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So I matched...and I need to know how to get out of it.
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What are your inclinations re: other specialties besides rad onc? If young people can't change their minds when it comes to their LIFE, I don't feel at home in this world anymore.
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deleted18755
Wow this is a tough one. You obviously shouldn’t have ranked this program but what’s done is done. I have a lot of friends and family in medicine including FMGs who have successfully taken very unconventional paths (including leaps of faiths) that turned out well but radiation oncology, especially academics, which by definition you need for training but then appear to truly want to pursue as a career, is about as tiny a field as there is in medicine and literally every chair and program director personally or through one connection knows one another. Obviously don’t do anything that violates the rules but don’t even do anything shady because one burnt bridge is all it could take to ruin it for you. I honestly don’t know how to advise you in that regard since I’ve been out of the academic loop for so long and don’t know the hard rules or softer etiquette.
I would, however, advise you to more strongly consider what you stated was the “less import” issue of location. I don’t mind living in an “undesirable” location but some people can’t stand it; more importantly I would be miserable thousands of miles from my family and wife regardless of where I lived. It’s easy to take them for granted until they are far away and residency is so tough plus a lot can happen in those 4-5 years (from missing out on the most important things in life like births of nieces/nephews to not being there when your family needs you during a death or crisis or not having them around if/when you need them ... I experienced all of those things x 2-3 in those 4-5 years and I had my wife by my side).
On top of that (see basically any other thread) if the current residents from that program are having trouble finding jobs I don’t even want to think about what you will be facing 5-6 years from now.
I would tell you to try to transition into medicine then medical oncology since there are many more opportunities for academic oncology careers but I’m sure you thought about that and there must have been a reason you chose radiation oncology instead (maybe not as important now). Again I don’t know the rules or how difficult this might be.
Sorry I couldn’t have been more helpful I’m sure you put an unimaginable amount of blood sweat and tears to get to this (disappointing/devistating) point. I would love to tell you “don’t worry it’ll all work out” but from what you describe it won’t on this path so fellow SDN colleagues who know the rules for matching/transferring etc please advise our friend here!
I would, however, advise you to more strongly consider what you stated was the “less import” issue of location. I don’t mind living in an “undesirable” location but some people can’t stand it; more importantly I would be miserable thousands of miles from my family and wife regardless of where I lived. It’s easy to take them for granted until they are far away and residency is so tough plus a lot can happen in those 4-5 years (from missing out on the most important things in life like births of nieces/nephews to not being there when your family needs you during a death or crisis or not having them around if/when you need them ... I experienced all of those things x 2-3 in those 4-5 years and I had my wife by my side).
On top of that (see basically any other thread) if the current residents from that program are having trouble finding jobs I don’t even want to think about what you will be facing 5-6 years from now.
I would tell you to try to transition into medicine then medical oncology since there are many more opportunities for academic oncology careers but I’m sure you thought about that and there must have been a reason you chose radiation oncology instead (maybe not as important now). Again I don’t know the rules or how difficult this might be.
Sorry I couldn’t have been more helpful I’m sure you put an unimaginable amount of blood sweat and tears to get to this (disappointing/devistating) point. I would love to tell you “don’t worry it’ll all work out” but from what you describe it won’t on this path so fellow SDN colleagues who know the rules for matching/transferring etc please advise our friend here!
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I'm wondering if someone with much more experience in Radiation Oncology training, research, and job placement might be able to speak to one's ability to publish and pursue academics at an otherwise more private-practice, clinically-oriented program. Are there ways to collaborate and publish with people outside of one's own department that can compensate for the deficiencies of a home program - or is this a pretty insurmountable obstacle? How important is name and pedigree of a program in job placement? I've heard a lot of mixed messages about this over my time in medical school; it seems like half of people in this field say that a great resident will get whatever he/she needs out of any Rad Onc residency program regardless of what that program is like, and others who insist that because the current Rad Onc job market is saturated, going to a well-reputed program with high research output is critical.
It's interesting to note how the fear of not matching in this field will drive applicants to rank programs that we otherwise wouldn't and don't want to go to simply out of the belief that not matching is worse than matching into a very poor fit. I was told to rank every program I interviewed at regardless of whether I could see myself there. Not ranking a Rad Onc program was considered an incredibly brazen thing to do in a field where one is "lucky to even match."
It's interesting to note how the fear of not matching in this field will drive applicants to rank programs that we otherwise wouldn't and don't want to go to simply out of the belief that not matching is worse than matching into a very poor fit. I was told to rank every program I interviewed at regardless of whether I could see myself there. Not ranking a Rad Onc program was considered an incredibly brazen thing to do in a field where one is "lucky to even match."
