So, what's the downside of being a doctor? Or is everything just terrific?

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Gauss44

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I just can't imagine not liking it. Thanks for your help.

Edit: I don't think I'm allowed to post in the doctor forums since I'm a premed. That explains my posting here. And I shortened my post. You can see the original in the quotes below.

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Rumors I've heard:

Doctors get no benefits.

False

Doctors can't call in sick much or go on many vacations.

Variable

Most other professions try harder to attract employees/talent by offering more.

Not really
Most doctors work over 8 hours a day resulting in no family time.

Most doctors work 10-12 hours a day, and are on call usually every other weekend. However this is also variable on specialty and you can work easy hours in dermatology and work like crazy as a radiologist. In residency, you work from 70-120 hours a week depending on your chosen specialty.

Doctors tend to be in $300k of debt by the end of medical school.
more like low to mid 200K

It takes almost 10 years to become a specialist. (Then you spend the next 20 paying off student loans...)
Variable from 7-13 years

You will probably have to move (out of Boston) to become a doctor.

Why?

Some patients are mean and will hit you and spit on you. (I kind of doubt that but heard it from a nurse.)

Boy, do I have stories...

etc.

Yet I still want to be a doctor... And still want to know more. So, what else?

It's hard, and you really have to love it to do it.

Edit: I don't think I'm allowed to post in the doctor forums since I'm a premed. That explains my posting here.

How far are you in your premed career...?

& how about focusing on the positives, old sport?

Oh and I shadow in the ER btw... The patients are generally hostile in certain conditions. (I wont go further than that...)
 
How far are you in your premed career...?

& how about focusing on the positives, old sport?

Oh and I shadow in the ER btw... The patients are generally hostile in certain conditions. (I wont go further than that...)

You have a point. " What's GREAT about being a doctor?" should be my next post (maybe). I'll wait a minute though, so people don't get tired of me making too many threads.

I'm a premed. Studying for MCAT. I volunteer in the ER and love it: all the different types of people who come in that I get to interact with, the different medical and psychological scenarios, the versatile hours, and that it can be exciting in all sorts of ways. I can't seem to imagine not liking that career no matter how hard I try.
 
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I suggest you put your post as more of a pros and cons of being a doctor.

With the current post being so negative, people will take offense to it. I just wanted to give you a heads up.
 
you're basically a glorified secretary since you do so much paperwork. if you didn't write it down, it didn't happen and then the lawyers get all over you.
 
Rumors I've heard:

Doctors get no benefits.

Benefits packages vary from DIY to quite lavish, depending on the situation. The DIY ones tend to be for solo practitioners or members of small groups who take home more than enough money to cover themselves.

Doctors can't call in sick much or go on many vacations.

Calling in sick can be challenging, but every vacation package I have seen ranges from 4-12 weeks/year for full time.

Most other professions try harder to attract employees/talent by offering more.

Most specialties are in demand, although some much more than others.

Most doctors work over 8 hours a day resulting in no family time.

Most every full time employee works over 8 hours a day in this country. The lifestyle varies a great deal, but yes, overall practicing medicine takes a fair amount of time.

Doctors tend to be in $300k of debt by the end of medical school.

That's on the high end.

It takes almost 10 years to become a specialist. (Then you spend the next 20 paying off student loans... or worse if you have to pay over 50% of your salary to expenses like malpractice insurance. Hopefully the hospital picks up that cost?)

Salary figures are determined after business expenses like malpractice. If you are in a lucrative field you can pay off your loans more quickly. And if not, you can do income-based repayment (IBR) or pursue other loan forgiveness programs.


You will probably have to move (out of Boston) to become a doctor.

Ah yes, the controversial Boston Physician Purge of 1783.

Some patients are mean and will hit you and spit on you. (I kind of doubt that but heard it from a nurse.)

Deal with enough people each day and you will run across some bad apples.


(Not a rumor, but I've wondered if surgeons tend to accidentally cut their fingers during surgeries, like how you accidentally cut yourself making salad. Exposure would be a major downside.)

