Some naturopathic "doctors" are now referring to themselves as NMD's

Mehd School

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http://markstengler.com/

I just found this guys book on my dad's coffee table. Snake oils sales pitching aside, how can ND's legally list themselves as NMD's? I searched, and none of the naturopathic "medical" schools offer the NMD degree. It's deceiving. Someone who doesn't know better thinks they get the same education as MD's (and DO's minus OMM) except they focus more on natural remedies compared to those toxic pharmaceuticals normal doctors deal out. They're clinging to the MD letters to give themselves more relevance.

What are your thoughts on this? Most people will say I'm overreacting, but if you search into the north west medical news, it's apparent how hard they're trying to encroach on actual physician's turf.

Ps, I found "Dr." Stengler's rant on the myth of vaccines to be very dangerous.
 

Haxx

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Oh my. That's all I've got for now after reading through that website.
 
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Back 5

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Well, historically, all MD's were Naturopaths in the beginning. The entire basis of pharmaceuticals is based on botany.
 
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TopTomato

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Well according to Wikipedia they do refer to themselves as either NDs or NMDs.

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This is the scary because people will listen to his advice because they think he's a "physician"

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It says in his "about me" section that "Naturopathic medical education taught Dr. Stengler the same basic sciences studied by MD candidates", so he is more or less the exact same as an MD. Since it's on the internet it must be true.
 

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To my knowledge, a NMD is considered as a legitimate "physician" in some states, not all 50 states. They're allowed to do professional consultations and write prescriptions.
 

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Up here in the PNW even chiropractors are doing women's health exams and minor surgery. At least they are taught to in school.

I have a neighbor who was complaining about having to learn that stuff in Chiro school, apparently they are allowed to do it in some states.
 
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Mehd School

Mehd School

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It says in his "about me" section that "Naturopathic medical education taught Dr. Stengler the same basic sciences studied by MD candidates", so he is more or less the exact same as an MD. Since it's on the internet it must be true.
There is also a table that states that a medical doctor completes 0 intern hours. If it weren't so scary it would be hilarious.
 
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Mehd School

Mehd School

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Well according to Wikipedia they do refer to themselves as either NDs or NMDs.

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Can they legally do so? None of their "med" schools award a NMD degree. I know I won't be able to put MDO after my name in 4 years.
 

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I'm anything but a supporter of naturopathic "medicine" but I really don't see what the big deal is with NMD vs. ND... just like I don't think that if the DO profession changed the degree to MDO or DOM it would change anything about the public's perception. People don't assume the DMD dentists are smarter or more capable than DDS dentists. A lot of people don't MD opthomologists and don't automatically realize that they are in fact different than an OD. People see female or minority doctors and assume they must be a nurse or a tech or something. People think DC's are physicians.

People think a lot of things.
 

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For whatever reason, the Northwest area of the country is very receptive to snake oil salesmen Chiros, nauropaths, homeopaths. ND's can prescribe medicine and perform surgery in Oregon and Washington lol.
 

NurWollen

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For whatever reason, the Northwest area of the country is very receptive to snake oil salesmen Chiros, nauropaths, homeopaths. ND's can prescribe medicine and perform surgery in Oregon and Washington lol.
Isn't it ironic? I mean you'd think the 'liberal' northwest, which is one of the most progressive, secular parts of the country, would be firmly in the logic/science/reason camp.
 
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jayoh

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Isn't it ironic? I mean you'd think the 'liberal' northwest, which is one of the most progressive, secular parts of the country, would be firmly in the logic/science/reason camp.
 
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Isn't it ironic? I mean you'd think the 'liberal' northwest, which is one of the most progressive, secular parts of the country, would be firmly in the logic/science/reason camp.
It is kind of funny, I've never even heard of a Naturopath until people brought up threads about it on SDN. Part of me is mad that these people are even allowed to practice and perform "surgery" without a true formal medical education. However another part of me wants to say that this problem is going to weed itself out eventually due to its lack of scientific/medical backing. Chiropractors seem to be not as popular as they once were, I kinda expect that to happen with this naturopath
 

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Ahh, nothing like the smell of quackery in the morning.

http://markstengler.com/

I just found this guys book on my dad's coffee table. Snake oils sales pitching aside, how can ND's legally list themselves as NMD's? I searched, and none of the naturopathic "medical" schools offer the NMD degree. It's deceiving. Someone who doesn't know better thinks they get the same education as MD's (and DO's minus OMM) except they focus more on natural remedies compared to those toxic pharmaceuticals normal doctors deal out. They're clinging to the MD letters to give themselves more relevance.