What kind of PGY1 year are you doing? If you're at an academic prelim year, it should be relatively straightforward to transfer to internal medicine residency and then med onc from there. If you're doing a TY, it will be more difficult and you will have to look at multiple options in terms of rad onc pgy2 openings, applying for internal medicine pgy1, transferring to a pgy2 program, etc.
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This might be one of those instances where a well regarded fellowship at a premier institution after residency may open some doors, should you decide to stick it out
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Every year there seems to be a post like this. Why did you even rank this program? I dont get it. You state you knew exactly what you wanted yet you ranked a program that you had no interest in going to? You had no intention to fulfill your obligation to go? I relate to the fear of not matching and believe me i ranked some of these programs but I would have totally gone and made the best of it. You took somebody’s spot at a place where an unmatched applicant would have been very happy to end up at.
I know someone who transfered and things were nasty and they burned so many bridges. If you want to do academics i don’t even think theres a way to do this without pissing someone off in a field that is controlled by so little people. One person strongly disliking you can sink you. If I were you and you truly still want to do rad onc, go and be an excellent resident. State your goals and become well liked. Work hard. Become someone people want to advocate for and at that point people will do all they can to help you. Worst case scenario you go somewhere and become clinically competent and do a fellowship and try to do academics. I think we do a lot of harm making applicants think matching at some of these “low tier” programs is the end of the world. This is why I despise the ranking thread and a lot of the arrogance in the field. So many academics look down on other programs and the private practice docs. Its sickening.
I know someone who transfered and things were nasty and they burned so many bridges. If you want to do academics i don’t even think theres a way to do this without pissing someone off in a field that is controlled by so little people. One person strongly disliking you can sink you. If I were you and you truly still want to do rad onc, go and be an excellent resident. State your goals and become well liked. Work hard. Become someone people want to advocate for and at that point people will do all they can to help you. Worst case scenario you go somewhere and become clinically competent and do a fellowship and try to do academics. I think we do a lot of harm making applicants think matching at some of these “low tier” programs is the end of the world. This is why I despise the ranking thread and a lot of the arrogance in the field. So many academics look down on other programs and the private practice docs. Its sickening.
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Did you match a TY or a prelim? you could stay on your prelim year program to finish medicine residency. If the location of the rad onc program is not what you want dont do it, yes you shouldnt have ranked it but dont feel guilted into anything. Just switch into something else and don’t look back or think about it. Everyone I know that had to do this or didn’t match into ro and went into something else, not a single one has regrets.
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I'm doing a preliminary internal medicine year.
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The painful truth is that you probably didnt interview as well as you think you did. The match is all about interviewing well and ending up ranked high at a program so you match. Ending up in middle or bottom of list at most programs can easily end up with your situation or unmatched. At this point its not worth replaying it in your head and wondering what went wrong. It likely its not even you. The interview process is a complete crapshoot. Now that im in the other side and have been to ranking meetings, Im amazed by the pettiness and small things that “sink” people down the list. The truth is most people look good on paper and people find ways to differentiate applicants (“he looked bored”, “fell asleep”, “barely spoke at lunch”, “did not seem interested during tour”, “on phone whole time”, etc etc). Im amazed I even matched and im where I am now lol!. People are watching you like hawks and you do not even realize it. Just go there and make the best of it. Its very likely not as bad as you think. The residents there didnt sound miserable based on what you say
It would be helpful to have more information about the program. How much research time do you get? Obviously you can't give the name, but maybe a general location? Your situation is a little different than mine as I would have been willing to go to Mars to be a radiation oncologist, and I have no desire to go into academia. If you are absolutely sure that you want to do academics, it is not uncommon for people from lesser known programs with little research to do a fellowship and then land an academic job. That avenue is always open. To answer your specific question, there are always a handful of PGY-2 positions that open up over the next year. Nearly all are posted here. If you are sure you want to switch to IM or another specialty, you can simply apply for a match waiver and it should be granted. You can also apply for a waiver based on a ""serious and extreme hardship." I do not know if your current situation qualifies, but otherwise if you want to switch into another rad-onc program, I believe you will have to do this after you start at the program you matched to and get the support from both programs. From what I have heard from PDs, transfers are typically only approved for family reasons, not for resume boosting.
