Significant advantage to going to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc?

[MCATforsale1]

Hey guys, what is the significant advantage of going to places like Harvard for medical school beyond their top tier curriculum? Would earning power after medical school increase? Would there be significantly more opportunities for residency? Perhaps the simple fact that you'd develop better connections in the medical world? Any other advantages? Thanks in advance for information. I plan on contacting the schools, but thought I'd get some preliminary information here first.

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[Gandyy]

"Earning Power?"

 

[Spinach Dip]

Connections would probably be the greatest benefit.

 

[Spinach Dip]

I plan on contacting the schools, but thought I'd get some preliminary information here first.

BTW, what is the point of this? Are you going to email Harvards admissions office and say "hey what are the benefits of going to your school"?

 

[Fastrada]

You are going to contact schools to ask if there is any advantage to attending their program over others?

There is an advantage in earning power in the sense that it could make you the connections and give you a name brand that can increase your chances at getting the residency match you want. But if someone from Harvard and someone from random state med school have the same job in the same hospital, the Harvard person would not get paid more just because of their school

 

[MCATforsale1]

You are going to contact schools to ask if there is any advantage to attending their program over others?

There is an advantage in earning power in the sense that it could make you the connections and give you a name brand that can increase your chances at getting the residency match you want. But if someone from Harvard and someone from random state med school have the same job in the same hospital, the Harvard person would not get paid more just because of their school

Nono, I don't mean they'd get paid more for the same work. I mean the former point; If you go to harvard, you'd meet the right people and it would lead you to better jobs.

 

[deleted407021]

I mean, people begging for your stats on SDN would be kind of annoying.


I think the social capital you'd gain would be of most benefit.

 

[order66.exe]

Nono, I don't mean they'd get paid more for the same work. I mean the former point; If you go to harvard, you'd meet the right people and it would lead you to better jobs.

As I've read, they have some advantage at getting higher paid jobs in more desirable locations (NYC, LA, SF) where their training is used for promotional reasons. That said, Harvard Family Doc isn't going to make as much as State U Derm, all things considered.

 

[Fastrada]

Nono, I don't mean they'd get paid more for the same work. I mean the former point; If you go to harvard, you'd meet the right people and it would lead you to better jobs.

A place like Harvard would definitely give you more options, but better job could mean a lot of things. Harvard's good because it wouldn't close any doors anywhere really, whereas others schools may require more legwork to get to where you want to go

 

[MCATforsale1]

As I've read, they have some advantage at getting higher paid jobs in more desirable locations (NYC, LA, SF) where their training is used for promotional reasons. That said, Harvard Family Doc isn't going to make as much as State U Derm, all things considered.

Of course Derm > Fam. So you're also basically saying the cache and slight advantage in jobs is the main advantage.

 

[MCATforsale1]

A place like Harvard would definitely give you more options, but better job could mean a lot of things. Harvard's good because it wouldn't close any doors anywhere really, whereas others schools may require more legwork to get to where you want to go

So that's one more for competitiveness in jobs.

 

[Fastrada]

So that's one more for competitiveness in jobs.

I would say more competitiveness for residency than for jobs. Knowing people trumps where you went to school, I would think, in terms of getting a job (unless it is a place that wants to use your resume for PR)

Edit: This is my opinion based on what I know from other career fields and my prior research on the matter

 

[MCATforsale1]

I would say more competitiveness for residency than for jobs. Knowing people trumps where you went to school, I would think, in terms of getting a job (unless it is a place that wants to use your resume for PR)

Edit: This is my opinion based on what I know from other career fields and my prior research on the matter

Fair enough. Thanks for the info!

 

[AlteredScale]

Hey guys, what is the significant advantage of going to places like Harvard for medical school beyond their top tier curriculum? Would earning power after medical school increase? Would there be significantly more opportunities for residency? Perhaps the simple fact that you'd develop better connections in the medical world? Any other advantages? Thanks in advance for information. I plan on contacting the schools, but thought I'd get some preliminary information here first.

Research, being on the front end of new discoveries and having the opportunity to play a role in that, hearing from the experts in clinical medicine, gaining potential connections to program directors and department chairs, having the home field advantage (being able to do your sub I at MGH after already rotating there to build connections Im guessing makes it a bit easier to match there), being looked at as innovators and leaders in medicine and not just "medical students".

 

[MCATforsale1]

Research, being on the front end of new discoveries and having the opportunity to play a role in that, hearing from the experts in clinical medicine, gaining potential connections to program directors and department chairs, having the home field advantage (being able to do your sub I at MGH after already rotating there to build connections Im guessing makes it a bit easier to match there), being looked at as innovators and leaders in medicine and not just "medical students".

