"Sorry to admit its all about the bucks"....lets prove em wrong!

Lawgiver

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"After working in Hospitals for over 40 years, I believe it's true. All about the bucks. Most MD's start off altruistic but get twisted some were down the line. Like assembly line piece workers they get paid by the "each". That's why they over book. God forbid if someone does not show. I understand they have to cover their expenses, student loans and have to hire a full time staff to deal with idiot insurance company trolls. How many of them would work in medicine if they "only" made $150,000 to $200,000 per year? I asked some of them and they said it would not be worth it. It's a shame the US has one of the most expensive health care system but not the best health care system…

Old Hospital axiom I learned years ago. When in doubt why something is happening……. follow the bucks…

mitch"

I will prove my friend Mitch wrong and stay altruistic. Will you?
 

cliquesh

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I started off wanting to help others. Now I want to get out of the hospital everyday as soon as possible and retire as soon as possible. Medicine sucks, hah.
 
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Dr. Zombie

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I started off wanting to help others. Now I want to get out of the hospital everyday as soon as possible and retire as soon as possible. Medicine sucks, hah.
Do you think that you feel that way because you're exhausted right now working resident hours, so it gets you in a cranky mood?
 

IslandStyle808

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I started off wanting to help others. Now I want to get out of the hospital everyday as soon as possible and retire as soon as possible. Medicine sucks, hah.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm, literal, or a mixture of the two. I'm starting to think I'm bad at english, hah.
 

cliquesh

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Do you think that you feel that way because you're exhausted right now working resident hours, so it gets you in a cranky mood?
I can't tell if this is sarcasm, literal, or a mixture of the two. I'm starting to think I'm bad at english, hah.
I'm being serious. I like the idea of medicine, but I don't like the practice of medicine at all. I think we often do more harm than good
 

PlaqueBuster

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The doctor I shadowed told me upfront that if you want to make money DO NOT DO MEDICINE. So I don't buy it for a second that people become doctors for the money. If that is the case then they clearly need some more shadowing experience and talks with physicians. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that many doctors make lots of money but the effort they put in can get them more money in a different field. So its not about the bucks...those type of people tend to hate their work if they came into this field with that ambition
 

Dr. Zombie

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The doctor I shadowed told me upfront that if you want to make money DO NOT DO MEDICINE. So I don't buy it for a second that people become doctors for the money. If that is the case then they clearly need some more shadowing experience and talks with physicians. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that many doctors make lots of money but the effort they put in can get them more money in a different field. So its not about the bucks...those type of people tend to hate their work if they came into this field with that ambition
200k is enough for me. Everyone around me makes 60-80k on average.

I suppose the range considered to be "making money"is subjective.
 

Dr. Zombie

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200k is enough for me. Everyone around me makes 60-80k on average.

I love science. The idea that I could make 200k motivates me to work through medical school. If it was down to passion and not money I'd go be a PA.

I suppose the range considered to be "making money"is subjective.
 

PlaqueBuster

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200k is enough for me. Everyone around me makes 60-80k on average.

I suppose the range considered to be "making money"is subjective.
200k is plenty but you forget the liability costs and student loans. It adds up.
 

Roberie

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"Altruism" is a term slung around by premeds who've been brainwashed by the dogma that it is somehow wrong to be financially successful.

What is wrong with being paid well for providing expert service? The longer I slog through education and training the more jaded I become about people assuming doctors are supposed to be like Mother Teresa and work for free.
 

DoctorSynthesis

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"Altruism" is a term slung around by premeds who've been brainwashed by the dogma that it is somehow wrong to be financially successful.

What is wrong with being paid well for providing expert service? The longer I slog through education and training the more jaded I become about people assuming doctors are supposed to be like Mother Teresa and work for free.
I don't think the argument is that there is nothing wrong with wanting to get paid well for expert service. However the compensation shouldn't be the only thing.

But what do I know
 

Roberie

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I don't think the argument is that there is nothing wrong with wanting to get paid well for expert service. However the compensation shouldn't be the only thing.

But what do I know
Altruism: The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.


By that definition I am not altruistic. It is an idealized talking point for admissions essays. I care a great deal about my patients' outcomes and it is my ethical responsibility to act in their interest. However, the definition of altruism suggests I'm wholly disinterested in the recompense for my services.
 

