So confused about patient contact

keepyourheadup · Sep 9, 2016

Hi everyone,

This is my first ever post here, though I've been lurking on SDN for the past year or so as an anonymous viewer. I'm a sophomore undergrad on a pre-med track and I learned some of the things that are expected of prospective med school applicants (i.e. good grades, MCAT score, volunteering, clinical experience, I'm nt gonna name all of them). But one thing that has boggled my mind is patient contact/care experience/exposure/whatever you want to call this. I've read a bunch of threads on SDN regarding this, and I've definitely learned a little bit more about the opportunities I can take advantage of, but the thing is, I don't have the time or the money to do some of these things. CNA and EMT are two certifications that come to mind, especially as some of my school's advisors heavily recommend either of these before applying to medical school. The thing is, both jobs are heavy commitments and require a lot of money and a decent amount of training; which is really too much to ask of me. I am a double major, taking around 18 credit hours; a commuter; and I can't really afford to have a job that requires me to pay for a rather expensive training program. I have other things on my mind, like student leadership, research, my classes, volunteering, and other extracurriculars, so I can't really delve into career paths requiring CNA and EMT without sacrificing other important things (and I don't think I'm too important/good for cleaning poop or other inconvenient tasks, I'd love to do them without having to pay hundreds of dollars and having the potential to delve into more purposeful patient care). I am also unfortunate because of the area I live in (Chicago-area), where pretty much every job requires prior experience and appropriate certifications. The only thing I can hope for is a job as a medical scribe, and I'm waiting for a spot to open up so I can be notified (I used some of those national scribe websites to apply for a position).

If it takes becoming an EMT or CNA to get a desirable job and make it to medical school, then I don't think I'll make it (even though im a 4.0 student who's impressing professors and is building up a great resume atm). My only shot at EMT is the summer after junior year (I'm studying abroad this summer) or during the school year (as a full-time student/commuter taking 16-18 credit hours), which could affect my grades and will be a financial burden on my family. What am I supposed to do about so called "patient contact exposure" or "patient contact experience"? I've done shadowing (50+ hours, 3 physicians), hospital general volunteering (500 hours w/ "leadership" position), and I might volunteer at a nursing home this year, and a free clinic in the summer (after my stud abroad experience). I might also be able to go on "mission trips" once or twice (possibly during my study abroad) before I apply after junior year, but thats it.

To all the helpful people on SDN: I would love to hear any advice you have for me, as I'm a lost pre-med sophomore who's making an effort to work hard to have great, relevant experiences (especially things I enjoy!) before applying to medical school. At this point, I will lack patient contact exposure, which may hurt my chances of getting into med school (I won't be taking the mcat until spring of 2018, so I'm just gonna assume I will get a score that's very common among applicants), and I would like some expert opinions or insight on what I can do to find an opportunity to be exposed to patients without being a burden on other aspects of my life (academics, financial, other extracurriculars). Thanks!!

baratheonfire · Sep 9, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
Hi everyone,

This is my first ever post here, though I've been lurking on SDN for the past year or so as an anonymous viewer. I'm a sophomore undergrad on a pre-med track and I learned some of the things that are expected of prospective med school applicants (i.e. good grades, MCAT score, volunteering, clinical experience, I'm nt gonna name all of them). But one thing that has boggled my mind is patient contact/care experience/exposure/whatever you want to call this. I've read a bunch of threads on SDN regarding this, and I've definitely learned a little bit more about the opportunities I can take advantage of, but the thing is, I don't have the time or the money to do some of these things. CNA and EMT are two certifications that come to mind, especially as some of my school's advisors heavily recommend either of these before applying to medical school. The thing is, both jobs are heavy commitments and require a lot of money and a decent amount of training; which is really too much to ask of me. I am a double major, taking around 18 credit hours; a commuter; and I can't really afford to have a job that requires me to pay for a rather expensive training program. I have other things on my mind, like student leadership, research, my classes, volunteering, and other extracurriculars, so I can't really delve into career paths requiring CNA and EMT without sacrificing other important things (and I don't think I'm too important/good for cleaning poop or other inconvenient tasks, I'd love to do them without having to pay hundreds of dollars and having the potential to delve into more purposeful patient care). I am also unfortunate because of the area I live in (Chicago-area), where pretty much every job requires prior experience and appropriate certifications. The only thing I can hope for is a job as a medical scribe, and I'm waiting for a spot to open up so I can be notified (I used some of those national scribe websites to apply for a position).

If it takes becoming an EMT or CNA to get a desirable job and make it to medical school, then I don't think I'll make it (even though im a 4.0 student who's impressing professors and is building up a great resume atm). My only shot at EMT is the summer after junior year (I'm studying abroad this summer) or during the school year (as a full-time student/commuter taking 16-18 credit hours), which could affect my grades and will be a financial burden on my family. What am I supposed to do about so called "patient contact exposure" or "patient contact experience"? I've done shadowing (50+ hours, 3 physicians), hospital general volunteering (500 hours w/ "leadership" position), and I might volunteer at a nursing home this year, and a free clinic in the summer (after my stud abroad experience). I might also be able to go on "mission trips" once or twice (possibly during my study abroad) before I apply after junior year, but thats it.

To all the helpful people on SDN: I would love to hear any advice you have for me, as I'm a lost pre-med sophomore who's making an effort to work hard to have great, relevant experiences (especially things I enjoy!) before applying to medical school. At this point, I will lack patient contact exposure, which may hurt my chances of getting into med school (I won't be taking the mcat until spring of 2018, so I'm just gonna assume I will get a score that's very common among applicants), and I would like some expert opinions or insight on what I can do to find an opportunity to be exposed to patients without being a burden on other aspects of my life (academics, financial, other extracurriculars). Thanks!!

Become a scribe?

Goro · Sep 9, 2016

EMTs are generally considered to be glorified taxi drivers.

I suggest that you figure out how to better manage your time.

