So will we all grow to regret our career choice?

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She was talking about victims of abuse. Hospitals, orphanages, and schools have nothing to do with that, and do not absolve them for their treatment of women in abusive marriages.

It seemed she was making the larger point that the Church isn't charitable toward the abused and/or needy. Lots of abused people end up in hospitals and orphanages, last I checked.

Also, there is no way to know how much or even if the local diocese handling the annulment charges for it, my guess is it's case by case.

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The abuse of alcohol, cannabis or other forms of abuse and violence is hardly compatible with the Church's definition of marriage as a community of life and love. Such are grounds for an Annulment.
In the good 'ol USA they are more than willing to hand out annulments like candy. Look into their practices in places such as the Philippines and South America, where they stick to a much harder line.
 
It seemed she was making the larger point that the Church isn't charitable toward the abused and/or needy. Lots of abused people end up in hospitals and orphanages, last I checked.

Also, there is no way to know how much or even if the local diocese handling the annulment charges for it, my guess is it's case by case.
I don't think anyone would argue that the church doesn't provide plenty of valuable services toward society. I'm not going to put words in TPs mouth, so she'd have to clarify what she meant, but she's very much an advocate of women's rights and such, so I took it to be more geared toward the church's treatment of women in abusive marriages.
 
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I don't think anyone would argue that the church doesn't provide plenty of valuable services toward society. I'm not going to put words in TPs mouth, so she'd have to clarify what she meant, but she's very much an advocate of women's rights and such, so I took it to be more geared toward the church's treatment of women in abusive marriages.

I have no idea how one would go about gathering data on the Church's treatment of the female, abused, married but wanting annulment population within the Church. That's a really specific subset.
 
I have no idea how one would go about gathering data on the Church's treatment of the female, abused, married but wanting annulment population within the Church. That's a really specific subset.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/24/divorce-philippines_n_4157099.html

The Catholic church in the PI specifically fought to keep divorce illegal under all circumstances for a very, very long time. Husband have a mistress or two? Too bad! He's beating you daily? Not as bad as a trip to hell!

They're good about it in the U.S. and most developed countries, but the Catholic church treats parishioners in the developing world entirely differently. I've always been one that tends to judge an organization or a person by the way they treat the most downtrodden among us, so let's just say I'm not impressed.

Anyway, I'm done with this. Let's get back on topic.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/24/divorce-philippines_n_4157099.html

The Catholic church in the PI specifically fought to keep divorce illegal under all circumstances for a very, very long time. Husband have a mistress or two? Too bad! He's beating you daily? Not as bad as a trip to hell!

They're good about it in the U.S. and most developed countries, but the Catholic church treats parishioners in the developing world entirely differently. I've always been one that tends to judge an organization or a person by the way they treat the most downtrodden among us, so let's just say I'm not impressed.

Anyway, I'm done with this. Let's get back on topic.

You're not making the distinction between annulment and divorce. The Catholic church is against divorce in every country, not just the Phillipines. Annulment on the other hand is alive and well in the Phillipines.

"A total of 10,528 annulment cases were brought before the OSG last year, or over 1,000 cases more than the 9,133 filed in 2011, government records obtained by GMA News Online revealed.

Last year's figure was almost double the number of marriage dispute cases filed a decade ago. In 2002, a total of 5,250 couples sought to have their marriages annulled or nullified.

Gabriela Women's party-list Rep. Luzviminda Ilagan said the rising trend in marriage annulment and nullity cases in the Philippines indicates that more and more marriages have reached the point of no return in the country."

"Under Article 36 of the Philippines' Family Code, a marriage may be annulled due to lack of parental consent, force or intimidation, psychological incapacity, fraud and physical incapacity to enter the married state."
"Civil courts may grant annulments and nullity of marriage"



Why is there such a difference between being intellectually honest when making an argument for science and when making an argument against religion?
 
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You're not making the distinction between annulment and divorce. The Catholic church is against divorce in every country, not just the Phillipines. Annulment on the other hand is alive and well in the Phillipines.

"A total of 10,528 annulment cases were brought before the OSG last year, or over 1,000 cases more than the 9,133 filed in 2011, government records obtained by GMA News Online revealed.