DoctorSynthesis

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Altruism: The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.


By that definition I am not altruistic. It is an idealized talking point for admissions essays. I care a great deal about my patients' outcomes and it is my ethical responsibility to act in their interest. However, the definition of altruism suggests I'm wholly disinterested in the recompense for my services.
You don't have to be altruistic saint IMO. You just have to be a caring good person.
 

user3

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hypothetically-- what is wrong with going into medicine for money when for-profit med schools like RVU exist?

We can talk all day about altruism and caring and $$$-- but when it comes to matters like these, medical schools themselves set the example and set the standard. And since we are fine with opening expressly for-profit medical schools, how is it wrong for students, by extension, to pursue this career for financial reasons?
 
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Talk to these guys:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-usa-alabama-police-idUSKCN0IC05720141023

Alabama man gets $1,000 in police settlement, his lawyers get $459,000
By Sherrel Wheeler Stewart
BIRMINGHAM Ala. Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:54pm EDT

(Reuters) - An Alabama man who sued over being hit and kicked by police after leading them on a high-speed chase will get $1,000 in a settlement with the city of Birmingham, while his attorneys will take in $459,000, officials said Wednesday.
 

Awesome Sauceome

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Thats a "grass is greener" argument though... Everyone I have talked to in law has said the field is dying because they have too many graduates. Then I hear on here that medicine is terrible and people should run from it (though I will admit I can understand especially with regards to having to deal with insurance companies and stuff).

I talked to a CT surgeon about this issue once and he looked me point blank in the face and said: "everybody on earth is working hard, just find a job where you make enough money to pay the bills and want to wake up in the morning."

He then went on to talk about how he has friends his age who went into business, work more hours than him - some make less than him, some make more. Its not like law, or business, or any other field for that matter is inherently better bang for your buck or more appealing.

I think there is some truth to what he said. Unless you are fine making <50K a year working an easy, non-stressful job, then suck it up, we all are signing up for this. Basically any job that is over that 50K mark you are probably going to be working with a lot of stress, a lot of schooling, debt, and long hours. Heck my own dad was an architectural engineer (got fired after 10 years or so), the dude EASILY worked 80 hours a week (no laws against that here folks, if he slowed down he would be canned and replaced by one of the dozens of people waiting in line), was essentially chained to his desk, and basically hated his life and was barely pulling in 100K. I have no doubt in my mind at all that anyone -short of people born into money, people who invested well, or made a catchy iphone app- will be working long hours for what they consider is "crap money." It is just how society works.... So why not have a dang near guarantee stable job, with good money, and the ability to make even some inkling of a difference in people's lives... being a physician seems good in that sense. I could work like a slave and stare at a computer all day by working in computer tech or engineering or something and make 80-120K or I can go through med school, do some decent stuff for people, stare at computers at least a little less than most jobs and pull in 160-200K.

This idea that there is a better job out there is a fabricated myth that everyone in every field tells themselves to give themselves hope... "I heard that THAT job is better, so I am going to go over to that line of work." Then they get there and its the exact same crap they had to deal with at the previous job. Again, its just how it is, we have to work until we die, thats fine. Just find something you enjoy and are called to (either internally, spiritually, whatever) and that pays the bills. I say all of this as someone in the working world (out of school), barely making enough to survive month to month while supporting my wife who is in school. Every 3-6 months I get this intense desire to quit my job because of some "fairy tale" job that I think exists elsewhere. But I am reminded that I will run into the exact same thing everywhere I go, it is the nature of this thing that we call "work," you have to work, and sometimes it sucks.
 
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Awesome Sauceome

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And to the residents in this thread (or people who have talked to attendings about this stuff); I dont mean that long post to be like "oh you are wrong and dont know what you are talking about." Not at all, obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, thats cool... It is meant more as a reminder... Look back at past jobs that you had. Look at some of the jobs your friends have. Mayyybe there is one job or another where you really see that you could be happy. And perhaps thats where you should be instead? Who is anyone to say? But I would bet all the money in the world that if you really had to work in another one of those "better" jobs for more than a couple weeks, you would more than likely feel worse off or at least the same as you do now.
 

baxt1412

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nobody wakes up and is like OH MAN I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAD INTO WORK TODAY!!!!!!!!!! at least not everyday. you of course have those days, but then again we all have days where we just want to curl up on the couch and sleep the day away.


