Some real questions for EVERYBODY posting on the Caribbean forum...

[JohnWood15]

I was reading through these threads and well, I have some questions...

1. How many of you commenting on the Caribbean medical school path REALLY have some type of knowledge about the admissions process, the medical education itself, and then the match rate at each of these schools as they exist TODAY? Not last year, not a decade ago, not through a friend or even "someone you know"...but personal intimate knowledge of these programs as they exist today. And then how many of you admittedly actually know nothing about any of those things and still decide to put in your .02 anyway knowing full well you have no idea what you are talking about?

2. What exactly is the underlying message here regarding Caribbean medical schools? I don't understand if people are actually encouraging people to succeed, if people are discouraging people from succeeding, or if people are simply spewing their bias regardless of whether a prospective students succeeds or does not succeed in becoming a physician. We have people posting here claiming to be students, people claiming to be graduates, and even a few "program directors" who appear to not be fans of Caribbean medical students oddly giving their input to prospective Caribbean medical students but I just can't seem to figure out if we are encouraging others to succeed or just injecting our own personal biases into the legitimate career aspirations of people we know nothing about, people who might be very different than us, and people whom we will probably never see in our life. I mean if someone wants to go to the Caribbean to become a physician, do you feel better about yourself discouraging them not to try even though you know nothing about them, their motivation, and then knowing that there is absolutely no way to predict their ultimate outcome?

A lot of the information on this part of SDN is very vague at best and not convincing. All I have found are personal opinions and data that can only infer a possible outcome at best. There is absolutely zero advice or statistical data on this forum that can predict anyone's outcome with any type of absoluteness. We all know people match from the Caribbean and, as far as I can tell, that really has not changed drastically considering some people have posted that all Caribbean Schools should have been closed by today. So if people do succeed down this route --and I'm talking about the most legitimate two or three schools, what is the real message you guys are trying to send to someone, who you do not know, who asks "should I go to the Caribbean?"

Is the answer "are you able to write a check?" or "do you want to be bankrupt with no chance of practicing medicine." really the best you can do? Is that 100% accurate? If not, then that's not real advice to be honest.

St. George's University recently graduated 900 or so MD's a few days ago. I'm just curious how some of you guys come up with an explanation for that. You obviously don't know those 900 graduates on a personal level let alone know anything about their stats or the PD's that gave them the green light so who's to say some prospective student cannot one day be in that cohort if some cohort of Caribbean medical students is obviously succeeding?

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[Raney Schauer]

This part of SDN is the equivalent of a seedy bar on a desert planet.

 

[Caribpro]

many of the people that comment here are kids who are part of the 50% of students that get dismissed from Ross/SGU/the other "big" schools due the business model and they are rightfully pissed.

there are a handful of US MD/PhD/PD's here that like to act as if they have some info about the medical school culture in the Caribbean, but they do not, at all.

there are a handful of successful grads from the Caribbean who come to defend their alma maters- many of them graduated 10+ years ago.

the other large group of people that comment here are kids who have zero clue about the Caribbean and have likely never even stepped foot on one of the islands. they come to just regurgitate the negative info they read and act as if they are contributing. My suspicion is this group is mainly composed of people who have zero chance of making it into a US MD or DO program and they have some sort of chip on their shoulder and posting here is some sort of defense mechanism/anxiety reliever due to their own insecurities.

 

[deleted480308]

Sgu has a matriculation to match rate of about 50% so yes, I do feel good about warning people to not take the risk

 

[mcat_taker]

I mean if you've spent enough time on these forums you know that there are several very good posters here who have plenty of experience with the Caribbean like argus, bedeviled ben, skip intro and others who graduated from those programs.

You would also see the main themes that come up time and again here- it isn't rocket science dude. It is not hard to get into a Caribbean school. They take a lot of premed students. Unfortunately not all those students are academically capable of handling a med school curriculum and some will fail out. It is rigorous. It is rigorous anywhere in the world. Getting into those schools is not the hard part but some students think it is. It's successfully getting through it- when you combine laxer admissions and the same level of difficulty as any other med school you get a higher failure rate. Not everyone who wants to be a doctor should become a doctor. People who struggled in undergrad and on the MCAT likely have academic issues that will not be solved magically in the Caribbean in more grueling classes and exams. Obviously there are always exceptions, people use data to warn people because it's the best information they have. You are right, no one can predict if any one student will be successful but that doesn't mean that you can't use data or give advice to someone trying to pursue the carib with a 490 MCAT and a 2.7 GPA. Otherwise why use statistics for anything if your argument is that you can't absolutely predict any one person's chances? Scoring low on standardized tests before med school is a big red flag. Any med student can tell you this. U.S. students achieved a high enough baseline to get accepted that passing isn't as much of an issue there. Wanting people to succeed and giving realistic advice is important. Yes this thread gets negative at times but thats because a lot of premeds come onto this thread seeking advice without being realistic about what it means to go to med school. And yes you can usually ignore the posters who simply regurgitate can you write a check or do you want to end up driving for uber but there are a lot of other more thoughtful replies to sift through.

Obviously high achieving students will probably be successful anywhere and there are lots of students who fall through the gaps in American MD admissions and go to the Caribbean and do fine. No one is denying the many residency matches and comparable education at the big carib schools, but rather trying to be realistic when low achieving premed students come onto the forum and don't really know whether they are cut out or not for med school. The better posters on here never tell anyone they shouldn't go but rather explain why it is or isn't a good idea. And sometimes it just isn't a good idea.

 

[JohnWood15]

many of the people that comment here are kids who are part of the 50% of students that get dismissed from Ross/SGU/the other "big" schools due the business model and they are rightfully pissed.

there are a handful of US MD/PhD/PD's here that like to act as if they have some info about the medical school culture in the Caribbean, but they do not, at all.

there are a handful of successful grads from the Caribbean who come to defend their alma maters- many of them graduated 10+ years ago.

the other large group of people that comment here are kids who have zero clue about the Caribbean and have likely never even stepped foot on one of the islands. they come to just regurgitate the negative info they read and act as if they are contributing. My suspicion is this group is mainly composed of people who have zero chance of making it into a US MD or DO program and they have some sort of chip on their shoulder and posting here is some sort of defense mechanism/anxiety reliever due to their own insecurities.

That would make sense.

I'd still like to hear from some of the graduates and the program directors who are giving advice here. I honestly believe the Caribbean bias is more of a regional issue. A lot of these schools have strongholds in certain parts of the country so you could be from lets say Missouri and have no idea where SGU or Ross are located and/or what SGU and Ross even mean. In the NY/NJ/CT area and FL, I think most every pre-med, med-student, and PD is familiar with SGU/Ross/Saba/AUC/AUA and hell, maybe even Trinity lol because this is where those students do most of their rotations. So I can understand regional bias but not bias towards the process itself when that process is producing graduates as has been for decades.

 

[JohnWood15]

Sgu has a matriculation to match rate of about 50% so yes, I do feel good about warning people to not take the risk

What is your relationship to SGU?

 

[deleted480308]

What is your relationship to SGU?

Guy who can do long division

(Matched students per year)/(Matriculants per year)

 

[JohnWood15]

Guy who can do long division

(Matched students per year)/(Matriculants per year)

OK, so you're the guy who wants to "warn" everybody not to go to the Caribbean so the schools can eventually shut down since nobody will be attending because you said not to go to the Caribbean. My argument then would be, 900 people should immediately apply to SGU because there are apparently 900 spots (as of 2018) up for grabs.

For this argument, I'm not using division, I'm using nice, round, whole numbers.

 

[Caribpro]

I'd still like to hear from some of the graduates and the program directors who are giving advice here.

