Should there be a merger between DO & MD

[ganglion]

Paradox of Osteopathy.
Some interesting points were brought up by article in NEJM:
"At the end of the century, osteopathy continues its uneasy dance with allopathy, but only one partner is really paying attention...Today osteopathy have moved close to the mainstream --close enough so that in general it is no longer alternative medicine. The long term survival of osteopathic medicine will depend on its ability to define itself as distinct from and yet still equivalent to allopathic medicine....the paradox is: if osteopathy has become the functional equivalent of allopathy, what is the justification for its continued existence? And if there is value in therapy that is uniquely osteopathic--that is based on osteopathic manipulation and other techniques--why should its use be limited to osteopaths?
Joel D. Howell, M.D.,Ph.D. University of Michigan Ann Harbor, MI 48109-0604
The New England Journal of Medicine November 4,1999; 341:1426-1431, 1465-1467.

I am interested in getting a survey as to what you guys think about this idea.

Should there be a merger, and if so what problems do you see arising if this took place?

I was unable to find a thread that dealt with just this topic.

Thanx

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[Jumpu]

You must really want to know, since you've posted this like 10 times!

 

[deleted6669]

NO MERGER!
they are different and appeal to different types of people. a merger would force you to create an md program that would accept married applicants over 30 with kids and life experience at the same rate as 22 year old biochemistry majors with no clue about life. this program would have less backbiting, test hiding, and gunner behavior than all other programs and soon would develop its own specific requirements and exit exams that stress clinical skills and diagnosis over arcane knowledge. wait, that's a D.O. program and there are already 20 of them with more on the way!

 

[jhug]

i usually don't jump in on these kinds of debates but....over the last few years md schools have been closing and do schools have been opening. This means nothing as to the quality or reputation of one over the other-- but it does make one answer to the question posted-- why should they?

 

[Resident Alien]

Originally posted by emedpa
NO MERGER!
they are different and appeal to different types of people. a merger would force you to create an md program that would accept married applicants over 30 with kids and life experience at the same rate as 22 year old biochemistry majors with no clue about life. this program would have less backbiting, test hiding, and gunner behavior than all other programs and soon would develop its own specific requirements and exit exams that stress clinical skills and diagnosis over arcane knowledge.

Thats a pretty immature comment even from someone living in a world of your own. I wonder why people like you (who are hopefully a minority) have such a complex.

 

[deleted6669]

maybe it is because most md programs prefer younger applicants with science backgrounds to older applicants with diverse life experiences. a 30 year old literature major with a wife and kids with a 3.75 gpa and 32 mcat will have a much harder time getting into an md program than a 22 year old single bio major with the same stats while a DO program would be more likely to accept the older applicant.

 

[Resident Alien]

Originally posted by emedpa
maybe it is because most md programs prefer younger applicants with science backgrounds to older applicants with diverse life experiences. a 30 year old literature major with a wife and kids with a 3.75 gpa and 32 mcat will have a much harder time getting into an md program than a 22 year old single bio major with the same stats while a DO program would be more likely to accept the older applicant.

Says who?

 

[deleted6669]

talk to a few older applicants. there is a definite predjudice against older applicants with families and/or prior medical experience, even those with great stats. I know a number of docs who went to med school after 30 and most of them went DO, or to a mexican or carib md program despite excellent stats and backgrounds.

 

[Behcet]

dude, you're just bitter. MD schools accept plenty of "non-traditionals" as well as the "22 year olds"...you're talking to a guy from CWRU, a med school which wrote the book on non-traditional med school education. my own MD school has plenty of people who are several years out of college. for example, we have 2 people who wre former "rocket scientists" at NASA before deciding to go into medicine, we have one student who is over 40 and has kids my age, and we have several others who have worked at jobs ranging from EMT to military service to engineering and sales...and they all do great in med school. at UT-Southwestern apparently there is a senior citizen (I want to say 76, but I forget exactly how old he is) in their med school, and at Tulane there is a photographer who never graduated college but was accepted to the school on merit with "life experience" substituting for a bachelor's degree. don't turn your own bitterness into a hatred of MD schools (you don't even go to an MD school, how do you pretend to know the level of "backbiting" that goes on?), just admit that you weren't what they were looking for but you found a home in DO school and you're happy now...

 

[DOnut]

Sorry I have to agree with Behcet and Resident Alien on this one. I know plenty of non-traditional students at allopathic schools. My mentor is an MD ophthalmologist who didn't start medical school until he was 31. He was an engineer prior to medical school, no clinical experience.

Why did I end up at an Osteopathic school? Well because it was the school that accepted both my wife and I into the same class. I am very grateful for this.

