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:troll:
Do you guys really think this way?At first this thread depressed me.
Then I realizied this is one less person to contend with for a seat in medical school.
Do you guys really think this way?
Oh. Well shame on you then.Actually I had a thought like this to myself the other day.
I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore....
Yes, actually. But the s[p]it hasn't hit the fan yet, so.
At first this thread depressed me.
Then I realizied this is one less person to contend with for a seat in medical school.
I always liked doing the walkin clinic exam and you have to smell the creases and crevices of the human body.true dat. There really aren't many jobs where every day you get to sit down with strangers you never met before and ask them if they have sex with "men, women or both", and whether they are stooling normally.
When put into said context, I feel a tad bit more foolish, thank you kind sir.
I thought we were all becoming doctors to avoid having a lifeSure becoming a doctor isn't paradise. Welcome to the reality of life.
I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore. Apparently it sucks to be a doctor, and it's really not worth pursuing:
- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools
- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields
- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder
- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect
- Malpractice abuse
- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?
- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system
Sounds like it pretty much sucks, and it's bound to suck even more in the future, at least in the US--Am I missing something?
Naive pre-meds who think "helping people" and "saving lives" are all that matters, why would anybody go into medicine in this country?
These are all the reasons I went into medicine! Helping people is just a bonus.
Blue is me
I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore. Apparently it sucks to be a doctor, and it's really not worth pursuing:
- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools
- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields
- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder
- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect
- Malpractice abuse
- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?
- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system
Sounds like it pretty much sucks, and it's bound to suck even more in the future, at least in the US--Am I missing something?
Naive pre-meds who think "helping people" and "saving lives" are all that matters, why would anybody go into medicine in this country?
OP is bitter. Did you get rejected on your application?
Wasn't meant to be a troll thread, I was summarizing the things I'm seeing now that I've been more methodical about making this decision. When I was younger, it all seemed to simple, I wanted to be a doctor and that's all that mattered. Now I have a nice job, and I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to give medicine a shot.
I was serious, am I missing something? What's good about medicine as a career, other than a good salary? I think it's not all it's cracked up to be.
Furthermore, not every job is hell, I love my job, I love my life, I feel very lucky. Considering the emotional, physical, and financial costs, I think I'd actually be giving up a lot by going into medicine. I'm wondering what people like about it, and I don't think most premeds even realize the consequences of choosing this path.
I think the OP has some valid concerns, for one thing it is clear that the prospects for future doctors are very different from the lifestyles enjoyed by 20th century doctors. Numerous polls have found that around 40% of doctors are not sure they would go into medicine if they had to do it all over again. Paperwork and administrative concerns are among the most common reasons that many doctors have become disillusioned. Those of us who want to go into medicine for the right reasons do it because we want that experience of devoting our lives to helping others through illness and injury. The problem is that increasingly doctors are being required to devote more time to non-clinical matters, while time with patients is being limited.
Of course there is some variation between specialties, as an internist my mom has seen her average daily patient volume expand from 12 to 16, her median appointment time shrink from 30 min to 15 min, and her average workday grow from 9 hours to 11 hours over her 30 year career. As a surgeon, my dad has been more immune to pressures to see more patients as surgeries cannot be rushed. In general, primary care has seen the brunt of the increased time pressure on physicians, and doctors who regret going into medicine are far more concentrated in primary care according to polls.
Wealth is also a terrible reason to go into medicine. Although US doctors have traditionally enjoyed incomes in the top 2%, incomes for many fields are falling relative to inflation and signs point to much more drastic reductions in income in the future. For most docs medicare is set to become the largest source of reimbursement in the near future, and at the current pace of growth medicare (and entitlement) costs are set to expand to eat up the entire US budget in about 50 years. Drastic reductions in cost and payments will be required to make this system sustainable, and with physician services accounting for 23% of the budget it is unwise to believe that doctors compensation wont be a big part of the cuts. Specialists will be hit the hardest, in the US the average specialist compensation is 600% of per capita GDP, compared with the OECD average of 300% of per capita GDP. The US economy in general is in for some serious trouble in the coming decades so standards of living in general are likely to decline.
But the great thing about being a doctor is that you will be a valuable member of society in any economy. Respect for doctors in general may be declining, but I believe any doctor who can demonstrate that their motivation is caring for others, not finances, will have no trouble endearing themselves with the community.
there is a legitimate concern that very bright and motivated students from top colleges may choose a job on Wall Street rather than a career in medicine.