There is some valuable info to be gained from talking to graduates for sure, but I would argue that they would only be able to provide insight into their specific school and only for a relatively short amount of time after they graduated (the islands and schools change pretty quickly. 5 years ago Ross was a completely different school (as was Dominica) and so was AUC/AUA/SABA/Trinity, etc etc etc. Most often graduates from 10+ years ago really dont have a lot to offer because they dont understand or even know what is happening now.

Program directors from US residency programs who look at IMGs would be incredibly useful for their insight, but I dont think there are many here.

There are some huge/major changes coming for the Caribbean schools in the next 5-10 years. The super negative posters usually dont even know or understand what is happening or what is to come.

 

[deleted480308]

OK, so you're the guy who wants to "warn" everybody not to go to the Caribbean so the schools can eventually shut down since nobody will be attending because you said not to go to the Caribbean. My argument then would be, 900 people should immediately apply to SGU because there are apparently 900 spots (as of 2018) up for grabs.

For this argument, I'm not using division, I'm using nice, round, whole numbers.

>5800 currently enrolled MD students
Matched 900

If those odds are appealing to you, I wish you luck

 

[JohnWood15]

There is some valuable info to be gained from talking to graduates for sure, but I would argue that they would only be able to provide insight into their specific school and only for a relatively short amount of time after they graduated (the islands and schools change pretty quickly. 5 years ago Ross was a completely different school (as was Dominica) and so was AUC/AUA/SABA/Trinity, etc etc etc. Most often graduates from 10+ years ago really dont have a lot to offer because they dont understand or even know what is happening now.

Program directors from US residency programs who look at IMGs would be incredibly useful for their insight, but I dont think there are many here.

There are some huge/major changes coming for the Caribbean schools in the next 5-10 years. The super negative posters usually dont even know or understand what is happening or what is to come.

Dominica is apparently bye bye. I don't know how the accreditation process works but Ross is a "Caribbean" school in the US right now. I have a feeling that Ross will relocate to another island. I spoke to a college professor/pre-med adviser who toured Dominica recently and the island really is non-functional...for the time being at least. That's something to keep an eye on and that's actually a really big deal. Quite frankly, I have no idea how Ross is even allowed to hold classes in Tennessee.

Regarding US program directors, again, this comes back to the regional argument I was making. We can talk to a PD from Pennsylvania who would be extremely biased toward ANY Caribbean applicant but drive 500 miles east and it's a different story where you would have a PD begging an SGU grad to fill up a spot in their community program. Not saying that SGU grads or Caribbean grads take all of the undesirable community programs but that is still a residency and the argument here is that the Caribbean is somehow not a valid option to become a physician.

I don't know a whole lot about the coming changes but I do know that in 2023, if you're at some no-name school, you are SOL. But like I said, I only think there are 2-3 solid choices in the Caribbean and if you are at one of those schools, those changes need not apply to you.

My argument here is encourage, not discourage. I think it's common knowledge that you should not attempt medical school with a 2.0 GPA. But I am not talking about that group and I am not talking about any school that would accept someone with those types of stats. I'm talking about the group that has respectable stats and perhaps even a very solid scientific foundation. A science GPA of 3.0 or greater is technically not bad; it's not acceptable by US med school standards but since when is getting a B in organic chemistry a bad thing? When I was in school, there were people getting in the teens on some of those exams lol.

I bet most people here don't know that the average GPA to enter medical school in 1980 was a 3.0. Look it up. I guess the doctors that are treating us today are complete screw up's right? Wait, why on earth would someone have gone to SGU in 1978 if they could get into the US with a 3.0 GPA lol? The process really does make your head spin but hey SGU graduated all of that class from 1978 apparently.

 

[JohnWood15]

>5800 currently enrolled MD students
Matched 900

If those odds are appealing to you, I wish you luck

Medical school is four years boss. Also, SGU has 5,6,and 7 year programs so that "5800" doesn't really mean much to anybody that is currently attending. You're better off substituting "Ham and Cheese" for "5800;" they essentially mean the same thing in your example. All that 5800 means to any student there is to be above the 3.0 mark before they head off the island. If you are below that, I highly doubt you would even clear STEP 1. I don't even think SGU or any school will let you off the island if your grades are that low. Now if you are arguing that someone with low basic science scores should be allowed to become an MD, well then that's unreasonable. The idea is you go to these schools and work your rear end off. If you don't, then that's honestly your problem.

This is what I mean by providing vague information. Look how you explained it and look how I explained it. Even then, I still can't predict who will succeed down there.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I usually don't discourage anyone from taking the Caribbean route if that's the only chance they have left at becoming a doctor, but I make sure they know what they're getting themselves into. That's a very bumpy ride. Attrition rate at any Caribbean medical school will always be high, and when it comes to residency if they make it through, it will be super hard to get into competitive specialties. Other than that, as long they understand and are comfortable with those odds, I say game on.

Last year, I most likely would've gone to SGU myself if I didn't get into a US DO program. My GPAs are great (cumulative and sGPA 3.7+), but the MCAT kept kicking my a**, and after 5 tries (18, 487, 492, 500, 499) I thought I had messed up my chances at ever getting into a US program. And I'm from a Caribbean island myself (Haiti), I have only lived in the US for 7 years, so I was ready to fly back to another Caribbean island. What did I have to lose? Lol. Anyway, my advice to anybody, you do whatever the hell it takes to achieve your dream, and if you still fail, at least you tried and won't live the rest of your life wondering what would have happened if you did.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[deleted480308]

Medical school is four years boss. Also, SGU has 5,6,and 7 year programs so that "5800" doesn't really mean much to anybody that is currently attending. You're better off substituting "Ham and Cheese" for "5800;" they essentially mean the same thing in your example. All that 5800 means to any student there is to be above the 3.0 mark before they head off the island. If you are below that, I highly doubt you would even clear STEP 1. I don't even think SGU or any school will let you off the island if your grades are that low. Now if you are arguing that someone with low basic science scores should be allowed to become an MD, well then that's unreasonable. The idea is you go to these schools and work your rear end off. If you don't, then that's honestly your problem.

This is what I mean by providing vague information. Look how you explained it and look how I explained it. Even then, I still can't predict who will succeed down there.

Enjoy the island, you clearly have made up your mind

 

[Goro]

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

This directly from a very wise attending, gyngyn:

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib threshing machine (like Skip Intro or mikkus) into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

Million $ Mistake

Medical School at SGU

"Why didn't I Match?"

And what's that, you ask? How dare I, a mere Adcom at a DO school comment on this? well, one doesn't need to be a chicken to comment on broken eggs. And, I can read NRMP data, and also the Program Director's survey. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

Nationwide, 65% of PDs will seldom or never rank or interview IMGs.

 

[JohnWood15]

Nationwide, 65% of PDs will seldom or never rank or interview IMGs.

I think the misinformation with your post is that you are assuming Caribbean medical third year's are applying haphazardly all across the country lol.

Do you think these programs are that stupid to advise their students to apply to schools that they knowingly have no chance getting looked at?

It doesn't work like that. This is why I had already brought up this whole idea of regionalism and IMG's.

Again, 900 graduates from SGU are going to be treating patients starting in just a few weeks. I guess they must have applied to the 35%?

 

[Goro]

I think the misinformation with your post is that you are assuming Caribbean medical third year's are applying haphazardly all across the country lol.

Do you think these programs are that stupid to advise their students to apply to schools that they knowingly have no chance getting looked at?

It doesn't work like that. This is why I had already brought up this whole idea of regionalism and IMG's.

Again, 900 graduates from SGU are going to be treating patients starting in just a few weeks. I guess they must have applied to the 35%?

Did CARS keep you out of MD and DO schools?