There's no law that says you have to go to med school at age 21, either.

rossatron7 · Sep 9, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
Hi everyone,

This is my first ever post here, though I've been lurking on SDN for the past year or so as an anonymous viewer. I'm a sophomore undergrad on a pre-med track and I learned some of the things that are expected of prospective med school applicants (i.e. good grades, MCAT score, volunteering, clinical experience, I'm nt gonna name all of them). But one thing that has boggled my mind is patient contact/care experience/exposure/whatever you want to call this. I've read a bunch of threads on SDN regarding this, and I've definitely learned a little bit more about the opportunities I can take advantage of, but the thing is, I don't have the time or the money to do some of these things. CNA and EMT are two certifications that come to mind, especially as some of my school's advisors heavily recommend either of these before applying to medical school. The thing is, both jobs are heavy commitments and require a lot of money and a decent amount of training; which is really too much to ask of me. I am a double major, taking around 18 credit hours; a commuter; and I can't really afford to have a job that requires me to pay for a rather expensive training program. I have other things on my mind, like student leadership, research, my classes, volunteering, and other extracurriculars, so I can't really delve into career paths requiring CNA and EMT without sacrificing other important things (and I don't think I'm too important/good for cleaning poop or other inconvenient tasks, I'd love to do them without having to pay hundreds of dollars and having the potential to delve into more purposeful patient care). I am also unfortunate because of the area I live in (Chicago-area), where pretty much every job requires prior experience and appropriate certifications. The only thing I can hope for is a job as a medical scribe, and I'm waiting for a spot to open up so I can be notified (I used some of those national scribe websites to apply for a position).

If it takes becoming an EMT or CNA to get a desirable job and make it to medical school, then I don't think I'll make it (even though im a 4.0 student who's impressing professors and is building up a great resume atm). My only shot at EMT is the summer after junior year (I'm studying abroad this summer) or during the school year (as a full-time student/commuter taking 16-18 credit hours), which could affect my grades and will be a financial burden on my family. What am I supposed to do about so called "patient contact exposure" or "patient contact experience"? I've done shadowing (50+ hours, 3 physicians), hospital general volunteering (500 hours w/ "leadership" position), and I might volunteer at a nursing home this year, and a free clinic in the summer (after my stud abroad experience). I might also be able to go on "mission trips" once or twice (possibly during my study abroad) before I apply after junior year, but thats it.

To all the helpful people on SDN: I would love to hear any advice you have for me, as I'm a lost pre-med sophomore who's making an effort to work hard to have great, relevant experiences (especially things I enjoy!) before applying to medical school. At this point, I will lack patient contact exposure, which may hurt my chances of getting into med school (I won't be taking the mcat until spring of 2018, so I'm just gonna assume I will get a score that's very common among applicants), and I would like some expert opinions or insight on what I can do to find an opportunity to be exposed to patients without being a burden on other aspects of my life (academics, financial, other extracurriculars). Thanks!!

baratheonfire said:
Become a scribe?

He/she already addressed this.

You can get valuable patient contact through volunteering positions. Contact local hospital volunteering departments and find out what positions could potentially provide patient exposure. For example, I was able to volunteer on a surgical step-down floor. Most of the work was housekeeping-type tasks, but I was also able to answer patients' call lights, walk with patients, etc.

baratheonfire · Sep 9, 2016

rossatron7 said:
He/she already addressed this.

You can get valuable patient contact through volunteering positions. Contact local hospital volunteering departments and find out what positions could potentially provide patient exposure. For example, I was able to volunteer on a surgical step-down floor. Most of the work was housekeeping-type tasks, but I was also able to answer patients' call lights, walk with patients, etc.

Tbh I didn't read every word of that giant blob of text. You gave some pretty good advice though.

keepyourheadup · Sep 9, 2016

baratheonfire said:
Become a scribe?

I would love to become a scribe! But what if that isn't possible? Like, what if there's a job opening and someone gets the job cuz they're older, have an EMT/CNA or something to give them an advantage. Being a scribe is the ideal goal, but I don't expect to get this job, despite how passionate/willing I am to be one.

Goro said:
EMTs are generally considered to be glorified taxi drivers.

I suggest that you figure out how to better manage your time.

There's no law that says you have to go to med school at age 21, either.

Why can't I go to med school at age 21? I know it's too early to say this, but what if I get a stellar MCAT score, grades, and good ECs all around (research background, publications/presentations on research, student leadership, double major in Biology and Spanish, graduating with a 4.0 and honors, community volunteering, social activism/innovation are some of the things I could/will accomplish by the time I'm 21).
I don't want to "target" specific schools and jump through all the hoops needed to be considered for a particular school: I want to be the best well-rounded student I can be, and doing it by 21 is best because I don't want to waste extra years trying to get the education/job I'm aiming for when I'm already in a pretty good spot (when speaking generally). Maybe I didn't provide enough information, but I manage my time pretty well during the school considering my average commute time is 90 minutes (both ways), maintained a 4.0 in my first year of college to the point where I impressed like 4-5 professors, and I'm involved in clubs and activities (some of which I'm a leader or on the executive board). I kinda slacked in the summer (only shadowed doctors at a private oncology clinic) but I made sure I would keep nearly every second of my life busy as soon as school started (which is the case).How the heck am I supposed to get an EMT/CNA license when I've got all of these things going on, and my next summer is going to be very busy. In some of the threads I've read on SDN, some people got these opportunities without having a certificate. I think its impossible to get a patient contact job without a certificate in Chicago, but if there's a job out there I can do that doesn't require a certificate that's actually worthwhile, I would love to know about this job. I still appreciate your response!

Seriously though, the medical schools that do care about this stuff should specifically say that they're looking for EMT/CNA certified individuals with part time jobs on their belts so that unnecessary time and money spending can be prevented.

baratheonfire · Sep 9, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
I would love to become a scribe! But what if that isn't possible? Like, what if there's a job opening and someone gets the job cuz they're older, have an EMT/CNA or something to give them an advantage. Being a scribe is the ideal goal, but I don't expect to get this job, despite how passionate/willing I am to be one.
.

