Slightly depressed over job prospects, career

[tylus1]

Just wanna say thanks in advance.

I'm from a decently high ranking school but I've never been the overachieving stereotypical med student. I'm currently in my final year and I've never really fit in with the crowd in my cohort. It often feels like I'm the only student without a strong drive and direction. Lifestyle vs specialization has been a huge topic constantly in the back of my mind.

I came into medicine with an idealistic mindset wanting to do something meaningful. I was quite motivated initially but it slowly faded away as the realities of a 70-80 hour work week hit. Facing classmates who gossip and judge others everyday also makes me question what this profession is all about. There is a strong sense of elitism and it's not unique to my class. I just don't feel that it's going to be a nice working environment.

Not looking forward to starting work.

Anyone else feels the same way?

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[Dr.Jekyll75]

This is a very subjective issue. In my opinion, your outlook in the profession will be shaped by the people youre around. I know some residents who actually make me look forward to working certain specalities that would not be on my list normally. Then theres Docs who kill all of my ambition for a field just best of the way they act. Youre not alone, the moral of my post is go to a program where you feel welcome and like the people you work with

 

[tylus1]

This is a very subjective issue. In my opinion, your outlook in the profession will be shaped by the people youre around. I know some residents who actually make me look forward to working certain specalities that would not be on my list normally. Then theres Docs who kill all of my ambition for a field just best of the way they act. Youre not alone, the moral of my post is go to a program where you feel welcome and like the people you work with

Thanks. i completely agree with that. There's always at least one of those guys around, but as my supervisor mentioned, it's more about how well you fit into the team.

I guess my main issue is that of a lack of motivation. Over the years my initial drive to chase a meaningful career has evaporated and evolved into working hard for the initial few years so that i can retire early. It's even gone to the extent of skipping classes to travel and relax. I've managed to get through each year with decent grades through last minute cramming. As i get closer to graduation and actual work, i'm worried that the last minute cramming that has gotten me through so far wouldn't hold up in practice and on call.

How do you guys stay motivated and if there's any tips on studying smart yet comprehensively, do let me know for i'm sure to need it.

 

[SunsFun]

Just wanna say thanks in advance.

I'm from a decently high ranking school but I've never been the overachieving stereotypical med student. I'm currently in my final year and I've never really fit in with the crowd in my cohort. It often feels like I'm the only student without a strong drive and direction. Lifestyle vs specialization has been a huge topic constantly in the back of my mind.

I came into medicine with an idealistic mindset wanting to do something meaningful. I was quite motivated initially but it slowly faded away as the realities of a 70-80 hour work week hit. Facing classmates who gossip and judge others everyday also makes me question what this profession is all about. There is a strong sense of elitism and it's not unique to my class. I just don't feel that it's going to be a nice working environment.

Not looking forward to starting work.

Anyone else feels the same way?

Hang in there! I very much get where you’re coming from, as I was to a large extend a stereotypical gunner/gossiper/snob that you’ve described, in the beginning of this journey. I still am a work-in-progress but I do try to at least do the right thing most of the time. A lot of it is due to immaturity or a lack of insight. Just because someone is smart and a good test-taker doesn’t mean they have it all figured out in life.

A reality of this profession has hit me really hard as well and has definitely brought me to my knees searching for purpose to continue. In the process, I have changed dramatically, as did many of my classmates who started out like me. From my standpoint, the people who end up burning out are the ones who retained that entitled mentality and continue to feel like they are getting screwed from all sides.

Keep up the good work and don’t loose your faith in people. You will find yourself surrounded with like-minded individuals soon enough.

 

[Rads312]

As you've probably heard so much just about everywhere, "it gets better" - I dealt with a lot of idiots in medical school, and even intern year. That being said, i've formed some amazing, lasting friendships and really enjoy hanging out with my co-residents and attendings.

Sure, it's easier to say that when you're in radiology, derm , etc as opposed to general surgery, etc. but just make sure to rank a residency program where the people seem happy. I've had a couple rough weeks where i've worked 70ish hours, but typically I work 50-60 and have good work life balance. Trust me, it's doable.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Thanks. i completely agree with that. There's always at least one of those guys around, but as my supervisor mentioned, it's more about how well you fit into the team.

I guess my main issue is that of a lack of motivation. Over the years my initial drive to chase a meaningful career has evaporated and evolved into working hard for the initial few years so that i can retire early. It's even gone to the extent of skipping classes to travel and relax. I've managed to get through each year with decent grades through last minute cramming. As i get closer to graduation and actual work, i'm worried that the last minute cramming that has gotten me through so far wouldn't hold up in practice and on call.