To answer the original question, NO I do not believe that DO and MD schools should merge; however, I do believe that if the AOA and certain aspects of osteopathic medicine (like distinctiveness) don't change then a merger will be inevitable.

 

[njdesi]

I am not going to debate about the "DO vs MD" thing, but one thing I will say is that I feel the DO schools saw the potential that I had to offer to not only in osteopathic medicine, but as a doctor.
They were able to look past my average MCAT scores (25P) and
ok grades, and to the life experience and graduate degree that I did in public health. To date, not a single MD school I applied to
(6 in all) has bothered to invite me for an interview. I am perfectly ok with that. I am excited to be attending PCOM this August 2003.

 

[jhug]

the local med school here thinks that a non-traditional student is someone east of the mississippi

DO schools take more non-trad students that MD schools-- that debate is mute. I think we all agree that being a non-trad vs. traditional will not determine the quality of physician you will be.

Back to the question at hand-- a merger will not benefit either branch of medicine. They both serve the community in very positive ways and attract a broader, more complete group of people. An increase in harmony between MD/DO's (which i think is happening) will greatly benefit everyone.

 

[volvulus]

You know I have noticed one thing. It's usually the DO's that keep comparing themselves with MD's. It's also the DO's that keep talking about how excellent their osteopathic programs are. I agree, osteopathic schools are good but why is it that you don't see MD's thinking about and constantly comparing themselves with DO's? Is it because DO's have something to prove? Why can't all docs (mainly DO's) be content with who they are and work to improve medicine?

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Originally posted by volvulus
why is it that you don't see MD's thinking about and constantly comparing themselves with DO's? Is it because DO's have something to prove? Why can't all docs (mainly DO's) be content with who they are and work to improve medicine?

It seems to me that the vast majority of DOs with "something to prove" are really pre-meds or newly accepted applicants zealously trying to educate about osteopathy. This is sometimes due to people simply being uniformed, and other times spurred by allo-looking pre-meds trying to bash DOs.

It seems like anyone who has an ounce of actual work in medicine is able to see that being a good doctor simply entails being a good doctor, and the bashing or apologetics of osteopathy tend to cease. Kind of hard to debate when you're looking at a mountain of charts to do.

 

[PACtoDOC]

emedpa is right you guys. DO programs simply know that there is more to life than making great grades, and having a high MCAT score. They figured this out years ago when a majority of their applicants were of lower academic status. But once they figured out that even those with lower grades or MCATs made great doctors anyway, they continued to accept these people even after their admission requirments and standards came up. IN my class, we have nearly 20% of the class over 30, with a few over 40. Nearly 50% are married, which is a huge discrepancy compared to allopathic schools. Some MD schools are worse than others when it comes to refusing to look at non-traditionals, but you won't find a DO school anywhere that doesn't actively look for these people. That is the difference.

 

[Ligament]

Originally posted by volvulus
You know I have noticed one thing. It's usually the DO's that keep comparing themselves with MD's. It's also the DO's that keep talking about how excellent their osteopathic programs are. I agree, osteopathic schools are good but why is it that you don't see MD's thinking about and constantly comparing themselves with DO's? Is it because DO's have something to prove? Why can't all docs (mainly DO's) be content with who they are and work to improve medicine?

I agree with Volvulus. Regards!

 

[oceandocDO]

It's also the DO's that keep talking about how excellent their osteopathic programs are

Huh? Do MDs constantly bash their programs? How should DOs act instead?

Why can't all docs (mainly DO's) be content with who they are and work to improve medicine

They are. It's the crazy world of premeds who are the discontents and will believe any of the dribble strewn about these boards.

Is it because DO's have something to prove?

No, not so much more than any minority has had to "prove" themselves throughout the course of history. Osteopathic medicine is the quickest growing sector of healthcare as recently proven by a Univ of Wisconsin study. I think that's about all the proof I need.

Why can't all docs (mainly DO's) be content with who they are and work to improve medicine?

Show me an actual D.O. (not a predmed) who's not content with who they are.

I'm not sure who or what you are, but it's actually posts like yours that perpetuate the very topic that you try and dismiss.

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by volvulus
You know I have noticed one thing. It's usually the DO's that keep comparing themselves with MD's. It's also the DO's that keep talking about how excellent their osteopathic programs are. I agree, osteopathic schools are good but why is it that you don't see MD's thinking about and constantly comparing themselves with DO's? Is it because DO's have something to prove? Why can't all docs (mainly DO's) be content with who they are and work to improve medicine?

I pretty much agree.

But I also think it's the pro-DO premeds who are the ones with the biggest "DOs are just as good!" comments.

Once you're in school you don't think about it.