Yeah, I was making a strawberry spinach salad in a patient's abdomen once and nicked myself. It happens.

etc.

Yet I still want to be a doctor... And still want to know more. I want to be as informed as possible. For my own sake, for interviews, etc. So, what else?

Well... there is all the death
.

:luck:
 
I find it slightly interesting that everything you mentioned is mostly a system issue. You left out the bad parts of medicine itself like talking about and watching people dying and the diseases you can't treat.

PS: The concern is more for needle sticks and generally people don't do it to themselves. It happens when too many people have too many hands and too many sharps in one area. Or handing them to someone else.
 
Coming from the child of doctors and now going to med school, my thoughts:

I just can't imagine not liking it. Thanks for your help.

Rumors I've heard:

Doctors get no benefits.
I haven't the faintest idea but I cannot imagine that is true.

Doctors can't call in sick much or go on many vacations.
I have never seen my parents call in sick unless they were hospitalized. but we aleays had plenty of time to go on vacation in summer, thanksgiving, xmas or new years.

Most other professions try harder to attract employees/talent by offering more.
what constitutes "most"? do doctors get recruited less than people working on wall street, yeah, but not "most" professions.

Most doctors work over 8 hours a day resulting in no family time.
totally true. I had babysitters/nannies growing up cause my parents left home at 645-7AM and did not get back until 645-7PM. my dad often tells me to go into ER med because you are a hospital employee working a set number of hours a week and not what he does (on call and uncertain work schedule).

Doctors tend to be in $300k of debt by the end of medical school.
yeah but think about your earnings potential for your whole career. you will almost certainly never be unemployed. you will always be making 6 figures. it takes money to make money.

It takes almost 10 years to become a specialist. (Then you spend the next 20 paying off student loans... or worse if you have to pay over 50% of your salary to expenses like malpractice insurance. Hopefully the hospital picks up that cost?)
yeah well it takes ten years to become a specialist. enter med school at 24 finish your specialty training at 34 and you still have at least 31 years to work and make money (or longer if you want). so I don't really see the issue

You will probably have to move (out of Boston) to become a doctor.
man if only boston had hospitals. I feel like that is a major oversight on the city planners' part.

Some patients are mean and will hit you and spit on you. (I kind of doubt that but heard it from a nurse.)
there are mean people in every profession. deal with it. From what I can tell (having worked the past year with a really difficult population) most patients are the antithesis of mean.

(Not a rumor, but I've wondered if surgeons tend to accidentally cut their fingers during surgeries, like how you accidentally cut yourself making salad. Exposure would be a major downside.)
welp I guess you should do something safer like be an astronaut. but seriously, my dad worked in an ER in Chicago during his residency. this was right when HIV/AIDS outbreak was happening. they had a man come into the ER who was bleeding and getting blood e'erwher. they couldn't figure out why this young guy was suffering from a disease that was mostly seen in the eldery and my dad speculates he probably had HIV looking back on it. he got blood all over himself from this guy but nothing happened to him. sure if he had a cut he could have gotten infected but what interesting and motivating job doesn't have occupational hazards?

etc.

Yet I still want to be a doctor... And still want to know more. I want to be as informed as possible. For my own sake, for interviews, etc. So, what else?

Edit: I don't think I'm allowed to post in the doctor forums since I'm a premed. That explains my posting here.

dood being a doctor is a long process (my parents have told e their stories and I am only just starting medical school so I get to experience it soon) but you gotta wanna do it because its a calling. I pity people who go into medicine to make money. those days are long gone. you will still be well off but most likely not wealthy, and you will be working hard long hours and sacrifice family time, your hobbies, and potentially suffer from burnout. having said that I am 1000% certain I could not do anything else with my life and its what I have wanted to do for years.

my nickle on the issue
 
I find it slightly interesting that everything you mentioned is mostly a system issue. You left out the bad parts of medicine itself like talking about and watching people dying and the diseases you can't treat.

PS: The concern is more for needle sticks and generally people don't do it to themselves. It happens when too many people have too many hands and too many sharps in one area. Or handing them to someone else.