How do you guys stay motivated and if there's any tips on studying smart yet comprehensively, do let me know for i'm sure to need it.

I am only a M3 so take this with a grain of salt. You remind me alot of myself, i also got to this point where you are at now. The way i see it is that being a doc is a job like any other, it doesn't have to be meaningful at all. It provides a good income for you and whoever you are supporting. Thats the way you should think about in IMO. I have seen too many attending devote their life to medicine, which is a noble cause. Unfortunately all but one of them ended up with Divorces, depression and just no life outside the hospital. They are constantly at the hospital because thats the only place left were they feel belonging. So stay motivated by knowing its a job just like all others and you wanna do your best but you'll always have help when you need it so dont put too much pressure on yourself. Also do something daily that you find joy in, whether its working out , playing with your dog, or just sitting down and watching Netflix, do it without Feeling guilt!

 

[mr.applesauce]

Facing classmates who gossip and judge others everyday also makes me question what this profession is all about. There is a strong sense of elitism and it's not unique to my class. I just don't feel that it's going to be a nice working environment.

Not looking forward to starting work.

Anyone else feels the same way?

I'm in my first year and I noticed this very quickly. Are people so stressed that this is their way of entertaining themselves? Is this high school again? I don't know but I really hope the hospital life/culture isn't like that because I hate hate dabbling in gossip and judging.

 

[WhiteCoatWonder]

I'm in my first year and I noticed this very quickly. Are people so stressed that this is their way of entertaining themselves? Is this high school again? I don't know but I really hope the hospital life/culture isn't like that because I hate hate dabbling in gossip and judging.

hi there. as a nontrad, i felt like this going into medical school as well. im an introvert so i made it my business to step out of my personal sphere during m1 and found a lot of silly, immature behavior that turned me off from most of my classmates (ie complaining, gossiping, sheep think) so i found my own way.

getting onto the wards wasnt drastically different...many of the residents are okay but there is 100% a culture in the hospital and in amongst some residents that perpetuates that type of behavior. i spent time shadowing a resident that talked more about how she and her attending were like meredith and mcdreamy than anything surgical. also, my experience on ob was pretty stereotypical...see the movie “mean girls” for an idea of what i mean.

anyway, the point is, obviously everybodys experience is going to be different but if youre bothered by the behavior now...please dont expect a miraculous change as you progress. there are some good eggs but people are people and i believe that in medicine, some of these people have had to be such high achievers and so serious about their performance that they never get a chance to do the type of maturing that living real life as an adult can offer...so they act like kids, because thats what they know to do. its not everybody and you do not have to engage, but expect to be potentially ostracized by those who DO think and behave in the way you described.

i dont particularly take stock of what people think of me, especially when i know i work hard at being my best. i think the best thing ive learned to do is show up, bust your butt, ignore them and measure your own success.

 

[Lannister]

I'm in my first year and I noticed this very quickly. Are people so stressed that this is their way of entertaining themselves? Is this high school again? I don't know but I really hope the hospital life/culture isn't like that because I hate hate dabbling in gossip and judging.

In terms of the gossiping and judging, I don't think that's limited to medicine. I think that's just how a lot of people are. So no matter what field you go into, there's going to be a lot of gossiping and judging.

 

[WernickeDO]

To paraphrase Del Griffith in "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles": Like your job, love your spouse.

There is nothing at all wrong with picking a specialty that jives with the lifestyle you want to have. All the money in the world won't get you out of bed for the next 30 years.

Don't worry about your cohort. You will develop relationships with a few trusted colleagues and leave it at that.

Med school is a drop in the bucket of your medical career. The real education comes during residency and continues until you retire.

Medicine consumes your life in school and residency but will become part or a larger whole as you continue. Stay the course and you're good.

 

[BigRedBeta]

There are two main points you have to keep repeating to yourself:
1) Medicine gives you a lot more freedom to choose your career then it seems like at times...after residency.

2) Academic medicine is not all of medicine.

