USMLE and apply to ACGME residencies, you MUST release your USMLE score. This from the ERAS website. So be very careful if you choose to take the USMLE. If you do very well it looks great. If you don't do well (or even fail) it looks far far worse than not taking it at all.
 
Am finishing up pulmonary-critical care fellowship, did my internal medicine residency at an ACGME program, served as a 4th year chief, all without taking USMLE's.
 
OK everyone has their own opinion and I respect that. But to this post I have added my opinions. I have taken both USMLE step one and 2 and Comlex step one and 2 and did well on all tests. I have been through the interview process and now an Intern. So just take my opinion for what its worth and remember this is just my opinion from my experiences.


Multiple considerations appear with this question that's probably been debated ad nauseum in other links.....but since you asked...

Pros:
1) It gives the programs the same yardstick to measure you against allopathic candidates. (True I agree to an extent... If you are applying to places that have a long history or DOs in their program they know how to compare the comlex and USMLE. If you want to go to a high powered big university program then USMLE would be worth taking or if you are applying to a residency in the south. For some reason on my inteviews I noticed the residency programs I went to in the south seemed to like the fact that I took both but I found the farther north I traveled the less it was a factor (and yes that is a generalization but a good rule of thumb to consider.))
2) It's a better test than the COMLEX and rumor is that some D.O. programs use it to get a more realistic idea of the applicants medical knowledge. Good or bad, that's the rumor. (Yes it is a better test and by that I mean is that it is better written other than that the material is the same just presented differently)
3) You'll definitely know where you stand vs. your allopathic colleagues in terms of your knowledge of medicine. (Maybe, if you want to know for sure where you stand do an AI at an allopathic program as well as a few other rotations, if possible at different programs. I found that a far better way than just looking at my scores).
4) Some allopathic programs use it as a screening tool and won't even give you a clerkship opportunity if you don't have it. (True I have seen some programs that wanted to see your score before giving you a rotation. But if you call some of these you can see if they will accept comlex (not all of them). They make their rotation applications with MDs in mind not DOs)

Cons:

1) They are two ENTIRELY different exams. Studying for the COMLEX is not a matter of throwing OMM on top of USMLE studying, so don't try it. (False, The only thing that is different is that there are more statistic questions and a more molecular biology questions and if you remember DOs do have molecular biology in the curicullum. DO school is not a dumbed down MD school we do use the exact same books in the basic sciences for the most part in years one and 2)
2) If you fail the USMLE, I believe you MUST report it. If you don't, bad juju happens.(never looked into this but I know I had a choice whether or not I wanted to report my scores but I did not fail so I can not comment on that)
3) It's another $500 or so to take it and there are a bunch of D.O. friendly IM programs out there. (Very true but refer back to point # 1 in the Pros section above)
4) We were advised that unless you're absolutely sure you can knock it out of the park, don't take it. Turned out to be advice that changed depending on when you asked the administrator who gave out that advice, but that's another story. (My comment on this is dont you try and knock every test out of the park? This is a statement that runs rampent around DO schools. I always hear if you do bad on it you will only hurt yourself. Well that is true but if you do bad on the COMLEX you also will hurt yourself. So this is up to you to decide.)

Overall, I would say to call the programs you're thinking about and ask if they need the USMLE or if COMLEX will be enough. That should influence you one way or the other. Remember also that your tastes may/will change as you go through third year and by taking it, you keep your options open.

Be prepared to spend about 3 or 4 months studying for the exam.....looking back now, I stressed way too much over whether or not to take it, studied completely wrong for the COMLEX (or USMLE for that matter) but still got a score I'm ok with....

Remember also that this advice and $1.00 will get you a coke out of the snack machine....

Good luck....
 
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Two docs at Nova just had a discussion about this and posted the whole thing on youtube. I thought I remembered someone saying that it was sent to you folks at Bradenton as well. Here's the first link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ruTPdadR0I&feature=related

you can find the subsequent links on the related bar on the side of the page. Well worth listening to as a DO as far as I'm concerned.


Sorry to revive an old thread but this youtube video link no longer works... does anyone know where I can find this video????
 
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M2 and I anticipate struggling with the basic sciences this year as I did last year. I plan on prepping with USMLE material and taking the the practice tests, but will probably take the COMLEX I only (bc its supposedly easier first order questions) unless my practice exams indicate otherwise. Can't comment on step 2 yet.
 
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