SLU Rescinds Acceptance to Hearing Impaired Student

Do you have a link to an online article? I would very much like to read about this one...

-JmE-

 

quite frankly, i'm disgusted by SLU right now.

 

Let me say a couple of things here:
1) This is really, really, sad.

2) It was probably the right choice, no matter how bad a taste it leaves in one's mouth.

Auscultation (MW: : the act of listening to sounds arising within organs (as the lungs) as an aid to diagnosis and treatment) is very important to the practice of medicine. I'm not sure she coulda been a good doctor w/o that capacity.

Still, this is a reminder of the difficulties the disabled face on a day to day basis. There's no doubt that she has a lot to offer to the field of medicine.

 

moreover, i believe most acceptances are given on the condition that the applicant be physically able to perform certain duties.

on a further note, this opens up another spot for SLU hopefuls.

 

Yes, she should not go into surgery or EM medicine. However, I assume she is intellectually qualified to be in medical school. There are a lot of fields she could have gone into that does not need top notch hearing.

If the story is what it appears to be, it is rather disgusting.

 

Recently I caught the tail-end of a program on t.v. where they were filming students at match day (I don't remember the name of the program and I don't think that I caught the program in time to see which school was being filmed) and there was a student who was deaf (who used a hearing aid, but did rely somewhat on reading lips) who had matched into her first choice- some hospital for the deaf. I was in awe of that student- what an achievement! Anyhow, we obviously don't know the specifics regarding this situation, but I just don't understand how they can rescind the acceptance now when they most likely knew of her condition to begin with (I find it hard to believe that the school did not know she was deaf- she did have an interview there).

 

This is the first thing that sprang to mind. While it's very sad that she wasn't able to go to med school this year, I would like to know if she misrepresented herself on her application?? (And for the person who said that she got through the interviews "OK", it's one thing to be able to get through interviews, but it's another to go through school, etc...).

Let's say that she did misrepresent herself or omit information, then I can't dis SLU. (Which I am guessing may be the case because why would SLU take action now?)

I would like to know both sides to the story.

But....if there were an entry on the application as to if she were able to perform certain duties without aid or with aid and if she didn't check the correct box, then that's misrepresentation. {BTW, isn't there a check box like this on the AMCAS application?}

What if someone convicted of a violent crime didn't admit this on their application and was able to "hide" their violent behavior during the interview process, but then hit someone on the first day of classes?

Before anyone flames me for comparing a violent person to a hearing-disabled person, that's not what I'm doing! But I am pointing out that a student is supposed to fill out their application correctly because some aspects (whether it's physical ability or past experiences with the law...) may be an indicator of the future....or just simply may be a factor of which the school should be aware.

And sadly, if this is the case (which I don't know and am just thinking out loud), then there are consequences for misrepresenting oneself on an application.

And the school may not have detected how severe her hearing problem was by conducting an interview with her. I know someone with hardly any hearing in 1 ear and not much more in the other ear, and it would be hard to tell that this person had that hearing condition just by talking to them in an interview, if they had on their hearing aid.

 

The show was Houston medical. She required an interpreter during all her classes and even when talking to her fellow classmates. She could not peform patient examinations without an interpreter and even required an interpreter in the operating room while delivering a baby. I agree with Lady MD in that disclosing this information is very important. Many special arrangements must be made in order to educate a deaf physician. I'm thinking that this SLU student failed to reveal this information. However, I can also understand why SLU would choose to declare a deaf individual unfit to become a physician.

 

On another note, this student on the tv show had a specially designed stethescope that had an amplified signal so that she could hear and diagnose.

 

AMCAS does not ask for disability information.

 

"However, I can also understand why SLU would choose to declare a deaf individual unfit to become a physician."

And it may not even have been that. To reiterate what you said (and what I said), maybe it was more that she failed to reveal vital information....which could've thrown off their preparations for her special accomodations, or simply showed that she was less than truthful on her application.

But just to clarify, I'm using "IFs, because I don't know what happened, and haven't heard both sides, and am just surmising.

 

The OP said that she was 95% deaf *without* hearing aids.... I would wonder how her hearing is with correction. If she can hear well enough to be able to diagnose with the use of a hearing aid - what is the big deal? And like other people mentioned - hearing is important as a diagnostic tool - but not every medical specialty requires perfect hearing skills, does it?