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

I am a current student who just finished basic sciences at one of the most popular Caribbean schools...,.,,please listen carefully to the advice given here. A lot of what they are bringing up is hard to imagine as someone has not been through it. It has only become apparent to me as I have gotten further along in the process. These schools are run as a business more than anything else. They could really care less whether or or not you suceed, so each term they basically just throw everyone at the wall and those who stick move on and those who don’t either get held back or are kicked out all together. As someone with presumably a college degree, you deserve better than to have a dishonest administration gamble with your future in this way. Also, your step 1 score at the end of your second year can literally end your career instantly if you fail or just barely pass. There are just so many obstacles with this route and every time you get past one, another one waits for you. This is likely why the success rate for Caribbean students (matriculants-matched residents) is so low. I have kept a close watch on the attrition rate at my particular school, and admittedly it does seem to be somewhat exaggerated on this forum. I would estimate somewhere between 10-20% of people who started did not make it off the island. That being said we still need to get past the board exams and match and many of us will not be successful in that regard. Knowing what I know now, I would have never gone down this route and I hope you do not either.

 

[JohnWood15]

Did CARS keep you out of MD and DO schools?

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

Let's try to keep it professional...man to man. I'm not trying to get you to accept my point-of-view, I'm trying to get you to explain why a prospective student with reasonable stats can't succeed in the Caribbean when others are clearly succeeding. Some of the posting on this forum really has no answer for that.

You keep saying "obstacles" but you do realize that some people will put some ketchup on said obstacles and eat them if that means getting to the MD. That's what I think you are failing to see. I'll give most of the pre-med's here the benefit of the doubt and say that they are not wimps who plan on shying away from a challenge; after all, medical school is supposed to be a challenge. And no, MD admissions is not necessarily an obstacle that can easily be overcome if that's what you were about to say. I don't know about you but I don't really know many people who did more than two cycles of US MD admissions without going DO, Carib, or somewhere else in healthcare. I know you guys keep talking about applying till you get in but do you have any data on how many students are applying for three or more cycles? I really don't get what your advice is but I'm all ears.

So again, explain why 900 students graduated SGU last week? Are they unicorns? The people demand to know lol.

 

[mcat_taker]

Let's try to keep it professional...man to man. I'm not trying to get you to accept my point-of-view, I'm trying to get you to explain why a prospective student with reasonable stats can't succeed in the Caribbean when others are clearly succeeding. Some of the posting on this forum really has no answer for that.

You keep saying "obstacles" but you do realize that some people will put some ketchup on said obstacles and eat them if that means getting to the MD. That's what I think you are failing to see. I'll give most of the pre-med's here the benefit of the doubt and say that they are not wimps who plan on shying away from a challenge; after all, medical school is supposed to be a challenge. And no, MD admissions is not necessarily an obstacle that can easily be overcome if that's what you were about to say. I don't know about you but I don't really know many people who did more than two cycles of US MD admissions without going DO, Carib, or somewhere else in healthcare. I know you guys keep talking about applying till you get in but do you have any data on how many students are applying for three or more cycles? I really don't get what your advice is but I'm all ears.

So again, explain why 900 students graduated SGU last week? Are they unicorns? The people demand to know lol.

You've clearly made up your mind. What are your stats? There are obviously successful students at a dozen carib schools. But there are a lot of unsuccessful students too. You don't see that number.

 

[JohnWood15]

I am a current student who just finished basic sciences at one of the most popular Caribbean schools...,.,,please listen carefully to the advice given here. A lot of what they are bringing up is hard to imagine as someone has not been through it. It has only become apparent to me as I have gotten further along in the process. These schools are run as a business more than anything else. They could really care less whether or or not you suceed, so each term they basically just throw everyone at the wall and those who stick move on and those who don’t either get held back or are kicked out all together. As someone with presumably a college degree, you deserve better than to have a dishonest administration gamble with your future in this way. Also, your step 1 score at the end of your second year can literally end your career instantly if you fail or just barely pass. There are just so many obstacles with this route and every time you get past one, another one waits for you. This is likely why the success rate for Caribbean students (matriculants-matched residents) is so low. I have kept a close watch on the attrition rate at my particular school, and admittedly it does seem to be somewhat exaggerated on this forum. I would estimate somewhere between 10-20% of people who started did not make it off the island. That being said we still need to get past the board exams and match and many of us will not be successful in that regard. Knowing what I know now, I would have never gone down this route and I hope you do not either.

The problem with posts like this is we don't know who you are. Right? What school are you from? I'm talking about LEGITIMATE schools; specifically SGU. This is your argument and I will counter with the fact that SGU graduated 900 MD's last week. This is not about one person's journey not going according to their plans and then automatically assuming that all others will meet the same fate.

Look at the SGU website, there is a section on their site that is hidden but is required to be posted by the US DOE regarding program completion. It says 66% of their students who used Title IV completed the program "on-time." Those are numbers that don't lie; they are not fabricated. There's some risk attached to that of course but 66% is not 50% and it's not 20%. Again, with decent stats, I don't see why most of the stronger students cannot be in that 66% range. I mean you can always come up with another argument and say that only 100 people used Title IV but again, I don't think that's accurate.

You guys really do your best to make the Caribbean out to be this unconquerable monster but I'm not too sure that's really how it is. I'd like to ask those...900 SGU graduates.

 

[deleted480308]

The problem with posts like this is we don't know who you are. Right? What school are you from? I'm talking about LEGITIMATE schools; specifically SGU. This is your argument and I will counter with the fact that SGU graduated 900 MD's last week. This is not about one person's journey not going according to their plans and then automatically assuming that all others will meet the same fate.

Look at the SGU website, there is a section on their site that is hidden but is required to be posted by the US DOE regarding program completion. It says 66% of their students who used Title IV completed the program "on-time." Those are numbers that don't lie; they are not fabricated. There's some risk attached to that of course but 66% is not 50% and it's not 20%. Again, with decent stats, I don't see why most of the stronger students cannot be in that 66% range. I mean you can always come up with another argument and say that only 100 people used Title IV but again, I don't think that's accurate.

You guys really do your best to make the Caribbean out to be this unconquerable monster but I'm not too sure that's really how it is. I'd like to ask those...900 SGU graduates.

66% finishing on time is atrocious.....and that's just getting a degree, that doesn't even mean they got a residency. That's nothing to be excited about

 

[JohnWood15]

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

This directly from a very wise attending, gyngyn:

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib threshing machine (like Skip Intro or mikkus) into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

And what's that, you ask? How dare I, a mere Adcom at a DO school comment on this? well, one doesn't need to be a chicken to comment on broken eggs. And, I can read NRMP data, and also the Program Director's survey.

Nationwide, 65% of PDs will seldom or never rank or interview IMGs.

I'm sorry, I actually read this whole thing and I want to respond to the whole thing but not tonight because I'm tired. Let's do this..if you want...

I will argue every single point you bring up in your argument and we can break this down because your argument is one-sided.

Also, I must remind you that I never said anything about "all" Caribbean schools. I'm talking about SGU and MAYBE Ross but Ross has it's own problems right now.

And believe me I do respect that you encourage prospective students to apply to US programs FIRST. I won't argue with that. I will say that not all admissions departments however are as open-minded as you are making them out to be. Some of them will slam the door flat on your face. That's something you are not bringing up and another point we can argue at some time.

I'm all about transparency and I'm saying SGU is not a dead-end for someone who knows what they are doing. I think the 900 MD's that graduated just last week knew what they were doing. 900 is a big number, that's why it's a relevant issue that warrants some clarification.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

The problem with posts like this is we don't know who you are. Right? What school are you from? I'm talking about LEGITIMATE schools; specifically SGU. This is your argument and I will counter with the fact that SGU graduated 900 MD's last week. This is not about one person's journey not going according to their plans and then automatically assuming that all others will meet the same fate.