You need to tread very carefully. Multiple nightmare scenarios have been posted here where people try to get out of a binding PGY-2 contract and don't follow the rules and end up unemployed that year and barred from the match. From my understanding, simply applying to an open PGY-2 position at this point without a waiver is a match violation and will result in loss of your current match and a ban from the next year's match. Technically, any program that participates in the match must place all positions in the match. So while a program may advertise an open PGY-2 position in June and promise the spot to you, you will still have to go through the formality of applying for it next February. Some programs may not follow this rule (illegally), and if you're unmatched to PGY-2 that's on them, not you. But since you are matched, and you apply to another position that technically is in the match, you will be in violation.
As someone who didn't match the first go-around, it's hard for me to have any sympathy for your situation. Regardless, I wish you the best of luck and my personal opinion would be to graciously accept your match result and go into the new program with positive attitude and make the best of it. There is still a realistic path to a very successful career as an academic radiation oncologist if you do this. If you switch to IM, there is not.
This plus the fact that programs are constantly in flux. A program that went unfilled 10 years ago with a history of 80 hour weeks, abusing and firing residents, no research, and poor job placement can be completely turned around in a short period of time by a new chair or PD (whose life expectancy in a program is what 5-10 years at most?). Likewise, historically "big name" programs can become malignant sweatshops that ride on their name alone for a while before applicants catch wind. The concept of tiers is total bunk. Virtually every program will train you to be a competent radiation oncologist. Board pass rates are still excellent even in the flyover programs and really not much different from the "top tier" programs. Malignant programs come and go at all "tiers." Regardless of where you match, there is a decent chance the culture and leadership will be different 5-6 years later when you are graduating from it. OP would benefit from focusing on potential opportunities in the future at this program rather than historical problems.
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I very much identify with the OP's situation. I have always felt that I have received somewhat contradictory information from many in the Rad Onc community about such a match. One on hand, in such a competitive field, I am often told how lucky I am - even with a fantastic application - to match into a Rad Onc spot at all. Moreover, I am often told how a great resident can distinguish themselves at virtually any program, and as kristofer pointed out, how "virtually every program will train you to be a competent radiation oncologist. Board pass rates are still excellent even in the flyover programs and really not much different from the "top tier" programs."" Definitely agree on the dynamic nature of programs as well (Emory seemed like a good example of that when I interviewed there - once on probation and totally turned itself around). On the other hand, I am reminded of the increasingly terrible and saturated Rad Onc job market where even amazing applicants from aforementioned top tier programs have difficulty finding positions in academia. Never know exactly how to reconcile this information. Perhaps someone in Rad Onc and with a good sense of the field can clarify?
I think almost all Rad Onc program directors encourage students to rank all of the places that they interview. Obviously, fit and preference make one rank a place higher, but my PD never told me to not put a place on the list because I didn't think it was a good fit. I think the predominant mindset is a match is better than none at all. Whether or not that is good advice for someone with strong academic aspirations and geographic limitations is again debatable. Definitely understand the OP in that regard too. Again, I defer to someone who knows more about Rad Onc than I do to weigh in on that.
In vein of what was posted earlier, I also indeed wonder if one can forge their own academic path even at a program with a poor record of resident research, or no protected research time, by collaborating with colleagues elsewhere. Can you get your "research and publication fix" by working with people at other places, or are you pretty much relegated to the output of your program? When all is said and done and you apply for jobs, what criteria do practices use in selecting and hiring applicants?
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This was a recent change a few years ago since I (and many others) applied and got in via an out of match spot during pgy1.
It was a terrible idea imo and speaks to the heavy handed and monopolistic nature of NRMP. Less flexibility for applicants and programs
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I think if you REALLY want to go into academic research then you have three options:
1) Finish your residency at the place you matched, make the best of it and then do a 1-2 research year fellowship or postdoc.
2) Start your residency and try to transfer to a different program (No guarantee this can happen)
3) Switch fields
The choice is up to you. You need to think long and hard what you truly want. So many people say they want to do research, but it is very challenging and exhausting at times, so you need to be totally committed to it. If you are then 1 or 3 are your best options. Tons of people have changed fields in medicine and have done well. Many current chairs are dual trained in med onc and switched to rad onc. I haven’t heard of many people doing the reverse switch tho..
If your scores and research are really what you say then I think its pretty strange you got your last choice. It is key to try to really connect with programs and express genuine interest in order to be ranked well. It is also possible that during your residency your career interests may change and you might want a non-academic job. I wouldn’t worry to much, tons of people do not have ‘straight’ paths in medicine and end up doing very well.