 

I was thinking the same thing. She would have to be in a specialty that did not require as much "hearing" as the others.But what would that b ? Radiology or a specialty where she was more of a consultant. But still she would have to communicate with her co-workers...sooooo,I dunno.

 

In which newspaper is the news published?

 

Ok, so i have a couple of points... first, if the student DID NOT disclose that she was 95% deaf w/o hearing aids, that SLU did the right thing....

the amcas does ask if you had to overcome any particular difficulties in achieving your education. it defines those difficulties or hardships as perhaps including ethnic background, socioeconomic class, disabilities, and other things. you would think that a student who is going to require extra assistance would answer yes to this question but, well, who knows.

I am going to strenuously object to the students who mentioned, implied, or, hell, even thought that a student with a serious hearing impairement is a less capable physician. students with disabilities provide a unique opportunity for the med school staff, administrators, other students and patients to come up with methods that allow all people with the intellectual capability, desire (and extra-curricular activities and MCAT scores) to achieve their goal of becoming physicians. a hearing impaired doctor (or any doctor that had to overcome difficulties like the ones listed above) may possess the unique ability to connect and understand certain patients better than those of us who have not had to overcome thos hardships (ie a hearing impaired doctor is a GREAT doctor for hearing impaired/deaf patients). it is up to the system to come up with ways to maximize this girls' potential.

the school in houston medical was willing to make the arrangements, SLU should be willing to do the same thing. 95% deaf w/o hearing aids does not mean that she will not be able to communicate with patients, other med students, attending physicians, etc. im sure her hearing aids help (obviously!). she was able to make her way through undergrad and had the communication skills to perform well during her interview. my cynical guess is that the school suddenly realized how much it was going to cost them.

i would be interested in reading the article. can someone post the URL?

thanks!

 

The OP didn't mention an article...

 

Hmm..very interesting. I too wonder if her disability was fully disclosed during her application process to the Saint Louis University admission committee. It would surprise me that they would rescind someone's acceptance down the line rather than prevent the whole fiasco after or even before the interview!

For anyone who has filled out SLU's secondary or viewed their admissions information, they plainly state their requirements be it physical, emotional, or intellectual. It seems unlikely they would admit someone who was unable to fulfill those requirements in the first place, especially if the adcoms had prior knowledge of those limitations.

Read the statements at http://medschool.slu.edu Go to the admissions area. I haven't read it in over a year, but I think it states the requirements of medical students.

Hope that helps and I hope some facts come out soon to work from.

wyldstyle

 

I'm just curious, did she have to hire this interpreter, or was the school forced to pay the tab because of the ADA regulations?

 

Everybody say it with me...DISCRIMINATION.

There are lots of fields in medicine that don't require much in the sense of hearing. Besides, aren't there also lots of deaf patients? And at least she's got a hearing aid. Come on!

 

I must say that I am disappointed in SLU, and I hope this student has a good lawyer. The article states that the condition was presented in the application and the medical school had full knowledge of it. If this is indeed true and they accepted the student even with this prior knowledge, they have no right to withdraw that acceptance when the student asks for accomodations for the disability the school knew about.

I agree that students with disabilities, if able to do the work of medical school sucessfully, should be given every right to practice medicine, with any aid they may need to do so. (ex. interpreters)
For many years I've struggled myself with a speech impediment (stuttering). Although this is mostly under control, it does show its face on occassion. It has been my experience that you gain a lot of respect for persevering in your chosen career path and making it, than giving up. I'll never say I had my doubts, as this girl certainly did, but I feel that some of these chronic problems can indeed make you a better physician and more understanding of chronic medical problems such as diabetes mellitus.

We can not expect all physicians to be super-human. Physicians must be human to be able to relate to their patients and their patients anxieties, fears, and diseases. If a physician detaches themselves from their patients, they will find themselves with no patients quickly. And by definition, if we are human, we are not perfect. I can't think of one example of a physician I know who is perfect. All have their faults and their weaknesses, but it is often these weaknesses that makes them good doctors.

Just my two cents


Mossjoh

 

It would be cool if a few of us could jump in on a pending lawsuit (which I think should be pursued), cuz it's gonna be hefty.

 

Which prompts me to think that the issue is how will the school provide something that they don't have the means to provide?

It sounds like she asked for accomodations after she got accepted that the school (which isn't public) didn't have the means to provide??

