Should we be worried...ADA accreditation to international schools

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DentalNerd

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This topic was discussed during a practice management lecture. The ADA wants to accredit schools outside the U.S. Would this allow foreign trained dentists to practice freely in the U.S. without further education?

This all started when California gave full approval to a dental school in Mexico.

http://www.agd.org/library/2006/may/cover.asp

"The California Dental Board, under orders from its state legislature, also bypassed the traditional American Dental Association (ADA)-sanctioned process of accreditation, and since 2004 has independently granted full approval to a dental school program of Universidad La Salle in Leon, Mexico, for state licensure. Another program, Manipal College of Dental Sciences in Manipal, India, has applied to the California Dental Board for approval."

The glory days of dentistry may be over if we see a flood of new dentist, especially in the Southwest. The jobs will go to the lowest bidder.

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This topic was discussed during a practice management lecture. The ADA wants to accredit schools outside the U.S. Would this allow foreign trained dentists to practice freely in the U.S. without further education?

This all started when California gave full approval to a dental school in Mexico.

http://www.agd.org/library/2006/may/cover.asp

"The California Dental Board, under orders from its state legislature, also bypassed the traditional American Dental Association (ADA)-sanctioned process of accreditation, and since 2004 has independently granted full approval to a dental school program of Universidad La Salle in Leon, Mexico, for state licensure. Another program, Manipal College of Dental Sciences in Manipal, India, has applied to the California Dental Board for approval."

The glory days of dentistry may be over if we see a flood of new dentist, especially in the Southwest. The jobs will go to the lowest bidder.

Bad, verrrry, verrry bad.
 
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California has lost it.... However I don't think the ADA will let it happen. If you are interested see this case. http://www.ada.org/prof/advocacy/legal/alaska/index.asp

This was a case brought up in a course last year. The ADA is out to protect us. If you mess with them they will straight sue your, well, you know what.
-C
 
If the ADA accredits the Universidad La Salle in Leon, Mexico, or Manipal College of Dental Sciences in Manipal, India, it may not matter what state you are in. Since they are ADA accredited, they would be the equivalent to any ADA accredited school in the U.S.

The ADA is worried that additional states will overide the ADA, and allow foreign trained dentists to practice freely in their state (i.e. California). In other words, the ADA is afraid of losing power. So instead of fighting California, they are working with them to give full accreditation to the foreign schools. This way they can oversee the quality of education without being shut out.

I just can't understand why an association made up of practicing dentists would allow this to happen. I definitely need to find out more information.
 
I just can't understand why an association made up of practicing dentists would allow this to happen. I definitely need to find out more information.

Doesn't the article you gave say that the California legislature overstepped the Californial dental board to allow foreign trained dentists. I don't think the association "allowed" it to happen. It doesn't seem like it had a choice. That's the thing with dentistry. Our profession derives its power from legislation, not from education. If a bunch of congressman want to thumb their noses at our education, they can. They can let the local barbers practice dentistry too. The ADA is pretty powerful though. It has gotten dentistry to where it is today and hopefully will be able to continue to protect us.
 
Why can't the peoples republic of california just kinda break off and float away......?
 
I think California is it's own country, so whatever they do doesn't effect the rest of the US.
 
NY requires either citizenship or resident alien status (green card) to get a NYS license. Foreign dentists practice in Jersey.
 
NY requires either citizenship or resident alien status (green card) to get a NYS license. Foreign dentists practice in Jersey.

Sure, but don't they complete a couple years of training at an ADA accredited dental school in the US or Canada or are they practicing here straight out of foreign dental schools?
 
This topic was discussed during a practice management lecture. The ADA wants to accredit schools outside the U.S. Would this allow foreign trained dentists to practice freely in the U.S. without further education?

I was just going through my junk mail today and found a bill to renew my ADA membership at an obscene price at their "recent grad" rate. If the ADA is spending my money on accrediting foreign dental schools and OEC mishaps, and can't control hygiene/DAs pushing for expanded scope (the Alaska issue), then what's the point of being a member anymore if they don't protect our interests?

I used to be involved and proud of ASDA/ADA in dental school, but now I'm growing jaded.
 
I was just going through my junk mail today and found a bill to renew my ADA membership at an obscene price at their "recent grad" rate. If the ADA is spending my money on accrediting foreign dental schools and OEC mishaps, and can't control hygiene/DAs pushing for expanded scope (the Alaska issue), then what's the point of being a member anymore if they don't protect our interests?