Thanks for the post! Add another for competitiveness/connections.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Hey guys, what is the significant advantage of going to places like Harvard for medical school beyond their top tier curriculum?

I plan on contacting the schools

 

[Fastrada]

Thanks for the post! Add another for competitiveness/connections.

Basically, if you get into Harvard and your other options aren't $100K+ cheaper, go to Harvard. But if you don't, you'll still be able to have a great career

 

[MCATforsale1]

Thanks for the info guys. It's appreciated!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Thanks for the info guys. It's appreciated!

How do you define a top tier curriculum? Are you aware that Stanford and Harvard have vastly different curricula?

 

[justadream]

BTW, what is the point of this? Are you going to email Harvards admissions office and say "hey what are the benefits of going to your school"?

Maybe OP will do it in person on interview day

 

[deleted407021]

As I've read, they have some advantage at getting higher paid jobs in more desirable locations (NYC, LA, SF) where their training is used for promotional reasons. That said, Harvard Family Doc isn't going to make as much as State U Derm, all things considered.

I don't understand how places like NYC, LA and SF are at all "desirable". I think it's an SDN thing.

 

[Goro]

The learned @mimelim has discussed this eloquently in other threads.

Hey guys, what is the significant advantage of going to places like Harvard for medical school beyond their top tier curriculum? Would earning power after medical school increase? Would there be significantly more opportunities for residency? Perhaps the simple fact that you'd develop better connections in the medical world? Any other advantages? Thanks in advance for information. I plan on contacting the schools, but thought I'd get some preliminary information here first.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I don't understand how places like NYC, LA and SF are at all "desirable". I think it's an SDN thing.

Lol, you beat @WingedOx to it

Essentially, people wouldn't pay an arm and a leg to live in NYC and SF if they weren't desirable. I'm not sure how LA compares in terms of COL, but I guarantee its not Alabama-cheap. However, I agree that other parts of the country are indeed underrated.

 

[Law2Doc]

There is frequently an inverse correlation between academic prestige and earning power. youll see lots of Harvard types gravitate toward academic settings to study the zebras while the state school grad prefers making bling chugging through herds of horses in private practice.

But I think the goal is you want to take whatever steps you can to to get to a career you actually enjoy. If that is eased by a walk through the Ivy, by all means. But it might not be.

 

[WingedOx]

Lol, you beat @WingedOx to it

Essentially, people wouldn't pay an arm and a leg to live in NYC and SF if they weren't desirable. I'm not sure how LA compares in terms of COL, but I guarantee its not Alabama-cheap. However, I agree that other parts of the country are indeed underrated.

ha.

Well I've given away my location many a time, and while it's not NYC expensive, I certainly could be living far cheaper than what I've got now. I'd love to live in NYC or SF but not enough to the point where I'd have to have shared an apartment to get through residency.

 

[titanmoon]

I never understood the chase for prestige in med schools. How many of us even know or care where our doctors went to school? Most of us get our doctor recommendations from other doctors, mostly our primary care physicians, and through word of mouth. The many doctor review sites these days also increasingly play a role. We go to the doctors we like, or have heard are good, no one I know go to a doctor because he/she went to a certain school.

As far as pay, a doctor's pay is mostly based on his/her specialty. The main thing that differentiates pay between two doctors of the same specialty working in the same hospital are their experience, record and popularity with patients, not where they went to school. I just don't see the advantage of killing yourself to go to a particular school because of their US News ranking.

Seems to me it's more important to go to a school near where you would eventually like to obtain your residency, that way you can gain exposure to and establish contacts with the area hospitals during med school. Medicine is an incredibly level playing field. Your record speaks for itself. Where you went to school is irrelevant.

 

[WingedOx]

There is frequently an inverse correlation between academic prestige and earning power.

Yeah, you beat me to it.

About a year before I showed up, a senior guy at my program got a pretty high up position at MGH and had an open invitation for anyone from my department to come with him. Those who stuck around said that while the professional opportunities at MGH would have been great, the compensation just wasn't worth it for them to uproot their families and settle in Boston... which is pretty impressive given that faculty where I trained were comically underpaid.

While the big shot academic places may not pay much as a base salary, having a Harvard faculty tag can certainly help you make money in outside pursuits. Publishers will give you a book deal to print just about any pretentious incoherent rambling from a "harvard doctor". How else do you explain Jerome Groopman?

 

[stemingen]

Yeah, you beat me to it.