1) Finish your residency at the place you matched, make the best of it and then do a 1-2 research year fellowship or postdoc.
2) Start your residency and try to transfer to a different program (No guarantee this can happen)
3) Switch fields
The choice is up to you. You need to think long and hard what you truly want. So many people say they want to do research, but it is very challenging and exhausting at times, so you need to be totally committed to it. If you are then 1 or 3 are your best options. Tons of people have changed fields in medicine and have done well. Many current chairs are dual trained in med onc and switched to rad onc. I haven’t heard of many people doing the reverse switch tho..
If your scores and research are really what you say then I think its pretty strange you got your last choice. It is key to try to really connect with programs and express genuine interest in order to be ranked well. It is also possible that during your residency your career interests may change and you might want a non-academic job. I wouldn’t worry to much, tons of people do not have ‘straight’ paths in medicine and end up doing very well.
If you are a DO, that would explain it. Sitting on the other side and watching candidate selections, it is my impression that DO is anathema in this specialty. For whatever reason. DOs are lucky to match at all no matter what their stats are. If you are a US MD, I doubt your school's reputation had much of an impact on this. The only time I have seen candidates get dinged based on their school's name alone is if it's DO.
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Old habits die hard.... DO has come a long way in terms of its acceptance, but for decades, it was thought of as the school you went into if you couldn't get into an MD school. Many harbor this feeling, including in academic MD depts in competitive fields like rad onc, derm, plastics etc.
I hate to agree with others on this thread, but it's true. You should be grateful you even matched as a DO.
You had no idea of DO vs MD when were applying to med school, and how that choice might impact your residency chances afterwards?? I am going to have call BS on that one... I still tell premeds to pick a US MD school over a US DO one if they don't want to rule out competitive residences and your story is a great example of why. It's sad that it is still happening in 2018 but it is what it is
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You are a DO. You should feel INCREDIBLELY lucky that you even matched at all. In 2016, 4 out of 167 pgy 2 radonc positions went to DOs. 4 in the whole country, and 22 applied that year. As you know there is NO AOA radonc programs.
So congrats on being one of the special few. I can see why PDs do not prefer DO candidates. For starters, it make their program look less competitive (look for post by radiologypd). And secondly, osteo philosphy like cranial and intravaginal OMT are so out of the left field and opposite to the scientific ideology of radonc (as you know one of the most evidence driven field).
It is regretable though.
If your prelim IM is a reputable university/ mid tier program, getting into IM and then medonc maybe the best way to go. But then being a DO you will still be less competitive for big name fellowships. It’s unfortunately but big name institutions don’t prefer to rank DOs when they can help it in general. Very unfortunate.
So please do recognize your hard work and accomplishment. You matched, something very few DO was able to.
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Many DO schools are well known for subpar clinical education and their inferior education despite often being more expensive than state schools are well documented.
The other elephant in the room is that academia is a notoriously snobby image-over-substance profession (did I mention that I have no interest in academia?) and if you continue into academia this will not be the last time the DO will cause you problems. I know a very bright individual who had both an MD and DO acceptance to med school and chose the DO for personal reasons. He went into family med, which he wanted to do from the beginning. If you had MD and DO acceptances, somebody advised you wrong, period. It sucks and it's stupid, but in prestige-oriented and highly academic fields like rad onc, DOs are automatically assumed to be students who didn't test well or study hard enough and couldn't get into an MD school, and while that's true for a good chunk of DOs, there are exceptions like yourself. The good news is that you don't have to beat yourself up about your interview performance as other posters were suggesting. I am sure you interviewed just fine and will make an excellent radiation oncologist. It was your initials. Sorry.
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Actually I picked DO over the MD schools I got into bc of the scholarship package they offered. Sure, I was naive at the time, and they also sold the "DOs can do anything MDs can do!" very well. I regretted buying into it as soon as I go there, and learned that its nearly impossible to transfer medical schools.
Hindsight, hey.
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This is the kind of thread illustrating why people like myself and meat tornado are consistently try to talk premeds out of DO if they have specialty interests.
You should stick with your spot. Fellowship in radonc should be easy to get now that competition haven’t heat up (hopefully it stays that way). On auntminnie some DO applied to 50 IR fellowships with no interviews.
Non-big name programs don't want to rank them either. They want to strengthen their brand, and generating alumni with DO initials isn't the way to do that. This is a valuable thread both for DO applicants to rad onc as well as premeds with any potential interest in subspecialty training -- hopefully they find it.