I used to be involved and proud of ASDA/ADA in dental school, but now I'm growing jaded.
It goes way past even those issues. Check out some of the recent ADA threads at Dentaltown. There seems to be a lot of discontent toward the ADA growing within the profession, particularly among general dentists.
 
The ADA is having and will continue to have a hard time dealing with the globalization of the dental world. But globalization poses a threat to many other organizations as well and shouldn't come as a surprise. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't blame the ADA for its adaptive policy making towards globalization. Afterall, from a historical aspect, haven't strong state dental associations somewhat buckled under the power of the national ADA? We're entering a new generation of global dentistry. There are increasing demands for American dentists to compete in the global market, particularly with dental tourism. It will be interesting to see if a world-wide dental association will develope over the next few decades and somewhat squeeze the ADA into somewhate of a "state" dental association status. Until then, I believe it's best to stick with the ADA because we're better together than as isolationists. We wouldn't want to end up like the AMA (Medical).
 
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what a coincedince - i got a survery from the ADA the other day. just put it back in the mail. blasted them for the OEC mess and this accrediting mess - ridiculous that they're getting involved in india and mexico - that should be left to those individual countries who understand the treatment needs, available resources and competencies there better.

although we all have the urge to do otherwise, we basically have to get involved, starting off locally and that's the only way policies will reflect our opinions. ada is the national organization.
 
NY requires either citizenship or resident alien status (green card) to get a NYS license. Foreign dentists practice in Jersey.

sure, but after a few years (when they get their green card) they can move wherever they want.
 
what a coincedince - i got a survery from the ADA the other day. just put it back in the mail. blasted them for the OEC mess and this accrediting mess - ridiculous that they're getting involved in india and mexico - that should be left to those individual countries who understand the treatment needs, available resources and competencies there better.

although we all have the urge to do otherwise, we basically have to get involved, starting off locally and that's the only way policies will reflect our opinions. ada is the national organization.

This is true. We can still argue to our state legislatures that they should not let foreign dental school students directly come practice here. I'm not sure why the ADA gave up so easily. I mean, yes the legislatures have overstepped them, but since when does the ADA give up without a fight? On the other hand, it may be difficult to convince our state legislatures why we don't want other dentists coming in from other countries to do the work for less. We can play the incompetent card but that's about all we have.
 
This is true. We can still argue to our state legislatures that they should not let foreign dental school students directly come practice here. I'm not sure why the ADA gave up so easily. I mean, yes the legislatures have overstepped them, but since when does the ADA give up without a fight? On the other hand, it may be difficult to convince our state legislatures why we don't want other dentists coming in from other countries to do the work for less. We can play the incompetent card but that's about all we have.

ya, and that's a HUGE "card" it's true. speak to any foreign trained dentist who's practiced in their country, and goes thru advanced standing programs in this country. they admit it's entirely advanced here, different materials, newer concepts , etc.
 
This is true. We can still argue to our state legislatures that they should not let foreign dental school students directly come practice here. I'm not sure why the ADA gave up so easily. I mean, yes the legislatures have overstepped them, but since when does the ADA give up without a fight? On the other hand, it may be difficult to convince our state legislatures why we don't want other dentists coming in from other countries to do the work for less. We can play the incompetent card but that's about all we have.

The incompetent card is huge, isn't that the real concern? Have you guys seen patients that have had work done in other countries? It is just terrible. I know there are people here that don't always put out the best results but I just can't believe some of the things I see from other places in the world. This is something that can't be allowed to happen here.
 
We're entering a new generation of global dentistry. There are increasing demands for American dentists to compete in the global market, particularly with dental tourism. It will be interesting to see if a world-wide dental association will develope over the next few decades and somewhat squeeze the ADA into somewhate of a "state" dental association status. .



Compete in a world market? Dental Tourism?

What are you talking about. Are you saying that the small town dentist will be in competition from some dude in india?

Quit smoking crack man and just vote no to accredidation of foreign schools.
 
Compete in a world market? Dental Tourism?

What are you talking about. Are you saying that the small town dentist will be in competition from some dude in india?

Quit smoking crack man and just vote no to accredidation of foreign schools.

I can't beleive that any sane person would even entertain the idea of accrediting international schools. Yes, their are a few countries out there that have good schools but none of them start with an M or an I.
 
Compete in a world market? Dental Tourism?

What are you talking about. Are you saying that the small town dentist will be in competition from some dude in india?

Quit smoking crack man and just vote no to accredidation of foreign schools.

The globalization of dentisty will affect dentistry in the following ways.