I surely don't. I don't feel inferior in any sense. I'm getting my butt kicked with anatomy, pharmacology, immunology and all those other great things just like hundreds of MD students out there.

People need to give up on the whole better/worse/different issue. Be happy. There's no room in medicine for animosity towards your colleagues...save it for the lawyers and insurance companies.



We need to have one big MD and DO drinking party. Rent out a banquet hall and stack some kegs in the middle...a helluva shindig.




Hehehe...I smell drinking contest....THEN, once and for all we will find out who is superior...DOs or MDs...

 

[Celiac Plexus]

That DO schools take more "non-traditional" applicants is debatable. You need to define "non-traditional". If it is defined as having lower grades, or test scores, then you might be right.

If it is defined as simply being older, then might be wrong. Unfortunately there are no peer-reviewed articles that I know of that examines this issue.

But, consider that the acceptance patterns of MD schools and DO schools may be more influenced by application trends than the whims of adcoms. I would say that generally the most important criteria for MD admission is grades and test scores. Research, undergrad rep, recommendations, etc are also factors, but gpa and mcat are usually used as minimal screening criteria in the early stage of application.

If you look at the demographics of applicants overall, you might find that most applicants are college seniors. Therefore, by force of sheer numbers, they will gain the highest percentage of first year MD spots. At that point in their lives, they probably can't claim to be NASA engineers so the criteria that becomes most important for them, admission-wise, are their numbers.

Non-trad applicants represent a smaller % of total applicants. Probably more of them have lower grades, and mcats, but have important "life" experience too. However, even if a larger % of this group gains admission to MD schools, their total number will still be smaller than the number of "22 year-old biochem majors". And then, there will be more of these older applicants who just have significantly lower grades and mcats, and will not get in to MD schools, just like the hordes of 22 year-olds who did not have high enough scores to get in to an MD school.

DO schools, whether you admit it or not, are in competition with MD schools for these applicants. Now more than ever, applicants are considering DO and MD schools as two different pathways to get to the same place... practice medicine. I would say that most applicants favor MD schools for whatever reasons. Therefore, DO schools have a different applicant pool to choose from. The applicant pool probably has a significantly higher % of "non-traditional" applicants, and signicantly lower % of college senior applicants to choose from. It would stand to reason that the demographics of DO schools would reflect this. And they do.

So, if you say that DO schools deliberately fill their programs with older applicants with more "life" experience then that might be true. But consider that they might not have much of a choice. Either way, the application/acceptance patterns of MD and DO schools say little if anything about the quality of the education or the ability of the graduates.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Originally posted by Celiac Plexus
DO schools, whether you admit it or not, are in competition with MD schools for these applicants. Now more than ever, applicants are considering DO and MD schools as two different pathways to get to the same place... practice medicine. I would say that most applicants favor MD schools for whatever reasons.

Good thoughts. I also feel that the cost of DO schools can be prohibitive for many students that have a cheap state MD school available to them. If DO schools were available for 5K-10K per year, I wonder what the application numbers and stats might look like. And, of course, you have the location factor to deal with.

 

[DocWagner]

I can tell you that my med school class of 230 had an average age of 24...not much different than most MD programs. And since I am in an MD residency, I see the medstudents that rotate through, and their ages and experiences vary drastically!
I think the "we look past numbers and look at the person" mantra marketing schpeel has worked for DO programs. And now we believe this ONLY exists in DO programs...which is absolutely false.

I was nontraditional...I wouldn't do anything different, but I guess I really didn't research it well. The DO's and the MD's really aren't that different AT ALL!
Except, of course...I can also heal with my hands

 

[rbassdo]

Ditto for me. Like DocWagner's experience, my class' average age is between 23-24. I would have to dissagree with the notion that DO schools more readily accept "non-traditional" students. Not that I dislike old folks but from a practical perspective...accepting a younger student over an older student with, say, the same stats does make sense - for lots of reasons. I think that's easy to see. Lastly...I chose the school I'm attending not because it was DO, but because it matched my tastes on several levels. My second choice was an MD school, then DO...and so on. Big deal if we merge some day...I wasn't put on this earth to serve osteopathy. I was put on this earth to serve humanity. We're all in this together.

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by rbassdo
Big deal if we merge some day...I wasn't put on this earth to serve osteopathy. I was put on this earth to serve humanity. We're all in this together.

Word.

 

[ganglion]

Originally posted by rbassdo
Big deal if we merge some day...I wasn't put on this earth to serve osteopathy. I was put on this earth to serve humanity. We're all in this together.
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Well said.

I do hope that this sentiment will be shared with the pre-med population so that the schism between the two (MD/DO) will lessen at that level.