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Indeed, sometimes it’s the mid to lower tier program that exhibit the most amount of prestige bias. If MGH matches a DO, people will assume they are baller. If LSU Shreveport matches a DO, people will assume that they can’t recruit better.
Someone once explained to me that faculties and potentially applicants can only judge quality of your match by the origin of your resident class. A class filled with FMG and DOs with 250 vs Harvard and Columbia grads with 210 will lead to assumption that the Harvard/Columbia filled class is better since step scores are not displayed on people’s bio.
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Yup, considering some in the medical field don't even know what rad onc does, it doesn't surprise me that the mainstream DO community (which doesn't even have a single residency in rad onc) would say that
D
deleted18755
It’s been awhile since I applied and I’ve lost touch with more recent graduates but DO degrees were a game changer when I applied. From what I understand things have changed a lot in 15-20 years but apparently not in radiation oncology (for what it’s worth there where at least a few very solid Caribbean schools back then from which you could land a solid non-comparative residency but I hear these days many/most don’t even get into any residencies at all and top DO students can do anything ... sadly academic radiation oncologists are still too arrogant).
Anyway, OP it looks like you got some solid advise on this thread but I assume it came with a price: somebody above posted that only a handful of students from DO schools match every year. That fact would be enough but combined with the other scores and stuff you listed would I assume make you readily identifiable to your program and future residents who probably now know you haven’t stepped your foot in the door and very clearly don’t want to be a part of their program and think your way better than them in at least a few regards. Not a good way to make a first impression in such a tiny program in such a tiny field.
Anyway, OP it looks like you got some solid advise on this thread but I assume it came with a price: somebody above posted that only a handful of students from DO schools match every year. That fact would be enough but combined with the other scores and stuff you listed would I assume make you readily identifiable to your program and future residents who probably now know you haven’t stepped your foot in the door and very clearly don’t want to be a part of their program and think your way better than them in at least a few regards. Not a good way to make a first impression in such a tiny program in such a tiny field.
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On further analysis OP, stay where you are. You've improved your station in life and don't even know it. Prejudice sucks; it comes in all shapes and sizes. The most negative and damning thing I can say about my specialty is that attitude and behavior you have just run into and experienced. It's rampant and pervasive in our field, and while a "DO scenario" is one manifestation of it, all of us at one time or another come face-to-face with the classism and elitism and ignorant blindness in our specialty (the attitudinal flipside of not wanting a DO to be a rad onc is putting a proton center in at your facility; both are self-destructive, short-sighted behavior). Rome burns and the rad oncs fiddle while eating grapes in their tricliniums. If you can accept this, be a rad onc. Only you can assess if the possible pros might outweigh the cons. You need to think about that deeply, the possible ramifications of decisions you make. You didn't think about it deeply enough by virtue of ranking a program you now regret. ALWAYS think worst case. So think about rad onc deeply and all the possible side-eye (it won't be bad, but it might be dispiriting) you might be subject to in the future. You will forever be more accepted and have less hurdles as a med onc, or surgical oncologist, or in many other fields.
But, someone somewhere was already un-prejudiced against you. Value that and continue to strive upward. Google Paul Wallner, DO, and try to make contact with him and ingratiate yourself with him. He's prob rad onc's most famous DO. On another note, always have a backup plan in the case of a non-sure thing. For now, accept it as a sure thing that your next two years are set. Begin contacting other programs though and start some in-depth research about what your backup plan, in terms of transferring to another program, might be >2 years from now. Look at it as a possible long-term goal.
But, someone somewhere was already un-prejudiced against you. Value that and continue to strive upward. Google Paul Wallner, DO, and try to make contact with him and ingratiate yourself with him. He's prob rad onc's most famous DO. On another note, always have a backup plan in the case of a non-sure thing. For now, accept it as a sure thing that your next two years are set. Begin contacting other programs though and start some in-depth research about what your backup plan, in terms of transferring to another program, might be >2 years from now. Look at it as a possible long-term goal.
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Or Thomas E. Merchant, DO, PhD.
I think the op should be focused on being a radiation oncologist rather than focusing on academics as some sort of goal. Most academic jobs nowadays are basically private practice jobs working for an academic institution. What's the difference?
I'd be curious what the op thinks they're going to get in any field of medicine by going to a bigger name program. It would be one thing if they have a PhD and are dead set on having a lab some day. If it's just to have residents and maybe write some clinical research papers here and there in their free time nights and weekends, they'll be in as good a position as any other rad onc to do so.