Look at the SGU website, there is a section on their site that is hidden but is required to be posted by the US DOE regarding program completion. It says 66% of their students who used Title IV completed the program "on-time." Those are numbers that don't lie; they are not fabricated. There's some risk attached to that of course but 66% is not 50% and it's not 20%. Again, with decent stats, I don't see why most of the stronger students cannot be in that 66% range. I mean you can always come up with another argument and say that only 100 people used Title IV but again, I don't think that's accurate.

You guys really do your best to make the Caribbean out to be this unconquerable monster but I'm not too sure that's really how it is. I'd like to ask those...900 SGU graduates.

I go to SGU. Sure that 900 figure doesn’t sound too bad by itself, but it’s not too good when you consider that the school takes in somewhere between 1400-1500 students per year. And that doesn’t even count those who are in charter foundations or some other preliminary program. 66% finish on time......that sounds about right. Now factor in how many of those who finish on time pass the steps and then match. As someone who loves gambling, I can say that you would have better odds of making money in the long run taking that tuition money to Vegas. Not trying to be mean, but seriously think about what is at stake with this path.

 

[JohnWood15]

66% finishing on time is atrocious.....and that's just getting a degree, that doesn't even mean they got a residency. That's nothing to be excited about

Look man, I respect all opinions but I don't think you're understanding what I am saying. Yeah, 66% is not a good number. Nobody wants to accept 66% of anything, we all want more but if you really look at that number, that's 66% vs. 0% if you are constantly getting rejected by US programs. That's the risk students who apply to SGU are willing to take to become doctors and you know what? I don't blame them. That might not be a risk you are willing to take but why should someone listen to you? You're not giving them an MD right?

I'll admit, I'm not from SGU. I only have superficial information like all of you but none of the information they provide suggests that a tiny percentage of their students succeed. That may be true for a smaller school but that's not what we are talking about. SGU admissions is stating that >85 percent of all students that enter the match, match and that is for the first year. I would imagine that number would be higher in the second year.

So instead of focusing on those who don't succeed at SGU, let's try and focus on those who do. And please don't say those who succeed are too smart or something like that.

 

[mcat_taker]

The problem with posts like this is we don't know who you are. Right? What school are you from? I'm talking about LEGITIMATE schools; specifically SGU. This is your argument and I will counter with the fact that SGU graduated 900 MD's last week. This is not about one person's journey not going according to their plans and then automatically assuming that all others will meet the same fate.

Look at the SGU website, there is a section on their site that is hidden but is required to be posted by the US DOE regarding program completion. It says 66% of their students who used Title IV completed the program "on-time." Those are numbers that don't lie; they are not fabricated. There's some risk attached to that of course but 66% is not 50% and it's not 20%. Again, with decent stats, I don't see why most of the stronger students cannot be in that 66% range. I mean you can always come up with another argument and say that only 100 people used Title IV but again, I don't think that's accurate.

You guys really do your best to make the Caribbean out to be this unconquerable monster but I'm not too sure that's really how it is. I'd like to ask those...900 SGU graduates.

Whenever anyone says they go to one of the more popular schools they usually mean the big 3. So, yes she probably went to one of your LEGITIMATE schools. You literally are not listening to a word she just said and think your info is better than hers. She's still there, finished basic sciences successfully, but warning you about the obstacles in place as a current student. She's not some drop out bitter about failing out.

 

[JohnWood15]

I go to SGU. Sure that 900 figure doesn’t sound too bad by itself, but it’s not too good when you consider that the school takes in somewhere between 1400-1500 students per year. And that doesn’t even count those who are in charter foundations or some other preliminary program. 66% finish on time......that sounds about right. Now factor in how many of those who finish on time pass the steps and then match. As someone who loves gambling, I can say that you would have better odds of making money in the long run taking that tuition money to Vegas. Not trying to be mean, but seriously think about what is at stake with this path.

You just finished basic sciences? Do you think it's fair to pass judgment at this phase of your journey? I would think most students would have some degree of stress until they complete STEP2 CK.

If you get 240 on STEP1, I don't think you'll be saying anything negative about SGU.

 

[deleted480308]

Look man, I respect all opinions but I don't think you're understanding what I am saying. Yeah, 66% is not a good number. Nobody wants to accept 66% of anything, we all want more but if you really look at that number, that's 66% vs. 0% if you are constantly getting rejected by US programs. That's the risk students who apply to SGU are willing to take to become doctors and you know what? I don't blame them. That might not be a risk you are willing to take but why should someone listen to you? You're not giving them an MD right?

I'll admit, I'm not from SGU. I only have superficial information like all of you but none of the information they provide suggests that a tiny percentage of their students succeed. That may be true for a smaller school but that's not what we are talking about. SGU admissions is stating that >85 percent of all students that enter the match, match and that is for the first year. I would imagine that number would be higher in the second year.

So instead of focusing on those who don't succeed at SGU, let's try and focus on those who do. And please don't say those who succeed are too smart or something like that.

like yin and yang, I shall continue to refer to the risk......you refer to whatever you want

 

[mcat_taker]

You just finished basic sciences? Do you think it's fair to pass judgment at this phase of your journey? I would think most students would have some degree of stress until they complete STEP2 CK.

If you get 240 on STEP1, I don't think you'll be saying anything negative about SGU.

Dude you are like every other premed that comes on here being like I'll just get a 260 on step 1 and kill it and make up for being an IMG. It is not that easy to score high just because you want to. A 240+ is a great score. Some of the best and brightest in my class scored 240+. You are literally taking a test that every other med student takes and they are all smart. It is a lot easier to do well on the MCAT because half the people taking it have no business taking it to begin with. You can't even sit for step 1 without making it through 2 years of med school you are competing against a much stronger pool.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

You just finished basic sciences? Do you think it's fair to pass judgment at this phase of your journey? I would think most students would have some degree of stress until they complete STEP2 CK.

If you get 240 on STEP1, I don't think you'll be saying anything negative about SGU.

Yeah actually I do think it is fair because I have seen first hand the kind of things this school does to try to derail people’s careers. Many of my classmates have been forced to drop out by the administration, and their fate is not one that I would wish on my worst enemy. Regardless of what I get on the step in a few weeks, I can be confident that SGU will not have played a large role in my performance. Most of the professors are terrible and can hardly speak English in an understandable manner. You have to teach yourself literally everything and in the last term, the lectures do not even remotely correlate to what you will see on exams. Feel free to PM me if like to know more about this school and the reality of what living in the cesspool known as Grenada is really like.

 

[JohnWood15]

like yin and yang, I shall continue to refer to the risk......you refer to whatever you want

Touché

 

[Domperidone]

I was reading through these threads and well, I have some questions...

1. How many of you commenting on the Caribbean medical school path REALLY have some type of knowledge about the admissions process, the medical education itself, and then the match rate at each of these schools as they exist TODAY? Not last year, not a decade ago, not through a friend or even "someone you know"...but personal intimate knowledge of these programs as they exist today. And then how many of you admittedly actually know nothing about any of those things and still decide to put in your .02 anyway knowing full well you have no idea what you are talking about?

