Someone please talk me out/ into applying to Caribbean schools and stick with DO Schools

[DoctorSynthesis]

I wholeheartedly agree with you. If the residency program directors look at Caribbean graduates in a negative light, this matters carries a burden in itself.
What I referred to was the public's perceptions, which has no sway over pivotal decision making like residency placement.

Public perception is they don't know the difference and ur a doctor do or md. There is also dmd/dds and no one cares about that either.

here are the pros and cons:
Pros: you'll get an md
Cons: 50 percent chance you can't practice and you wasted 200-300 grand.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[el_duderino]

I sincerely appreciate everyone's help. I am just trying to get some concrete fact concerning Caribbean graduates vs. DO graduates.
Simply saying one is inferior to the other is not really helping my investigation.
And this is my first time applying to DO. Where did I mention that I applied 3 times?

I apologize in advance to everyone who think this post is a drag.
I tend to be overzealous in collecting information. I like to keep my options open. And finding out more about the pros and cons of Caribbean schools just happen to be one of them.

Reading comprehension fail. He was saying that Carib is only a reasonable choice if you can't get US MD or DO; as an example, he proferred the hypothetical applicant who has 3 failed cycled applying to DO.

 

[simbad8]

Why don't you:
1. apply wherever you want to/can see yourself actually going
2. go to whatever interviews you get invited to and get a scope of what the school is like
3. see where you actually get accepted to
4. base your decision on your impression of the school when you interviewed

 

[allantois]

go DO. I know a doctor who graduated from a Caribbean school and is now doing second intern year as he is not able to match anywhere.

 

[AMEHigh]

I sincerely appreciate everyone's help. I am just trying to get some concrete fact concerning Caribbean graduates vs. DO graduates.
Simply saying one is inferior to the other is not really helping my investigation.

I apologize in advance to everyone who think this post is a drag.
I tend to be overzealous in collecting information. I like to keep my options open. And finding out more about the pros and cons of Caribbean schools just happen to be one of them.

The concrete facts are that Caribbean graduates have a much harder time matching and a lot more students drop out/fail out. Someone posted the nrmp website with the statistics and you will clearly see the difference.

Medical school is already difficult enough, why put yourself at a disadvantage from the get go?

 

[Major]

The concrete facts are that Caribbean graduates have a much harder time matching and a lot more students drop out/fail out. Someone posted the nrmp website with the statistics and you will clearly see the difference.

Medical school is already difficult enough, why put yourself at a disadvantage from the get go?

This!

 

[GypsyHummus]

go DO. I know a doctor who graduated from a Caribbean school and is now doing second intern year as he is not able to match anywhere.

Same here. The chick I met was finally able to get a position somewhere out in Minnesota in psychiatry, but it took her 3 try's. She graduated college in 2005 and just now got residency!!

 

[iWillOneDay]

At that point go pa or podiatry.

PA stats are quite high.....

 

[GypsyHummus]

PA stats are quite high.....

Some schools are astronomically high. I know of two schools I called that said they won't look at u with less than a 3.7

However, there are others u can get into with DO stats.

 

[deleted407021]

PA stats are quite high.....

I have two pre-PA acquaintances that are scrambling to get EMT-B certification so they can get the 500-1000+ hours of direct patient contact they need for their PA schools applications. They keep their grades up, too. They worry about them about as much as your standard premed kid does.

 

[iWillOneDay]

I have two pre-PA acquaintances that are scrambling to get EMT-B certification so they can get the 500-1000+ hours of direct patient contact they need for their PA schools applications. They keep their grades up, too. They worry about them about as much as your standard premed kid does.

tell them to work as a scribe.

 

[deleted407021]

tell them to work as a scribe.

They do, but the hours they put in aren't quite enough for their application timelines. A summer EMT job, even just transporting or ER work will stack up more hours than scribing can offer for them right now.