I think they should make the best of their situation. Transferring is probably not going to be feasible, though I suppose you could try. A fellowship when you're done might be the answer if you can't get the job you want. Heck, by the time you're done training a fellowship might be required for academic positions
That written, what really is your goal in life? Is it to be a rad onc or is it to be some other type of doc? If so, what type and why do you think that's going to get you where you want to go? Grass is always greener...
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I'd assume that you don't have a PhD. If you want a career doing intensive translational/bench radonc research at a high-powered academic center, I think that probably hurts you as much as anything. I mean, how many 20:80 rad onc jobs even exist anymore? How many are snapped up by non-PhDs? Where are all the programs doing "meaningful" radonc research at this point? Honest question.
To me, it sounds like you don't want to be a radonc in 2018, let alone whatever it looks like in 2023. Do medicine, secure a med onc fellowship, and score some sweet pharma funding. I just see no path for what you want here.
To me, it sounds like you don't want to be a radonc in 2018, let alone whatever it looks like in 2023. Do medicine, secure a med onc fellowship, and score some sweet pharma funding. I just see no path for what you want here.
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Could there be anything more millenial than applying to a competitive specialty, ranking several programs including one that you don't want to be at, matching, complaining about it, and then trying to find a way out? Good grief.
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Definitely grass is greener on this one. I have plenty of med onc friends.
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For sure. I think there's at least some glimmer of hope with that route though.
I'm perfectly content with being a clinical Rad Onc though. I'd take it 100 times out of 100 over being a bench radonc, clinical med onc, or bench med onc.
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That's the thing. I don't understand the op's motivations here to properly advise.
I did a PhD so I could do more serious basic research, and I still wish I could do it, but I had no opportunities for that after graduation despite my attempts. I'm academic based, mostly clinical, with a little bit of clinical research output these days. I'm not sure if that would have been different in another specialty or not, though all of my research has been in or closely related to this area because it's what I enjoy. I don't want to give up clinical practice and I know I made the right specialty choice for me as far as what I enjoy doing clinically. So here I am.
But all of this is only applicable to me. For someone else it could be different.
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It is very import that you do not leave any program that you already have a guaranteed spot until you secure a guaranteed spot in another. Over the next year or even after you started your current rad onc residency some academic type places will probably post for an open residency position and you can approach them about why they maybe a better fit for you on the down low and see how receptive they are. But I would just chill out about this for now and focus on starting internship this summer and see what opportunities present themselves over the next two years.
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OP, others have provided good advice on this thread. Agree that as a DO there is inherent bias against your degree. Hopefully you were aware of this bias when applying and ranking programs. Agree that you matching in Rad Onc is a great feat in and of itself.
You need to figure out if you are happy doing clinical Rad Onc or if you just wanna do onc research. I think with pharma funding being the most common form of research done now, your chances for that will be better in med-onc than rad-onc (albeit still low).
If you want to do Rad-Onc, then stay put. Finish your career. Try a fellowship if you must, but honestly a DO in academics in this day and age is a rare bird. Certainly can't hurt to reach out to somebody like Dr. Merchant as mentioned above.
If you'd rather do med-onc, you still need to show up I believe. I believe it's a match violation for you not to show up to what you matched - the thing I'm not sure of is if that counts 45 days of your intern year alone, or includes 45 days into your PGY-2 year. I believe it's the former, but I would read the match rules VERY carefully before making any leaps of faith. The last thing you want is a match violation preventing you from pursuing ANY spots from the match.
You need to figure out if you are happy doing clinical Rad Onc or if you just wanna do onc research. I think with pharma funding being the most common form of research done now, your chances for that will be better in med-onc than rad-onc (albeit still low).
If you want to do Rad-Onc, then stay put. Finish your career. Try a fellowship if you must, but honestly a DO in academics in this day and age is a rare bird. Certainly can't hurt to reach out to somebody like Dr. Merchant as mentioned above.
If you'd rather do med-onc, you still need to show up I believe. I believe it's a match violation for you not to show up to what you matched - the thing I'm not sure of is if that counts 45 days of your intern year alone, or includes 45 days into your PGY-2 year. I believe it's the former, but I would read the match rules VERY carefully before making any leaps of faith. The last thing you want is a match violation preventing you from pursuing ANY spots from the match.
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This is the point I was trying to make, but worded much, much better.
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Your pretty foolish and a little arrogant to think your high scores and interviews should have done you better. Perphaps you don't interview as well as you thought.
You were also foolish to rank a place you didn't want to go. Rule of the match is only rank places you want to be - as it will attempt to get you the best option you are willing to go to.