Me too. I figured that on here, I would get some credible answers. Outside of SDN there seems to be some speculation.
 
I feel like these are things you should be asking a real doctor...

Long story short, of course there's a downside. Not everything is terrific. Being a doctor isn't all puppies and rainbows. It's the same with any other career.
 
I feel like these are things you should be asking a real doctor...

Long story short, of course there's a downside. Not everything is terrific. Being a doctor isn't all puppies and rainbows. It's the same with any other career.

I agree and I have been. I wanted to post here too since it's anonymous and gives people a chance to think about or edit their response.
 
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Long and expensive training. Long hours that are sometimes unavoidable. Dealing with rude and nasty patients. Dealing with physically and emotionally damaged patients that may be dying. Paperwork, bureaucracy, fighting the hospitals administrators.
 
Long and expensive training. Long hours that are sometimes unavoidable. Dealing with rude and nasty patients. Dealing with physically and emotionally damaged patients that may be dying. Paperwork, bureaucracy, fighting the hospitals administrators.

Fighting with hospital administrators?
 
Fighting with hospital administrators?

Thunderdome style.

Two men enter, one man leaves! Two men enter, one man leaves!


Bureaucracy is everywhere, regardless of your profession.
 
What are half a mil in loans and 80 hour work weeks in comparison to being a BOSS? We're talking mad recognition and e-props from the ladies and the fellas. When you strut that swagger down a hall- stethoscope a swinging and laminated ID card clicking against your polished gun-metal belt buckle- you'll know why you got in the game.
 
Fighting with hospital administrators?

Sure. Maybe you get into an argument with another physician or a nurse, and maybe you are in the right, but the administration writes you up for 'unprofessional' behavior. Maybe mandatory meetings that accomplish nothing. Maybe taking a pay cut so the hospital executives can get a bigger bonus. Maybe adhering to new, pointless rules drawn up by a cretinous ***** in human resources. The possibilities are endless!
 
Rumors I've heard:

Doctors get no benefits.

Depends on your practice setup, but this is nearly always false. Your benefits as a hospital employee can be quite generous.

Doctors can't call in sick much or go on many vacations.

We generally don't call in sick. It's not that we can't, but it's just not part of the culture. Vacation is highly variable depending on your practice setup.

Most other professions try harder to attract employees/talent by offering more.

I don't fully understand this, but some rural and even mid-sized communities are DESPERATE to get a qualified doc and entice them with generous pay/benefits. However, I can't compare this with other careers.

Most doctors work over 8 hours a day resulting in no family time.

Depends of specialty and practice setup. We definitely work more than the average Joe.

Doctors tend to be in $300k of debt by the end of medical school.

This is a high estimate

It takes almost 10 years to become a specialist. (Then you spend the next 20 paying off student loans...)

Depends on how you prioritize paying off the debt. It could take 5, 10, 20 years or even longer.

You will probably have to move (out of Boston) to become a doctor.

Huh?

Some patients are mean and will hit you and spit on you. (I kind of doubt that but heard it from a nurse.)

It could happen. Try being a police officer.
 
Thanks all. So far this has been very helpful. I appreciate the current, concise nature of SDN and the variety of opinions on here... from all different specialties, etc.

From what I gather here, the worst things about being a doctor are dealing with unpleasant behavior from patients, student loans of $170k (which isn't that bad on a $300k income), getting into medical school and the long training process (obviously), possibly exposure via needlesticks, and maybe having to move out of Boston to a nearby city for school or residency (hopefully not for my entire career).

All of this is relatively predictable and not that bad (except maybe the needlesticks, which I'm guessing is unlikely). Much better than what I've been reading elsewhere, ex. http://www.mommd.com/beingadoctor.shtml and the rumors previously noted.

If there's any reason I wouldn't want to be a doctor I'd rather find out now, as a premed. I figure I'm not alone in that matter. Instead, the more I check the "bad list" the more I realize there isn't one, or not much of one. I've done my due diligence. This really seems to be a great career.
 
You must really love Boston.