Dude just apply to enough places and you WILL get the job. I was lucky enough to get a position with Scribe America on my 1st shot, since my location is a new contract. But if you apply to a bunch of companies or even independent clinics, you can definitely find someone willing to hire you. You probably need a car though.

libertyyne · Sep 9, 2016

What about people who work jobs to support themselves and their families? There was a friend who was making 18 dollars an hour working IT and interviewed for a cna position which paid 9 at the time. This cut would have prevented him from paying for school and living expenses. What would you recommend he do ?

happyducky · Sep 9, 2016

If you're willing to take a gap year, medical scribing is an awesome experience and so is medical interpretation if you can speak Spanish fluent enough. Volunteering at a hospitals, hospices or nursing homes , even if it's just pushing patients in wheelchairs to their destinations; they all show good service ethics. Honestly, I think what most schools look for is dedication of service to others, especially to those less fortunate - not necessarily direct contact with patients in clinical settings. You can volunteer at a community center by tutoring kids who are struggling with ESL or academics, help out at local food banks, etc. There are ample opportunities to be exposed to people who may one day be your patients.

LizzyM · Sep 9, 2016

@keepyourheadup You've done 500 hours of volunteering in a hospital. Have you been close enough to the patients to call that a clinical experience? (see sig line) That isn't going to be enough for (cough)Rush (cough) but it will be enough for other schools.

libertyyne said:
What about people who work jobs to support themselves and their families? There was a friend who was making 18 dollars an hour working IT and interviewed for a cna position which paid 9 at the time. This cut would have prevented him from paying for school and living expenses. What would you recommend he do ?

Someone who is going to give up $18/hour to pay $50K/yr (or more) to study medicine better be damn sure that this is the right move. Getting a feel for the environment and the hierarchy is very important. A person can throw away years of their life going after a career they won't enjoy when all is said & done. I am reminded of Panda Bear who was a memorable contributor to this board for years. He was a civil engineer and Marine who ended up very unhappy in family medicine and later in emergency medicine. Destroyed his marriage in the process, IIRC. Don't be that guy.
At the very least, someone should be willing to get into the environment as a shadow and a volunteer and have some very frank conversations with candid physicians who are willing to be honest about what the profession is all about.

rossatron7 · Sep 9, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
Why can't I go to med school at age 21?

@Goro isn't saying you can't, but that it's not the end of the world if you don't. Med school will still be there when you're 22, 23, 40...you get the idea.

Hospitalized · Sep 9, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
Hi everyone,

This is my first ever post here, though I've been lurking on SDN for the past year or so as an anonymous viewer. I'm a sophomore undergrad on a pre-med track and I learned some of the things that are expected of prospective med school applicants (i.e. good grades, MCAT score, volunteering, clinical experience, I'm nt gonna name all of them). But one thing that has boggled my mind is patient contact/care experience/exposure/whatever you want to call this. I've read a bunch of threads on SDN regarding this, and I've definitely learned a little bit more about the opportunities I can take advantage of, but the thing is, I don't have the time or the money to do some of these things. CNA and EMT are two certifications that come to mind, especially as some of my school's advisors heavily recommend either of these before applying to medical school. The thing is, both jobs are heavy commitments and require a lot of money and a decent amount of training; which is really too much to ask of me. I am a double major, taking around 18 credit hours; a commuter; and I can't really afford to have a job that requires me to pay for a rather expensive training program. I have other things on my mind, like student leadership, research, my classes, volunteering, and other extracurriculars, so I can't really delve into career paths requiring CNA and EMT without sacrificing other important things (and I don't think I'm too important/good for cleaning poop or other inconvenient tasks, I'd love to do them without having to pay hundreds of dollars and having the potential to delve into more purposeful patient care). I am also unfortunate because of the area I live in (Chicago-area), where pretty much every job requires prior experience and appropriate certifications. The only thing I can hope for is a job as a medical scribe, and I'm waiting for a spot to open up so I can be notified (I used some of those national scribe websites to apply for a position).

If it takes becoming an EMT or CNA to get a desirable job and make it to medical school, then I don't think I'll make it (even though im a 4.0 student who's impressing professors and is building up a great resume atm). My only shot at EMT is the summer after junior year (I'm studying abroad this summer) or during the school year (as a full-time student/commuter taking 16-18 credit hours), which could affect my grades and will be a financial burden on my family. What am I supposed to do about so called "patient contact exposure" or "patient contact experience"? I've done shadowing (50+ hours, 3 physicians), hospital general volunteering (500 hours w/ "leadership" position), and I might volunteer at a nursing home this year, and a free clinic in the summer (after my stud abroad experience). I might also be able to go on "mission trips" once or twice (possibly during my study abroad) before I apply after junior year, but thats it.

To all the helpful people on SDN: I would love to hear any advice you have for me, as I'm a lost pre-med sophomore who's making an effort to work hard to have great, relevant experiences (especially things I enjoy!) before applying to medical school. At this point, I will lack patient contact exposure, which may hurt my chances of getting into med school (I won't be taking the mcat until spring of 2018, so I'm just gonna assume I will get a score that's very common among applicants), and I would like some expert opinions or insight on what I can do to find an opportunity to be exposed to patients without being a burden on other aspects of my life (academics, financial, other extracurriculars). Thanks!!

I sucked it up and have been a hospital housekeeper for a few years. Life changing experience. Talked with a patient for 20 minutes today about random stuff and her experience with the healthcare system. It's hard work... cleaning rooms, pushing beds, throwing trash, breaking down boxes, overall just GRUNT work. But it's worth it for those moments I get to share with patients. I'd wager 75%+ of premeds are too entitled to do a job like housekeeping, though.

Edit: No certifications or anything to be a housekeeper. If you're serious about cleaning up ****, just apply. There's always spots open.

libertyyne · Sep 9, 2016

LizzyM said:
@keepyourheadup You've done 500 hours of volunteering in a hospital. Have you been close enough to the patients to call that a clinical experience? (see sig line) That isn't going to be enough for (cough)Rush (cough) but it will be enough for other schools.

