Signing outside the match

Discussion in 'Internal Medicine and IM Subspecialties' started by Dawg_MD, Dec 8, 2002.

  1. Dawg_MD

    Dawg_MD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2002
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know there has been a lot of talk about the future of signing with programs outside of the match, but what is the policy of doing this as it stands now?
     
  2. Thread continues after this sponsor message. SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. summertime

    summertime Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    As far as I know, it is technically against the rules for internal medicine programs to go outside the match, although I know for a fact it happens at some places (I won't name names). Pathology is the only specialty I know of that is allowed to utilize the match but still sign students outside the match (I also know this for a fact, I know someone who has done it already). Some of the more competitive residencies, like Neurosurgery, that may only have 1 spot for the year at a particular program, can choose not to participate in the match and just directly sign up someone if there is already an agreement made. Can't answer your question completely though, because I don't know if Internal Medicine will ever officially be allowed to go outside the match (although it'd be nice if it was).
     
  4. Jon@COMP

    [email protected] Junior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2000
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to NRMP rules, it is illegal for allopathic students to sign outside the match. However, osteopathic and foreign medical students can sign outside the match. I, for one, have received an offer from a California Internal Medicine progrm.
     
  5. Dawg_MD

    Dawg_MD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2002
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the responses.

    Happy Holidays!
     
  6. ss00991

    ss00991 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2002
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jon,
    In what way did the residency approach you in trying to get you to sign up outside the match? How do you handle the situation if you are made an offer from a program that you are very interested in, but it not your top choice.
     
  7. abu barney

    abu barney resident revolutionary

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2001
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    1
    Any word of schools which have offered prematches this year?
     
  8. Apollyon

    Apollyon Screw the GST
    Physician Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2002
    Messages:
    18,926
    Likes Received:
    3,137
    I'm an FMG, and I did most of my third year at the Long Island College Hospital, in Brooklyn Heights, NY. That program has 35 first-year spots (20C, 15P), and signs everyone outside the match. Is the program weak? They get 3600 applicants per year...a 100:1 ratio lets you get some fine doctors.

    Ah, just checked...they have 7C and 3P spots in this year's match.
     
  9. Celiac Plexus

    Celiac Plexus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    7
    Status:
    Fellow [Any Field]
    Basing the strength of any program based on the # of apps is faulty. While 3600 apps is a lot, you would have to have more informatin on the overall quality of the applicants to make any credible statements about how "weak" a program is.

    For example, how many of those apps are FMGs? What are their grades like? Their letters, etcetera... Consider that a program like Harvard may get 3600 or more apps but because they have rigorous screening criteria, they might only truly consider less than 100 applicants. Whereas, your program in NY may grant interviews to individuals who wouldn't have a shot at the better programs.

    I know of one surgery program that received around 300 apps, but about 1/2 were from FMGs... Since they implied that they do not grant interviews to FMGs, that reduced the applicant pool considerably. Then when you consider that they have additional Step I cutoff/grade cutoff criteria, the pool is even smaller.
     
  10. Apollyon

    Apollyon Screw the GST
    Physician Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2002
    Messages:
    18,926
    Likes Received:
    3,137
    My point is that, like any stat, with a bigger sample space, you will find more outlyers. Your implication is that the FMG's are inferior is accurate to a point, in that some of the weakest candidates cast a large net, but, with 100 applicants for every spot, you can throw 90 away, and still have a good choice to go from.

    Moreover, in Brooklyn Heights, patients wouldn't put up with bad doctors.

    Yes, there are a lot of FMG's in this program, but the board pass rate (from ABIM) is better than NYU, Columbia, and Cornell.

    More applicants is always better than not enough.
     
  11. Ctrhu

    Ctrhu Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2002
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    1
    That's unbelievable.
     
  12. BellKicker

    BellKicker Twisted Miler

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes Received:
    1
    All rigth. Everyone needs some clearing up here, I think.

    Pre-matches will become illegal as of next year (for programs that participate in the match). Period. Regardless of specialty.

    Now, I've heard that some very weak programs might opt to fill entirely outside the match (as a few do already). These are obviously programs that have problems filling up.

    Pre-matches have been (and still are) very common in "weak" specialties. Although I'm no expert, I would wager that 25% of all IMGs find their residencies that way. As a side note, a pre-match is also legal for a US grad if he's not applying while still in school.

    Later.
     
  13. Dawg_MD

    Dawg_MD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2002
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    The last time I checked with someone from the National Board of Medical Examiners, he said that the issue of signing outside of the match was far from settled due to the fact that many hospitals depend on being able to sign their students outside of the match to fill their programs. According to this individual, these hospitals carry alot of weight when it comes to making this decision, partly because of their shear numbers. Since I am the one who originally posted the question, I am not going to pretend to have all of the latest info, but I think your post about it being illegal as of next year might be a little misguided and premature.
     
  14. Apollyon

    Apollyon Screw the GST
    Physician Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2002
    Messages:
    18,926
    Likes Received:
    3,137
  15. Apollyon

    Apollyon Screw the GST
    Physician Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2002
    Messages:
    18,926
    Likes Received:
    3,137
    Yep - you're in the match, you're ALL in the match. The political problem is that, with this perspective ("in or out"), your big, busy, inner-city, FMG hospitals might very well say "out", and this rocks the stability of the match program.

    One theoretical way around this would be multiple parallel programs in the same hospital - one in the match, and one not. There would be minor cosmetic differences to get around the ACGME balking at this same scheme (ie, they are NOT the same program - see the differences in the times that teaching rounds are? How the one program takes 4 weeks of vacation, whereas the other is divided into 2 2 week blocks?, and other "major" differences), and a little bit of a "blind eye" turned towards this. Just a thought.

    This is true, too - I know two current residents (both USFMG's) that were offered prematches in Cat IM at two different hospitals, declined them - and ended up matching at each one anyhow! Go figure.
     

Share This Page