Last year's figure was almost double the number of marriage dispute cases filed a decade ago. In 2002, a total of 5,250 couples sought to have their marriages annulled or nullified.

Gabriela Women's party-list Rep. Luzviminda Ilagan said the rising trend in marriage annulment and nullity cases in the Philippines indicates that more and more marriages have reached the point of no return in the country."

"Under Article 36 of the Philippines' Family Code, a marriage may be annulled due to lack of parental consent, force or intimidation, psychological incapacity, fraud and physical incapacity to enter the married state."
"Civil courts may grant annulments and nullity of marriage"



Why is there such a difference between being intellectually honest when making an argument for science and when making an argument against religion?
Annulment is an extremely expensive process there that essentially amounts to a bribe to the church. There's a reason that in a country with a population of nearly 100 million, only around 10,000 annulments were even attempted. Given that 14.4% of married women in the PI are victims of domestic violence, I highly doubt that that number encompasses all women that would like to have an annulment completed. They make it hard as hell to go through, and, depending on your church, charge as much as 15,000 PHP- a lot for a woman that doesn't work in a country that has a daily minimum wage of 277 PHP.
 
Making a distinction between annulment and divorce is hilarious, as if a supreme being would accept clever manipulation of man-made laws as a justifiable affront of his absolute and infallible commandments.
 
Annulment is an extremely expensive process there that essentially amounts to a bribe to the church. There's a reason that in a country with a population of nearly 100 million, only around 10,000 annulments were even attempted. Given that 14.4% of married women in the PI are victims of domestic violence, I highly doubt that that number encompasses all women that would like to have an annulment completed. They make it hard as hell to go through, and, depending on your church, charge as much as 15,000 PHP- a lot for a woman that doesn't work in a country that has a daily minimum wage of 277 PHP.

Wut?

Operational Costs of the Case:
  • Filing Fees – about Php6,000.00 (but would depend if there are properties owned by the couple)
  • Service of Summons - about Php1,000.00
  • Publication – about Php5,000.00 (if there is a need to publish the summons if it cannot be served personally)
  • Transcript of Records – about Php1,500.00 (if there are about two (2) witnesses that will be presented)
  • Mailing expenses – about Php1,000.00
  • Photocopying expenses – about Php500.00
  • Psychologist/Psychiatrist – Php10,000.00 to Php 30,000.00 (if the ground for nullity of marriage is psychological incapacity)
  • Estimated Operational Expenses – Php25,000.00
http://www.firm.batasnatin.com/practice-areas/annulment-of-marriage.html
 
Making a distinction between annulment and divorce is hilarious, as if a supreme being would accept clever manipulation of man-made laws as a justifiable affront of his absolute and infallible commandments.

Which are what, exactly?
 
Wow okay I didn't realize I was going to cause such a stink.

I never said that the Catholic Church doesn't do good works. My implication was that it doesn't have a good track record with dealing with victims of abuse. As in women in abusive relationships, or I don't know, the massive amount of children who were sexually assaulted by priests.

Listen, I was raised catholic, I went to catholic school. I'm not purposefully trying to shet on the religion I was brought up in. It's just the one I know the most about, the good and the bad.

Yes abuse is grounds for annulment, but that doesn't mean every counsel is going to allow it. You still have to prove your case, and humans are biased. Even if abuse took place it's not a get out of jail free card. You still have to go through the process and you still have to pay.
 
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What's going on in this thread?
 
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I'm not really understanding the "you have to pay for it" criticism. It's a long process full of reading papers, filling out forms, obtaining legal documents, mailing/faxing, etc. Someone has to do all of that administrative stuff in places with lights/running water, most people don't work for free and overhead isn't cheap.
 
Oh ok, so your previous comment was spoken out of complete ignorance. Got it.
The Catholic church is against divorce. Annulment is just another word for divorce because the outcome is the same: the dissolution of a marriage. You ain't fooling god, brah.
 
The Catholic church is against divorce. Annulment is just another word for divorce because the outcome is the same: the dissolution of a marriage. You ain't fooling god, brah.

The "difference" is that annulment says it wasn't a real marriage to begin with. Nice little loophole eh?
 
The Catholic church is against divorce. Annulment is just another word for divorce because the outcome is the same: the dissolution of a marriage. You ain't fooling god, brah.