(I've read a couple of articles about some doctors encouraging their kids not to go into medicine, I'll dig them up if you guys are interested). The primary attack on the OP seems to be that he is going into medicine for the money - but there is a legitimate concern that very bright and motivated students from top colleges may choose a job on Wall Street rather than a career in medicine. Can they really be blamed for opting for a better life for their family and sacrificing other aspirations (medicine may be one of them)?
^I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore. Apparently it sucks to be a doctor, and it's really not worth pursuing:
- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools
Yes, so is for undergrad, so is for graduate school, so is all professional schools. And they're increasing. This is a feature of the US, not medical school
- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields
On the rise for some, on the decline for others. Depends on the specialty. Rads/Cards getting hit bad. Some other IM subspecialties increasing, EM, FP increasing or staying steady
- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder
Insurance companies make it hard. They don't pay you when you bill them. Lots of paperwork because of the billing codes agreed.
- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect
Get as much respect as any other professional. In my experience, you treat people well, they will too. You cant have a god complex around patients and expect them to treat you with respects
- Malpractice abuse
Agreed. Unfortunate circumstance of the nature of our society and laws governing malpractice
- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?
I used to think long hours didn't help learning. I used to think call was not necessary. Now I know better. I've learnt more on my 23rd hour of a call shift admitting patients and reading about that patient in the moment then ever from sitting infront of a textbook reading fresh after 8 hours of sleep. Call is the most important time to learn as a med student and rounds. Everything in between call and rounds should be optional
If you want to be healthy, you will be. Its not THAT bad. People in medicine act though if they worked 20 less hours they would exercise more yet are the same ones that refuse to take stairs on rounds and head for the pizza on lunch instead of salad.
- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system
Are the leaders that actually have a say in the system. Midlevels and nurse/staff dont have a say otherwise would be jobless
Sounds like it pretty much sucks, and it's bound to suck even more in the future, at least in the US--Am I missing something?
Could go either way. If doctors and other health professionals continue to do nothing, then it will get worse. If we organize, fight then things might get better. Many aspects to medicine, some might get worse, some better.
Naive pre-meds who think "helping people" and "saving lives" are all that matters, why would anybody go into medicine in this country?
Its not all that matters, but it does matter. It does matter to have a job thats meaningful. Thats why lots of non-trads who had well paying jobs go into medicine to get more meaning out of their work.
... As a surgeon, my dad has been more immune to pressures to see more patients as surgeries cannot be rushed...
I have two pieces of advice.
1- Don't get into medicine for the money.
2- Really, don't get into medicine for the money.
There's a reason physicians (and dentist) have such high rates of suicide, divorce, alcoholism and drug abuse. They are / were not meant for the profession and became miserable. These types could be weeded out of the profession entirely if the AdComs asked these three questions:
1- Do you want to become rich being a doctor?
2- How do you feel about the real estate market?
3- Do you like playing golf?
If the candidate says yes to 1 or 3, or shows any knowledge of the subject of 2, they should immediately be thrown out of the interview room.
I think the OP has some valid concerns, for one thing it is clear that the prospects for future doctors are very different from the lifestyles enjoyed by 20th century doctors. Numerous polls have found that around 40% of doctors are not sure they would go into medicine if they had to do it all over again. Paperwork and administrative concerns are among the most common reasons that many doctors have become disillusioned. Those of us who want to go into medicine for the right reasons do it because we want that experience of devoting our lives to helping others through illness and injury. The problem is that increasingly doctors are being required to devote more time to non-clinical matters, while time with patients is being limited.
Of course there is some variation between specialties, as an internist my mom has seen her average daily patient volume expand from 12 to 16, her median appointment time shrink from 30 min to 15 min, and her average workday grow from 9 hours to 11 hours over her 30 year career. As a surgeon, my dad has been more immune to pressures to see more patients as surgeries cannot be rushed. In general, primary care has seen the brunt of the increased time pressure on physicians, and doctors who regret going into medicine are far more concentrated in primary care according to polls.
Wealth is also a terrible reason to go into medicine. Although US doctors have traditionally enjoyed incomes in the top 2%, incomes for many fields are falling relative to inflation and signs point to much more drastic reductions in income in the future. For most docs medicare is set to become the largest source of reimbursement in the near future, and at the current pace of growth medicare (and entitlement) costs are set to expand to eat up the entire US budget in about 50 years. Drastic reductions in cost and payments will be required to make this system sustainable, and with physician services accounting for 23% of the budget it is unwise to believe that doctors compensation wont be a big part of the cuts. Specialists will be hit the hardest, in the US the average specialist compensation is 600% of per capita GDP, compared with the OECD average of 300% of per capita GDP. The US economy in general is in for some serious trouble in the coming decades so standards of living in general are likely to decline.