Someone who is going to give up $18/hour to pay $50K/yr (or more) to study medicine better be damn sure that this is the right move. Getting a feel for the environment and the hierarchy is very important. A person can throw away years of their life going after a career they won't enjoy when all is said & done. I am reminded of Panda Bear who was a memorable contributor to this board for years. He was a civil engineer and Marine who ended up very unhappy in family medicine and later in emergency medicine. Destroyed his marriage in the process, IIRC. Don't be that guy.
At the very least, someone should be willing to get into the environment as a shadow and a volunteer and have some very frank conversations with candid physicians who are willing to be honest about what the profession is all about.

i believe he spent about 100 hours volunteering in hospitals. The question was more along the lines extensive quality experience when his socieoeconomic background did not allow him to work in a position that although would have gained him great clinical exposure would not have paid the bills. I am reminded of medical mission trips, that seems like a great thing to put on an amcas application. But being able to not work and spend thousands of dollars to buy clinical exposure and "humanitarian"credibility is not within the reach of many.

libertyyne · Sep 9, 2016

Hospitalized said:
I sucked it up and have been a hospital housekeeper for a few years. Life changing experience. Talked with a patient for 20 minutes today about random stuff and her experience with the healthcare system. It's hard work... cleaning rooms, pushing beds, throwing trash, breaking down boxes, overall just GRUNT work. But it's worth it for those moments I get to share with patients. I'd wager 75%+ of premeds are too entitled to do a job like housekeeping, though.

Edit: No certifications or anything to be a housekeeper. If you're serious about cleaning up ****, just apply. There's always spots open.

do adcoms consider that clinical exposure? is volunteer transporting also clinical exposure

Hospitalized · Sep 9, 2016

libertyyne said:
do adcoms consider that clinical exposure? is volunteer transporting also clinical exposure

I don't know what's non-clinical about talking to patients every day and helping them with bedside tasks. I'm not CPR certified or anything but I will convince anyone that it is clinical exposure. I am also an ER scribe and I put housekeeping near or above the quality of experience.

LizzyM · Sep 9, 2016

libertyyne said:
i believe he spent about 100 hours volunteering in hospitals. The question was more along the lines extensive quality experience when his socieoeconomic background did not allow him to work in a position that although would have gained him great clinical exposure would not have paid the bills. I am reminded of medical mission trips, that seems like a great thing to put on an amcas application. But being able to not work and spend thousands of dollars to buy clinical exposure and "humanitarian"credibility is not within the reach of many.

You haven't been around long enough to know the distaste many of us have for those mission trips.

LizzyM · Sep 9, 2016

libertyyne said:
do adcoms consider that clinical exposure? is volunteer transporting also clinical exposure

Are you close enough to smell patients? I don't believe I smelled when I was a patient although I may have given that I had been unable to shower or bathe properly for weeks due to a fracture. I was transported to the front door by a volunteer when I was about to be discharged. I learned a lot about what it takes to operate a piece of hospital equipment (the wheelchair) which if misused can cause the patient discomfort (as in jamming my broken leg into several walls). I also saw that it takes selflessness to take a patient all the way to the curb and her family's car when the temperature is below freezing when one can dump her at the door and high tail it back into the warm hospital and let her fend for herself those last 15 feet. I also learned that some volunteers don't believe that patients are people who are capable or worthy of a bit of small talk while traveling on the elevator and through the halls. Even a bit of talk about the weather would have been welcome but the volunteer treated me like a piece of wood.

Clinical exposure is what you make it and you can learn to deal with old, sick, cranky, bored people who would really like to be somewhere else. That's the point. The experience, even if it is "just" housekeeping, is what you make it.

Goro · Sep 9, 2016

What is this fixation with EMT/CNA? They're not pre-reqs for hospital jobs, nor med school.

I would love to become a scribe! But what if that isn't possible? Like, what if there's a job opening and someone gets the job cuz they're older, have an EMT/CNA or something to give them an advantage. Being a scribe is the ideal goal, but I don't expect to get this job, despite how passionate/willing I am to be one.

Now you're sounding like my 10 year old. What if you flap your arms and fly to the moon? You didn't understand anything that I wrote, and you're talking about a stellar MCAT? Pay very careful attention to the CARS section.

Why can't I go to med school at age 21? I know it's too early to say this, but what if I get a stellar MCAT score, grades, and good ECs all around (research background, publications/presentations on research, student leadership, double major in Biology and Spanish, graduating with a 4.0 and honors, community volunteering, social activism/innovation are some of the things I could/will accomplish by the time I'm 21).

First off, it's very admitable to do what you've done and excel academically. My hat's off to you. But I have seen 4.0/MCAT people get rejected because they never thought it was important to get near enough to patients. Some of them never even set foot in a hospital other than to shadow. You've got plenty of time to demonstrate that you know what you're getting into. LizzyM has has written about someone (other than Panda, I think) who had minimal patient contact experience, got accepted somehow, and then bailed on Medicine when he found out how troublesome patients can be. All we're saying is, look before you leap.

I don't want to "target" specific schools and jump through all the hoops needed to be considered for a particular school: I want to be the best well-rounded student I can be, and doing it by 21 is best because I don't want to waste extra years trying to get the education/job I'm aiming for when I'm already in a pretty good spot (when speaking generally). Maybe I didn't provide enough information, but I manage my time pretty well during the school considering my average commute time is 90 minutes (both ways), maintained a 4.0 in my first year of college to the point where I impressed like 4-5 professors, and I'm involved in clubs and activities (some of which I'm a leader or on the executive board). I kinda slacked in the summer (only shadowed doctors at a private oncology clinic) but I made sure I would keep nearly every second of my life busy as soon as school started (which is the case).How the heck am I supposed to get an EMT/CNA license when I've got all of these things going on, and my next summer is going to be very busy. In some of the threads I've read on SDN, some people got these opportunities without having a certificate. I think its impossible to get a patient contact job without a certificate in Chicago, but if there's a job out there I can do that doesn't require a certificate that's actually worthwhile, I would love to know about this job. I still appreciate your response!