So my next question is whether or not the Government should give aid and provide the accomodations if a private institution isn't able to do? Isn't this why many kids with disabilities often go to *public* schools because they have the public funds at their disposal to provide accomodations that a private institution would otherwise not be able to provide?

From that article, it sounds like it was no one's "fault". But nevertheless, I really feel for Aruna.

 

I am a little confused about the issue. Expalin to me how she is going to be an effective physican with substantially no hearing. Will some other physician listen to the heart and lungs? Who is going to listen to the coughs? If she asks a kid how she got the bruise around her eye, who is going to hear the nuances (tone of voice) of the answer to determine whether abuse is the cause?

I feel sorry for the student, but her limitiation is serious and could put lives in harm's way. Being disabled doesn't mean that one should just roll over and die, but there are still limitiations. If my surgeon loses both hands in an accident, he is no longer competant to be a surgeon, even if he has great prostetic limbs.

If a pilot becomes blind in one eye, she can no longer be a pilot. That pilot still might be able to fly, technically, but the loss of vision will deminish the abiltity enough and lives are put at risk.

I don't see how everyone can be screaming lawsuit. This is not a joke.

 

Hi Everyone,

I am currently working in Rochester, NY and the company I work for employs 2 deaf physicians. There are a few additions to the offices for them... e.g. strobe lights linked with the door bell to the exam rooms... but they are fully functional family practice physicians. They also have the advantage of being able to commucate and understand many of the deaf patients.

It is true that they are not able to listen to lung sounds/heart sounds, however, technology today allows for physicians to examine without relying directly on their own senses (Since it isn't as standardizable anyways).

There was a study recently published (JAMA or NEJM) that evaluated many 4th year med students and interns. They found that the majority of new p[hysicians have no idea how to use a stethescope correctly! They all rely on EKGs, Echos, etc...

Something to think about!

Blues

 

Hi all. After reading the article, it specifically states that the school new before acceptance that she had a serious hearing loss. They had to know then (or at least have an idea) what kind of considerations they were going to have to make in order to ensure Aruna's success in medical school.

That being said, I would like to add that a hearing loss does not limit Aruna's ability to become a successful physician. Perhaps she should not become an ER doctor (everyone's mouths are covered with masks and timing is very critical) but she may be excellent at telling if a kids bruise is from abuse. Body language goes a long way. I am sure over the girls 22 years of being hearing impaired she has developed a number of strategies at understanding the nuances of people speech. She may communicate in the same way as someone with normal hearing, but that does not make it an inferior method of communication. It is simply different and should be recognized as such.

 

Hi Lolly,

I definitely agree that a hearing loss doesn't necessarily mean that Aruna can't become a successful physician.

But it sounds like the considerations that Aruna specifically requested were not what SLU had expected.

I'm not saying that her demands were unreasonable, but there was a lawsuit (that ended up going nowhere) in a local school district because a parent of a special-needs child was asking for too much from a non-public school that couldn't meet her demands.

Who knows what Aruna's demands were?? I would like to know because if SLU wasn't able to give into her demands, then both the school and the student would suffer and so they would *both* be better off if Aruna went elsewhere.

 

I just wanted to add that for the same reason we shouldn't be mad at Aruna for not being able to meet certain requirements; we shouldn't be mad at a school that has those same limitations.

We all have limitations....one way or another.

 

it seems to me that SLU could have asked her to defer until they were able to set up some of the requested accomodations or were able to get the money to set them up. just because a student makes a request is no reason to dismiss her. btw, educating deaf students and others with disabilities in schools where the vast majority of students are not disabled is very common these days. we had several deaf students in my organic chem class at Maryland and they had a sign language interpreter at lectures so they could take notes. East Carolina University School of Medicine was the first medical school in this country to graduate a hearing-impaired physician (not sure when). Tufts has several attending physicians who are in wheelchairs.

 

If the med school wants to set up special accomodations and help her out, then thats fine.

But I dont think its right that the school should be forced to pay out of their own pocket for these accomodations. It should be the school's option whether or not they will pay for it.

 

I am a little confused about the issue. Expalin to me how she is going to be an effective physican with substantially no hearing. Will some other physician listen to the heart and lungs? Who is going to listen to the coughs? If she asks a kid how she got the bruise around her eye, who is going to hear the nuances (tone of voice) of the answer to determine whether abuse is the cause?