 

[costales]

A nurse I know is dating a Caribbean MD who didn't match this year. He's working in "research" as a lab tech while waiting for the next round and trying to do something about his debt. It's a sad situation, but hey, it's a free country.

 

[adriano710]

I have a 3.1 gpa and 29 MCAT.
Stellar PS, stellar EC, 5 LOR (2 MD, 2 Strong Science, 1 non-science)
I am applying to these 12 DO Schools:

Lincoln Memorial University - DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine, TN(LMUDCOM)
William Carey University College of Osteopathic Medicine, MS(WCUCOM)
Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine, College of Osteopathic Medicine, CO
Pacific Northwest University of Health Sciences, College of Osteopathic Medicine, WA(PNUHSCOM)
Western University of Health Sciences/College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific - Lebanon, OR(WUHSCOM)
West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine, Admissions Office, WV(WVSOM)
Alabama College of Osteopathic Medicine, AL (ACOM)
Campbell University School of Osteopathic Medicine, NC (CUSOM)
Edward Via College of Osteopathic Medicine - Auburn, AL (EVCOM)
Georgia Campus - Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, GA (GCPCOM)
Liberty University College of Osteopathic Medicine, VA (LUCOM)
Marian University College of Osteopathic Medicine, IN(MUCOM)

Considering adding LECOM to the list once I get to shadow a DO in 2 weeks

Dude you're perfectly fine. Why would you even consider Caribbean schools? Don't worry so much about the two letters after your name.

 

[DrModern]

Dude you're perfectly fine. Why would you even consider Caribbean schools? Don't worry so much about the two letters after your name.

Thanks for the reassurance man, it means a lot.

I am only trying to keep my options opened and have fall back plans.
The purpose of this thread is to investigate Caribbean school as a second option. Weighing the pros and cons.
I do get a little overzealous in collecting information, so if I come off to strongly in this thread, I apologize.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

OP is 3.1/29, which is possible but unlikely. If he takes an extra year and does a post-bacc, replacing a few of the lower grades, he'll pretty much be a shoe in. He has good ECs which increases his chances for this year.

Unlikely? OP will get multiple acceptances providing s/he applies to the right schools and has average ECs and does have the personality of a rock....

 

[Escape_Goat]

Forget the haters, OP. You should totally ignore the consensus view of this thread and all of the information provided to support that consensus and apply to the Caribbean.

Let us know how it works out.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Patient Joe Schmoe might not know or care about you going to a Caribbean med school, but residency program directors sure will. And it's no secret that US MD/DO graduates are going to have a huge advantage over IMGs when it comes to getting the match.

You are so right... After working in healthcare for almost 8 years, I can safely say 99% of patients don't know the degree (MD/DO) of the physicians who treat them... Heck! even most of the nurses don't know that MD/DO degrees nonsense that is always popping up in SDN.

 

[costales]

In the real world, people are either too sick or too busy to give a rat's ass.

 

[DrModern]

In the real world, people are either too sick or too busy to give a rat's ass.

Thank you for that insightful perspective from the real world

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I sincerely appreciate everyone's help. I am just trying to get some concrete fact concerning Caribbean graduates vs. DO graduates.
Simply saying one is inferior to the other is not really helping my investigation.

I apologize in advance to everyone who think this post is a drag.
I tend to be overzealous in collecting information. I like to keep my options open. And finding out more about the pros and cons of Caribbean schools just happen to be one of them.

In the Caribbean, 50% of your class will be gone by 2nd year. Of those remaining, 50% will get a residency. As a Caribbean student, you have a 75% chance to end up in debt with no job. If you're in the luck 25%, which will diminish with all the new MD and DO schools opening, you're pretty much stuck into primary care or psychiatry. If that's your ambition, no problem, but if you find out that you really love Urology or Otolaryngology, that will never happen. At least with DO school you have a chance. Yes, there are some that make it into EM or Gas, but I assure you that for a Caribbean graduates that's the equivalent of a DO matching into a top specialty.