As far as the first point goes, in many situations you get to choose how you want to practice, where you want to live, and how hard you want to work. When I was a med student, I had two preceptors in internal medicine that really demonstrated this, both of which graduated from the same residency program at our medical school a year apart. One still saw his own patients in the hospital, triple booked himself and his PA every 15 minutes from 1030 (despite the fact that he never made it back from morning rounds before 11:15) to 5pm with no lunch break, frequently working in sick visits even if it meant that it was the 5th patient in a time slot. He routinely sent me home as the sub I after 630p and would work until 8 to finish charts. He also had the vacation homes in Florida and Aspen and wasn't shy about his lifestyle. The second had the hospitalist service see all his inpatients, only booked one patient per 20 minute slot, took a 90 minute lunch break, and trying to work a sick visit in threw his office into chaos. He routinely complained about decreasing reimbursement and how he couldn't afford to take medicare/medicaid patients any more and that I should only go into concierge medicine. Both were beloved by their patients but their own satisfaction with their career were clearly evident.

Regarding the second, once you're out of training, there is a degree of liberation and again freedom to surround yourself with people you enjoy.

 

[Tenk]

Work is work. You should work to live and play. Not work just to work. Sounds like you realized this before many of your classmates. Great! Overall, you should just find whatever specialty you hate the least and work enough to afford the lifestyle you want. It's the people who don't develop things outside of work that will work themselves to death.

 

[Stagg737]

Work is work. You should work to live and play. Not work just to work. Sounds like you realized this before many of your classmates. Great! Overall, you should just find whatever specialty you hate the least and work enough to afford the lifestyle you want. It's the people who don't develop things outside of work that will work themselves to death.

Not worded in the most positive way, but the bolded is a bottom line that can't be emphasized enough.

Yes, there are those people that are truly passionate about the job they're doing and remain that way for most or all of their career. However, while most the docs I know do enjoy most of their job, it's not their real passion in life. The nice part about medicine is that it's not hard to make a decent salary, and you can make 6 figures working part-time in pretty much any field. So unless you really value prestige and elitism, stop worrying about that. Find a field you enjoy (or at least one you can stand), get through residency, and then find a career path that works for you. Imo, the worst part about medicine is the financial and time investments you have to make to get to that point.

 

[mr.applesauce]

The nice part about medicine is that it's not hard to make a decent salary, and you can make 6 figures working part-time in pretty much any field.

Please list these reported fields that offer this lol

 

[Perrotfish]

I was quite motivated initially but it slowly faded away as the realities of a 70-80 hour work week hit.

There are exactly 4.5 years of mandatory 80 hour weeks. MS3, the first half of MS4, and residency. Most people don't even do 80 hour weeks all the way through residency, but if you do it will stop on 30Jun of MMS3. After you choose your hours, and most people choose 40 to 50nunless they elect to do more training, which you don't have to do.

. Over the years my initial drive to chase a meaningful career has evaporated and evolved into working hard for the initial few years so that i can retire early.

FWIW I felt the same.way, starting in mid MS3 and continuing through the end of residency. Then when I became an attending I found out I actually do like this job. I just only like it when I am working less than 60 hours per week in a good work enviornment.

 

[DO2015CA]

Please list these reported fields that offer this lol

6 figures means 100k. Partime is also less than 35 hours/week. You can do urgent care as a family doctor and make 100k working that schedule

 

[Perrotfish]

Please list these reported fields that offer this lol

You can do this working three day a week in Pediatrics, or one day a week of ED.

 

[Stagg737]

Please list these reported fields that offer this lol

Literally any field. Say you're making $80/hr (less than the average for every single field). Assuming you work 50 weeks/year, you only have to work 25 hours per week to hit 100k. Most fields will pay closer to $120-150/hr. At that rate you only have to work 13-16 hours per week to make 100k. If you're not making 100k as a doc, you're either very charitable, very lazy, or very financially stupid.

 

[Roxas]

Literally any field. Say you're making $80/hr (less than the average for every single field). Assuming you work 50 weeks/year, you only have to work 25 hours per week to hit 100k. Most fields will pay closer to $120-150/hr. At that rate you only have to work 13-16 hours per week to make 100k. If you're not making 100k as a doc, you're either very charitable, very lazy, or very financially stupid.

I agree with your post wholeheartedly, but money becomes a bigger concern for many of us looking at 300k or more in loans. Even with a 200k income, trying to support a family and pay off loans can take many years

 

[Stagg737]

I agree with your post wholeheartedly, but money becomes a bigger concern for many of us looking at 300k or more in loans. Even with a 200k income, trying to support a family and pay off loans can take many years

Absolutely, I was just pointing out that the "100k salary in medicine!?! lol" comment was an ignorant one.