2. What exactly is the underlying message here regarding Caribbean medical schools? I don't understand if people are actually encouraging people to succeed, if people are discouraging people from succeeding, or if people are simply spewing their bias regardless of whether a prospective students succeeds or does not succeed in becoming a physician. We have people posting here claiming to be students, people claiming to be graduates, and even a few "program directors" who appear to not be fans of Caribbean medical students oddly giving their input to prospective Caribbean medical students but I just can't seem to figure out if we are encouraging others to succeed or just injecting our own personal biases into the legitimate career aspirations of people we know nothing about, people who might be very different than us, and people whom we will probably never see in our life. I mean if someone wants to go to the Caribbean to become a physician, do you feel better about yourself discouraging them not to try even though you know nothing about them, their motivation, and then knowing that there is absolutely no way to predict their ultimate outcome?

A lot of the information on this part of SDN is very vague at best and not convincing. All I have found are personal opinions and data that can only infer a possible outcome at best. There is absolutely zero advice or statistical data on this forum that can predict anyone's outcome with any type of absoluteness. We all know people match from the Caribbean and, as far as I can tell, that really has not changed drastically considering some people have posted that all Caribbean Schools should have been closed by today. So if people do succeed down this route --and I'm talking about the most legitimate two or three schools, what is the real message you guys are trying to send to someone, who you do not know, who asks "should I go to the Caribbean?"

Is the answer "are you able to write a check?" or "do you want to be bankrupt with no chance of practicing medicine." really the best you can do? Is that 100% accurate? If not, then that's not real advice to be honest.

St. George's University recently graduated 900 or so MD's a few days ago. I'm just curious how some of you guys come up with an explanation for that. You obviously don't know those 900 graduates on a personal level let alone know anything about their stats or the PD's that gave them the green light so who's to say some prospective student cannot one day be in that cohort if some cohort of Caribbean medical students is obviously succeeding?

I'm confused over what your objective is with this thread.

Are you a premed looking for specific advice? Or reinforcement that you're making the right choice? Is there something wrong with the forum you're trying to rectify?

Are you a student at a Carib school trying to "dispel" some misperceptions?

Like why post if you already have set opinions? Is it to vent? Rather than framing them as qs to stir the pot, you could just say this is how I feel. Statement X, Y, Z observations. Otherwise, your qs are a bit accusatory questions in tone. It's a bit uncomfortable to read.

It's also unlikely you'll be able to change minds over an internet forum. Providing very strong reactions or responses only pushes them away further. You don't really get them on your side that way.

 

[JohnWood15]

Yeah actually I do think it is fair because I have seen first hand the kind of things this school does to try to derail people’s careers. Many of my classmates have been forced to drop out by the administration, and their fate is not one that I would wish on my worst enemy. Regardless of what I get on the step in a few weeks, I can be confident that SGU will not have played a large role in my performance. Most of the professors are terrible and can hardly speak English in an understandable manner. You have to teach yourself literally everything and in the last term, the lectures do not even remotely correlate to what you will see on exams. Feel free to PM me if like to know more about this school and the reality of what living in the cesspool known as Grenada is really like.

Yeah I might PM you at some point.

Let me ask you this though, what are the odds you would have gotten into a US program? You obviously chose SGU for some reason right? I don't think you would go to SGU thinking that 100% of the students would pass. You're done with basic sciences, don't you think you're in good shape? Look at that blog that was linked above with that SGU student who was dismissed. That's not you right? Isn't that a good thing? So now study for STEP1 and I highly doubt if you made it off the island that you are in a position to fail that exam. So if you pass it, aren't things still going in a positive direction? Then, STEP 2 CS comes, STEP2 CK and interviews season and before you know it, you'll probably be one of those 900. I would totally understand if you were frustrated at this stage but nobody is saying the Caribbean is easy. I would even say you are going so far as to putting your life on pause for at least a few years.

 

[JohnWood15]

I'm confused over what your objective is with this thread.

Are you a premed looking for specific advice? Or reinforcement that you're making the right choice? Is there something wrong with the forum you're trying to rectify?

Are you a student at a Carib school trying to "dispel" some misperceptions?

Like why post if you already have set opinions? Is it to vent? Rather than framing them as qs to stir the pot, you could just say this is how I feel. Statement X, Y, Z observations. They're accusatory questions in tone. It's a bit uncomfortable to read.

It's also unlikely you'll be able to change minds over an internet forum. Providing very strong reactions or responses only pushes them away further. You don't really get them on your side that way.

I think the initial post was crystal clear. Don't you? Read it again. It has a two-part question attached to it.

I want to know what all the negativity is regarding the Caribbean route when you have 900 MD's graduating each year from SGU. Kinda hard to take these posts seriously when the opposite actually appears to be happening. I think it's disingenuous to call the Caribbean a dead end of sorts when you have 900 people successfully navigating that path. Risk? Sure, dead-end? I don't think so. Perhaps you can shed some light on this discussion then?

Again, not trying to change minds nor do I even care. Just looking for an explanation. Still haven't found it.

...It's a transparency issue. You're saying one thing, I see something else, and I'm pointing it out and giving others a chance to provide an explanation. This site reaches lots of people. Perhaps they are curious too.

...This thread would not come up if SGU said "2018 was a terrible year for IMG's." Instead, they're thumbing their nose at all the haters and saying things are "getting better."

 

[Domperidone]

I think the initial post was crystal clear. Don't you? Read it again. It has a two-part question attached to it.

I want to know what all the negativity is regarding the Caribbean route when you have 900 MD's graduating each year from SGU. Kinda hard to take these posts seriously when the opposite actually appears to be happening. I think it's disingenuous to call the Caribbean a dead end of sorts when you have 900 people successfully navigating that path. Risk? Sure, dead-end? I don't think so. Perhaps you can shed some light on this discussion then?

Again, not trying to change minds nor do I even care. Just looking for an explanation. Still haven't found it.

...It's a transparency issue. You're saying one thing, I see something else, and I'm pointing it out and giving others a chance to provide an explanation. This site reaches lots of people. Perhaps they are curious too.

Then why not just say this is how I feel?

It just feels like you're wanting to push everyone away at this point rather than draw them into a discussion.

Do you want help or just agreement with the hypotheses you've already made?

Are you a pre-med?

I'll be honest, I'm hesitant to help you because I can't tell if you actually want or need help. I mean you could just enroll and be done with it.

I don't want to feel to be made to feel like crap if you're going to be insulting to me after either.

It's the internet but many med students (who should be studying), residents and faculty are taking the time out to answer and help. Even if it doesn't seem that way. If they wanted to be selfish they wouldn't be here.

Are you wanting advice or just someone to confirm what yourself already believe to be true? If it's advice, dial it down a notch. It's frightening to try to respond to you and I don't think that's your intent.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Yeah I might PM you at some point.

Let me ask you this though, what are the odds you would have gotten into a US program? You obviously chose SGU for some reason right? I don't think you would go to SGU thinking that 100% of the students would pass. You're done with basic sciences, don't you think you're in good shape? Look at that blog that was linked above with that SGU student who was dismissed. That's not you right? Isn't that a good thing? So now study for STEP1 and I highly doubt if you made it off the island that you are in a position to fail that exam. So if you pass it, aren't things still going in a positive direction? Then, STEP 2 CS comes, STEP2 CK and interviews season and before you know it, you'll probably be one of those 900. I would totally understand if you were frustrated at this stage but nobody is saying the Caribbean is easy. I would even say you are going so far as to putting your life on pause for at least a few years.