While the big shot academic places may not pay much as a base salary, having a Harvard faculty tag can certainly help you make money in outside pursuits. Publishers will give you a book deal to print just about any pretentious incoherent rambling from a "harvard doctor". How else do you explain Jerome Groopman?

Insider observation, the compensation for writing academic books is not attractive at all considering the required hours and effort. Textbooks for under graduate level lectures, maybe not so bad; the rest don't hold much guarantee for additional income.

 

[WingedOx]

Insider observation, the compensation for writing academic books is not attractive at all considering the required hours and effort. Textbooks for under graduate level lectures, maybe not so bad; the rest don't hold much guarantee for additional income.

Mostly I'm referring to the "How Doctors Think" type stuff. (or Atul Guwande, who I actually enjoy)

But yeah, a guy I work with is the author of one of the major psychiatry med student review books. It makes money but it's a labor of love.

 

[stemingen]

Mostly I'm referring to the "How Doctors Think" type stuff. (or Atul Guwande, who I actually enjoy)

But yeah, a guy I work with is the author of one of the major psychiatry med student review books. It makes money but it's a labor of love.

Atul Guwande is my one of my favorite physician writers too! I remember listening to one of his interviews @ NPR, truly inspiring practitioner, educator and writer.

 

[WedgeDawg]

There are a few

1) many of the top schools tend to have more lax grading schemes. This means that you don't have to put as much time into studying to get that H and can pursue things that interest you (another degree, research, theater, community service, teaching, etc)

2) connections. Lots of competitive fields are very small and a lot of the powerhouses in academics in these fields will be affiliated with these institutions. If you have one of these guys vouching for you during residency apps, it's a lot easier to get into a competitive residency. It also means you don't need AOA to match into ENT, neurosurgery, ortho, derm, urology, etc.

3) inbreeding. In all specialties, a lot of top hospitals (MGH, NYP, JHH, etc) like taking their own med students for residency, or like taking med students from similar institutions (so places like Yale will send a lot of students to Harvard hospitals, etc). This is especially important if you want to be in academics or pursue a top fellowship

4) this is more subjective, but the students at these places are some of the most impressive people I've ever seen in my life and I honestly can't begin to tell you how lucky I am to call them my friends and colleagues

5) research. If you want to get involved in really high powered research, this is the place to do it. These schools also have a lot of funding for research in med school, so it's really really easy to do.

6) case diversity. Even as a first year, I've gotten to see patients who have diseases that have fewer than like 100 reported cases ever. That's pretty cool.

7) maybe this is silly but it's kind of awesome to sit back and think "wow, I go to medical school at X how sweet is that?"

edit: typo

 

[mimelim]

There are a few

1) many of the top schools tend to have more lax trading schemes. This means that you don't have to put as much time into studying to get that H and can pursue things that interest you (another degree, research, theater, community service, teaching, etc)

2) connections. Lots of competitive fields are very small and a lot of the powerhouses in academics in these fields will be affiliated with these institutions. If you have one of these guys vouching for you during residency apps, it's a lot easier to get into a competitive residency. It also means you don't need AOA to match into ENT, neurosurgery, ortho, derm, urology, etc.

3) inbreeding. In all specialties, a lot of top hospitals (MGH, NYP, JHH, etc) like taking their own med students for residency, or like taking med students from similar institutions (so places like Yale will send a lot of students to Harvard hospitals, etc). This is especially important if you want to be in academics or pursue a top fellowship

4) this is more subjective, but the students at these places are some of the most impressive people I've ever seen in my life and I honestly can't begin to tell you how lucky I am to call them my friends and colleagues

5) research. If you want to get involved in really high powered research, this is the place to do it. These schools also have a lot of funding for research in med school, so it's really really easy to do.

6) case diversity. Even as a first year, I've gotten to see patients who have diseases that have fewer than like 100 reported cases ever. That's pretty cool.

7) maybe this is silly but it's kind of awesome to sit back and think "wow, I go to medical school at X how sweet is that?"

#1 Isn't really true. Undergrads for sure, but pretty much every medical school has relatively lax grading, especially with more and more going Pass/Fail for pre-clinicals.

#2 The first part is true, but you don't need to be AOA to match most of those, even in the most competitive fields %AOA is <40%. (Except derm which is ~50%)

#3 True.

#4 Not subjective. True.

#5 True.

#6 State schools and schools at major referral centers see their fair share of zebras. A 'top' medical school has little to do with it.

#7 True.