But the great thing about being a doctor is that you will be a valuable member of society in any economy. Respect for doctors in general may be declining, but I believe any doctor who can demonstrate that their motivation is caring for others, not finances, will have no trouble endearing themselves with the community.
It's all relative. Going to medical school and becoming a doctor may sound bad just by itself, but compared to other science-oriented professions, it's not as terrible as it sounds. From what I understand of the Ph.D. path, it's not much better on their end.
I'm sure there are cushy hospitalist gigs out there, but nobody I know has one. I've done a bunch of hospitalist moonlighting at three different institutions now, and it's always been work. Hard, stressful, legitimate work. Most of these jobs are "only" 14 days a month because no normal human being could hang for any longer than that.Trust me.. If you want to find an easy job in medicine you can.
You can be a hospitalist, work 14 days a month, make $250,000 doing fairly easy work. It might be mundane work but it is not difficult and really is not that stressful. Sick people go to the ICU. You don't have to worry about procedural complications. You don't have to pull your hair out sitting with someone in clinic. Any headscratchers get consulted out.
I can't imagine another profession with guaranteed >200K income with a similar set up.
Wasn't meant to be a troll thread, I was summarizing the things I'm seeing now that I've been more methodical about making this decision. When I was younger, it all seemed to simple, I wanted to be a doctor and that's all that mattered. Now I have a nice job, and I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to give medicine a shot.
I was serious, am I missing something? What's good about medicine as a career, other than a good salary? I think it's not all it's cracked up to be.
Furthermore, not every job is hell, I love my job, I love my life, I feel very lucky. Considering the emotional, physical, and financial costs, I think I'd actually be giving up a lot by going into medicine. I'm wondering what people like about it, and I don't think most premeds even realize the consequences of choosing this path.
Im aware that doctors have other responsibilities, but if it takes you 5-7 hours a day to review labs, catch up on calls, hassle for pre-authorizations, etc, you are doing something terribly wrong. The fm doc i did my rotation with saw 40 a day. The outpatient IM rotated with 60-90 a day (he used 3 nps and us med students to get h&p, then popped in for like 45 seconds). Both were 8-10 hours a day and took 1 day off a week to catch up on paperwork etc.It all depends on their clinic schedule for the day. Some doctors will have a full schedule going from 8am until 4:30 pm (depends on when the last patient is scheduled) and have a patient scheduled for every 15 minutes. Other days their clinic schedule will only be half full. For those days they are busy doing other things like readings (images, labs, etc), paper work, etc.
Most doctors don't go running around with a patient scheduled every 15 minutes their entire career. Hell, you are more likely NOT to have a full schedule than having a full schedule.
How does your mom only see 16 patients in 11 hours? Most internests I have seen are around 25-35 in 8-9 hours. At about 15 minutes per appointment that is 4 hours of patient care a day in an ideal world (I know that is never the case). I pretty much agree with you though, its great that you have a realistic idea of medicine.
naw...waitlisted.
What, exactly, is this magical alternative? EVERY career is suffering.
I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore. Apparently it sucks to be a doctor, and it's really not worth pursuing:
- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools
- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields
- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder
- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect
- Malpractice abuse
- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?
- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system
Sounds like it pretty much sucks, and it's bound to suck even more in the future, at least in the US--Am I missing something?
Naive pre-meds who think "helping people" and "saving lives" are all that matters, why would anybody go into medicine in this country?
In Soviet Russia (where I'm from) the docs may not have had to deal with malpractice or med school loans, but their hours were very long, they did house visits all day in tall buildings with no elevators, and their pay was a pittance (my parents tell me janitors earned more). When they graduated medical school, instead of choosing where to practice or have a residency, they were often thrown into the middle of butt **** nowhere to get experience, where they were forced to work for years, and were the only doctor available to the surrounding villages - where they made house calls, and treat anything, and everything that came up. They went into the field for noble reasons, and were willing to take on the hardships and sacrifices their career would bring.
Hospitalist is not an easy job at all.
I read an article about immigrants that came to the US with pennies, gained citizenship, and are now multimillionaire business owners. Being a penniless immigrant is way better than going into medicine.
- ... Good for him, too bad most lawyers really don't make that much. Not to mention the ethical dilemma for many of them.
