Should Teachers Be Required to Curve?

[MDman87]

So if the class average on a test is 69%, shouldn't the teacher be obligated to curve the grades? No joke, the class averaged a 69 on the first test in this class. You'd think the guy would realize that his tests were too difficult and offer a bit of leniency, but instead he seems intent on being an a**

BTW, this is an upper-level science class. A large percentage of the class has already been accepted to med school. So it's not like it's a class full of *****s. The test was just impossibly hard. The university won't allow the class to average a D, will they?

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[236116]

So if the class average on a test is 69%, shouldn't the teacher be obligated to curve the grades? No joke, the class averaged a 69 on the first test in this class. You'd think the guy would realize that his tests were too difficult and offer a bit of leniency, but instead he seems intent on being an a**

BTW, this is an upper-level science class. A large percentage of the class has already been accepted to med school. So it's not like it's a class full of *****s. The test was just impossibly hard. The university won't allow the class to average a D, will they?

No, clearly your class is too stupid to do well. Regardless of the "difficulty" or that the instructor is an "as s."

Curves are ridiculous and serve 2 purposes: to assuage the admin's distress over how high they score; and to mollycoddle whiny students who don't know how to suck it up.

I'd sure as hell let the class average a D and tenure the instructor like whoa.

 

[DrYoda]

Perhaps some of the students should drop.

 

[littlealex]

I'm inclined to agree with above.
There are hard classes everywhere. I'd venture to guess that despite class average being 69%, there are students in the class getting A's straight up, and they aren't the ones complaining.

One of my favorite class in undergrad had this problem. People were endlessly complaining about how the exams were too difficult, the material impossible to master, and the professor is unable to teach anything.

Turns out the problems solved themselves once 60% of the class dropped. The professor and the class turned out to be amongst the best I've experienced.

 

[mmmcdowe]

A 69 isn't that bad of an average. That's what about most of my upper level science classes were, with the really hard ones being around a 55-60. It was the first test, people will figure it out and I bet you the average will be a lot higher next time. The more important question is what is an A? A 90 was an A for me. Careful by the way, some people might call you a troll.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

So if the class average on a test is 69%, shouldn't the teacher be obligated to curve the grades? No joke, the class averaged a 69 on the first test in this class. You'd think the guy would realize that his tests were too difficult and offer a bit of leniency, but instead he seems intent on being an a**

BTW, this is an upper-level science class. A large percentage of the class has already been accepted to med school. So it's not like it's a class full of *****s. The test was just impossibly hard. The university won't allow the class to average a D, will they?

The only situation where this sort of thing is appropriate is if the class average is truly atrocious. I've been in chemistry classes where the class average is 20-30% and even the high scorers end up in the 70% range or so. There, some curving is realistic because even the high scorers are going to be getting Cs otherwise.

Heck, your class averaged 69% on an exam? That seems like par for the course, perhaps even a bit generous. Hasn't this ever happened in a class you've been in before?

 

[armybound]

if C = average, your professor shouldn't curve at all. that score is perfectly average.

 

[MilkmanAl]

A 69 is a bad average? that's only about 3% lower than what most of my professors aimed for when making tests. Some tests are harder than others, and your professors don't owe you good grades. Get over it.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I wish they were required. For an upper level science class, I think the test averages should usually be mid to upper 70s, but **** happens.

And of course, you should expect lots of posts from people telling you how lucky you are that your test average is so high....its sdn, anything for an egoboost

 

[Evergrey]

A 69% is failing at my school, the teachers would be obligated to curve it a little bit.

 

[MilkmanAl]

And of course, you should expect lots of posts from people telling you how lucky you are that your test average is so high....its sdn, anything for an egoboost

I'm used to classes with averages in the 40's and 50's, so you're not going to get much sympathy from me. They were curved, granted, but was mostly in the "almost everything is a C" sense. That is, it was hard to fail, but it was REALLY hard to get an A.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

No, clearly your class is too stupid to do well. Regardless of the "difficulty" or that the instructor is an "as s."

Curves are ridiculous and serve 2 purposes: to assuage the admin's distress over how high they score; and to mollycoddle whiny students who don't know how to suck it up.

I'd sure as hell let the class average a D and tenure the instructor like whoa.