They're NOT looking that! Patient contact experience and service to others (especially those less fortunate than yourself.) That's what we're looking for.

Seriously though, the medical schools that do care about this stuff should specifically say that they're looking for EMT/CNA certified individuals with part time jobs on their belts so that unnecessary time and money spending can be prevented.

libertyyne said:
do adcoms consider that clinical exposure? is volunteer transporting also clinical exposure

keepyourheadup · Sep 9, 2016

Goro said:
What is this fixation with EMT/CNA? They're not pre-reqs for hospital jobs, nor med school...

Pay very careful attention to the CARS section...

First off, it's very admitable to do what you've done and excel academically. My hat's off to you. But I have seen 4.0/MCAT people get rejected because they never thought it was important to get near enough to patients. Some of them never even set foot in a hospital other than to shadow. You've got plenty of time to demonstrate that you know what you're getting into. LizzyM has has written about someone (other than Panda, I think) who had minimal patient contact experience, got accepted somehow, and then bailed on Medicine when he found out how troublesome patients can be. All we're saying is, look before you leap...

They're NOT looking that! Patient contact experience and service to others (especially those less fortunate than yourself.) That's what we're looking for...

Thanks for your responses to my wordy messages. Ok, I'll stop glorifying EMT/CNA licenses! I actually started improving my reading comprehension (for the sake of CARS) by actually reading things that make me think lol. I'm gonna explore more unconventional strategies as I have about an estimated year and a half before my exam date. But here's me again on my soapbox.

To be honest, I can't share every single thing about myself on a forum, otherwise everyone would be reading pages and pages. And I'm not trying to use this as an excuse to justify why I'm still right and everyone else is wrong, but instead to say that everyone comes from a different perspective. There aren't many reasons why one should go into medicine and become a doctor, but here are mine: to teach medicine, to serve communities in need (especially profound ethnic communities, i.e. Hispanic, African-American, South Asian, etc.), and to specialize in addiction medicine and/or related fields in hopes to save lives/change lifestyles of many people. I want to serve the needs of others through medicine, and so far, the only classes that I really give a d*mn about are the ones that will help me get there (research writing, physiology, etc.). I didn't want to bring up personal ambitions cuz that will make me sound cocky, but it is what it is.

I am going to try volunteering at a local crisis center, even if it's 30 minutes away. I'm gonna try to get a job as a medical scribe, even if i would have to drive an hour to get to my job. I will volunteer at a free clinic that's 50 miles away, or somewhere in Chicago that would be 1+ hours away. I already wanted to do at least one of these things because they intrigued me on their own And maybe you're not trying to tell me to overwhelm myself, but you can never play it too safely with them. But that's how badly I want to be a doctor. I've seen enough of my grandparents (who live with me) suffering through diabetes (2) and heart problems; Im pretty sure I've seen enough from shadowing and volunteering at a hospital, and from the courses I've taken to know that within STEM, I want to excel at medicine. Nothing else speaks to me greater, and i highly doubt that anything else will make me happier. So, I'm pretty d*mn sure I want to be a doctor, and as early as I possibly can.

Thanks again for your response. Perhaps I was looking for a cookie-cutter program to help me get that, but in reality, that isn't possible. In my circumstances, it seems that nothing is going to be (even slightly) convenient. But I guess I'll thank myself later if everything pans out and the workload in med school doesn't feel so burdensome (that is, if I even get there).

keepyourheadup · Sep 9, 2016

LizzyM said:
Are you close enough to smell patients? I don't believe I smelled when I was a patient although I may have given that I had been unable to shower or bathe properly for weeks due to a fracture. I was transported to the front door by a volunteer when I was about to be discharged. I learned a lot about what it takes to operate a piece of hospital equipment (the wheelchair) which if misused can cause the patient discomfort (as in jamming my broken leg into several walls). I also saw that it takes selflessness to take a patient all the way to the curb and her family's car when the temperature is below freezing when one can dump her at the door and high tail it back into the warm hospital and let her fend for herself those last 15 feet. I also learned that some volunteers don't believe that patients are people who are capable or worthy of a bit of small talk while traveling on the elevator and through the halls. Even a bit of talk about the weather would have been welcome but the volunteer treated me like a piece of wood.

Clinical exposure is what you make it and you can learn to deal with old, sick, cranky, bored people who would really like to be somewhere else. That's the point. The experience, even if it is "just" housekeeping, is what you make it.

OP here. In my 500 hours of volunteering, I guess most/all of it lacks "clinical exposure" (I do clerical things, guiding visitors, delivering medications/medical supplies, checking in radiology patients). But yes, I've smelled many patients that I've discharged (I discharge about 3-5 a week in a 4 hour shift); yes I talk to almost all of the patients I discharge, even if it's about the weather; I'm so always as polite as possible, and I usually let the discharged patients let out their thoughts (as they're the ones overjoyed from being able to leave the hospital). I've escorted/wheeled my fair share patients to the ER, some of whom had extreme conditions. I've talked to some in languages other than English, which also shows my cultural understanding (I'm heavily involved in interfaith, intercultural stuff at school if that is relevant at all). I was even my hospital shift's supervisor (for 11 months), as appointed by the volunteer coordinator (as they didn't have anyone hired for our shift), which meant I was mainly responsible for making sure all the other volunteers were doing their job correctly.

What I described sounds great, but in no way does this quality as clinical experience, does it? I would think it's laughable to suggest this sort of hospital volunteering as a "clinical experience"

And patient contact is more/less of: taking patient histories with the patient, cleaning after patients, talking to patients in-bed or while in transport, pet therapy/speech therapy programs, drawing blood, taking vitals, working at a nursing home/orphanage, free clinic volunteering, ER tech, paramedic tasks (I must be missing a bunch of other ways) right? Housekeeping seems like an intriguing option, though I would hope that the job isn't very time-demanding (I wouldn't want to spend more than 10 hours a week cleaning, as doctors don't necessarily clean).