Some patients will get their dentistry done in other countries and pay for their vacations with the savings. While many are uninformed about the risks they take when doing this, others won't care as long as the pain resides.

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=2064

And, as we're seeing with this thread, some dentists will come from other countries and compete directly with "small town dentists" right here in our own country. This is just the beginning.

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=1528

I've left some homework for you tittybreath. Catch up.
 
So has manipal been given accreditation?
 
Even California alone would be great enough to cause a problem
I'm in Tx and I've already seen many foreign dentist practicing here after passing Cali and getting a green card..
I'm sure this has already started, it's just that those foreign dentists probably just don't go around telling that to other people and their patients..
If the ada allows this it would be a matter of time before those foreign dental school grads would be practicing across the whole nation..


I've also seen a nurse from India who graduated med school in India that recently took the USMLE and can now work as a doctor here..
The only problem he has now is that he finds it hard to get a job here with his resume.. but for dentists who can easily open a private practice, this would be another story..

I really don't know what the ada is thinking??
These countries mentioned.. Mexico and India.. don't they know that the US already has more than enough immigrants or illegal immigrants coming in?
And can't they immagine what would happen if they now allow the foreign dentists to come in?? The majority of them will probably be more than willing to come if they are permitted..

ADA should know that most of the other dental associations in other countries work and stand for their members and do not just easily allow foreign grad dentists to easily come in and work like this..
To give an example would be some asian countries like China and Korea..
This may sound unfair.. but the dental associations there distinguish between countries giving a higher priority to american dental graduates
Everybody is given a equal chance to apply for licensure and take the exams..but in the second procedure which is the interview process, they make it practically impossible for those foreign graduates other than the US to get accepted..
The reason these countries changed their dental licensure law in the pass couple of years is because they have had too many foreign dental graduates from philippines and india and etc.. coming in.. Now they have strenghten the regualtions that it's hard for even US graduates to come in..

Would voting make a change on this accreditation??
 
I just don't see why India or Mexico would want the ADA to accredite their schools. it seems that, if anything, their respective governments would fight to keep their native dentists in their native country. Sure, there are problems with access to care in the US, but I'm sure access problems are even worse in Mexico or India. Why would they want to make it easier for foreign dentists to come over here, if it would only make the problem worse over there?

And what about California? Are they selfish enough to think that they deserve more dentists than Mexico?
 
yer so has manipal been accredited. please tell me
 
I just don't see why India or Mexico would want the ADA to accredite their schools. it seems that, if anything, their respective governments would fight to keep their native dentists in their native country.


Maybe the "IDA" or the "MDA" wants to provide more work place for their dentists because they are saturated.

It's not just with dentistry.. for example, many govs of underdeveloped countries are trying to work out with the US gov to let their citizens into the US without a visa..
Why would these countries strive to make their citizens leave their country??
It's because their citizens are asking for it and their gov too wants to provide a broader working opportunity for their citizens.

For Cali, they could earn the benifit of getting more dentists without investing more money in dental education by simply recruiting those foreign dentists..
And the Mexico and India gov could provide their dentists with more working opportunities..
So it would be a "win, win" for both govs..
and the only ones left to suffer would be the US dentists
Just like how it is with nursing..
Because of the shortage of nurses in the US the gov is just pouring out green cards to get foreign nurses to work in the US..(But at least with nursing there really is a shortage)
I feel either the gov or the ada is trying to head dentistry to the same direction as nursing but while they are doing this, I hope they would also consider the amount of time, money and effort that dentists had put into their education compared to most other professions..
 
The incompetent card is huge, isn't that the real concern? Have you guys seen patients that have had work done in other countries? It is just terrible. I know there are people here that don't always put out the best results but I just can't believe some of the things I see from other places in the world. This is something that can't be allowed to happen here.

I'd say anyone who is competent enough to pass a licensure exam here is competent enough to practice, there's sucky dentists anywhere you go IMO.. The real issue here is money, if accreditation where to happen in foreign soil where the standard of living/education is cheaper, than we'd have more students from here enrolling abroad. You can’t beat roughly 1K vs. 90K tuition per sem.
 
I just don't see why India or Mexico would want the ADA to accredite their schools. it seems that, if anything, their respective governments would fight to keep their native dentists in their native country. Sure, there are problems with access to care in the US, but I'm sure access problems are even worse in Mexico or India. Why would they want to make it easier for foreign dentists to come over here, if it would only make the problem worse over there?

And what about California? Are they selfish enough to think that they deserve more dentists than Mexico?