All I can figure is that you're going for "likes", nothing you've said here makes any sense.
1. True
2. Wrong. Annulment means the original marriage was not a marriage. Marriage has a specific definition in the Church.
3. God isn't being fooled (nor is anyone trying to fool him, however stupid and nonsensical that is) and even allows divorce for certain reasons.

Again, your ignorance is annoying.
 
Wut?

Operational Costs of the Case:
  • Filing Fees – about Php6,000.00 (but would depend if there are properties owned by the couple)
  • Service of Summons - about Php1,000.00
  • Publication – about Php5,000.00 (if there is a need to publish the summons if it cannot be served personally)
  • Transcript of Records – about Php1,500.00 (if there are about two (2) witnesses that will be presented)
  • Mailing expenses – about Php1,000.00
  • Photocopying expenses – about Php500.00
  • Psychologist/Psychiatrist – Php10,000.00 to Php 30,000.00 (if the ground for nullity of marriage is psychological incapacity)
  • Estimated Operational Expenses – Php25,000.00
http://www.firm.batasnatin.com/practice-areas/annulment-of-marriage.html
You can do it cheaper through the church, which does a whole case for a mere 15,000 PHP, or, you know, 55 full-time days of minimum wage labor. Government annulments are more expensive and run 75,000-300,000 PHP, If the woman doesn't work and her husband controls the income, how the hell is she gonna pay for that? Churches depend on donations, they shouldn't operate like businesses. I'd consider providing the service of separating women from their violent husbands a charitable and worthwhile use of Church funds.

And I'm not "attacking" the Catholic church. I'm just saying, they have certain policy areas that could use work, particularly in regard to how they deal spousal and child abuse in developing countries. They blew enough money paying off child sex abuse scandals to pay for roughly 7,000,000 annulments, by my estimation.
What's going on in this thread?
We accidentally mixed the bottles labeled "internet" and "religion."
But-Diddy-has-good-advice-on-how-to-handle-awards-season..gif
 
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All I can figure is that you're going for "likes", nothing you've said here makes any sense.
1. True
2. Wrong. Annulment means the original marriage was not a marriage. Marriage has a specific definition in the Church.
3. God isn't being fooled (nor is anyone trying to fool him, however stupid and nonsensical that is) and even allows divorce for certain reasons.

Again, your ignorance is annoying.
So a couple has a wonderful loving marriage for 10 years, then a guy starts cheating on a girl, she catches him cheating, they get into an awful spiral of fighting about everything until he turns to violence, and then suddenly the last 10 years doesn't count? Annulled? Gone? Despite the fact that if that guy had been hit by a truck before he turned to cheating, they would have died "married" in the eyes of the church? Yeah, that's not a loophole at all. :rolleyes:

Future actions can't undo the past, that's why the whole annulment thing is BS.
 
I think the resentment comes from the stupid bullcrap that most people delude themselves with. The idea of picking a specialty because you love it is an absolute joke. Ten or twenty years down the line, the novelty of being a big swinging dick surgeon or a "pillar of the community" family medicine doctor are going to wear off. Eventually you'll get tired of working 70 hours a week or playing social worker for free and the only thing you'll have left is income and lifestyle. I suppose this ties in with unrealistic expectations as well. Medicine isn't a holy calling, it's a job.
I'm waiting for someone to reply to this.
 
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You can do it cheaper through the church, which does a whole case for a mere 15,000 PHP, or, you know, 55 full-time days of minimum wage labor. Government annulments are more expensive and run 75,000-300,000 PHP, If the woman doesn't work and her husband controls the income, how the hell is she gonna pay for that? Churches depend on donations, they shouldn't operate like businesses. I'd consider providing the service of separating women from their violent husbands a charitable and worthwhile use of Church funds.

Again, like I said, it's case by case.

Official position from the Church
"
The Tribunal Process. The process of obtaining a Decree of Nullity entails submitting the facts of the marriage, with supporting witnesses, to the diocesan marriage tribunal. Either party can do this. Then after a evaluation of these facts a judgment on the validity of the marriage is made. A second court, usually a neighboring diocese, must verify the judgment and it must be approved by one's bishop. Whatever decision is made, it may be appealed to the Roman Rota (the Holy See's court for matrimonial cases).