I think you should consider the potential impact of medical training on your personal relationships and your psyche, which is aptly described in several books (like the one I posted). Those are the longer-term issues that may cause you strife. Needlesticks are possible, but so is getting hit by a bus while crossing the street in Boston. I don't think that's really a reason to rule out a career.
 
Long and expensive training. Long hours that are sometimes unavoidable.
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You must really love Boston.

I think you should consider the potential impact of medical training on your personal relationships and your psyche, which is aptly described in several books (like the one I posted). Those are the longer-term issues that may cause you strife. Needlesticks are possible, but so is getting hit by a bus while crossing the street in Boston. I don't think that's really a reason to rule out a career.

I don't mind working ridiculous hours as long as I do it with other people. My friends understand my workload since I call them all the time on my study breaks. And it's old news. In school I had a double major, a minor, a job, clubs, band, activism, etc.

If this career were as isolating as studying MCAT, I would be finished. But it's not. My understanding is that USMLE might be almost as bad. Medical school won't be because of classes and not being all alone by yourself in a room day after day. Then residency is super busy but with other people around. And after that things get much better.

I will make a point to read that book now that you mention consequences on personal relationships and psyche. Being overly busy and stressed certainly has those consequences. Part of my issue with moving is that I think it would be more isolating leaving my friends behind.
 
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you're basically a glorified secretary since you do so much paperwork. if you didn't write it down, it didn't happen and then the lawyers get all over you.

Serious question, radiologists dictate their comments while reading films, can doctors do this for other care actions yet? Ex: An internist carries around a voice recorder (that automatically uploads to a cloud server as a backup) and just dictates all her notes, a la "Mr. Johnson experienced increased shortness of air, in response he was given... etc."

When switching hands the incoming doctor could just play back the outgoing's notes. Easier to put all relevant info in because speaking is faster than writing/typing, easier to get info from the previous doc because they present it naturally, etc.

I'm sure there are significant disadvantages to this, but it would be my first thought.
 
Serious question, radiologists dictate their comments while reading films, can doctors do this for other care actions yet? Ex: An internist carries around a voice recorder (that automatically uploads to a cloud server as a backup) and just dictates all her notes, a la "Mr. Johnson experienced increased shortness of air, in response he was given... etc."

When switching hands the incoming doctor could just play back the outgoing's notes. Easier to put all relevant info in because speaking is faster than writing/typing, easier to get info from the previous doc because they present it naturally, etc.

I'm sure there are significant disadvantages to this, but it would be my first thought.

It would be 1000000x harder to get the info from the previous doc if you had to listen to some 10 minute speech every time you wanted to look up something about a patient. I mean come on think man, patient is in the hospital for 5 days, let me listen to 2 hours of notes in audio form.

However yes dictation is used by many providers not just radiologists. EMR w/ dragonspeak = you talk, the computer turns it into text.
 
Serious question, radiologists dictate their comments while reading films, can doctors do this for other care actions yet?

Radiologists, pathologists, and surgeons all routinely dictate. In my hospital many of the H&Ps and most of the consults are dictated. The key is that these dictations are transcribed into written reports before they are put into the patient's chart.

There is a place for oral presentation in clinical medicine, but a verbal chart would be a nightmare.
 
I'm sure speech would be easier to decipher than handwritten. But can you FF to the A&P easily? And is everyone walking around the hospital with headphones listening to other notes? I think it would suck a lot. It is possible to dictate, the issue is that it takes a while for the transcription to get to the chart which means no one else can act on the information in the meantime.

Also you are still ignoring everything that is terrible about medicine itself as opposed to the US system. Here is an ER thread talking about what I mean: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=154841
 
If this career were as isolating as studying MCAT, I would be finished. But it's not. My understanding is that USMLE might be almost as bad. Medical school won't be because of classes and not being all alone by yourself in a room day after day. Then residency is super busy but with other people around. And after that things get much better.

You have been sorely misled about USMLE. Step 1 is astronomically worse than the MCAT. As far as medical school, you will almost certainly have to memorize large volumes of material on your own - there's no substitute for that.
 
How far are you in your premed career...?

& how about focusing on the positives, old sport?