Getting into DO school right now is open field for anyone willing to put in the work to increase their GPA, EC and MCAT. Lucky for you, you only need to work on your GPA. Don't waste your time in the Caribbean just because you're desperate to get into medical school. Getting in is exciting and fun, but it won't matter if you can't make it into a residency. Also, getting an MD from the Caribbean is useless in terms of how other physicians see your MD. Sure, you may avoid the 1 or 2 odd conversations a year to a patient explaining what a DO is (You can always just get your coat to read "Dr. X Y" instead of "X Y, DO"), but aside from that, all physicians will see you went to a Caribbean school when you apply to a job (or anyone Googling you to be honest). It doesn't give you an advantage over a DO, so it can't be a "pro."

 

[adriano710]

I am totally supporting DO schools but I know people who go to CMS for like a year or so and then get into American medical schools (usually MD). I'm not sure about the path this involved though.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I am totally supporting DO schools but I know people who go to CMS for like a year or so and then get into American medical schools (usually MD). I'm not sure about the path this involved though.

That is EXTREMELY hard to do, but even osteopathic students can apply to those transfers.

 

[DrModern]

In the Caribbean, 50% of your class will be gone by 2nd year. Of those remaining, 50% will get a residency. As a Caribbean student, you have a 75% chance to end up in debt with no job. If you're in the luck 25%, which will diminish with all the new MD and DO schools opening, you're pretty much stuck into primary care or psychiatry. If that's your ambition, no problem, but if you find out that you really love Urology or Otolaryngology, that will never happen. At least with DO school you have a chance. Yes, there are some that make it into EM or Gas, but I assure you that for a Caribbean graduates that's the equivalent of a DO matching into a top specialty.

Getting into DO school right now is open field for anyone willing to put in the work to increase their GPA, EC and MCAT. Lucky for you, you only need to work on your GPA. Don't waste your time in the Caribbean just because you're desperate to get into medical school. Getting in is exciting and fun, but it won't matter if you can't make it into a residency. Also, getting an MD from the Caribbean is useless in terms of how other physicians see your MD. Sure, you may avoid the 1 or 2 odd conversations a year to a patient explaining what a DO is (You can always just get your coat to read "Dr. X Y" instead of "X Y, DO"), but aside from that, all physicians will see you went to a Caribbean school when you apply to a job (or anyone Googling you to be honest). It doesn't give you an advantage over a DO, so it can't be a "pro."

Thank you for your input.

 

[el_duderino]

Unlikely? OP will get multiple acceptances providing s/he applies to the right schools and has average ECs and does have the personality of a rock....

What do you base this on?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

What do you base this on?

School specific threads...

 

[el_duderino]

School specific threads...

Could you link to some examples? Here's one example: 3.05/35 applied to 6 DO schools in June and never got a single II from any of them. I learned of one guy who got into CCOM with something like a 3.25/37 yesterday.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Could you link to some examples? Here's one example: 3.05/35 applied to 6 DO schools in June and never got a single II from any of them. I learned of one guy who got into CCOM with something like a 3.25/37 yesterday.

Check the school specific threads and the last two year underdog threads... You can see from this thread that you are probably the only person who said it 's unlikely OP will get into DO... Almost everyone else said that s/he probably will get into low tier... Go back and read this entire thread!

Edit.... http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/2013-2014-underdawgs-thread-lets-get-it.1000254/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/the-2012-2013-underdog-thread.910661/

 

[el_duderino]

Cool list. I see one person on that list with a 3.08/3.05/27 got an acceptance. That's cool.

 

[rzoo14]

You have to apply smart if you're an underdog in any way. Don't aim to high or you won't get any interviews.

 

[user3]

Could you link to some examples? Here's one example: 3.05/35 applied to 6 DO schools in June and never got a single II from any of them. I learned of one guy who got into CCOM with something like a 3.25/37 yesterday.