I can go on, but you get it.
Atul Gawande, mentioned above, had a good article a while back where he suggested it was foolish to ever compare a physician to the "average" person in another field, because the person who achieved in medicine was the kind of uber smart, hardest working type individual you only find in the upper echelons of pretty much any field. Someone who can achieve in medicine could achieve in numerous other fields, not be average. So saying eg "most lawyers really don't make that much" is off the mark -- the question is how the lawyers with the grades and work ethic to get through medicine and residency do, which is a much more selective group, who generally do fine. Having straddled both careers, I tend to agree. My med school classmates would have easily outshined the "average" of my law school classmates, and the residents I've worked with have a better work ethic and work hard -play hard attitude than most of my fellow colleagues in law. So to compare apples to apples, you pretty much have to compare med students to the better law graduates, not the "average", or "most lawyers". You guys have to realize that if you have the mettle to get into med school, you have a lot of choices in life. If you devote the same kind of effort to law or business that you devote to getting into and through med school and residency, you probably do quite well in any field. So it really is about what you want to do. Never foolishly talk yourself out of things by saying, "well most people don't do that well". Guess what, you aren't "most people". Most people couldnt achieve what the typical physician does. The better subsegment of the law and business trainees are your comparisons. Not the average.
Doctors are getting divorced left, right and center. Medicine is no longer what it used to be.
Since you asked... The first step would be to repeal ObamaCare because it is essentially the same model as the one prior, letting insurances continue miserly with their reimbursements and unethical habits. Anyone who tells you that Obamacare will save the American healthcare system is a liar. Call them out.
Secondly, adopt a single-payer system like the more 'modern' countries of the world. Pay your taxes, and with it allow the govn't to pay for healthcare.
Right and left agree that Obamacare is not the answer to our healthcare problem. It is a rushed program. Its broken. Analogous to TARP, essentially it does nothing productive and will lead to great inefficency down the road. Vote for Ron Paul. A true libertarian.
You get to say youre a doctor, i really dont know whats so bad about that...
Atul Gawande, mentioned above, had a good article a while back where he suggested it was foolish to ever compare a physician to the "average" person in another field, because the person who achieved in medicine was the kind of uber smart, hardest working type individual you only find in the upper echelons of pretty much any field. Someone who can achieve in medicine could achieve in numerous other fields, not be average. So saying eg "most lawyers really don't make that much" is off the mark -- the question is how the lawyers with the grades and work ethic to get through medicine and residency do, which is a much more selective group, who generally do fine. Having straddled both careers, I tend to agree. My med school classmates would have easily outshined the "average" of my law school classmates, and the residents I've worked with have a better work ethic and work hard -play hard attitude than most of my fellow colleagues in law. So to compare apples to apples, you pretty much have to compare med students to the better law graduates, not the "average", or "most lawyers". You guys have to realize that if you have the mettle to get into med school, you have a lot of choices in life. If you devote the same kind of effort to law or business that you devote to getting into and through med school and residency, you probably do quite well in any field. So it really is about what you want to do. Never foolishly talk yourself out of things by saying, "well most people don't do that well". Guess what, you aren't "most people". Most people couldnt achieve what the typical physician does. The better subsegment of the law and business trainees are your comparisons. Not the average.
Atul Gawande, mentioned above, had a good article a while back where he suggested it was foolish to ever compare a physician to the "average" person in another field, because the person who achieved in medicine was the kind of uber smart, hardest working type individual you only find in the upper echelons of pretty much any field. Someone who can achieve in medicine could achieve in numerous other fields, not be average. So saying eg "most lawyers really don't make that much" is off the mark -- the question is how the lawyers with the grades and work ethic to get through medicine and residency do, which is a much more selective group, who generally do fine. Having straddled both careers, I tend to agree. My med school classmates would have easily outshined the "average" of my law school classmates, and the residents I've worked with have a better work ethic and work hard -play hard attitude than most of my fellow colleagues in law. So to compare apples to apples, you pretty much have to compare med students to the better law graduates, not the "average", or "most lawyers". You guys have to realize that if you have the mettle to get into med school, you have a lot of choices in life. If you devote the same kind of effort to law or business that you devote to getting into and through med school and residency, you probably do quite well in any field. So it really is about what you want to do. Never foolishly talk yourself out of things by saying, "well most people don't do that well". Guess what, you aren't "most people". Most people couldnt achieve what the typical physician does. The better subsegment of the law and business trainees are your comparisons. Not the average.