What are your thoughts on this? Most people will say I'm overreacting, but if you search into the north west medical news, it's apparent how hard they're trying to encroach on actual physician's turf.

Ps, I found "Dr." Stengler's rant on the myth of vaccines to be very dangerous.
 

Instatewaiter

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When NDs treat the worried well, I have no problem with it. Perhaps it will make people eat better. However, when they have their cancer patients stop chemo or their severe CAD patients stop their beta blockers and statins they should be sued into the ground. When I finish training, I personally will go after these quacks. An ND who knows their limitations is fine and can help people with their lifestyle modification. An ND who oversteps their bounds is a danger.

When I was in residency, I had a patient who had leukemia and went through the first round of chemo. He had a fabulous response. Had he stuck around for his consolidation treatment, there was a very high likelihood he would have been cured. Instead, he started going to a naturopath who did homeopathy. That quack coaxed him into stopping chemo and instead doing some snake oil. The guy came back a little over a year later with raging leukemia. He died from his leukemia in the hospital. I really wanted to shake the guy and his wife and say, "You moron. Your choice KILLED YOU! Your Homeopath KILLED you!"

But I couldn't. The guy was in a terrible place and already knew. I just wish he told his new age friends the consequence of his choice.
 

NurWollen

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When NDs treat the worried well, I have no problem with it. Perhaps it will make people eat better. However, when they have their cancer patients stop chemo or their severe CAD patients stop their beta blockers and statins they should be sued into the ground. When I finish training, I personally will go after these quacks. An ND who knows their limitations is fine and can help people with their lifestyle modification. An ND who oversteps their bounds is a danger.

When I was in residency, I had a patient who had leukemia and went through the first round of chemo. He had a fabulous response. Had he stuck around for his consolidation treatment, there was a very high likelihood he would have been cured. Instead, he started going to a naturopath who did homeopathy. That quack coaxed him into stopping chemo and instead doing some snake oil. The guy came back a little over a year later with raging leukemia. He died from his leukemia in the hospital. I really wanted to shake the guy and his wife and say, "You moron. Your choice KILLED YOU! Your Homeopath KILLED you!"

But I couldn't. The guy was in a terrible place and already knew. I just wish he told his new age friends the consequence of his choice.
At what point do we as a society limit the right to free speech in regards to quackery? I mean, I'm a big Bill-of-Rights kind of guy, but obviously there are limits... I mean, aren't some homeopathic/naturopathic 'treatments' poisonous, not necessarily by what they can do to you but by what they can't do for you? Isn't convincing a cancer patient to stop chemo and take useless dilutions-especially for ones own profit- the moral equivalent of poisoning people?
 
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Instatewaiter

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Technically it's not free speech. If you as a doctor give dangerous advice to your patient, you are still liable. Unfortunately most medical boards don't really have the teeth to do much about this. There is precedent where medical boards went after chiropractors and it was viewed as trying to enforce a monopoly.
 

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I've had to deal with this aversion to "Allopathic medicine" my entire life from my family, highschool friends, and even my girlfriends. A simple thing like telling someone to take an ibuprofen becomes an invitation to listening to a rant about the body's adaptive ability, the evils of modern medicine, and the gift of the spiritual natural healing force and w/e nonsensical bull**** some long-bearded meditating tai-chi mofo told them.

These days, I couldn't give a rat's ass about their minor ****, but if some POS mangosteen carp, acai berry, wheat grass and carrot juicing SOB tells my mom to drop her insulin or my dad to chuck out his statins I'm gonna rage.
 
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Mad Jack

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From wiki

, or naturopathic medicine, is a pseudo-scientific form of alternative medicine based on a belief in vitalism, which posits that a special energy called vital energy or vital force o_O.