That's an oversimplification. I've taken classes where the test averages were consistently 50%; the professor designed the test level to yield that average and produce a wider spectrum of scores which he could more easily stratify into letter grades.

 

[MDman87]

Nevermind. Nevermind the entire thread. Apparently I've got it easy - very easy - compared to the rest of the world. For the record, it's a small class of about 20, and we all know each other. The highest grade in the class was an 82. I made a 74. Now, in my mind, if a B average or better is required for acceptance to medical school, then no one from this class is qualified. 4 people in the class have been accepted to Top 20 schools, and most of the rest at least have an acceptance to an in-state school; this indicates to me that the test may have been a bit unreasonable. Obviously, I am mistaken, especially considering my inferior intellect(judging by all of your reactions).

So yes, I'm going to suck it up. Yes, I'm going to study harder (if that's possible). Yes, I'm going to figure the class out and improve my grade. And yes, I'm going to stop whining. . . just as soon as I'm finished with this post. I just thought an average like that in a class full of hard-working, relatively smart students is a bit ridiculous

I am not trolling, BTW. I'm being serious. And I'm just a little concerned because I know what a C would do to my GPA. He posted the test grade on the same day as the drop date (also ridiculous), so that's no longer an option

 

[scg]

You seem to imply that since many of your classmates have already gotten into medical school, they are smart. And since they are smart and still average a 69, the test is too hard.

I just wanted to point out that a lot of people stop trying so hard to maintain high grades after they have already gotten into medical school.

 

[bluesmd]

i agree 69 isn't that low .. i have had classes where averages are 55.

 

[Med Addict]

Its not unheard of, but for future reference, ratemyprofessors.com may come in handy when selecting classes.

 

[MDman87]

I just wanted to point out that a lot of people stop trying so hard to maintain high grades after they have already gotten into medical school

Good point

 

[boggvir]

That average is fine. I was on the ****ty end of 40 average Tests a bunch of times early on. It's not the professor's fault if we're stupid. I've found that when I went back and looked at the Tests I was really pissed about, very few of them were actually unfair. Rather, it was just me not studying something I should have.

 

[kac714]

no professors in my major curved. we just dealt with it.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Lol...looks like I was 100% right.

 

[savant]

No, clearly your class is too stupid to do well. Regardless of the "difficulty" or that the instructor is an "as s."

Curves are ridiculous and serve 2 purposes: to assuage the admin's distress over how high they score; and to mollycoddle whiny students who don't know how to suck it up.

I'd sure as hell let the class average a D and tenure the instructor like whoa.

I like you <3

 

[cbrons]

No, clearly your class is too stupid to do well. Regardless of the "difficulty" or that the instructor is an "as s."

If you have a class of 500 students and the class average on an exam is 60% or below, that (statistically) indicates a problem at the level of instruction.

 

[236116]

I like you <3

I like people who like me. <3

If you have a class of 500 students and the class average on an exam is 60% or below, that (statistically) indicates a problem at the level of instruction.

But not IRL, bb.

 

[cbrons]

It's not the professor's fault if we're stupid.

A 40% average for the class means the instructor is ****ty. Think about it, you have 50 or so students in a class, some of them will be straight-A students, some will be average to slightly above averge, some C students, etc. For pre-req classes, such as Organic Chemistry, you don't exactly get your average drunk 5 day a week **** head. There is a good chance you have a lot of above average students in the class with a proven record of excellent academic performance. IF the instructor is handing out exams and getting a mean score of 40% each time, you are going to turn around and conclude that even the honors students (for the past 3 years) decided to just slack off all of the sudden?

 

[Forthegood]

Cbrons: No, that doesn't indicate a problem with instruction.

I've taught 4 courses now over the past 3 years at a major public research university.

Teachers shouldn't HAVE to curve. Things are not so simple.

I curve depending on what i find are NATURAL cutoffs. So if there is a natural gap between 88+ students and 86- students, then I'll say 87+ gets an A etc. That doesn't effect the B students, but only A students. So a student with an 78 may still get a C... it just depends on the cutoff. I have tried multiple ways of grading, and I find this the most fair way. Of course 90+ is always an A regardless and etc for bs 80+, Cs 70+ and on.