Since this is a voluntary process most dioceses have a fee to cover administrative costs. If this fee is a hardship an individual should ask that it be waived."

Not everyone who wants an annulment, can't afford it.
Not everyone who can't afford it, pays for it.
 
So a couple has a wonderful loving marriage for 10 years, then a guy starts cheating on a girl, she catches him cheating, they get into an awful spiral of fighting about everything until he turns to violence, and then suddenly the last 10 years doesn't count? Annulled? Gone? Despite the fact that if that guy had been hit by a truck before he turned to cheating, they would have died "married" in the eyes of the church? Yeah, that's not a loophole at all. :rolleyes:

Future actions can't undo the past, that's why the whole annulment thing is BS.

I know when we've reached the absurd hypotheticals part of the discussion, we've long since past the constructive dialogue part so I'll just bow out here.
 
I know when we've reached the absurd hypotheticals part of the discussion, we've long since past the constructive dialogue part so I'll just bow out here.
It's a legit question. Domestic violence isn't something that always occurs throughout the duration of a marriage, it's often something that happens after a triggering event (loss of a job, infidelity, etc.). So these marriages are suddenly illegitimate from the beginning after the guy goes batshiat, despite all the way up until that point it had been a perfectly normal marriage? Does he hit her so hard his fist flies back in time and slaps her unconscious at the altar before she can say "I do?" Annulment, how does it work?
 
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It's a legit question. Domestic violence isn't something that always occurs throughout the duration of a marriage, it's often something that happens after a triggering event (loss of a job, infidelity, etc.). So these marriages are suddenly illegitimate from the beginning after the guy goes batshiat, despite all the way up until that point it had been a perfectly normal marriage? Does he hit her so hard his fist flies back in time and slaps her unconscious at the altar before she can say "I do?" Annulment, how does it work?

These are questions that can be answered by using your google prowess. I'm positive that no one here is really all that interested in the subject. Also, I'm not an annulment expert, apologist, nor am I even Catholic. But I do appreciate intellectual honesty in all debates, I think I've gone as far as is reasonable to combat some of the ignorance/bias on the topic here, that's about all I've got though.
 
I'm waiting for someone to reply to this.
What reply is there? You're right. The ones that get disappointed are those that neglect the fact that medicine is just one aspect of their lives, not its entirety. They put everything into their career and then realize one day that they can't remember the last time they spent a day out with their kids, honing their skills at a hobby, or doing anything fulfilling that didn't require charting afterward. I've seen those types get yelled at by their wives every now and again in the cafeteria, like the world-class pediatrician who spent all his extra time doing research that was called out for his wife for "pretending to be a father" and "never being there for anything." Other popular snark includes things along the lines of, "I didn't realize I had a husband, I never see you" and "I could leave and you wouldn't even know I was gone."

Point being, people shouldn't be working themselves 70-80 hours a week after residency. They should be making time for other things in their lives and have some balance. If medicine is the only thing a person cares about and the thing from which they expect all the answers and happiness in their life to come, they're going to end up pretty damn miserable in the end.
 
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Wow okay I didn't realize I was going to cause such a stink.

I never said that the Catholic Church doesn't do good works. My implication was that it doesn't have a good track record with dealing with victims of abuse. As in women in abusive relationships, or I don't know, the massive amount of children who were sexually assaulted by priests.

Listen, I was raised catholic, I went to catholic school. I'm not purposefully trying to shet on the religion I was brought up in. It's just the one I know the most about, the good and the bad.

Yes abuse is grounds for annulment, but that doesn't mean every counsel is going to allow it. You still have to prove your case, and humans are biased. Even if abuse took place it's not a get out of jail free card. You still have to go through the process and you still have to pay.

I stirred the pot when I quoted you, my bad.

I'm easily irritated by this subject, but the internet is a terrible place to discuss it.
I don't have time to talk about it right now, and I'm happy to let it drop.

Last thing I'll say: clergy are a pretty heterogeneous group. Some are bastards. My experience has generally been positive, but I have been to churches/met clergy who were unbelievably backwards. I'm sorry if you met more of those ones than the kind, intelligent and thoughtful individuals I have met.
 