The vital force?
"Well, the Force is what gives a naturopathic physician their power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." -Dr. Mark Stengler Kenobi, Naturopathic Physician
 
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This reminds me of a woman who had waited too long to get her "annoying little cyst" checked. Instead, she gave hundreds of dollars to her local Big Name herbal sales rep. She was in the hospice wing the last time I checked.
 
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"Well, the Force is what gives a naturopathic physician their power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." -Dr. Mark Stengler Kenobi, Naturopathic Physician
Sheesh. The forces of physics that operate on a naturopathic physician - and all living things - are the same forces that operate on a dumb rock.
 

NurWollen

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This reminds me of a woman who had waited too long to get her "annoying little cyst" checked. Instead, she gave hundreds of dollars to her local Big Name herbal sales rep. She was in the hospice wing the last time I checked.
That's the huge irony here. These people rant about 'Big Pharma' lining doctors' pockets with dirty money so they can keep selling their "toxins." Meanwhile these same people drop thousands on multi-level marketing companies' 'natural remedies.'
 

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When NDs treat the worried well, I have no problem with it. Perhaps it will make people eat better. However, when they have their cancer patients stop chemo or their severe CAD patients stop their beta blockers and statins they should be sued into the ground. When I finish training, I personally will go after these quacks. An ND who knows their limitations is fine and can help people with their lifestyle modification. An ND who oversteps their bounds is a danger.

When I was in residency, I had a patient who had leukemia and went through the first round of chemo. He had a fabulous response. Had he stuck around for his consolidation treatment, there was a very high likelihood he would have been cured. Instead, he started going to a naturopath who did homeopathy. That quack coaxed him into stopping chemo and instead doing some snake oil. The guy came back a little over a year later with raging leukemia. He died from his leukemia in the hospital. I really wanted to shake the guy and his wife and say, "You moron. Your choice KILLED YOU! Your Homeopath KILLED you!"

But I couldn't. The guy was in a terrible place and already knew. I just wish he told his new age friends the consequence of his choice.
That wasn't a homeopath. That was a devious crook.
 

Mad Jack

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That wasn't a homeopath. That was a devious crook.
There's a difference? What else would you call a person that dilutes something to the point that the chances of even an atom of the active ingredient actually being present are infintesimally small and then sells said concoction to people to cure their illnesses?
 

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There's a difference? What else would you call a person that dilutes something to the point that the chances of even an atom of the active ingredient actually being present are infintesimally small and then sells said concoction to people to cure their illnesses?
What else would I call them besides crook? Thief, swindler and robber...etc.

The naturopathic philosophy teaches ND's to use alternative medicine as a *complement* to conventional medicine. It sucks that we got quacks on the loose that gives those *real* homeopaths a bad name.

I am open to those who are ND's because I come from a country where natural medicine is a big thing and has helped those live a healthier lifestyle or cured minor, non-threatening ailments, but never did they ignore to go to a medical doctor in life-threatening situations.
 

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This makes me mad. According to him, one of the root causes of UC/Crohn's disease are "poor lifestyle choices." Among other causes are "free radicals."

His solution? Drink more water and eat more protein, brah.

I'm so sad that there may be people taking this stuff seriously because they don't know any better :(
The worst part is that many are otherwise intelligent people that have bought into the whole "big pharma is out to get you" and "big business will kill you for a dollar" mindset that has become so prevalent. Many of them are on the political left, but so hardened in their belief that big business is evil that they believe almost all large businesses MUST have an evil streak. Therefore vaccines are a lie, wheat is a plot from big agriculture to get us all addicted to a product that kills us, and paleolithic diets, homeopathy, and naturopathic medicine must therefore be the answer. They totally neglect that people live almost twice as long as they did before wheat became a staple crop and modern medicine became the institution that it is today, fervently insisting that everything is a conspiracy and we should all be practicing natural medicine and eating like cavemen that lived to ripe old age of 30.

In the words of Tim Minchin, we have a name for alternative medicine that works: medicine. Watch below if this sort of thing gets on your nerves and you want a good laugh or whatever.