But I have seen whole classes where the students were not engaged and didn't learn a thing. It is a harsh reality, but not all classes perform well, and not all groups of students are equal in ambition OR INTELLIGENCE.

As a student, you want to always say how unfair the system is. But after teaching for a while, you see that if the average was a 69%, maybe the students REALLY DID NOT learn what was required. Sure, it may be partially the teachers fault, but this is not elementary school. You have to learn this stuff on your own. If I thoroughly taught every aspect for every exam, my lectures would be 6 hours a day, every day. College/medschool/gradschool alike, eventually you are going to have to take personal responsibility for YOUR intelligence and work.

 

[MedMan25]

So if the class average on a test is 69%, shouldn't the teacher be obligated to curve the grades? No joke, the class averaged a 69 on the first test in this class. You'd think the guy would realize that his tests were too difficult and offer a bit of leniency, but instead he seems intent on being an a**

BTW, this is an upper-level science class. A large percentage of the class has already been accepted to med school. So it's not like it's a class full of *****s. The test was just impossibly hard. The university won't allow the class to average a D, will they?

I had lots of upper division sciences in undergrad where the class average was in the 60's. Maybe our instructors were tougher than at other institutions but I have just assumed it the same elsewhere.

 

[Forthegood]

Oh, and if something is truely fishy, like the material was not FAIR (not in lectures/book), that is why God created the academic ombud.

 

[MedMan25]

Now, in my mind, if a B average or better is required for acceptance to medical school, then no one from this class is qualified.

Someone with an excellent GPA may take one class and get a C, this doesn't mean its because the class was unfair, it only means some classes are harder than others. That's why people with Cs on their transcript still sometimes make it into medical school (like myself )

 

[Bacchus]

If you have a class of 500 students and the class average on an exam is 60% or below, that (statistically) indicates a problem at the level of instruction.

I'll agree with you on this. The testing is an assessment of what your studying and the teacher's instruction has helped you learn. The teacher should write exams that reflect this. Thus, a C should be the midpoint. Horrible averages show either a complete lack of preparation by the majority of the students (unlikely), an unfair exam, or inadequate instruction of the material.

Professors, imo, should write exams that get a class average of C. I don't see the point in writing exams that get lower. If you're going to curve, why not write an exam in which you won't have to? Students will still study the material and learn it.

 

[Bacchus]

I'll agree with you on this. The testing is an assessment of what your studying and the teacher's instruction has helped you learn. The teacher should write exams that reflect this. Thus, a C should be the midpoint. Horrible averages show either a complete lack of preparation by the majority of the students (unlikely), an unfair exam, or inadequate instruction of the material.

Professors, imo, should write exams that get a class average of C. I don't see the point in writing exams that get lower. If you're going to curve, why not write an exam in which you won't have to? Students will still study the material and learn it.

Also, this whole curving phenomenon is foreign to me... our exams usually have a C average. The most anything has been curved has been possibly 2-3 points and it doesn't happen often.

 

[236116]

Also, this whole curving phenomenon is foreign to me... our exams usually have a C average. The most anything has been curved has been possibly 2-3 points and it doesn't happen often.

Same here, and I think I've had one test that was curved... ever.

 

[cbrons]

Cbrons: No, that doesn't indicate a problem with instruction.

I've taught 4 courses now over the past 3 years at a major public research university.

Teachers shouldn't HAVE to curve. Things are not so simple.

I curve depending on what i find are NATURAL cutoffs. So if there is a natural gap between 88+ students and 86- students, then I'll say 87+ gets an A etc. That doesn't effect the B students, but only A students. So a student with an 78 may still get a C... it just depends on the cutoff. I have tried multiple ways of grading, and I find this the most fair way. Of course 90+ is always an A regardless and etc for bs 80+, Cs 70+ and on.

But I have seen whole classes where the students were not engaged and didn't learn a thing. It is a harsh reality, but not all classes perform well, and not all groups of students are equal in ambition OR INTELLIGENCE.

As a student, you want to always say how unfair the system is. But after teaching for a while, you see that if the average was a 69%, maybe the students REALLY DID NOT learn what was required. Sure, it may be partially the teachers fault, but this is not elementary school. You have to learn this stuff on your own. If I thoroughly taught every aspect for every exam, my lectures would be 6 hours a day, every day. College/medschool/gradschool alike, eventually you are going to have to take personal responsibility for YOUR intelligence and work.