@Awesome Sauceome i agree with that quote "just find something you like and do it"
 

user3

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Thats a "grass is greener" argument though... Everyone I have talked to in law has said the field is dying because they have too many graduates. Then I hear on here that medicine is terrible and people should run from it (though I will admit I can understand especially with regards to having to deal with insurance companies and stuff).

I talked to a CT surgeon about this issue once and he looked me point blank in the face and said: "everybody on earth is working hard, just find a job where you make enough money to pay the bills and want to wake up in the morning."

He then went on to talk about how he has friends his age who went into business, work more hours than him - some make less than him, some make more. Its not like law, or business, or any other field for that matter is inherently better bang for your buck or more appealing.

I think there is some truth to what he said. Unless you are fine making <50K a year working an easy, non-stressful job, then suck it up, we all are signing up for this. Basically any job that is over that 50K mark you are probably going to be working with a lot of stress, a lot of schooling, debt, and long hours. Heck my own dad was an architectural engineer (got fired after 10 years or so), the dude EASILY worked 80 hours a week (no laws against that here folks, if he slowed down he would be canned and replaced by one of the dozens of people waiting in line), was essentially chained to his desk, and basically hated his life and was barely pulling in 100K. I have no doubt in my mind at all that anyone -short of people born into money, people who invested well, or made a catchy iphone app- will be working long hours for what they consider is "crap money." It is just how society works.... So why not have a dang near guarantee stable job, with good money, and the ability to make even some inkling of a difference in people's lives... being a physician seems good in that sense. I could work like a slave and stare at a computer all day by working in computer tech or engineering or something and make 80-120K or I can go through med school, do some decent stuff for people, stare at computers at least a little less than most jobs and pull in 160-200K.

This idea that there is a better job out there is a fabricated myth that everyone in every field tells themselves to give themselves hope... "I heard that THAT job is better, so I am going to go over to that line of work." Then they get there and its the exact same crap they had to deal with at the previous job. Again, its just how it is, we have to work until we die, thats fine. Just find something you enjoy and are called to (either internally, spiritually, whatever) and that pays the bills. I say all of this as someone in the working world (out of school), barely making enough to survive month to month while supporting my wife who is in school. Every 3-6 months I get this intense desire to quit my job because of some "fairy tale" job that I think exists elsewhere. But I am reminded that I will run into the exact same thing everywhere I go, it is the nature of this thing that we call "work," you have to work, and sometimes it sucks.
one disadvantage with medicine is a somewhat limited skill set- that if God forbid, those skills lack end up lacking demand (ie pathologist job market) you will have possibly wasted a great deal of time, money, and stress. There are no guarantees that any specialty will have decent pay or decent job market, and in other careers, it is likely easier to switch elsewhere if worse comes to worst and you won't have invested as much time/money.
 

Awesome Sauceome

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one disadvantage with medicine is a somewhat limited skill set- that if God forbid, those skills lack end up lacking demand (ie pathologist job market) you will have possibly wasted a great deal of time, money, and stress. There are no guarantees that any specialty will have decent pay or decent job market, and in other careers, it is likely easier to switch elsewhere if worse comes to worst and you won't have invested as much time/money.
See I would have the exact opposite argument. Lets say your specialty really does go belly up (though its super exaggerated here on SDN), you can always teach, do research, work in pharmaceuticals, hospital admin (with a MPH or MBA), hell the patent office will even pay you big bucks.

I have never personally heard of a physician struggling to find some kind of work...
 

Goro

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There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to make money.

"After working in Hospitals for over 40 years, I believe it's true. All about the bucks. Most MD's start off altruistic but get twisted some were down the line. Like assembly line piece workers they get paid by the "each". That's why they over book. God forbid if someone does not show. I understand they have to cover their expenses, student loans and have to hire a full time staff to deal with idiot insurance company trolls. How many of them would work in medicine if they "only" made $150,000 to $200,000 per year? I asked some of them and they said it would not be worth it. It's a shame the US has one of the most expensive health care system but not the best health care system…

Old Hospital axiom I learned years ago. When in doubt why something is happening……. follow the bucks…

mitch"

I will prove my friend Mitch wrong and stay altruistic. Will you?