I would imagine those places are already saturated with dentists
 
I would imagine those places are already saturated with dentists

That doesn't make sense to me. There are tons of humanitartian dental trips that go to Mexico. I can't imagine that if Mexico were saturated there would be a need for such trips.
 
The real issue here is money, if accreditation where to happen in foreign soil where the standard of living/education is cheaper, than we'd have more students from here enrolling abroad. You can't beat roughly 1K vs. 90K tuition per sem.


I doubt students here would be able to enroll abroad in those schools..
Those dental schools in other countries have different requirements than those here in the US..
Unless you speak, read and write in spanish and Indian very fluently and become well prepared for the dental admissions exam in those countries and pass the interview process, it will be pretty tough to get into those dental schools..
Some phillipine dental schools are really easy to get into.. but not all dentals schools abroad are like these phillipine and carribean schools that are really easy to get into..
 
That doesn't make sense to me. There are tons of humanitartian dental trips that go to Mexico. I can't imagine that if Mexico were saturated there would be a need for such trips.


I heard from a Mexican friend that there are more than enough doctors and dentists in S America..but it's just that many of the people there just can't afford the treatments as the financial gap between the rich and the poor is so large..
And considering the exchange rate between dollars and the currency of Mexico and India, why wouldn't they come??
Work for 10 years, return to their country and they have made a fortune!
 
I just don't see how accreditation of foreign dental schools is going to fly here. Aside from politics I think it will be a bit of a problem since the way countries train dentist is different than in the US. The foreign dentist may need some training to update their skills to the standard of the US. Dental schools will lose out since it will kill the purpose of having advance standing.
 
I just don't see how accreditation of foreign dental schools is going to fly here. Aside from politics I think it will be a bit of a problem since the way countries train dentist is different than in the US. The foreign dentist may need some training to update their skills to the standard of the US. Dental schools will lose out since it will kill the purpose of having advance standing.

If accreditation is made, I'm sure those dentists will work their way through without much problem..
All they need would be a couple of cosmetics dentistry classes in continuing ed and that would probably take care of most of that problem
 
I doubt students here would be able to enroll abroad in those schools..
Those dental schools in other countries have different requirements than those here in the US..
Unless you speak, read and write in spanish and Indian very fluently and become well prepared for the dental admissions exam in those countries and pass the interview process, it will be pretty tough to get into those dental schools..
Some phillipine dental schools are really easy to get into.. but not all dentals schools abroad are like these phillipine and carribean schools that are really easy to get into..

you'll never know, its the least they can do to have their schools accredited. I know in the Philippines, med students pay a fee of around 10K, if you aren't a citizen there upon enrolling, then that aside tuition is the same as the locals....IHO it bottoms down if the person is competent or not. Who am I deny anyone "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" when licensure exams pretty much sets even grounds among everyone.
 
If accreditation is made, I'm sure those dentists will work their way through without much problem..
All they need would be a couple of cosmetics dentistry classes in continuing ed and that would probably take care of most of that problem[/Q

yeah thank God for CE courses.
 
The school in Manipal has a curriculum solely based on passing the board or equivalence exams here. The language of instruction is English, like any other Indian university. The best part about Manipal is that you can attend at 18, no undergraduate degree needed. They teach you everything you need to know to become a dentist. A lot of people go there from here to save money, as well as save 4 years. I guess 2, if you join here as a third year after you're done there.
 
The school in Manipal has a curriculum solely based on passing the board or equivalence exams here. The language of instruction is English, like any other Indian university. The best part about Manipal is that you can attend at 18, no undergraduate degree needed. They teach you everything you need to know to become a dentist. A lot of people go there from here to save money, as well as save 4 years. I guess 2, if you join here as a third year after you're done there.


So do you mean this school is already accredited??


I'm wondering if current dentists are even aware of this..
If voting could change anything, the US dentists out there should start voting against this!!
If we let this one school pass, this can go on in the future.. and the next time it happens, it may go through more easliy..
Dentists should start getting more involved in these kinds of issues..
Treating patients and pulling teeth are not the only way to make money if that's what keeping them busy from getting involved!
 
for god sake, HAS MANIPAL BEEN ACCREDITED?!:mad:
 
Unless you speak, read and write in Indian very fluently ..
..

I laughed out loud when I read this!! The medium of instruction/teaching in all Indian medical/dental/engineering universities is English!