 

Mad Jack

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What else would I call them besides crook? Thief, swindler and robber...etc.

The naturopathic philosophy teaches ND's to use alternative medicine as a *complement* to conventional medicine. It sucks that we got quacks on the loose that gives those *real* homeopaths a bad name.

I am open to those who are ND's because I come from a country where natural medicine is a big thing and has helped those live a healthier lifestyle or cured minor, non-threatening ailments, but never did they ignore to go to a medical doctor in life-threatening situations.
Homeopathy is NOT the same as naturopathic medicine. Homeopathy is a very specific type of alternative medicine that relies on the theory of serial dilutions. Do not ever confuse the two. Naturopathic medicine has its merits, homeopathy is a steaming pile of BS. Most people are completely unaware of the difference. This is why things like calling naturopathic doctors NMDs must not pass. It blurs lines that should not be blurred and leads people to confuse things that should not be confused. Next thing you know, they'll be claiming they're practically DOs, because we do some alternative medicine ourselves, so they should have full practice rights, right? Read below to get an understanding of homeopathy, and you'll be as upset as I was when I realized just how much people were being swindled by it, no doubt.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html
 

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The naturopathic philosophy teaches ND's to use alternative medicine as a *complement* to conventional medicine. It sucks that we got quacks on the loose that gives those *real* homeopaths a bad name.
Real? There is no basis behind homeopathy. It is snake oil at its finest.
 
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touchpause13

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This makes me mad. According to him, one of the root causes of UC/Crohn's disease are "poor lifestyle choices." Among other causes are "free radicals."

His solution? Drink more water and eat more protein, brah.

I'm so sad that there may be people taking this stuff seriously because they don't know any better :(
Jimmies. Are. Rustled.
 

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i just had a friend get into one of these schools. im just interested in the different opinions of naturopathy out there.
i still dont really know what to think of it haha
 

touchpause13

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Most people here are going to have the same opinion. They are a sham. They do not practice evidence based medicine and can be potentially dangerous to patients if they are taking the advice of a naturopath over a physician
 
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touchpause13

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I see nothing in that link that recognizes naturopaths as equivalent to MD/DOs.
 

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According to this website, Naturopath's are in fact medical doctors. The state of Arizona clearly recognizes naturopathic physicians as is evidenced by this medical board. While I am not keenly aware of what their job actually entails, I do know that naturopathic schools are somewhat competitive, the admissions prerequisites fall somewhere between PA and MD, and programs require at least 3 years of "naturopathic medical education." Can someone shed some light on this? Are they legit or not?

I find the divide between what people on this board are saying and what this website depicts as unusual and bothersome. One side we have people describing naturopaths as anything but doctors and another side clearly labeling them as medical examiners. Which is it? Someone is clearly wrong on this issue

http://www.aznd.gov/agency/pages/formDoc.asp?theType=0&section=41&Go=Go
I will leave this one to someone who has analyzed the issue far more thoroughly than I:

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

They are quacks, plain and simple. Some of their medicine is not quackery, but the majority of it is. They're glorified witch doctors that use folk remedies, herbs, and other traditional treatments that sometimes happen to work but are just as often ineffective. Their explanation for the mechanisms behind even the somewhat effective treatments that they offer is often half-assed whargharbl that just doesn't fly in an age of science and reason. They actually believe in homeopathy FFS.
 
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That link adds zero validity to their naturopathic practice. It is just the minimum state guidelines to "practice," their vitamin/supplement pushing, check-ups, blood work to make money from people. It is sad to be honest, even people as intelligent as Steve Jobs admitted to wasting time with this alternative medicine, when a real doctor advised to have surgery much earlier in the diagnosis.
 

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They are quacks, plain and simple. Some of their medicine is not quackery, but the majority of it is. They're glorified witch doctors that use folk remedies, herbs, and other traditional treatments that sometimes happen to work but are just as often ineffective. Their explanation for the mechanisms behind even the somewhat effective treatments that they offer is often half-assed whargharbl that just doesn't fly in an age of science and reason. They actually believe in homeopathy FFS.
Well to be fair the same can be said about Osteopathy. Some things are helpful and some things are quackery (i.e. Cranial)