I'm not saying its unfair. And I'm not saying teachers should be required to curve. But a 40% average on a test in a class (ave. pre-req class here) of about 250 students means the instructor isn't teaching the material well or is expecting far more than is reasonable. Sure not all students are equal but when you have the tried and true senior who went straight As the past 7 semester and can't pull above a C on the exams, unless that individual got ahead by sleeping with all the instructors, there is clearly something amiss with the teaching.

Now of course certain classes are just plain hard. Organic chemistry is one of them. It would be dumb to expect an average of 70% on all exams in that class if the tests actually cover the material but when you have an extreme skew (40% averages in an intro to zoology course) then its probably not the students.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

If the scores in a class are so low that everyone is failing, or barely passing, then the grades should be curved. With an average so low its obvious that 1) the teacher can not teach and should be fired or 2) he needs to curve it because he made the test too hard. The odds of you getting an entire class of *****s (unless its a CC) is pretty dam low.

 

[236116]

If the scores in a class are so low that everyone is failing, or barely passing, then the grades should be curved. With an average so low its obvious that 1) the teacher can not teach and should be fired or 2) he needs to curve it because he made the test too hard. The odds of you getting an entire class of *****s (unless its a CC) is pretty dam low.

The only thing that's obvious is that the class isn't doing their jobs. An average means there's probably people scored above that.

Look, [deleted so I don't violate ToS], stop shi tting on CCs, okay? Yeah, some of the kids there don't want to be and are only there b/c their parents make them go. Some of them can't afford even state tuition for 4 years and do an artic to get there after 2. Some are allied health kids.

SO DO ME A FAVOUR, PRE ALLO, AND STOP TALKING ABOUT CC'S LIKE THEY'RE THE HIDEAWAY HOME FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN'T HACK IT.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Also, this whole curving phenomenon is foreign to me... our exams usually have a C average. The most anything has been curved has been possibly 2-3 points and it doesn't happen often.

Its fine not to curve if the average is a C. I've had several organic tests where the average is in the 40's, had the test not been curved about 80-90% of the class would have failed. Thats either poor teaching, or the test was too difficult. They basically have to curve or they'd be stuck with a back log of 1000's of kids trying to get through the few organic classes they offer each semester.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

The only thing that's obvious is that the class isn't doing their jobs. An average means there's probably people scored above that.

Look, [deleted so I don't violate ToS], stop shi tting on CCs, okay? Yeah, some of the kids there don't want to be and are only there b/c their parents make them go. Some of them can't afford even state tuition for 4 years and do an artic to get there after 2. Some are allied health kids.

SO DO ME A FAVOUR, PRE ALLO, AND STOP TALKING ABOUT CC'S LIKE THEY'RE THE HIDEAWAY HOME FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN'T HACK IT.

Lol, did you go to a CC? Little sensitive. I was just ****in with people. I have tons of friends that go to CC's and I mess with them all the time too. Except they usually find it funny.

And yes, if a class is averaging a C then there should be no curve. But a class average in the 40's with only 5-10 out of 200 kids scoring in the 80-90% range, needs a curve. Schools were not created to only get through the smartest of the smartest. Even average students should be able to make it through the class.

And i'm not arguing for myself, i've never had a problem with any course. But i do know a lot of people who would have been completely f-ed without them.

 

[236116]

And yes, if a class is averaging a C then there should be no curve. But a class average in the 40's with only 5-10 out of 200 kids scoring in the 80-90% range, needs a curve. Schools were not created to only get through the smartest of the smartest. Even average students should be able to make it through the class.

Uh, doesn't that completely go against the theory of weed-out courses? What about stratification? Otherwise everything'd be a 100-level.

Aw, do you have gay friends too? who laugh when you make slurs? Regardless of my academic resume, SDN is a bigger cred ***** than Wash U and they're stuck in a '73 mentality about community colleges.

 

[HiFi09]

Everyday that goes by I feel like the kids posting on sdn get more and more obnoxious.

To answer the OP's question, yes the professor should be required to curve in these kinds of situations.