Oh and I shadow in the ER btw... The patients are generally hostile in certain conditions. (I wont go further than that...)

The ER is very diverse. I've seen hostile drunk people, but also sweet old ladies who got mad when I tried to walk away.

"Hold up there, sweetie. I'm not done talking to you."
 
I don't mind working ridiculous hours as long as I do it with other people. My friends understand my workload since I call them all the time on my study breaks. And it's old news. In school I had a double major, a minor, a job, clubs, band, activism, etc.

If this career were as isolating as studying MCAT, I would be finished. But it's not. My understanding is that USMLE might be almost as bad. Medical school won't be because of classes and not being all alone by yourself in a room day after day. Then residency is super busy but with other people around. And after that things get much better.

I will make a point to read that book now that you mention consequences on personal relationships and psyche. Being overly busy and stressed certainly has those consequences. Part of my issue with moving is that I think it would be more isolating leaving my friends behind.

Medical school can be very isolating. Every year the distance from your friends you have in other fields grows as they get married, start their careers, and live their lives while you're still reading textbooks. While I'm only a lowly third year I can already feel that no one but other medical folks can relate to my experience.

Studying for the boards is isolating, 3rd year is isolating, and if I were to guess I'd put money on residency being isolating. But I guess it depends on your perspective.
 
Medical school can be very isolating. Every year the distance from your friends you have in other fields grows as they get married, start their careers, and live their lives while you're still reading textbooks. While I'm only a lowly third year I can already feel that no one but other medical folks can relate to my experience.

Studying for the boards is isolating, 3rd year is isolating, and if I were to guess I'd put money on residency being isolating. But I guess it depends on your perspective.

Absolutely agree.

Residency is generally much better unless you're in a specialty with only one resident per year. Especially if you're in a lifestyle friendly specialty like psych, derm, etc.
 
The biggest downfall I see is the time it takes to train. When you included undergrad/med school/residency that is 13 years in my case plus any potential fellowship. It is not the length of time that bothers me but that MUCH of it is wasted including nearly all of undergrad (although the social aspect was fun!) and probably 50% of medical school. Seems there should be more of an apprenticeship setup as we all know that the real learning is done in the hospital taking care of patients.

Survivor DO
 
If this career were as isolating as studying MCAT, I would be finished. But it's not. My understanding is that USMLE might be almost as bad.

I think you might have the wrong idea. I am an MS1 and seeing the MS2's studying for the USMLE does not even compare to the MCAT (studying for the USMLE being much much harder). Be prepared for a lifetime of studying, as it does not end after Step 1. Even as an MS1 I feel like I consistently study way more hours a week than I did in undergrad and for the MCAT. You have to make sure you truly want to be a doctor for the field and not the money, as some days it can be really tough so that's what will ultimately pull you through And most doctors are not pulling in 300k a year like you seem to want
 
That being said I really don't feel isolated. Sure I can't always go to happy hour and stuff with my friends who are working, but I still see them enough. You will make time for whatevers important to you
 
In some other countries people go to medical school right out of high school.
 
That being said I really don't feel isolated. Sure I can't always go to happy hour and stuff with my friends who are working, but I still see them enough. You will make time for whatevers important to you

Yeah, that's what I expect to do. Or join band again or something school related, in addition to other social stuff.

USMLE will be a better fit for my skill profile than MCAT. For MCAT, I've had to increase my reading speed, which is doable (and is working) but much more difficult than memorization, for me anyway. That part is highly individual. To elaborate, personally, I easily remember 16 digit numbers, can figure out diagrams and geometrical drawings abnormally quickly, and am becoming a faster reader (relatively speaking, I was never super slow). Somehow that fast reading skill is more difficult for me to develop. MCAT is a reading test much more so than USMLE from my understanding.

And yeah, I've got some undergraduate loans, so I will need to consider salary. That's not the main reason I like medicine, but important to consider. And darn, I like emergency medicine... a lower paying job, I think.
 