By ranking the place, you agreed to that position if obtained. You have prevented someone else from getting that spot. And the match is a binding contract - you signed that when you signed up for the match. You may be able to get out of it, but I would suspect no other program would touch you if they know you left a program for poor reasons. Getting a spot is like earning a union card - you can do whatever you want. If the program doesn't have enough mentorship, find someone there who can be a mentor - or someone on the outside to collaborate with. Make the best out of the situation you are in. And be thankful to have gotten your union card.
He can apply for a waiver during his intern year for the purposes of changing specialty. In order to be granted a waiver, both he and his rad onc program would need to submit waiver requests. This appears to be pretty straightforward and I think it's unlikely his rad onc program would not be on board with this if he tells them upfront he doesn't want to be there. Then he could simply stay on at his prelim institution. However, if the only reason he is doing this is to have an academic career, I agree with others that he should just stay put as the odds of having an academic career wouldn't be that much better in med onc. I just can't wrap my head around any of this, though.
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this feels a bit "troll-y" to be honest. Like why didn't you tell us in your original thread that you were DO. You really didn't know that DO is a handicap until halfway through this thread? Anyway, if that is the case you should stick with it if you want but DO is going to be a tough go of things in the academic realm unless you have very specific aims in life (like merchant/wallner etc). But if youre a star at the 3 A's (particularly the affability component and the 4th A - attractiveness) then just stick w this program and you could be ok. Judging by the fact you got your last choice though you may not be that kind of star. And if you are not then just switch fields, not worth the headaches to be honest
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Congrats! In this time of March Madness, you're a Cinderella who's still got a seat at the table for the big dance. You might have drawn a 16 seed or played the first round in Dayton (I'm looking at you, Syracuse), but you're still in the game and have a path to prosperity lying ahead of you, whereas many others don't have that opportunity. You should rejoice.
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Wow, this blew up today. To respond to a few comments above - no, not a troll, just wanted to be careful about revealing too much identifying information. Yes, my goal is to have a lab one day, or at the very least, maintain some focus on basic/translational research. I'm not going to add any additional personal details here e.g. graduate degrees or specific experiences, but I do have the (science) training that would not make that an unreasonable goal. As stated in my original post, I am not ungrateful that I matched, but I do have concerns about entering a program where I could be frustrated and unhappy for 4 years. Sure, hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have ranked the program. I'm in no way trying to bash the program, which is why I have not identified it in any way. I'm not trying to say I'm too good to go there, I deserve bigger and better, and whatever. As I said, I'm only trying to make a sound, informed, well-thought out, adult decision from here - not 'millennial whining'. And okay, I get it, I chose the wrong medical school program for myself based on my goals. Again, as stated above, I spent 5 years busting my ass to make up for that, and as far as for the factors that can be directly compared, out performed many of my co-applicants. Think back to your match day - shouldn't I have been as eager as any other applicant to match into a program that I felt was the best fit for me, and yes, an academically competitive one? In all honesty, it has been very difficult for me to hear all of the "got my #1!" celebrations from peers who applied as well (who, don't get me wrong, I am very, very happy for) - but to hear for myself "you should be grateful you got anything", as if my hard work and accomplishments will somehow always be viewed as inferior, despite that they have little to nothing to do with where I am getting my medical degree from.
Anyway, thank you all for your insight. I'm going to take the time tonight to read carefully through all of your responses. I appreciate it.
Anyway, thank you all for your insight. I'm going to take the time tonight to read carefully through all of your responses. I appreciate it.
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A DO candidate this cycle just PMed me to tell me that he matched at a reputable academic program. So it seems like it’s doable for DO and OP may not have end up in this position solely due to DO training. I encourged that poster to post publicaly.
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Well it appears to me:
1) you shouldn't have ranked the program
2) if you hadn't ranked the program, you wouldn't have a rad onc residency spot right now
3) Given if 1 and 2... would you be happier and more at peace? If so, abandon rad onc right now.