I wonder how many of these burntout physicians and residents have held other menial (or even skilled) jobs outside of medicine. I also wonder how much of what sucks in healthcare isn't plaguing other fields. That's not to suggest having had a different career is insurance against regret, or that these gripes aren't legitimate, but rather that maybe some context without the healthcare bubble might be lacking?
This is a good pont. And my guess is that this burnt-out attitude might be more prevalent in physicians that never held a job in their lives, until becoming attending/residents. They speak without proper perspective, because they don't have another frame of reference. For myself, I think I know what I want at this point in my life; after 10+ years in public health surveillance and basic science research I am running to medicine.
 
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Oh geez, did I say anything even remotely close to that? No, I'm simply discussing the logic (whether you want to agree or not) of putting other things/people before one's creator. So your statement of what religious people should do, is illogical for religious people and incorrect. Which is what Anastomoses was probably pointing out, as well.
I'm not sure what the definition of idolatry is but it's intrinsically illogical to put anything before your god in the Abrahamic religions. I don't know enough about any others but assuming this world is ephemeral while eternity awaits...doesn't take much to figure out how you need to prioritize. In Islam, while you are allowed to deny your god to those who threaten your life - it also offers that when one is at "day of judgment" they will be willing to sell their kids and parents down the river for salvation.

Now you're confusing logic with religion.

So you can't divorce your abusive spouse because the bible says so?

See above. FWIW in Islam you're allowed to divorce your spouse for being bad in bed + for having halitosis.
 
I'm not sure what the definition of idolatry is but it's intrinsically illogical to put anything before your god in the Abrahamic religions. I don't know enough about any others but assuming this world is ephemeral while eternity awaits...doesn't take much to figure out how you need to prioritize. In Islam, while you are allowed to deny your god to those who threaten your life - it also offers that when one is at "day of judgment" they will be willing to sell their kids and parents down the river for salvation.



See above. FWIW in Islam you're allowed to divorce your spouse for being bad in bed + for having halitosis.

Nothing about religion is logical. Logic is based on reason and facts. I'm not saying logic is better than religion, but religion certainly isn't logical.

I didn't make it clear, but I was using Christianity as my example. I don't know the rules of Islam.
 
It's a legit question. Domestic violence isn't something that always occurs throughout the duration of a marriage, it's often something that happens after a triggering event (loss of a job, infidelity, etc.). So these marriages are suddenly illegitimate from the beginning after the guy goes batshiat, despite all the way up until that point it had been a perfectly normal marriage? Does he hit her so hard his fist flies back in time and slaps her unconscious at the altar before she can say "I do?" Annulment, how does it work?
I was kind of hoping for one of the "YOU CAN STILL HAVE A LIFE WHILE WORKING 80 HOURS A WEEK" idiots to chime in.
 
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Nothing about religion is logical. Logic is based on reason and facts. I'm not saying logic is better than religion, but religion certainly isn't logical.

I didn't make it clear, but I was using Christianity as my example. I don't know the rules of Islam.
You can group Islam in the same boat. The variances are similar enough to Protestantism vs Catholicism in this regard.

And to your first comment, I'm not trying to argue but technically you can base logic on things other than "facts". Reason is a slippery term in this context. If I feel bad when I'm around pretty people, is it logical that I should avoid them when I can?

Long story short, you can often accept an illogical or undisprovable premise (sometimes based on emotion or brainwashing or fantasy) and begin to reason from that point - which is what Aquinas and plenty of religious people regularly make a bad attempt at doing.
 
I'm waiting for someone to reply to this.
And now you know why Radiology, Ophtho, Anesthesia, Derm, Psych, PM&R, Path, Allergy, Rheum, etc. are popular. Just go to the Surgery thread. It would be labeled depression in other cirumstances, which is why the cloak themselves in the "we care for our patients more than you do" cape.
 
And now you know why Radiology, Ophtho, Anesthesia, Derm, Psych, PM&R, Path, Allergy, Rheum, etc. are popular. Just go to the Surgery thread. It would be labeled depression in other cirumstances, which is why the cloak themselves in the "we care for our patients more than you do" cape.

Otherwise known as Stockholm Syndrome. House of God should be mandatory reading during the third year. We already have group whining sessions and other nonsense pulling us from the clinical domain, so we might as well add that book to the plate. It would give people some perspective and make them realize how crazy the system is.
 