FutureOncologist · Sep 9, 2016

Why not be a volunteer at an ED a few hours each week? Stop thinking of everything as "I need X hours here, and I need Y hours doing this..." Most schools want to see the experience and what you got out of it, not how many hours you dedicated to changing linens and asked patients if they wanted any blankets, water, soda, etc. You get a single space to put the amount of hours/time you put into it. However, you have anywhere from 700 to 1250 characters/words to describe what you got out of it.

Don't spend money you don't have on s**t you don't need (i.e. licensing in CNA/EMT.) That's budgeting 101.

baratheonfire · Sep 9, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
OP here. In my 500 hours of volunteering, I guess most/all of it lacks "clinical exposure" (I do clerical things, guiding visitors, delivering medications/medical supplies, checking in radiology patients). But yes, I've smelled many patients that I've discharged (I discharge about 3-5 a week in a 4 hour shift); yes I talk to almost all of the patients I discharge, even if it's about the weather; I'm so always as polite as possible, and I usually let the discharged patients let out their thoughts (as they're the ones overjoyed from being able to leave the hospital). I've escorted/wheeled my fair share patients to the ER, some of whom had extreme conditions. I've talked to some in languages other than English, which also shows my cultural understanding (I'm heavily involved in interfaith, intercultural stuff at school if that is relevant at all). I was even my hospital shift's supervisor (for 11 months), as appointed by the volunteer coordinator (as they didn't have anyone hired for our shift), which meant I was mainly responsible for making sure all the other volunteers were doing their job correctly.

What I described sounds great, but in no way does this quality as clinical experience, does it? I would think it's laughable to suggest this sort of hospital volunteering as a "clinical experience"

And patient contact is more/less of: taking patient histories with the patient, cleaning after patients, talking to patients in-bed or while in transport, pet therapy/speech therapy programs, drawing blood, taking vitals, working at a nursing home/orphanage, free clinic volunteering, ER tech, paramedic tasks (I must be missing a bunch of other ways) right? Housekeeping seems like an intriguing option, though I would hope that the job isn't very time-demanding (I wouldn't want to spend more than 10 hours a week cleaning, as doctors don't necessarily clean).

It fits the exact definition of clinical experience. You're a volunteer with no training. None of your work is going to be anything more than menial tasks. Of course, you could put a "hidden value" spin on it. I did that for a few essays.

keepyourheadup · Sep 9, 2016

FutureOncologist said:
Why not be a volunteer at an ED a few hours each week? Stop thinking of everything as "I need X hours here, and I need Y hours doing this..." Most schools want to see the experience and what you got out of it, not how many hours you dedicated to changing linens and asked patients if they wanted any blankets, water, soda, etc. You get a single space to put the amount of hours/time you put into it. However, you have anywhere from 700 to 1250 characters/words to describe what you got out of it.

Don't spend money you don't have on s**t you don't need (i.e. licensing in CNA/EMT.) That's budgeting 101.

I'm glad you feel the same about CNA/EMT. I guess I'll give it a try, but from what I heard about the ED at the hospital I currently volunteer at, they pretty much only restock supplies (but the description of the job says otherwise). Still, though, that isn't an excuse to not give it a shot. I guess it won't hurt to give at least 6 months commitment; maybe it'll turn out to have more patient contact than what I already do.

keepyourheadup · Sep 9, 2016

baratheonfire said:
It fits the exact definition of clinical experience. You're a volunteer with no training. None of your work is going to be anything more than menial tasks. Of course, you could put a "hidden value" spin on it. I did that for a few essays.

But I thought everyone, or a lot of people, who apply to medical school already do this? What's the point of emphasizing discharging patients as an act of "patient contact" when others are going to impress adcoms with their stories about their CPR life-saving incident, their **** cleaning and tending to an admitted patient, or their work as an ER tech? I get that any patient contact experience is good if you can make it meaningful yourself, but I can't accept that as a valid clinical experience.

Or, maybe I've been brainwashed by all the threads I read that highly encourage CNA/EMT-related jobs.

But seriously, I'm sorry if I sound like some selfish jerk that only wants to have patient contact as a means of getting to med school. I'm just trying to rationalize and consider everyone's input in order put myself in the best situation possible (I don't wanna break my back in the process of doing school+commuting+ECs+potentially several hours weekly of "patient contact").

baratheonfire · Sep 9, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
But I thought everyone, or a lot of people, who apply to medical school already do this? What's the point of emphasizing discharging patients as an act of "patient contact" when others are going to impress adcoms with their stories about their CPR life-saving incident, their **** cleaning and tending to an admitted patient, or their work as an ER tech? I get that any patient contact experience is good if you can make it meaningful yourself, but I can't accept that as a valid clinical experience.

Or, maybe I've been brainwashed by all the threads I read that highly encourage CNA/EMT-related jobs.

But seriously, I'm sorry if I sound like some selfish jerk that only wants to have patient contact as a means of getting to med school. I'm just trying to rationalize and consider everyone's input in order put myself in the best situation possible (I don't wanna break my back in the process of doing school+commuting+ECs+potentially several hours weekly of "patient contact").

I don't think you're selfish lol. I personally believe "hands-on" hospital work is really overhyped. It's all a big circlejerk IMO, but you have to play the game.

Goro · Sep 9, 2016

This is exactly what volunteer clinical experience is!

The whole idea is to be around patients, not practicing Medicine on them.

In my 500 hours of volunteering, I guess most/all of it lacks "clinical exposure" (I do clerical things, guiding visitors, delivering medications/medical supplies, checking in radiology patients). But yes, I've smelled many patients that I've discharged (I discharge about 3-5 a week in a 4 hour shift); yes I talk to almost all of the patients I discharge, even if it's about the weather; I'm so always as polite as possible, and I usually let the discharged patients let out their thoughts (as they're the ones overjoyed from being able to leave the hospital). I've escorted/wheeled my fair share patients to the ER, some of whom had extreme conditions. I've talked to some in languages other than English, which also shows my cultural understanding (I'm heavily involved in interfaith, intercultural stuff at school if that is relevant at all). I was even my hospital shift's supervisor (for 11 months), as appointed by the volunteer coordinator (as they didn't have anyone hired for our shift), which meant I was mainly responsible for making sure all the other volunteers were doing their job correctly.