I came to this school for one reason and one reason only. I didn’t get into a US program the first time I applied and did not want to spend an additional year applying for what may have likely been the same outcome. I came here out of desperation, not because I ever had any intention of living in a third world country for two years. And just because things may be going decently for me at this particular moment in time is fairly irrevlevant. There are still a lot of things that can go wrong between now and applying for the match that are hard to describe unless you are a Caribbean medical student. Getting through the basic sciences is not easy at one of these places, and the challenges of island life just adds to it. Yeah your prognosis may be a little bit better once you get off the island, but you have yet to start basic sciences. I cannot advise in good faith that someone take the same reckless gamble that I did two years ago by coming here. The people I know who had academic difficulties along the way were all quite smart and diligent IMO so it is hard to predict who will thrive and who won’t in this environment. Something else you should know. Academic standards at this school are very high and at times seem a bit unreasonable. You have 4 classes each term and you must get at least 70% in each class AND a 75% overall average in each term to get promoted to the next semester. Exams are not curved and if at any point you fail to meet one of these benchmarks you are totally screwed. No matter how motivated and hard you work, it is not to difficult to fail considering how many opportunities there are to screw up.

 

[JohnWood15]

Then why not just say this is how I feel?

It just feels like you're wanting push everyone away at this point rather than draw them into a discussion.

Do you want help or just agreement with the hypotheses you've already made?

Are you a pre-med?

I'll be honest, I'm hesitant to help you because I can't tell if you actually want it. I don't want to feel to be made to feel like crap if you're going to be insulting to me after either. It's the internet but many students, residents and faculty are taking the time out to answer and help. Even if it doesn't seem that way. If they wanted to be selfish they wouldn't be here.

Are you wanting advice or just someone to confirm what yourself already believe to be true?

I don't think I'm pushing anybody away. I think the clarification I am asking for can be beneficial for a lot of people who visit this site and can set the record straight with going to the Caribbean and going to SGU if that should be your only option.

It's very hard to take anyone seriously when you see post after post stating "get your checkbook out" "do you have a pulse" "you will fail" etc. and then seeing 900 students match into a residency knowing full well that could be any one on this forum myself included. That's just SGU, Ross has a cohort, and so do the other programs. I'm just choosing to use SGU as an example since their data suggests more of their students are successful.

I was waiting for a few of the other frequent Caribbean posters to chime in but perhaps they might do so tomorrow.

I'm not looking at advice. I know the risks associated with attending a Caribbean school. I'm looking for an explanation as to why 900 students graduated from SGU last week. Posts from five years ago are saying no IMG would match in 2017 or 2018. What happened? Where did that argument go wrong? If you can help me to understand that, I'd be interested because I don't think inaccurate advice is fair to anybody who comes to this site for guidance.

 

[JohnWood15]

I promise this is my last post for tonight because my eyes are closing lol but I want to answer this. My responses are in red. Sorry if it's confusing.

I came to this school for one reason and one reason only. I didn’t get into a US program the first time I applied and did not want to spend an additional year applying for what may have likely been the same outcome. I think that's what a lot of students do. I don't blame you and I think most people do not try for multiple cycles. I came here out of desperation, not because I ever had any intention of living in a third world country Grenada is absolutely NOT a third-world country. I can show you a "third-world" country, it would not be able to sustain a campus like SGU... for two years. And just because things may be going decently for me at this particular moment in time is fairly irrevlevant. It is NOT irrelevant but exactly what I am talking about, I'm glad you actually brought that up. You're the type of student I'm actually talking about! There are still a lot of things that can go wrong but it looks like you are taking care of those things before they can go wrong right? between now and applying for the match that are hard to describe unless you are a Caribbean medical student. Getting through the basic sciences is not easy at one of these places, and the challenges of island life just adds to it. Yeah your prognosis may be a little bit better once you get off the island, but you have yet to start basic sciences. I cannot advise in good faith that someone take the same reckless gamble that I did two years ago by coming here. The people I know who had academic difficulties along the way were all quite smart and diligent IMO so it is hard to predict who will thrive and who won’t in this environment. Something else you should know. Academic standards at this school are very high and at times seem a bit unreasonable. You have 4 classes each term and you must get at least 70% in each class AND a 75% overall average in each term to get promoted to the next semester. Exams are not curved and if at any point you fail to meet one of these benchmarks you are totally screwed. No matter how motivated and hard you work, it is not to difficult to fail considering how many opportunities there are to screw up. This is actually how it is at every single one of those schools TBH. In many ways, the SGU curriculum looks much better on paper. AUA, Ross, and others have to pass a hellish NBME comp to actually get off the island. My understanding is that you guys don't. But this all comes back to what I had said earlier that you come down hear to work your butt off. You mentally prepare yourself to put your life on pause for two years or maybe four till the job is done. You guys also have DES, should you need it, which is non-existent at any other school.

 

[Domperidone]

I don't think I'm pushing anybody away. I think the clarification I am asking for can be beneficial for a lot of people who visit this site and can set the record straight with going to the Caribbean and going to SGU if that should be your only option.

It's very hard to take anyone seriously when you see post after post stating "get your checkbook out" "do you have a pulse" "you will fail" etc. and then seeing 900 students match into a residency knowing full well that could be any one on this forum myself included. That's just SGU, Ross has a cohort, and so do the other programs. I'm just choosing to use SGU as an example since their data suggests more of their students are successful.

I was waiting for a few of the other frequent Caribbean posters to chime in but perhaps they might do so tomorrow.

I'm not looking at advice. I know the risks associated with attending a Caribbean school. I'm looking for an explanation as to why 900 students graduated from SGU last week. Posts from five years ago are saying no IMG would match in 2017 or 2018. What happened? Where did that argument go wrong? If you can help me to understand that, I'd be interested because I don't think inaccurate advice is fair to anybody who comes to this site for guidance.

Which Carib posters are you after?
Maybe tag them. (So then you don't have responders you feel are unhelpful to you responding). Is it gyngyn, hmania or aprogdirector you're waiting for?

To clarify for me as to what you're asking. Bear with me. I've a very short attention span.

You feel that 900 students from SGU matching is a success, and to say otherwise is incorrect. Or am I misinterpreting? What explanation are you after in this case? One that confirms that your thoughts are correct, and you're trying to debunk what you think is myth.

Or are you genuinely mystified at how this number could have occurred despite some strong opinions or past evidence?

 

[JohnWood15]

Which Carib posters are you after?
Maybe tag them. (So then you don't have responders you feel are unhelpful to you responding). Is it gyngyn, hmania or aprogdirector you're waiting for?

To clarify for me as to what you're asking. Bear with me. I've a very short attention span.

You feel that 900 students from SGU matching is a success, and to say otherwise is incorrect? or am I misinterpreting? What explanation are you after in this case? One that confirms that your thoughts are correct? and you're trying to debunk what you think is myth. Or are you genuinely mystified at how this number could have occurred despite some strong opinions or past evidence?

Trying to sleep but OK, I'll answer you and maybe we can continue this another day...

Yeah, I was waiting for the poster skipintro, gyngyn, aprogdirector, bedevilledben, and argus. Some of them make some good points here and there and I've taken note of those points but the problem I have is that 900 students is a serious number. If you are going to come on this forum and tell someone that the Caribbean MD is a dead-end or note even legitimate, you better come up with a really good explanation as to why that is when on the other end, 900 graduates are getting pumped out.

Yes, for a for-profit offshore medical program, 900 graduates is a success in my book because a strong student should be able to obtain one of those positions with some effort. Again, weak students aside, I'm focusing on a target student with a 3.3-3.5 CGPA and SGPA with at least a 500 MCAT or whatever is 50th percentile these days. I think that student should statistically be in one of those 900 positions after four years. That's just an estimate; there are many factors involved. Some of those students might be horrendous test takers and there may be others who test rather well and that can ultimately decide which student succeeds and which students fails out. Telling that student however to find another career because they cannot gain admission to a US program is incorrect advice and that is the basis of my argument. There is no basis for that advice.

The tone on this site should start shifting to neutrality with a school that can produce 900 MD's. That really is no joke. That's a legitimate second-chance. Play with those numbers for yourself. Maybe your definition of second-chance differs from mine but if SGU is offering a 66% chance or even greater since that is 66% of only one demographic, I would jump on that if US schools were closing all doors. 400K or so is another topic of discussion but you're not going to make money unless you spend some money.