The article states that she has substantial hearing loss w/o a hearing aid, the article does not tell us to what degree the hearing aid corrects her condition. I am assuming that if she made it through her education, MCAT's, and interviews, then she is most likely very capable to be a physician. Although I don't know this for sure, I am going to venture a guess and say that her hearing aid does a pretty decent job correcting her condition. If that weren't true, then I would find it really strange that the school didn't realize what they were getting into when they accepted her...how could this have slipped by during the interview? Another poster already mentioned that they manufacture stethoscopes for physicians who have hearing disabilities.


I feel sorry for the student, but her limitiation is serious and could put lives in harm's way. Being disabled doesn't mean that one should just roll over and die, but there are still limitiations. If my surgeon loses both hands in an accident, he is no longer competant to be a surgeon, even if he has great prostetic limbs.
If a pilot becomes blind in one eye, she can no longer be a pilot. That pilot still might be able to fly, technically, but the loss of vision will deminish the abiltity enough and lives are put at risk.

The school was well aware of her condition, and they most likely rescinded her acceptance due to demands placed upon the school by the woman. The school apparently did not feel that her condition would result in her putting her patients in harm's way. I don't know much about litigation, but I would venture a guess and say that this school may be in a lot of hot water.

I don't see how everyone can be screaming lawsuit. This is not a joke.

This is definitely not a joke. I always get pissed off when I read about frivolous lawsuits (i.e. the guy in NY that is suing the fast food chains for making him fat!), however, getting accepted into a medical school * that is informed of your condition upon acceptance*, and then having that acceptance taken away due to demands placed upon the school (I am venturing a guess here-I'm not sure) seems wrong to me. If the issue is special considerations, then I wonder what she asked for.

 

No it should not be tough. You didn't take her spot away. SLU did. And they won't give it back to her if you turn it down. They'll just give it to another person on the waitlist. If they call you, don't be an idiot -- just take it.

 

That is completely unprofessional on SLU's part. What does it matter if you have a hearing disability? This really tells me a lot about the type of medical institution SLU runs!

 

Okay. I'm not saying it doesn't suck for her. It does, and I think it is totally weak what SLU did. I'm just saying that there is no use trying to take the high road because there isn't a high road to take.

 

so sad, so sad

my question is- did the girl turn down public school acceptances to go to SLU? I know it's purely conjecture, but SLU could be in really hot water if that's the case, because they didn't inform her of their problem with accomodations when she withdrew from other schools (if that's the case)

i really feel bad for her.

 

I agree. Especially since SLU isn't a public University.

When a wheelchair-bound student is admitted to a med school, the student doesn't ask the school to buy them a wheelchair....instead they ask that their wheelchair be accomodated (i.e. wheelchair ramps which are the law...correct?). If SLU told Aruna that she could bring whatever accomodations that she needs (interpreter, hearing aids...), then SLU shouldn't have a problem in agreeing.

But perhaps she asked them to pay for that stuff. That's a totally different story.

Can you imagine if wheelchair-bound students demanded that the school pay for their wheelchair?

Or if someone who shattered their leg in a skiing accident demanded that the school pay for their crutches? Or worse yet, demanded that the school provide a person to walk beside them to class and carry their books?

It's sad when someone gets injured or has a disability, but a private school's responsibility shouldn't have to extend beyond them allowing the student to bring their own personal accomodations. They shouldn't be forced to provide the accomodations.

 

I'm going to get flamed for being the PC police but it always bugs me to hear this term and I know those who use the term have no idea how it comes across to the people they're referring to, so .... People who use wheelchairs for mobility really don't like to be referred to as "wheelchair-bound." They aren't TIED into their wheelchairs and they aren't stuck in one place. A more appropriate term is "wheelchair user."

And if you're thinking, "Geez, it's just a difference of one word," yep, and that one word makes a big difference to the person who's being described. In the lexicon of ethnic references, there are lots of examples of how one word makes a difference.

As for this situation, I am not sure if the fact that SLU is a private school makes a difference. Presumably they get federal funding (for example: subsidized Stafford loans for some of their students?) and so they must abide by federal law. I agree, we don't have all the information, but it is a disheartening story for sure.

 

Mamadoc - Until you posted that, I had actually thought that term sounded PC (compared to older terms like handicapped or crippled). It's hard to stay up on the PC vernacular.

They may have. But they may have told her that since her request was so last minute, that they can't accomodate her for this year. Perhaps she is taking that as an outright rejection (which it is, in a way, but through no fault of saint louis u.).