What I described sounds great, but in no way does this quality as clinical experience, does it? I would think it's laughable to suggest this sort of hospital volunteering as a "clinical experience"

That's NOT what clinical volunteers do! OK, problem solved.

And patient contact is more/less of: taking patient histories with the patient, cleaning after patients, talking to patients in-bed or while in transport, pet therapy/speech therapy programs, drawing blood, taking vitals, working at a nursing home/orphanage, free clinic volunteering, ER tech, paramedic tasks (I must be missing a bunch of other ways) right?

NotYou20 · Sep 9, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
words

Personal Care Assistants make better money than scribes in my area and it's an easy job to get (again in my area). Zero qualifications needed. You don't get "patient" experience as you aren't in a hospital or clinic (with a few exceptions) but I listed it as clinical experience and it was well received. The big advantage is that you're working independently and are fully responsible for your client's well being when you're working. It was easily the most enjoyable job I've had too.

Also "because you can" go to med school right out of college is a bad reason for doing so. Consider the advantages of time off very carefully before giving it up

Sardinia · Sep 9, 2016

@keepyourheadup I just found two part-time job listings for a caregiver position in the Chicago area if you're interested. These are the responsibilities and the qualifications:

FutureOncologist · Sep 10, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
I'm glad you feel the same about CNA/EMT. I guess I'll give it a try, but from what I heard about the ED at the hospital I currently volunteer at, they pretty much only restock supplies (but the description of the job says otherwise). Still, though, that isn't an excuse to not give it a shot. I guess it won't hurt to give at least 6 months commitment; maybe it'll turn out to have more patient contact than what I already do.

I'll give you this, because I have been on both sides of the ED; where you are now and where I work now. If you come into the ED with a good attitude and change the linens, help patients with non-emergent requests (like getting water,) etc., it will be noticed. It might be a few boring shifts at first, but if you help the nursing staff, physicians, EMT's, PA's, and so on, to where they can focus on the medicine, then the hospital staff will start loving you to where they will wanna pay you for your services. You will make connections and find more doctors to shadow, sit in when nurses do procedures, watch other hospital staff do their jobs, and talk with patients. It can be very rewarding if you want it to be. I made friends with a doctor that went to a medical school into which I was accepted. Great physician overall and helped me through medical school a bit when I rotated into his specialty during 3rd year.

Once again, it's what you make of it OP. You could also be that premed that changes linens whenever a patient leaves and studies at the nurse's station when it's quiet.

Sardinia · Sep 10, 2016

@FutureOncologist @keepyourheadup Wait until you show them that you understand that "changing a patient" means bringing in a chuck, a diaper, a pair of linens, along with the hospital gown. The CHF patient doesn't get water, until they're allowed to get water. You ask the dysphagic patient if their Ensure is thick enough. Or you become cognizant of the subtleties of "patient contact." In all the healthcare settings I've been in you had to earn your reputation. But when you earned it... it seemed like people just wanted to open doors for you if you were willing to keep climbing.

piii · Sep 10, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
I would love to become a scribe! But what if that isn't possible? Like, what if there's a job opening and someone gets the job cuz they're older, have an EMT/CNA or something to give them an advantage. Being a scribe is the ideal goal, but I don't expect to get this job, despite how passionate/willing I am to be one.

Why can't I go to med school at age 21? I know it's too early to say this, but what if I get a stellar MCAT score, grades, and good ECs all around (research background, publications/presentations on research, student leadership, double major in Biology and Spanish, graduating with a 4.0 and honors, community volunteering, social activism/innovation are some of the things I could/will accomplish by the time I'm 21).
I don't want to "target" specific schools and jump through all the hoops needed to be considered for a particular school: I want to be the best well-rounded student I can be, and doing it by 21 is best because I don't want to waste extra years trying to get the education/job I'm aiming for when I'm already in a pretty good spot (when speaking generally). Maybe I didn't provide enough information, but I manage my time pretty well during the school considering my average commute time is 90 minutes (both ways), maintained a 4.0 in my first year of college to the point where I impressed like 4-5 professors, and I'm involved in clubs and activities (some of which I'm a leader or on the executive board). I kinda slacked in the summer (only shadowed doctors at a private oncology clinic) but I made sure I would keep nearly every second of my life busy as soon as school started (which is the case).How the heck am I supposed to get an EMT/CNA license when I've got all of these things going on, and my next summer is going to be very busy. In some of the threads I've read on SDN, some people got these opportunities without having a certificate. I think its impossible to get a patient contact job without a certificate in Chicago, but if there's a job out there I can do that doesn't require a certificate that's actually worthwhile, I would love to know about this job. I still appreciate your response!

Seriously though, the medical schools that do care about this stuff should specifically say that they're looking for EMT/CNA certified individuals with part time jobs on their belts so that unnecessary time and money spending can be prevented.

If you're worried about not being able to get a job, why do you think med school is going to work out?

keepyourheadup · Sep 10, 2016

Sardinia said:
@keepyourheadup I just found two part-time job listings for a caregiver position in the Chicago area if you're interested. These are the responsibilities and the qualifications:

Thanks for posting this job! I'll see if this job works with my school schedule; otherwise, I'll try to find similar jobs around the area.
I think it's gonna take a while before I've settled down with a job that gives me some sense of patient contact (hopefully I'll be doing something within a couple months)

piii said:
If you're worried about not being able to get a job, why do you think med school is going to work out?

It's not that I'm not worried. I just applied to 3 scribe positions in my area (~ 60 mile radius), and inquired about scribe positions available through a different scribe company. But I've had a lot of bad luck with finding and obtaining good opportunities like these. Rather than answering that question, I'd prefer to know the answer to why med school wouldn't work out for someone like me?