 

[J ROD]

I hate to tell you this but I have been in several other lines of work and the gossip/BS is there too. It is not special to medicine. It is just special to human nature. I try and stay out of it but sometimes I even get caught up in it. Now, not all programs are a competition. I imagine a more academically competitive program would have more folks that think their **** does not stink and they are the smartest human to ever walk this earth. I would try and avoid these. I interviewed at several places like this and felt like I needed to get the measuring tape out to see who had the biggest peen in the room women included. I generally found myself more happy with residents predominantly from Caribbean or other countries. They were not so cut throat and more friendly and had a hard road to just get a residency position. SO, I ranked programs more on where and who I wanted to be with than academic stature. One caveat I would mention is this could be a problem if you want an academic position. But, I surely do not so in the end you just need a solid program with good clinical exposure. And remember this too shall pass!

 

[Rads312]

You can quite literally work 2 8 hour days a week in teleradiology, from home, and make 100k, probably more. most 40 hour teleradiologists make 350ish.

 

[NickNaylor]

You do you. I don't get sucked into all the drama and interpersonal BS because I'm focused on 1) providing the best quality of care I can to the people that I'm taking care of, 2) being as kind as I possibly can to the people I work with, and 3) being the best possible physician I can. Focus on what drives you and is important to you and you will likely find a new sense of satisfaction from your work.

Many of the things you complain about are rooted in human nature and they aren't things you're going to escape. For some reason people seem to think that because your peers are, theoretically, intelligent and ambitious people there are no problems to be had. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You will still run into surprisingly stupid and surprisingly lazy physicians. That has no bearing at all on the kind of physician that you want to be or the kind of care that you want to provide for your patients.

And by the way, if you're focused on doing the best that you possibly can, people will notice. Stay above the riff raff and you will rise to the top. Once you get into residency and "the real world," academic performance and crushing exams becomes substantially less important than being responsible, doing your work well, and actually taking care of patients. It's a very different world beyond medical school.

 

[Doctor-S]

Yes, I recall those moments in school. FWIW, some friendly suggestions:

If you're starting to feel pangs of discontent and career discouragement as a medical student, it might be useful to balance "life" with other activities (that are not related to medicine), plus foster friendships (with other individuals who are not employed in the medical profession and with whom you share some common interests).

You can try to evaluate the pros-and-cons of "lifestyle vs. specialty" by being a reasonably good detective, with "you" as your sole client.

If you're unsure about certain things (e.g., clinical hours, spare time, income), feel free to meet with docs in private and ask them what they like/dislike about their chosen specialties. Listen closely and feel free to ask questions. Although some docs are full of themselves ... others are not.

[Ditto for many other professions (e.g., law, finance, rock artists, reality show performers). There is no guarantee that the grass is greener on the other side; it's just a different pasture on the other side.]

Lastly, when you're surrounded by gossipy people, kindly feel free to quietly walk away because it's likely you've got better things to do with your time and your mind. Your actions will speak volumes: r-e-s-p-e-c-t and p-r-o-f-e-s-s-i-o-n-a-l-i-s-m.

Bottom line: your life is meaningful because you're a good doc and you're a good doc for patients who depend on you for their care and treatment. That's what matters in real life after school.

 

[justabanana]

I don't see much of the gossiping or elitism personally. I'm sure it's not unique to your class, but I just haven't seen it in my state school. I don't like that stuff either, so I'll be avoiding academic/prestigious programs. There's no shortage of down to earth docs in the community.

The hours have been dragging me down lately. For me, the work days actually goes fast. It's kind of engaging and even a 15 hour day never really seems to drag for me. The problem is how bitter I feel when I get home and have to go to bed right away. Sadly, my genetics make it so that I feel fatigued with red itchy eyes on <7.5hr of sleep. <6 and I'm a zombie the next day. I've found a lot of my peers sleep less, which means extra hours of home time. The idea of residency is something I'm dreading a bit, because I already want more free time. Still, something I keep reminding myself is that it's only difficult if you think it should be easy. Your resistance to your life situation is actually much worse than the situation itself.

In addition to knowing I'll be avoiding academic/prestigious programs, I've also significantly narrowed my career options down using the following chart. Good luck. We're all gonna make it, brah.

 

[anbuitachi]

I don't see much of the gossiping or elitism personally. I'm sure it's not unique to your class, but I just haven't seen it in my state school. I don't like that stuff either, so I'll be avoiding academic/prestigious programs. There's no shortage of down to earth docs in the community.