 

[Domperidone]

Trying to sleep but OK, I'll answer you and maybe we can continue this another day...

Yeah, I was waiting for the poster skipintro, gyngyn, aprogdirector, bedevilledben, and argus. Some of them make some good points here and there and I've taken note of those points but the problem I have is that 900 students is a serious number. If you are going to come on this forum and tell someone that the Caribbean MD is a dead-end or note even legitimate, you better come up with a really good explanation as to why that is when on the other end, 900 graduates are getting pumped out.

Yes, for a for-profit offshore medical program, 900 graduates is a success in my book because a strong student should be able to obtain one of those positions with some effort. Again, weak students aside, I'm focusing on a target student with a 3.3-3.5 CGPA and SGPA with at least a 500 MCAT or whatever is 50th percentile these days. I think that student should statistically be in one of those 900 positions after four years. That's just an estimate; there are many factors involved. Some of those students might be horrendous test takers and there may be others who test rather well and that can ultimately decide which student succeeds and which students fails out. Telling that student however to find another career because they cannot gain admission to a US program is incorrect advice and that is the basis of my argument. There is no basis for that advice.

The tone on this site should start shifting to neutrality with a school that can produce 900 MD's. That really is no joke. That's a legitimate second-chance. Play with those numbers for yourself. Maybe your definition of second-chance differs from mine but if SGU is offering a 66% chance or even greater since that is 66% of only one demographic, I would jump on that if US schools were closing all doors. 400K or so is another topic of discussion but you're not going to make money unless you spend some money.

I think this is what you should have opened your thread with.

I still don't see the question in here...
I can see that you're waiting to refute arguments.

And if only we could control the flow of thoughts on an internet forum or any fora/forums.

Let me help you out, so we can get to what you're wanting quicker - @gyngyn @Skip Intro @the argus @aProgDirector and @bedevilled ben

Goro's already quoted Gyngyn.
I nearly forgot gonnif's responses to similar q's by previous posters about Carib.
Are European Med schools actually that bad for residency?
Carribean Experiences??
Have any of your friends gone Caribbean Med?
Are Caribbean schools really THAT horrible?
Caribbean MD or CRNA ?
caribean medical school
More to your point:

I am not a big fan of Off-shore schools but by no means do I rule them out (see my standard advice below):
as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done

Another argument already discussed before in this response. I've quoted the area that again, goes to point.
Caribbean med student to derm resident.

Another argument I've heard is that people who could have gotten into a US school will be the ones who do succeed at a Caribbean school, but I don't think this is true. US schools (both MD and DO) are designed to, if you get in, get you to graduation and residency, because if they don't, then licensing bodies put them on probation or shut them down. Caribbean schools don't care if you fail or pass, so these people might still actually fail out of school or fail to match (both of which put you more or less in the same boat) if they don't have the support system of the US school. Thus, if you are the type of person who thinks they would succeed in the Caribbean, you are also likely to be the type of person who could get into a US school, so why not just go to a US school?

I hope I haven't left anything out. I spent a good amount of time typing this that I should have spent learning about kidney disease, so I hope it's clear. Anyway, these are all of the reasons why I never advise anyone to go to the Caribbean. Not because it dooms you to failure, but because it just doesn't make sense.

There's also this thread, created by a grad (which is what you were originally asking for). Caribbean Success Story. Bit older, but also by a 'real' grad, Is the Caribbean really THAT bad?. With another key point on why even if you're a strong carib student, the path still has thorns -

From the point of view of attaining residency -- try to do everything possible to get into a US MD school -- then US DO.
If you decide to go Caribbean -- please be aware that you will have very little support during your clinical years -- not much variety in terms of where you can do rotations -- and most likely will be doing primary care in a community hospital.

It's been in other threads by other carib grads, you often have little say over where you get to do your rotations or subI's. They're not always going to be at glamorous places or in time for you to attempt to match in a field you want. This doesn't just apply to carib, but all off-shore schools.
Nearly 10 years old now, but is similarly I think, what you were looking to find:
Going to carib - Have realistic expectations!.

The fact is, the majority of my classmates matched into primary care specialties. This will, if you believe statistics, most likely be your fate if you go to Ross or SGU or AUC, and even more so for the other Carib schools.

The Carib can be a second chance sure, but there's a reason why it's the harder path. If that's what you want to do, then that's what you want to do. Consider also what other responders have experienced to make them wish that you would choose an easier path for yourself, if you can help it. Again, they're all med students, grads, or faculty. It's not that you can't be successful in the carib route. But, you will have to work harder (very generally speaking) than the average AMG to get to the same outcome or have the same opportunities. That's not what everyone wants as premeds.

If you're okay with this, then that is your choice to make. It's not really your choice to decide if that's okay for other premeds for instance, they have to make what they will with the information out there too.

Now it's my turn to say I have to go to sleep, so I can work safely tomorrow

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I've posted this before:

Hopefully a "fair and balanced" review of offshore schools:

The bottom line is that Carib schools (especially Med Schools) are a mixed bag. Calling them "a scam" or "a waste" is ridiculous. Saying that they are "equivalent to US schools" is also untrue:

1. They accept people who cannot get into a US medical school. Whether you see this as "giving deserving people who messed up their GPA / can't do well on the MCAT a second chance" or "leeching tuition off of desperate students who can't get into US medical schools" depends on how you view the situation.

2. Top performers in Carib schools will do fine, and be able to get mid-competitive fields /spots. Anesthesia, EM, Rads, University IM, etc. Ortho/NS/Vascular/Derm is very unlikely even for the top performers, and usually requires years of research and/or connections.

3. Middle performers will also do fine, but often end up in FM / Community IM / peds / Psych / Neuro / Path. Nothing wrong with those fields, but those attending Carib schools should understand that their choices may be limited.

4. Those at the bottom of their class, failing a class, or worse failing a step, often have much more problems. Students retake, pass, and then think everything will be OK, and it might not be. These students might still match, but it's much harder.

4b. Everyone thinks they will be in the top 25%. Only 25% can be in the top 25%. No one can tell if that's going to be you. Remember that "top 25%" when we're talking about USMLE is compared with everyone who takes it, not just those at your school.

5. A reasonable percentage of all students starting in carib schools fail out in the first 2 years. Exactly how high that percentage is, is unclear. It clearly varies by school. Some see this as "The school takes more students than it has clinical spots for, and then fails them out to make more money". Others see it as "These schools know that some percentage of students will fail out. Rather than leave clinical spots empty, they take enough pre-clinical students so that their clinical spots are filled -- this offers the maximum number of students an opportunity to be a physician". The crux is whether the pass level is adjusted specifically to fail out people, or whether it's set at some reasonable benchmark and some people happen to fail.

The other part of this discussion usually revolves around "Well, the school takes people with very low MCAT's and then they fail out -- it's a scam and they should have a higher MCAT cutoff". Data from the LCME shows that lower MCAT scores tend to be associated with failing the USMLE. But population statistics don't tell you how any one person will do -- some people with low MCAT's do just fine. So, again, how you interpret this depends upon how you look at it.

6. Not all schools are created equal. The most established schools are SGU and Ross, and from my viewpoint the two are probably equivalent. SGU appears to be more expensive (although prices change, this may not be accurate in the future). Ross appears to take more students and appears to have a higher drop out rate, although no school publishes their drop out rate so it's hard to be certain. Ross has recently had major problems with a hurricaine severely damaging Dominica, and exactly how it is going to recover/deal with this is unclear. AUC and Saba are often included in the "top 4", AUC is on the "best/safest" (but most expensive) island (also damaged by hurricaine), and Saba is often touted as the cheapest. There are many others of varying quality -- expect higher drop out rates and worse match outcomes.