Sardinia said:
@FutureOncologist @keepyourheadup Wait until you show them that you understand that "changing a patient" means bringing in a chuck, a diaper, a pair of linens, along with the hospital gown. The CHF patient doesn't get water, until they're allowed to get water. You ask the dysphagic patient if their Ensure is thick enough. Or you become cognizant of the subtleties of "patient contact." In all the healthcare settings I've been in you had to earn your reputation. But when you earned it... it seemed like people just wanted to open doors for you if you were willing to keep climbing.

I'm going to join ED as a volunteer next week. But from what I heard about this hospital's ED, volunteers have extremely limited contact with patients, and are usually given basic, busy work (i.e. restock basic supplies). So, I'm gonna make an effort to get the attention of the nurses and see if I can do more of the work as described in the online job description...

medic0114 · Sep 15, 2016

keepyourheadup said:
Hi everyone,

This is my first ever post here, though I've been lurking on SDN for the past year or so as an anonymous viewer. I'm a sophomore undergrad on a pre-med track and I learned some of the things that are expected of prospective med school applicants (i.e. good grades, MCAT score, volunteering, clinical experience, I'm nt gonna name all of them). But one thing that has boggled my mind is patient contact/care experience/exposure/whatever you want to call this. I've read a bunch of threads on SDN regarding this, and I've definitely learned a little bit more about the opportunities I can take advantage of, but the thing is, I don't have the time or the money to do some of these things. CNA and EMT are two certifications that come to mind, especially as some of my school's advisors heavily recommend either of these before applying to medical school. The thing is, both jobs are heavy commitments and require a lot of money and a decent amount of training; which is really too much to ask of me. I am a double major, taking around 18 credit hours; a commuter; and I can't really afford to have a job that requires me to pay for a rather expensive training program. I have other things on my mind, like student leadership, research, my classes, volunteering, and other extracurriculars, so I can't really delve into career paths requiring CNA and EMT without sacrificing other important things (and I don't think I'm too important/good for cleaning poop or other inconvenient tasks, I'd love to do them without having to pay hundreds of dollars and having the potential to delve into more purposeful patient care). I am also unfortunate because of the area I live in (Chicago-area), where pretty much every job requires prior experience and appropriate certifications. The only thing I can hope for is a job as a medical scribe, and I'm waiting for a spot to open up so I can be notified (I used some of those national scribe websites to apply for a position).

If it takes becoming an EMT or CNA to get a desirable job and make it to medical school, then I don't think I'll make it (even though im a 4.0 student who's impressing professors and is building up a great resume atm). My only shot at EMT is the summer after junior year (I'm studying abroad this summer) or during the school year (as a full-time student/commuter taking 16-18 credit hours), which could affect my grades and will be a financial burden on my family. What am I supposed to do about so called "patient contact exposure" or "patient contact experience"? I've done shadowing (50+ hours, 3 physicians), hospital general volunteering (500 hours w/ "leadership" position), and I might volunteer at a nursing home this year, and a free clinic in the summer (after my stud abroad experience). I might also be able to go on "mission trips" once or twice (possibly during my study abroad) before I apply after junior year, but thats it.

To all the helpful people on SDN: I would love to hear any advice you have for me, as I'm a lost pre-med sophomore who's making an effort to work hard to have great, relevant experiences (especially things I enjoy!) before applying to medical school. At this point, I will lack patient contact exposure, which may hurt my chances of getting into med school (I won't be taking the mcat until spring of 2018, so I'm just gonna assume I will get a score that's very common among applicants), and I would like some expert opinions or insight on what I can do to find an opportunity to be exposed to patients without being a burden on other aspects of my life (academics, financial, other extracurriculars). Thanks!!

Couple of words of advice. 1 don't get your EMT just to have it on your resume as it will do almost nothing for you. 2 if you want to get your EMT to actually treat patients and gain experience then that would be a good idea, but just keep in mind that many pre-med students have their EMT as a resume filler. 3 if your still interested in getting you EMT without the financial burden (although where I live its really not that expensive) then you could attempt to volunteer at a 911 ambulance company or FD and if you show enough dedication they will put you through your EMT. This is how it works where I live

Fancy_Feast · Sep 15, 2016

I had luck volunteering for a private hospice company and at an assisted living facility. These experiences helped me quickly land a job as a CNA once I completed my training.

Meticulouslykiwi · May 20, 2017

FutureOncologist said:
I'll give you this, because I have been on both sides of the ED; where you are now and where I work now. If you come into the ED with a good attitude and change the linens, help patients with non-emergent requests (like getting water,) etc., it will be noticed. It might be a few boring shifts at first, but if you help the nursing staff, physicians, EMT's, PA's, and so on, to where they can focus on the medicine, then the hospital staff will start loving you to where they will wanna pay you for your services. You will make connections and find more doctors to shadow, sit in when nurses do procedures, watch other hospital staff do their jobs, and talk with patients. It can be very rewarding if you want it to be. I made friends with a doctor that went to a medical school into which I was accepted. Great physician overall and helped me through medical school a bit when I rotated into his specialty during 3rd year.

Once again, it's what you make of it OP. You could also be that premed that changes linens whenever a patient leaves and studies at the nurse's station when it's quiet.

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but what is an ED?

Hospitalized · May 20, 2017

Meticulouslykiwi said:
Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but what is an ED?

Emergency department; also don't bump threads for simple definitions you can google.

kamakazi5 · May 20, 2017

Meticulouslykiwi said:
Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but what is an ED?

Emergency Department (also, ER)

reaction mechanisms · May 21, 2017

This thread gave me a major headache.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Meticulouslykiwi · May 21, 2017

Hospitalized said:
Emergency department; also don't bump threads for simple definitions you can google.

I apologize, I searched "Premed ED meaning" in Google, but results had ER instead, and so I thought they were two separate subjects. Thank you.

So confused about patient contact

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