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"In all honesty, it has been very difficult for me to hear all of the "got my #1!" celebrations from peers who applied as well (who, don't get me wrong, I am very, very happy for) - but to hear for myself "you should be grateful you got anything", as if my hard work and accomplishments will somehow always be viewed as inferior, despite that they have little to nothing to do with where I am getting my medical degree from."
if you do not want to hear the future versions of the same thing, better off just getting out now. You made a mistake not coming to us earlier to get an understanding of what you are getting yourself into, its a sunk cost now. We're giving you advice and information that has never been so readily accessible before in history, hopefully that helps you make a wise decision. Pretty much all of us in rad onc are more accomplished, more clinically introspective, more thoughtful than our medical colleagues. You will not be awarded for such things in rad onc with the state of medicine as it is today
if you do not want to hear the future versions of the same thing, better off just getting out now. You made a mistake not coming to us earlier to get an understanding of what you are getting yourself into, its a sunk cost now. We're giving you advice and information that has never been so readily accessible before in history, hopefully that helps you make a wise decision. Pretty much all of us in rad onc are more accomplished, more clinically introspective, more thoughtful than our medical colleagues. You will not be awarded for such things in rad onc with the state of medicine as it is today
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It is not hard figuring out who people are and where they matched. It is readily available online and the number of DOs is minimal. The poster will be best served by not posting further personal information and graciously moving forward and making the best of this situation. Biting the hand that feeds never works out for the biter. Imagine if your future program figures out who you are. There may be some bitterness that arises. One of the worst things is to have your colleagues think that you do not want to be there or are not interested. I wish you luck and clarity in your future endeavours.
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I'll let you in on a little secret. At a lot of programs the rank list is set by or mostly set by people who have no interest in basic research. So people will tell you to your face how much they love your research, but behind doors not really see how you're going to use that at their program and rank you low. You can very easily talk too much about research and sink yourself for more clinically oriented faculty who just want a resident to do as much work as possible with the least issues. This includes big name places.
This is all made up in your head. Get over it. Rad onc is one of the most competitive specialties to match. Make the best of your situation and move on. BTW, lots of highly qualified MD/PhDs are in the same position every year. We match tons of PhDs to rad onc that will never have opportunities to work in labs. This is not unique to you and you were fighting an uphill battle from the start whether you knew it or not.
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I second all of this. Remember, even though Rad Onc as a field has gotten slightly easier to match into the top name places with big research are still some of the most competitive places to match too in all of medicine. Over qualified MD candidates fail to match to them every year. It sucks, and while this may (or may not) be related to the DO degree, you reached for the stars and didn't quite make it. Thats okay, this is the time in life to take big risks.
Remember, the day you match into Rad Onc, it is essentially winning the lottery. If you just work hard and pass the necessary board exams someday you will have a big 6 figure income for a 5 day work week. Don't lose sight of your accomplishment because from your distant, outside view the research at the place you matched doesn't live up to MSK or MD Anderson. Honestly, you can't truly know about all the opportunities until you get there and meet with all the faculty in other departments who have labs.
Finally, work hard and perhaps the PD at the program you matched to will give you more research time. This is all flexible and not set in stone. Also, may of the best Rad Onc researchers do reserach outside their department so don't worry about that. In fact, your career would likely be better served doing research cross-discipline with other specialties using their expertise combined with yours.
Congrats on the match, don't do anything rash, and just celebrate having made it.
I would also guess his classmates who matched at their "#1" primary care programs are green with envy since matching to a competitive "lifestyle" specialty or surgical subspecialty is so difficult to do for DOs. He will only be earning triple what they do for fewer hours, albeit who knows where.
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Actually I was referring to my Rad Onc co-applicants here...and you'd be surprised, this year we had fewer people applying to primary care specialties from my school than many allopathic schools. It's not just the MD kids that don't see the value in going into primary care anymore (and the debt burden for us is often higher, making it even less of a feasible pursuit).
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OP: you aren't alone.
I am a MD/PhD grad that recently matched into rad onc, at a program at the bottom of my rank list. Like OP, I was aspiring to be a physician scientist (wanted to apply for the Holman pathway, run a lab some day). I don't want to openly critical of this program, but I do know that, at least locally, the program has a very poor reputation. I had multiple rad oncs in nearby places tell me they were shocked that the program was still taking applicants and they are deficient in multiple clinical sites. (Yes, I realize I may have gone unmatched if I didn't match into this program, I have no one to blame but myself, etc.) But at the program where I matched, there are unfortunately no faculty involved in basic science research and no support for residents who have those interests. I think that my match placement will hurt those goals, and ultimately my career.
So, sure, I am shocked/disappointed by my match placement, and just like OP, I hope to eventually get over this and fulfill my obligation. But even after getting over it, how badly have I hurt my career goals? After all, from reading this forum, sounds like grads from bottom-tier residencies are lucky to find a job at all, let alone find a physician scientist position at a major academic center. Does anyone graduating from a bottom-tier program have any experience applying for academic jobs? Any advice is appreciated, Thanks
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