6a. If a medical school you are looking at doesn't require the MCAT, that's a very bad sign.

7. If you fail out of med school, or can't match to a residency, you really have limited options. A partial MD is of no value. An MD without a residency is also of very limited value, especially an international degree. People talk about "consulting", but I've never seen that actually happen. There are several stories of people getting jobs working for insurance companies, or state disability office, etc. These positions don't pay well, but at least they are something and might qualify for PSLF.

8. If you fail out of school, or can't find a residency because of poor performance, your loans are non-dischargable. Paying them off is very difficult. PSLF or "extreme hardship" may be able to discharge them after 10+ years. if you have a cosigner, they are on the hook just as much as you. I would not recommend that anyone go to a carib medical school if a family member / friend needs to cosign loans.

9. US med schools have increased their class size. Residency spots are also increasing slowly. So far, it hasn't been a problem. It may be that as time goes forward, that IMG's will have further trouble getting even IM and FM spots and the change might happen between the time you matriculate and graduate. But, the opposite might be true also -- spots might grow at a higher rate than students.

So: Going to a Carib school is an uphill process. You need to work harder and be better than your US colleagues to do "equally" well. Carib schools often tout their successes, and ignore the students who never make it to graduation, are only able to get a prelim spot, or not match at all. Yet, at the better carib schools, the majority of students probably succeed (again, difficult to say due to lack of transparency), mainly in the primary care fields. Advertising from these schools (on their websites) doesn't do a great job of balancing these risks and benefits. Threads on SDN tend to tout the negatives, which is probably healthy so that prospective students see the dangers involved.

Yeah, 66% is not a good number. Nobody wants to accept 66% of anything, we all want more but if you really look at that number, that's 66% vs. 0% if you are constantly getting rejected by US programs. That's the risk students who apply to SGU are willing to take to become doctors and you know what?

Assuming the 66% figure is correct (and for SGU and Ross, I expect it's about right), let's be 100% honest about the outcomes:
Don't go to SGU, 0% chance of being a doctor. Debt is unchanged.
Go to SGU:
66% chance of matching, great career as physician. All is good (ignoring that you might not get the field you fall in love with)
34% chance of not matching. Now you could be an additional 100K+ in debt, and no way to pay it off, and you can't discharge it in bankruptcy. If you had a cosigner, they are just as responsible. If they actually completed all 4 years and then can't match (worst case scenario), they could easily be 400K in debt.

That's the key issue here. If someone has 200K to blow and they want to try medical school, I think everyone here would say it's their choice. The concern is that everyone going to the carib is certain they won't be the one to fail out, and hence is certain the financial risk is reasonable.

 

[bedevilled ben]

I think this is what you should have opened your thread with.

I still don't see the question in here...
Let me help you out, so we can get to what you're wanting quicker - @gyngyn @Skip Intro @the argus @aProgDirector and @bedevilled ben

Ding Ding. I fail to see the question here. Every decision you make is dicey. None of us can predict the future. We do our best to offer advice when specific questions are asked. Outside that, we can only offer anecdotes. My experiences were good. Some others had experiences which were less-good. Your mileage will vary.

 

[Blackdogue]

I think this is what you should have opened your thread with.

I still don't see the question in here...
I can see that you're waiting to refute arguments.

And if only we could control the flow of thoughts on an internet forum or any fora/forums.

Let me help you out, so we can get to what you're wanting quicker - @gyngyn @Skip Intro @the argus @aProgDirector and @bedevilled ben

Goro's already quoted Gyngyn.
I nearly forgot gonnif's responses to similar q's by previous posters about Carib.
Are European Med schools actually that bad for residency?
Carribean Experiences??
Have any of your friends gone Caribbean Med?
Are Caribbean schools really THAT horrible?
Caribbean MD or CRNA ?
caribean medical school
More to your point:



Another argument already discussed before in this response. I've quoted the area that again, goes to point.
Caribbean med student to derm resident.


There's also this thread, created by a grad (which is what you were originally asking for). Caribbean Success Story. Bit older, but also by a 'real' grad, Is the Caribbean really THAT bad?. With another key point on why even if you're a strong carib student, the path still has thorns - It's been in other threads by other carib grads, you often have little say over where you get to do your rotations or subI's. They're not always going to be at glamorous places or in time for you to attempt to match in a field you want. This doesn't just apply to carib, but all off-shore schools.
Nearly 10 years old now, but is similarly I think, what you were looking to find:
Going to carib - Have realistic expectations!.

The Carib can be a second chance sure, but there's a reason why it's the harder path. If that's what you want to do, then that's what you want to do. Consider also what other responders have experienced to make them wish that you would choose an easier path for yourself, if you can help it. Again, they're all med students, grads, or faculty. It's not that you can't be successful in the carib route. But, you will have to work harder (very generally speaking) than the average AMG to get to the same outcome or have the same opportunities. That's not what everyone wants.

If you're okay with this, then that is your choice to make. It's not really your choice to decide if that's okay for other premeds for instance, they have to make what they will with the information out there too.

Now it's my turn to say I have to go to sleep, so I can work safely tomorrow

I'm sorry mate, but weren't you giving me advice about Australia in another forum? How could you be so knowledgeable about both subjects, are you currently living in both countries? I apologize for being paranoid, but this is the internet, after all. I could start a thread called "I'm an attending neurosurgeon in Hopkins, ask me anything", and most people would have to take my word for it.

 

[Domperidone]

I'm sorry mate, but weren't you giving me advice about Australia in another forum? How could you be so knowledgeable about both subjects, are you currently living in both countries? I apologize for being paranoid, but this is the internet, after all. I could start a thread called "I'm an attending neurosurgeon in Hopkins, ask me anything", and most people would have to take my word for it.

lol I'm not* an expert.

Notice I didn't actually offer any advice about the Carib of my own - just linked to well regarded posters to the OP to help them out before they get stuck or spiralled into one hot mess with other responders, which they nearly did.

Otherwise, I didn't really have any real desire to join this thread. But there was something genuine with what OP was after, even though their tone still freaks me out.

Aside from that, it's same blanket advice with off shore. That part is universal. You end up choosing the harder, less supported pathway. It's not impossible. IMG is.. IMG. Can't change that part no matter where you try to go. Whatever variant of it you become.

 

[Blackdogue]

lol I'm not. Notice I didn't actually offer any advice about the Carib of my own - just linked to well regarded posters to OP to help them out before they get stuck.

Or I just gave the blanket advice on off shore. That part is universal. IMG is.. IMG.

Yes, I did notice, but still had to confirm. You are, indeed, Australian, is that right?

 

[Domperidone]

Yes, I did notice, but still had to confirm. You are, indeed, Australian, is that right?

What does my very public msg history accessible to all tell you?

true, i could be lying. maybe I'm not a doctor at all. I just watch a lot of shows and read a lot of forums.

 

[Blackdogue]

What does my very public msg history accessible to all tell you?

true, i could be lying. maybe I'm not a doctor at all. I just watch a lot of shows and read a lot of forums.

Ok, sorry for that.

 

[Skip Intro]

Way too much to try to unpack on this thread. Most of it is subjective and opinion. You have to answer your assertions (whatever they are) with data.

So, for now, here's an irrefutable fact:

Roughly 1/4th of all practicing physicians in the U.S. are foreign-trained, and not all of them are "true" IMGs. This is unlikely to change, based on current trends, for the foreseeable future. And, it has certainly been meted out by the Match data over the past several cycles.

-Skip