And also just FYI It is next to impossible to start ur own private practice in the US unless u have a GC or US citizenship and getting a GC here is a looooong and exhausting process!
 
is everyone ignroning my qu on purpose lol
 
mass,
I dont think anyone knows for sure...instead of waiting for an answer..why dont u call the school directly and find out..that way u will get first hand info from the folks at manipal.

is everyone ignroning my qu on purpose lol
 
mass,
I dont think anyone knows for sure...instead of waiting for an answer..why dont u call the school directly and find out..that way u will get first hand info from the folks at manipal.
the only problem with this is that sometimes they will lie so i join, its the indian mentatily.
 
I laughed out loud when I read this!! The medium of instruction/teaching in all Indian medical/dental/engineering universities is English!

I live in America and I see tons of Indians here and I also have Indian friends so of course I know they learn english
But I heard from them that they also mix alot of their own language along with english

For green cards, it does take a couple of years but it doesn't mean it's impossible to get one.
The reason why most foreign dentists haven't been rushing into the US up to now is because they don't want to go through another 5-8 years of undergrad and dental school all over again..
But if they don't have to go through all of this to work as a dentist in the US why not just wait a couple of years working in their country before their green card comes out.
 
I guess we could try asking ada tomorrow?

yer we all need to find out the exact situation because it is a pointless rant if we dont even know if they have been accredited or what is exactly going on.
 
I said that the medium of instruction/teaching is in English.The books are in English. So u study in English. The textbooks are mostly by American/British authors.The only time u will talk in an Indian language is while conversing with ur patients.

And who told u green cards take "a couple of years"!!!!! I never said it is impossible but it takes a loooooooooooooong time to get one, and with all the retrogression and backlog- prbly 5-8 years that is if u get someone to sponsor ur work visa and then ur GC!!
And u cannot work in ur home country when u apply for GC. U have to live here and work for ur sponsoring employer(there r exceptions to this rule but that is in the minority)
GC is not as easy as u think it is.

I am from India and I do believe that the way patients are cared for in the US is different from that back home. We are as competent as any dentist in the US but the method and standard of care here is definitely very different and to understand that we need to go through advanced standing programs. Based on that I think its very important for foreign students to go thro some kind of program in the US before they get a license to work here.







I live in America and I see tons of Indians here and I also have Indian friends so of course I know they learn english
But I heard from them that they also mix alot of their own language along with english

For green cards, it does take a couple of years but it doesn't mean it's impossible to get one.
The reason why most foreign dentists haven't been rushing into the US up to now is because they don't want to go through another 5-8 years of undergrad and dental school all over again..
But if they don't have to go through all of this to work as a dentist in the US why not just wait a couple of years working in their country before their green card comes out.[/QUOTE]
 
i just got accepted to dental school...this is the most depressing thing ive read. i went through a tough 4 years in undergrad to get a biochemistry degree and studied for the DAT really hard, and shadowed and volunteered my butt off for hundreds of hours. ill be 29 by the time i get out of school and ill be competing with some 22 year old from india that didnt even have to go through undergrad. it figures that now that i get in, i read this and find out that all my hard work may not even really pay off....wow :(

throw in free medical care for illegal immigrants and it seems like it pays less everyday to be a (hard working) american citizen.
 
I said that the medium of instruction/teaching is in English.The books are in English. So u study in English. The textbooks are mostly by American/British authors.The only time u will talk in an Indian language is while conversing with ur patients.

And who told u green cards take "a couple of years"!!!!! I never said it is impossible but it takes a loooooooooooooong time to get one, and with all the retrogression and backlog- prbly 5-8 years that is if u get someone to sponsor ur work visa and then ur GC!!
And u cannot work in ur home country when u apply for GC. U have to live here and work for ur sponsoring employer(there r exceptions to this rule but that is in the minority)
GC is not as easy as u think it is.

I am from India and I do believe that the way patients are cared for in the US is different from that back home. We are as competent as any dentist in the US but the method and standard of care here is definitely very different and to understand that we need to go through advanced standing programs. Based on that I think its very important for foreign students to go thro some kind of program in the US before they get a license to work here.







I live in America and I see tons of Indians here and I also have Indian friends so of course I know they learn english
But I heard from them that they also mix alot of their own language along with english

For green cards, it does take a couple of years but it doesn't mean it's impossible to get one.
The reason why most foreign dentists haven't been rushing into the US up to now is because they don't want to go through another 5-8 years of undergrad and dental school all over again..
But if they don't have to go through all of this to work as a dentist in the US why not just wait a couple of years working in their country before their green card comes out.
[/QUOTE]



whats the point of this rant when there is no confirmation yet of actual accerediation of ANY indian unis!:confused:
 
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