Cookiesncream: 3.05/2.95/28, 5 ii's
Victoriax87: 3.1/2.9/27, 8 ii's
Ogmora: 3.1/2.9/27, 4 ii's
madnemo: 3.2/26, 5 ii's
Cajunmedic: 3.4/3.1/24, 3 ii's
Indianarn: 3.3/22, 4 ii's

Plus at least 4 other people on here accepted with 3.0-3.1 sgpa and 24-25 mcat

 

[el_duderino]

That's cool about ogmora, victoria, and cookiesncream. I'd suggest that 3.1 is very different from 3.4, 3.3, or even 3.2. I wonder which of those applicants might be URMs?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Thanks for the reassurance man, it means a lot.

I am only trying to keep my options opened and have fall back plans.
The purpose of this thread is to investigate Caribbean school as a second option. Weighing the pros and cons.
I do get a little overzealous in collecting information, so if I come off to strongly in this thread, I apologize.

Yea dude go Pod before Carib. Seriously, its a little hidden gem in the medical profession.

 

[user3]

That's cool about ogmora, victoria, and cookiesncream. I'd suggest that 3.1 is very different from 3.4, 3.3, or even 3.2. I wonder which of those applicants might be URMs?

none that I know of.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Yea dude go Pod before Carib. Seriously, its a little hidden gem in the medical profession.

But for some reason people really don't wanna go to pod school.

It is really easy to get into, but just as tough as med school once u get in

 

[deleted436726]

But for some reason people really don't wanna go to pod school.

It is really easy to get into, but just as tough as med school once u get in

Probably because the only people who want to be foot doctors are those who really like feet.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Probably because the only people who want to be foot doctors are those who really like feet.

Your ignorance is showing... Go shadow a surgical pod and you will see its actually a sweet and lucrative business where you definitely have the opportunity to help people. Its absolutely my backup if I dont get into DO. I only chose DO simply for more opportunity into other specialties I have not been exposed to yet, not because I in any way dislike feet. I think most reasonable people could respect the people going into that profession as hard working and caring people.

The reality is that most people who choose a specialty (ie not a generalist field). Will see one part of the body pretty much for the rest of their careers. Lets say you are a neurosurgeon, or an ortho surg who does mostly hand work, or a urologist, just to name a few. They all will have one body part that they specialize in and attempt to gain some semblance of mastery over. I know primary care docs who refer just as much to pods as they would to any other medical specialty - especially with the boom in the aging and diabetic population.

 

[DrEnderW]

Your ignorance is showing...

Agreed. The ankle and foot is insanely complicated and is an excellent area of orthopedics. There's 28 bones, over 30 joints, and a million ligaments and tendons. It's natural, I think, to dislike the idea but its structurally and mechanically very complex.

To be able to do similar procedures as an ortho surgeon as a surgically trained pod is a steal. With that being said, I would never personally go that route but it is a viable option. There are even academic pods that publish in AJSM and JBJS routinely (with way more representation overall than DOs).

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Agreed. The ankle and foot is insanely complicated and is an excellent area of orthopedics. There's 28 bones, over 30 joints, and a million ligaments and tendons. It's natural, I think, to dislike the idea but its structurally and mechanically very complex.

To be able to do similar procedures as an ortho surgeon as a surgically trained pod is a steal. With that being said, I would never personally go that route but it is a viable option. There are even academic pods that publish in AJSM and JBJS routinely (with way more representation overall than DOs).

Thank you, that is what I am trying to suggest. The Pods I worked for previously are incredibly knowledgeable and it was a pleasure to work with them. The foot its definitely very complex. Sure there are some common stuff that they have to do to pay the bills (toe nails and such). But there is actually a significant amount of radiology, derm, vascular path, ortho, and then just overall primary care that they do every day. The ones I worked with all did research and had published material.