The hours have been dragging me down lately. For me, the work days actually goes fast. It's kind of engaging and even a 15 hour day never really seems to drag for me. The problem is how bitter I feel when I get home and have to go to bed right away. Sadly, my genetics make it so that I feel fatigued with red itchy eyes on <7.5hr of sleep. <6 and I'm a zombie the next day. I've found a lot of my peers sleep less, which means extra hours of home time. The idea of residency is something I'm dreading a bit, because I already want more free time. Still, something I keep reminding myself is that it's only difficult if you think it should be easy. Your resistance to your life situation is actually much worse than the situation itself.

In addition to knowing I'll be avoiding academic/prestigious programs, I've also significantly narrowed my career options down using the following chart. Good luck. We're all gonna make it, brah.

Is the chart per year?

 

[justabanana]

Is the chart per year?

Yep. From a 2011 Jama article. Vascular surgeons leading the pack by a lot. Of note, vascular surgeons also lead the pack in suicidal ideation.

 

[thestrugglingturtle]

My father is an academic physician. He loves his work and life. He loves it so much, he told me, "I never want to retire." He travels a lot, does a lot of research, teacher medical school students, residents and fellows.

A lot of the people he works with hate their life and job. They are miserable. He tells me, if you love medicine, you will love being a doctor, if you don't like medicine, you will hate it. At 65, he has the energy of a 35 year old.

 

[anbuitachi]

My father is an academic physician. He loves his work and life. He loves it so much, he told me, "I never want to retire." He travels a lot, does a lot of research, teacher medical school students, residents and fellows.

A lot of the people he works with hate their life and job. They are miserable. He tells me, if you love medicine, you will love being a doctor, if you don't like medicine, you will hate it. At 65, he has the energy of a 35 year old.

I disagree. Too much of being a doctor today is not true medicine. It's filling paperwork/Emr. I like watermelon but I don't like it when it's mixed in roach juice. Being a doctor includes medicine and so much more. Each person is different and their jobs will be different. Perhaps your dad is already accomplished , a professor or something, who's early years didn't include 250k in debt and 70 percent of the work being paperwork. I think being accomplished in academic medicine let's you skip a lot of BS (eg having people do the paperwork for you etc) but not everyone will get there

 

[thestrugglingturtle]

I disagree. Too much of being a doctor today is not true medicine. It's filling paperwork/Emr. I like watermelon but I don't like it when it's mixed in roach juice. Being a doctor includes medicine and so much more. Each person is different and their jobs will be different. Perhaps your dad is already accomplished , a professor or something, who's early years didn't include 250k in debt and 70 percent of the work being paperwork.

His nurses and physician assistant do all paperwork.

 

[allantois]

His nurses and physician assistant do all paperwork.

That’s nice for somebody who is both in a high-paying specialty AND who doesn’t have much to chart . Not gonna happen in primary care as well as most other fields.

 

[allantois]

Absolutely, I was just pointing out that the "100k salary in medicine!?! lol" comment was an ignorant one.

Your calculations are fine from a mathematical point of view, however you can’t just choose to work 1x a week in most specialties. And you might not end up choosing EM as your specialty.

 

[Donald Juan]

Your calculations are fine from a mathematical point of view, however you can’t just choose to work 1x a week in most specialties. And you might not end up choosing EM as your specialty.

I agree it's not as simple as looking at the salary of someone working 60 hours/week making 500k, and assume that you can just work 6 hours a week and make 50k. However, it is very reasonable to be a physician who works 20-30 hours/week and expect to make 100-150k/year in almost every field.

 

[SunsFun]

I don't see much of the gossiping or elitism personally. I'm sure it's not unique to your class, but I just haven't seen it in my state school. I don't like that stuff either, so I'll be avoiding academic/prestigious programs. There's no shortage of down to earth docs in the community.

The hours have been dragging me down lately. For me, the work days actually goes fast. It's kind of engaging and even a 15 hour day never really seems to drag for me. The problem is how bitter I feel when I get home and have to go to bed right away. Sadly, my genetics make it so that I feel fatigued with red itchy eyes on <7.5hr of sleep. <6 and I'm a zombie the next day. I've found a lot of my peers sleep less, which means extra hours of home time. The idea of residency is something I'm dreading a bit, because I already want more free time. Still, something I keep reminding myself is that it's only difficult if you think it should be easy. Your resistance to your life situation is actually much worse than the situation itself.

In addition to knowing I'll be avoiding academic/prestigious programs, I've also significantly narrowed my career options down using the following chart. Good luck. We're all gonna make it, brah.

Just a personal observation here, but the students whose very first question is how many hours a week do you have to work as (usually surgical subspecialty) seem to find themselves miserable and complaining no matter what field they go into.