 

[fizzle]

There are a lot of cool people in this thread.

I just dropped into this topic so I could be cool too

Am I cool yet?

 

[236116]

I just dropped into this topic so I could be cool too

Am I cool yet?

Ice, baby.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Uh, doesn't that completely go against the theory of weed-out courses? What about stratification? Otherwise everything'd be a 100-level.

Aw, do you have gay friends too? who laugh when you make slurs? Regardless of my academic resume, SDN is a bigger cred ***** than Wash U and they're stuck in a '73 mentality about community colleges.

By your logic i'll assume you went to a community college. Are you kidding me, a weed out course? Yes, if 10-20% of your class is failing. But if the average is in the 40's and your teacher does nothing to compensate for it, you are gonna be doing a lot more than weeding out. If 70 (the regular C range) was considered passing, you'd be failing about 80% (at least) of the class. That's not a weed out class, that's a poorly taught course with tests that are much too hard.

No way, no gay friends, I'm way too cool for that.

I'm only semi-joking when i talk about CC's. The quality of students at CC's is much lower than at state or private schools and in-turn the material must be taught at a lower level. Obviously you dont know anyone that goes to a community college. There's a reason medical schools want your pre-req's done at a 4 year university. I wonder what that is.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Everyday that goes by I feel like the kids posting on sdn get more and more obnoxious.

To answer the OP's question, yes the professor should be required to curve in these kinds of situations.

They should curve with the average at a 69%? To what, 70%?

If the average is a C then the tests are perfectly calibrated to the level of the students.

 

[236116]

I'm only semi-joking when i talk about CC's. The quality of students at CC's is much lower than at state or private schools and in-turn the material must be taught at a lower level. Obviously you dont know anyone that goes to a community college. There's a reason medical schools want your pre-req's done at a 4 year university. I wonder what that is.

What are you talking about? Schools don't have an opinion on that any more unless you're a foreign kid. The quality is not "much" lower or even measurably so... This is not 1973. Get over yourself.

Did mommy homeschool your uni, too?

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asdfghjkl if cc's are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more low-level then whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy are all our allied health training there? what about the kids who go into mech and compsci and counselling and mortuary and emt/paramedic and early childhood/daycare and elem ed and shall i continue or do you get the point?

 

[redlight]

69 actually isnt too bad. i find medians are usually a bit higher so that means most of the class passed. we've all had a class were the prof was terrible, or the exam was impossible, so curving was necessary. example, one of my bcpm courses freshman year had an average of 23/100 (A's started high 40s/low 50s). also ive definitely have engineering friends whose finals in physics were in the 30s (out of 150). classes like these need curves. 69 is iffy.

 

[TehDoc]

OMG THE PROFESSOR HAS TO CURVE IM GETTiN A D!!

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

What are you talking about? Schools don't have an opinion on that any more unless you're a foreign kid. The quality is not "much" lower or even measurably so... This is not 1973. Get over yourself.

Did mommy homeschool your uni, too?

----------

asdfghjkl if cc's are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more low-level then whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy are all our allied health training there? what about the kids who go into mech and compsci and counselling and mortuary and emt/paramedic and early childhood/daycare and elem ed and shall i continue or do you get the point?

They are lower quality and that's why medical schools want your pre-reqs done at a real school.

Our allied health training is done at CC's because 1) the material is not very difficult and 2) many of the people going into those fields do not qualify to enter a 4 year university.

Since its so great, why don't CC's just open medical schools? Please explain.

Get over myself? I am pretty awesome so that's never going to happen, but I don't see what that has to do with me thinking CC standards are lower than that of 4 year state and private universities.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

OMG THE PROFESSOR HAS TO CURVE IM GETTiN A D!!

So you agree that there should be no curve when the average is a 69%. What if the average was a 40%?

 

[236116]

b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.

Okay, that's it.

I'm calling troll, since it's either that or you're too dumb to live.

 

[boggvir]

So you agree that there should be no curve when the average is a 69%. What if the average was a 40%?

A grade signifies that you have understood the material at a certain level. A 40% shows you don't understand the material, and therefore don't deserve to pass.

 

[TehDoc]

So you agree that there should be no curve when the average is a 69%. What if the average was a 40%?

Study smart.