USMLE will be a better fit for my skill profile than MCAT. For MCAT, I've had to increase my reading speed, which is doable (and is working) but much more difficult than memorization, for me anyway. That part is highly individual. To elaborate, personally, I easily remember 16 digit numbers, can figure out diagrams and geometrical drawings abnormally quickly, and am becoming a faster reader (relatively speaking, I was never super slow). Somehow that fast reading skill is more difficult for me to develop. MCAT is a reading test much more so than USMLE from my understanding.

This is so wrong. At least 90% of the 336 questions on Step 1 is preceded with a lengthy clinical vignette and you have about 1 minute per question. It is much, much, more reading intensive than the MCAT. No question.
 
There is the downside of having to feed the Snarks lurking behind the medical waste dumps each evening, not to be carried out without the ceremonial blowing of the ebony cor anglais.

Really though, it is what you make it. Some artists struggle to get by and never really get their works out there, but they stick to it because they're doing what they love. Physicians can have it rough in terms of hours and stresses on personal life and legal this-and-thats, but that's life.

As far as patents being nasty to you, my impression from hospitals is that physicians have it easier in that regard. Hang around the nurses and techs if you want a real impression of what rough patients can be like regularly.
 
Not to derail the thread, but it sounds like so many MS1 students don't go to lecture and don't have PBL sessions. Do med students study together? It seems as if med school would be isolated as well unless you are at a PBL heavy school. How do you socialize with other med students?
 
This is so wrong. At least 90% of the 336 questions on Step 1 is preceded with a lengthy clinical vignette and you have about 1 minute per question. It is much, much, more reading intensive than the MCAT. No question.

Really? Is there a realistic free practice test online for USMLE step 1?
 
Really? Is there a realistic free practice test online for USMLE step 1?

Absolutely. And the reading is even worse for steps 2 and 3 which are inherently more clinical. The saving grace with those is that if you do well on the first, the second doesn't matter. And the 3rd never matters.

Next time you're at Hastings or Barnes and Noble, check out this book: http://www.amazon.com/First-Aid-USMLE-Step-Third/dp/0071744029

It'll give you the idea
 
This is so wrong. At least 90% of the 336 questions on Step 1 is preceded with a lengthy clinical vignette and you have about 1 minute per question. It is much, much, more reading intensive than the MCAT. No question.

You read the passages for Step 1? I usually skipped to the last two lines and could answer most questions based on that alone.
 
You read the passages for Step 1? I usually skipped to the last two lines and could answer most questions based on that alone.

NBME caught onto this "trick" a long time ago. I always started by reading the last sentence - only rarely was it a stand-alone question (like it commonly was for the MCAT). It was usually something like "what is the next best step?" or "what is the most likely diagnosis?" And often some minor detail in the passage made the difference in the answer.
 
I just can't imagine not liking it. Thanks for your help.

Edit: I don't think I'm allowed to post in the doctor forums since I'm a premed. That explains my posting here. And I shortened my post. You can see the original in the quotes below.

***********
USA - not applying abroad
***********

You will work long hours in medicine. The big sacrifice in this field is time for other things. Everybody has issues balancing it all.

As for Boston (and cities of that ilk) I would tend to agree that in certain specialties the popular markets are pretty saturated and not going to ease up any time soon. So yes, depending on your specialty, you might have an easier time getting a job in a neighboring state rather than within that metropolitan area, which I assume is what you are getting at.
 
Yeah, that's what I expect to do. Or join band again or something school related, in addition to other social stuff.

USMLE will be a better fit for my skill profile than MCAT. For MCAT, I've had to increase my reading speed, which is doable (and is working) but much more difficult than memorization, for me anyway. That part is highly individual. To elaborate, personally, I easily remember 16 digit numbers, can figure out diagrams and geometrical drawings abnormally quickly, and am becoming a faster reader (relatively speaking, I was never super slow). Somehow that fast reading skill is more difficult for me to develop. MCAT is a reading test much more so than USMLE from my understanding.

And yeah, I've got some undergraduate loans, so I will need to consider salary. That's not the main reason I like medicine, but important to consider. And darn, I like emergency medicine... a lower paying job, I think.

Why are you even thinking about the USMLE right now?
 
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