Can we agree her requests for special accomodations were last minute? Whatever they were, it sounds like they were made after she had her interviews and after she got accepted and then she said "I will need you to do X and Y and Z" and saint louis u. said that they couldn't do "X and Y and Z".

I doubt that saint louis medical ever had a deaf person in their med school recently. So it wasn't common to them. In fact, it may exist these days, but I don't know if I would call it "common".

Is this the U. of Maryland? Is that a state school? State schools get complete state funding. Correct? Whereas most private schools get only a little state funding.

If this were a State school and if she were attending an elementary, grade, or high school, then she could argue that her education is a necessity. But unfortunately for her, it's not and she's not.

 

I guess that for me to feel that SLU really wronged anyone, I want to hear of other deaf doctors that effectively treat their patients. Does anyone have examples or statistics? It seems to me that hearing is a very necessary part of medicine, just like sight is.

 

Hi all

here is a question for the group--do private institutions have to abide by federal ADA regulations??

I am not sure, but I belive the answer is yes. We can assume (i think that SLU does receive some federal funding and therefore must abide by all federal regulations. they cannot, for instance, refuse to admit women, people of african descent, etc. my understanding of ADA regulations are that they must provide reasonable accomodations for people with disabilities.

i can be sure that Aruna did not ask SLU to pay for her hearing aids in the same way that a wheelchair user does not ask the school to pay for her wheelchair. in both cases though, the students are within their rights to request for reasonable accomodations--i.e. sign language interpretor or a ramp, etc. regardless of whether the school is public or private.

since the school had knowledge of her hearing impairement, i think it was the schools responsibility to ask what accomodations she used as an undergrad (can we assume that she was simply requesting those same accomodations?? her hearing has not worsened since birth so it is logical that she requires only the same accomodations). the timing seems very odd to me--id like to know more about the conversations that occured between aruna, slu.

as for other successful doctors with hearing impairements, i can only direct everyone to the association for medical professionals with hearing loss:

http://www.amphl.org

i was doing a little research last night.

 

Is a Sign Language Interpretor a "reasonable accomodation"?

I would've thought that the school allowing her interpretor to sit in on the classrooms is the accomodation that the school should be required to make.

(If a student needs money to hire an interpretor, then shouldn't they apply for special Social Security from the government....what's that called? SSDI?)

But the school having to provide an interpretor is different than having to provide a ramp. A ramp is a one-time cost which can be used for any and all students who need it at any time ...now and in the future.

However, an interpretor is more akin to a SEEING-EYE DOG. A blind student would not demand a school to provide a Seeing-Eye Dog. A school isn't required to provide a personal Seeing-Eye Dog to every student who has sight problems. Why would they be required to provide an interpretor for every single student who has hearing problems?

What the school should be forced to do is to allow such seeing-eye dogs or interpretors in their classrooms. But not have to pay for them.

I'm sure there are great stories of doctors with 95% deafness without hearing aids who are successful. And while I really feel bad for this hearing-impaired student, I'm not sure her potential as a successful doctor is even an issue.

I think it is more about the student's requests for special accomodations. And perhaps how forthcoming she was in what she needed. For instance, I could write that I had an "arthritic back & hips" on my application. The school may expect me to bring a wheelchair to school or something along those lines. But they would probably be caught off guard if, at the last minute, I told them that I couldn't even sit up and had to be carted around on a stretcher everywhere. OK, that's an extreme example , but I'm just trying to show that a student disclosing that they're disabled is different than them being honest as to what they demand of the school if they attended. And if what they demand is more than what is reasonably needed, then that may make a school question how "forthcoming" the student really is.

But as everyone has said....we need more details of this particular case. But I have a feeling that she didn't just ask SLU to let her bring her interpretor to class....but asked them to pay for the interpretor as well.

 

it is difficult to speculate about the case based only the article given.

it does seem unusual that slu would rescind an acceptance for an apparently qualified student. however, i don't know that is it
reasonable to request a hearing interpreter at lecture if the student is capable of wearing hearing aids.

 

Man, SLU knew that she couldn't hear when they admitted her earlier this year, and only NOW take the acceptance away? That's lame.

I personally hate frivolous lawsuits, but that's not the situation here. She's got a legitimate case and I hope she sues the pants off SLU.

 

It really is hard to say whether or not it's legitimate without knowing all of the details and the facts.

I really would like to know what her demands were. If they were unreasonable, then it may not be legitimate.