In short, by far the biggest determinant of what specialties you will be able to go into and how far you will go is you. This is why you have plenty of examples of residents coming from lower tier schools to competitive specialties and competitive programs. But, school quality matters. Look at the allo forums. Half of the complaints are about things that are not standard at all schools or are a reflection of poor management/bad opportunities. This is not eliminated in their entirety at top schools, but certainly lower. The key is that your success is going to hinge on your ability to maximize your abilities at whatever school you go to and also matching what exactly your career aspirations are. Harvard doesn't help everyone do that.

 

[Law2Doc]

#1 Isn't really true. Undergrads for sure, but pretty much every medical school has relatively lax grading, especially with more and more going Pass/Fail for pre-clinicals.

#2 The first part is true, but you don't need to be AOA to match most of those, even in the most competitive fields %AOA is <40%. (Except derm which is ~50%)

#3 True.

#4 Not subjective. True.

#5 True.

#6 State schools and schools at major referral centers see their fair share of zebras. A 'top' medical school has little to do with it.

#7 True.

In short, by far the biggest determinant of what specialties you will be able to go into and how far you will go is you. This is why you have plenty of examples of residents coming from lower tier schools to competitive specialties and competitive programs. But, school quality matters. Look at the allo forums. Half of the complaints are about things that are not standard at all schools or are a reflection of poor management/bad opportunities. This is not eliminated in their entirety at top schools, but certainly lower. The key is that your success is going to hinge on your ability to maximize your abilities at whatever school you go to and also matching what exactly your career aspirations are. Harvard doesn't help everyone do that.

I would say #4 is not only extremely subjective but if OP were at another place he'd still be impressed by his colleagues and saying he would put them up against students of any school.

And #3 is partly true -- in that there's truth to the statement that people may get an opportunity to stay on if they were well regarded as a student. but it isn't as all encompassing as you might think reading SDN, and isn't even always a good idea. In some fields you benefit from cross pollination and working with more people.

I won't comment much on #7 other than to suggest that nobody really needs bragging rights beyond becoming a doctor, and there will hopefully be other things in your life which far outshine this achievement, regardless of where you guy. Peaking in getting into a med school is as bad as the guy peaking by making the high school football squad.

I'd say #5, research opportunities, is the legitimate biggie on the list, but again it's kind of a question of where you want to end up. If you want to be the ortho guy doing a couple dozen hips a week and making bank, the Harvard education is overkill. If you want to teach residents about rare zebras, it matters more.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I would say #4 is not only extremely subjective but if OP were at another place he'd still be impressed by his colleagues and saying he would put them up against students of any school.

Perhaps. Maybe not all schools, but several for sure.

And #3 is partly true -- in that there's truth to the statement that people may get an opportunity to stay on if they were well regarded as a student. but it isn't as all encompassing as you might think reading SDN, and isn't even always a good idea. In some fields you benefit from cross pollination and working with more people.

My school in particular has a penchant for inbreeding. Whether or not this is a good thing is up for debate, but I would imagine that the students who match back here generally did so because they wanted to and are very happy with their placement.

I won't comment much on #7 other than to suggest that nobody really needs bragging rights beyond becoming a doctor, and there will hopefully be other things in your life which far outshine this achievement, regardless of where you guy. Peaking in getting into a med school is as bad as the guy peaking by making the high school football squad.

Hey, I said it was silly. I just find it humbling to, when I'm feeling overwhelmed, to take a step back and think "wow. I really go here and am studying medicine here. Whatever happens next, this is truly an amazing experience and I should really appreciate and take advantage of it while I can". Give me a bit of perspective. Not saying you can't do this at other schools too. I just happen to really like mine.

I'd say #5, research opportunities, is the legitimate biggie on the list, but again it's kind of a question of where you want to end up. If you want to be the ortho guy doing a couple dozen hips a week and making bank, the Harvard education is overkill. If you want to teach residents about rare zebras, it matters more.

I think you get some self-selection for future academics at top schools.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

ha.

Well I've given away my location many a time, and while it's not NYC expensive, I certainly could be living far cheaper than what I've got now. I'd love to live in NYC or SF but not enough to the point where I'd have to have shared an apartment to get through residency.

I wouldn't be surprised if transplants are at least somewhat responsible for increasing NYC's COL, particularly in Manhattan. I mean, even Pats fans can feel right at home here:

 

[Psai]

Pedigree matters. It's much easier to get an interview from a competitive residency in a competitive area if you're coming from a top medical school.

 

[thirtysixorabove]

A doctor I shadowed once told me that going to a big name medical school definitely makes a difference in the very beginning of your career (residency etc). However, as you continue on, your reputation starts to stand on its own.