Again, I have my reasons not to go into pod school (what if I get in and find out I dont like it as much as I thought - ie out $200,000). But if it happened to become a branch of MD/DO, not only would I bet my stars that a ton of people would go into it, but I personally would have interest in going into the field.

 

[QueenJames]

go DO. I know a doctor who graduated from a Caribbean school and is now doing second intern year as he is not able to match anywhere.

Same here. The chick I met was finally able to get a position somewhere out in Minnesota in psychiatry, but it took her 3 try's. She graduated college in 2005 and just now got residency!!

May I ask whether these individuals went to Ross or Saint George? Apparently those are the "top" Caribbean schools to go to. I myself know two people from the two schools about to take their Step 1 and they say that as long as they pass that they are "free and clear" according to them.
Does it matter WHICH school you went to? This stuff is really crazy nonetheless.

 

[deleted436726]

May I ask whether these individuals went to Ross or Saint George? Apparently those are the "top" Caribbean schools to go to. I myself know two people from the two schools about to take their Step 1 and they say that as long as they pass that they are "free and clear" according to them.
Does it matter WHICH school you went to? This stuff is really crazy nonetheless.

Going to a "top" Caribbean school is like being the smartest kid with Down syndrome.

 

[QueenJames]

Going to a "top" Caribbean school is like being the smartest kid with Down syndrome.

Cold-blooodddedddd. (In my "Dave-Chappelle-imitating-Rick-James" voice after he punches Charlie Murphy in the forehead) LMAO

But seriously though, are there any program directors on SDN that can chime in on this? do carib peeps actually get screwed over to where they cannot find a job or anything especially after passing the Step 1 which is in itself a huge feat?

 

[QueenJames]

.. for those who may not know what exact scene i'm referring to...

 

[BestDoctorEver]

May I ask whether these individuals went to Ross or Saint George? Apparently those are the "top" Caribbean schools to go to. I myself know two people from the two schools about to take their Step 1 and they say that as long as they pass that they are "free and clear" according to them.
Does it matter WHICH school you went to? This stuff is really crazy nonetheless.

If they pass step1 in their first attempt with for instance 220, they will find something in FM/IM/Psych. However, if they fail, they might never be able to get a residency. On the other hand, a US student that fails step1 will still be able to find something in primary care. Also, carib students have very slim chance for the ultra competitive specialties (Derm, Urology, ENT, Plastic etc..) no matter how high they score on step1.

 

[QueenJames]

If they pass step1 in their first attempt with for instance 220, they will find something in FM/IM/Psych. However, if they fail, they might never be able to get a residency. On the other hand, a US student that fails step1 will still be able to find something in primary care. Also, carib students have very slim chance for the ultra competitive specialties (Derm, Urology, ENT, Plastic etc..) no matter how high they score on step1.

Oh ok. However, do you think the location will be sort of in a random state? or do you think it will be in a pretty competitive state like California or New York or whatever? (I'm not too informed with residency competitiveness).

 

[DrModern]

Thanks everyone for their input, I have updated information in the original thread.
I have also posted a list of questions on the Caribbean SDN thread and received an abundance of insight.
For those who are interested:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...f-questions-are-coming.1081063/#post-15388449

This is in no way an attempt to swing people towards Caribbean schools. I am merely informing people of the different options so they can weigh it out themselves.

I stand by the opinion of majority: exhaust all USMD, DO, POD options before venturing into Caribbeans.

 

[GreyF0X]

It is obvious that everyone on this forum is going to recommend you to pick D.O. over a Carib M.D. .

If i ever had to choose which school to go to in the carib, it would only be St. George.

The top 4 Carib schools are: St George, Ross, AUC, and Saba, from top to bottom respectively. Only the first three offer Fafsa, Saba does not offer government loans, i believe. All 4 of these are known as the "Big 4" because they can practice in all 50 states.