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Otherwise known as Stockholm Syndrome. House of God should be mandatory reading during the third year. We already have group whining sessions and other nonsense pulling us from the clinical domain, so we might as well add that book to the plate. It would give people some perspective and make them realize how crazy the system is.
For most premeds/med students who read that book, it's a joke/satire book. Of course, since MS-3 at many medical schools has become such a joke anyways, when it comes to med students actually doing something, might as well.
 
For most premeds/med students who read that book, it's a joke/satire book. Of course, since MS-3 at many medical schools has become such a joke anyways, when it comes to med students actually doing something, might as well.
I read it after my sub internship. It put into words and helped me crystalize what I had experienced from the previous year and a half.

Then again, we have a brutal third year where I am.
 
I read it after my sub internship. It put into words and helped me crystalize what I had experienced from the previous year and a half. Then again, we have a brutal third year where I am.
I meant MS-3s doing something of significance. The brutality is still there regardless of course.
 
hell no, there is always time for a switch to long distance trucker career .
i hope
 
I'd known then what I know now, I wouldn't have done this.
if i had a cent for everytime i hear that, i'de probably have 2 dollars by now.

I would think medical profession is at higher risk. All our lifes are/were at least a bit competitive with some sort of pressure to acheive certain goals, many things missed/postponed, many people ask me amazed how i am in medical school i must be brilliant, but they do anger me because it was all work and discipline.
it is a race to the top based on the career but you reach and then you find nothing, unless you have feet solid on the ground.
Still midlife crisis, plagues everyone.
So YOLO mtfcks
 
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And now you know why Radiology, Ophtho, Anesthesia, Derm, Psych, PM&R, Path, Allergy, Rheum, etc. are popular. Just go to the Surgery thread. It would be labeled depression in other cirumstances, which is why the cloak themselves in the "we care for our patients more than you do" cape.

how would we go about fixing this?

introduce more lifestyle surgical positions? why hasn't surgery regulated itself?
 
how would we go about fixing this?

introduce more lifestyle surgical positions? why hasn't surgery regulated itself?
Surgery has lifestyle subspecialties, which are competitive as well. That being said, most med students don't want to go through five years of grueling Gen Surgery just for the possibility of getting it.
 
Annulment is an extremely expensive process there that essentially amounts to a bribe to the church. There's a reason that in a country with a population of nearly 100 million, only around 10,000 annulments were even attempted. Given that 14.4% of married women in the PI are victims of domestic violence, I highly doubt that that number encompasses all women that would like to have an annulment completed. They make it hard as hell to go through, and, depending on your church, charge as much as 15,000 PHP- a lot for a woman that doesn't work in a country that has a daily minimum wage of 277 PHP.
annulment is a farse.
1. I think they had preplanned the conversation and were hinting at something for you.
2. Attending is an idiot. I have seen people with amazing genes whose histories looked like they should be limping and coughing with purple skin + maybe even had high cholesterol from their unhealthiness. And others who looked older than their age despite no serious problems and good diet. I'm not saying diet doesn't play a role...but I would just expect a doctor not to make such a silly glib remark based on a single patient.
3. I won't regret medicine. Basic sciences has been one of the best times of my life. What's to regret?
you could have inserted basically anything but "basic sciences" to make the last statement somewhat agreeable.
 
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When I hear "live fast and die young" I think smokejumpers, fighter pilots, and alaska fisherman.

A med resident saying it...nah.

Was that even a real convo OP? Sounded kinda artificial.
putting an iv in a Hiv+ patient is more dangerous than carpet bombing Iraq.
my dad plans on working until the day he dies

when he was a resident, one of his mentors did that. dude was 84. he saw patients in the morning, went home for lunch, took a nap and never woke up.
holy **** that is depressing, I would never accept that, I have been thinking up bedside jokes during rounds all these years, i have to have a chance at using them as a patient, someday.
 
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I was sure to only double my supervising resident's work. Tripling was reserved for the lesser MS3s :p
Then those lesser MS-3s are pissed they didn't get Honors.
 
medicine is sort of like capitalism- it aint great but its the best system(job) there is
 
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