I know a good amount of people who went to Carib schools. One failed out of St. George and had a bad experience, he is now doing business. One of them just graduated from the lower tier Carib schools after many years, he failed his step-1 2-3 times, i don't even know if he will be able to practice. I know a few more people but they are now in the U.S. doing their clinicals.

If you work real hard in a carib school you may just make it, but the risk associated with failing out or not being able to practice with a ton of debt over your head does not sound appealing to me, i would never take those odds.

If the title of M.D. means a lot to you, you are better off taking your chances through the SMP route. Then again, there are no guarantees, however you will definitley accrue more debt.

Someone on here recommended P.A., i think getting into one of those schools is about as difficult as getting into a US MD school. Podiatry is a good choice if you are interested in that field but i remember something about them having an issue landing a residency, maybe someone in the podiatry forums can elaborate on that.

 

[GreyF0X]

Thanks everyone for their input, I have updated information in the original thread.
I have also posted a list of questions on the Caribbean SDN thread and received an abundance of insight.
For those who are interested:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...f-questions-are-coming.1081063/#post-15388449

This is in no way an attempt to swing people towards Caribbean schools. I am merely informing people of the different options so they can weigh it out themselves.

I stand by the opinion of majority: exhaust all USMD, DO, POD options before venturing into Caribbeans.

If you have more questions about carib schools you should try out valuemd.com, it is the SDN of carib schools, though i do not like the interface of that website.

 

[keels99]

First of all, remember that the initial after your name doesn't mean anything if the quality of your health care delivery is not up to the par.

I got in an in depth discussion regarding the viability of Caribbean schools in this thread, for those of you who are interested in a change in perspective/ a little insight:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...f-questions-are-coming.1081063/#post-15388449

Note that it has high attrition rate than USMD/ DO, roughly 10-20% (as expected because they admit people who are less than qualified, some of whom actually use their financial aid to gamble in casino, so number doesn't tell you the whole story).

Despite how rumor has it, the residency placement rate is more around 90%.
So around 70-80% of the students who enroll in the first year get into residency.

This is according to Ross Medical School (one of the big four):
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/About-Ross-University-School-of-Medicine.cfm
Performance on USMLE Step 1
Performance on Step 1 of the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) is one of the most important determinants in a medical student's ability to obtain the residency of his or her choosing. In 2013, RUSM achieved a first-time pass rate of 97 percent on USMLE, which is on par with the rate achieved by US and Canadian schools, and above the rate achieved by osteopathic schools (94 percent) and international schools (79 percent).

Track Record of Residency Success
Over the last five years, RUSM has placed more graduates into U.S. residency programs than any other school in the world. Many of our graduates obtain residencies at the earliest available start dates and are well received by residency directors in programs approved by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME)-approved hospitals throughout the United States.

If you look at the match rate of US IMG (Caribbean school), it doesn't look half bad. At least not as bad as how some people put it.

However, please note that Caribbean schools are extremely expansive and if you are failed out, you're in debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Conclusion: Exhaust all options in USMD, DO, POD, before venturing into Caribbean.

Something important to include is a lot of people drop out in these Caribbean programs in the first year, hence the good USMLE pass rates for some. I was strongly encouraged to apply DO vs MD by my adviser. It was cheaper, closer to home, and I was told it would be easier to secure a residency. I think Caribbean is a good option for reapplicants or people who simply want to experience living on an island for their schooling, but the immense debt isn't worth it, especially if you are planning on going into a lower paid specialty. In the end, it's up to you. I am personally glad I chose DO because I seriously considered going Caribbean at St. George. Message me if you have any questions I can help you with!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Someone on here recommended P.A., i think getting into one of those schools is about as difficult as getting into a US MD school. Podiatry is a good choice if you are interested in that field but i remember something about them having an issue landing a residency, maybe someone in the podiatry forums can elaborate on that.

They don't have enough residencies for all their graduates at this time. About 85% do find a residency. However, this will only get better because they've put a freeze on schools opening up and class sizes expanding while developing new residencies.