Sounds like Medicine isn't worth it.

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true dat. There really aren't many jobs where every day you get to sit down with strangers you never met before and ask them if they have sex with "men, women or both", and whether they are stooling normally. :laugh:
I always liked doing the walkin clinic exam and you have to smell the creases and crevices of the human body.
 
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I think the OP has some valid concerns, for one thing it is clear that the prospects for future doctors are very different from the lifestyles enjoyed by 20th century doctors. Numerous polls have found that around 40% of doctors are not sure they would go into medicine if they had to do it all over again. Paperwork and administrative concerns are among the most common reasons that many doctors have become disillusioned. Those of us who want to go into medicine for the right reasons do it because we want that experience of devoting our lives to helping others through illness and injury. The problem is that increasingly doctors are being required to devote more time to non-clinical matters, while time with patients is being limited.
Of course there is some variation between specialties, as an internist my mom has seen her average daily patient volume expand from 12 to 16, her median appointment time shrink from 30 min to 15 min, and her average workday grow from 9 hours to 11 hours over her 30 year career. As a surgeon, my dad has been more immune to pressures to see more patients as surgeries cannot be rushed. In general, primary care has seen the brunt of the increased time pressure on physicians, and doctors who regret going into medicine are far more concentrated in primary care according to polls.
Wealth is also a terrible reason to go into medicine. Although US doctors have traditionally enjoyed incomes in the top 2%, incomes for many fields are falling relative to inflation and signs point to much more drastic reductions in income in the future. For most docs medicare is set to become the largest source of reimbursement in the near future, and at the current pace of growth medicare (and entitlement) costs are set to expand to eat up the entire US budget in about 50 years. Drastic reductions in cost and payments will be required to make this system sustainable, and with physician services accounting for 23% of the budget it is unwise to believe that doctors compensation wont be a big part of the cuts. Specialists will be hit the hardest, in the US the average specialist compensation is 600% of per capita GDP, compared with the OECD average of 300% of per capita GDP. The US economy in general is in for some serious trouble in the coming decades so standards of living in general are likely to decline.
But the great thing about being a doctor is that you will be a valuable member of society in any economy. Respect for doctors in general may be declining, but I believe any doctor who can demonstrate that their motivation is caring for others, not finances, will have no trouble endearing themselves with the community.
 
I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore. Apparently it sucks to be a doctor, and it's really not worth pursuing:

- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools
- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields
- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder
- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect
- Malpractice abuse
- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?
- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system

Sounds like it pretty much sucks, and it's bound to suck even more in the future, at least in the US--Am I missing something?

Naive pre-meds who think "helping people" and "saving lives" are all that matters, why would anybody go into medicine in this country?

You're totally right about medicine. And it's sad that so many smart, hardworking people are still clawing their ways to medical school.


These are all the reasons I went into medicine! Helping people is just a bonus.

LOL.... you're saying you went into medicine for: "- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools
- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields
- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder
- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect
- Malpractice abuse
- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?
- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system" ?

You funny, dawg.
 
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I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore. Apparently it sucks to be a doctor, and it's really not worth pursuing:

- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools
- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields
- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder
- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect
- Malpractice abuse
- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?
- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system

Sounds like it pretty much sucks, and it's bound to suck even more in the future, at least in the US--Am I missing something?

Naive pre-meds who think "helping people" and "saving lives" are all that matters, why would anybody go into medicine in this country?


I have two pieces of advice.

1- Don't get into medicine for the money.

2- Really, don't get into medicine for the money.

There's a reason physicians (and dentist) have such high rates of suicide, divorce, alcoholism and drug abuse. They are / were not meant for the profession and became miserable. These types could be weeded out of the profession entirely if the AdComs asked these three questions:

1- Do you want to become rich being a doctor?
2- How do you feel about the real estate market?
3- Do you like playing golf?

If the candidate says yes to 1 or 3, or shows any knowledge of the subject of 2, they should immediately be thrown out of the interview room.
 
Wasn't meant to be a troll thread, I was summarizing the things I'm seeing now that I've been more methodical about making this decision. When I was younger, it all seemed to simple, I wanted to be a doctor and that's all that mattered. Now I have a nice job, and I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to give medicine a shot.

I was serious, am I missing something? What's good about medicine as a career, other than a good salary? I think it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Furthermore, not every job is hell, I love my job, I love my life, I feel very lucky. Considering the emotional, physical, and financial costs, I think I'd actually be giving up a lot by going into medicine. I'm wondering what people like about it, and I don't think most premeds even realize the consequences of choosing this path.
 
Wasn't meant to be a troll thread, I was summarizing the things I'm seeing now that I've been more methodical about making this decision. When I was younger, it all seemed to simple, I wanted to be a doctor and that's all that mattered. Now I have a nice job, and I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to give medicine a shot.

I was serious, am I missing something? What's good about medicine as a career, other than a good salary? I think it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Furthermore, not every job is hell, I love my job, I love my life, I feel very lucky. Considering the emotional, physical, and financial costs, I think I'd actually be giving up a lot by going into medicine. I'm wondering what people like about it, and I don't think most premeds even realize the consequences of choosing this path.

So if you love your job and your life, why go for medicine when you're not sure about it to begin with?

Stick with what works for you.
 
I think the OP has some valid concerns, for one thing it is clear that the prospects for future doctors are very different from the lifestyles enjoyed by 20th century doctors. Numerous polls have found that around 40% of doctors are not sure they would go into medicine if they had to do it all over again. Paperwork and administrative concerns are among the most common reasons that many doctors have become disillusioned. Those of us who want to go into medicine for the right reasons do it because we want that experience of devoting our lives to helping others through illness and injury. The problem is that increasingly doctors are being required to devote more time to non-clinical matters, while time with patients is being limited.
Of course there is some variation between specialties, as an internist my mom has seen her average daily patient volume expand from 12 to 16, her median appointment time shrink from 30 min to 15 min, and her average workday grow from 9 hours to 11 hours over her 30 year career. As a surgeon, my dad has been more immune to pressures to see more patients as surgeries cannot be rushed. In general, primary care has seen the brunt of the increased time pressure on physicians, and doctors who regret going into medicine are far more concentrated in primary care according to polls.
Wealth is also a terrible reason to go into medicine. Although US doctors have traditionally enjoyed incomes in the top 2%, incomes for many fields are falling relative to inflation and signs point to much more drastic reductions in income in the future. For most docs medicare is set to become the largest source of reimbursement in the near future, and at the current pace of growth medicare (and entitlement) costs are set to expand to eat up the entire US budget in about 50 years. Drastic reductions in cost and payments will be required to make this system sustainable, and with physician services accounting for 23% of the budget it is unwise to believe that doctors compensation wont be a big part of the cuts. Specialists will be hit the hardest, in the US the average specialist compensation is 600% of per capita GDP, compared with the OECD average of 300% of per capita GDP. The US economy in general is in for some serious trouble in the coming decades so standards of living in general are likely to decline.
But the great thing about being a doctor is that you will be a valuable member of society in any economy. Respect for doctors in general may be declining, but I believe any doctor who can demonstrate that their motivation is caring for others, not finances, will have no trouble endearing themselves with the community.

I agree with this post. This thread is bashing on the OP, but I think there are valid concerns that should be discussed. We're all pre-med here, but it seems more and more that current doctors are unhappy with what is happening to the profession (I've read a couple of articles about some doctors encouraging their kids not to go into medicine, I'll dig them up if you guys are interested). The primary attack on the OP seems to be that he is going into medicine for the money - but there is a legitimate concern that very bright and motivated students from top colleges may choose a job on Wall Street rather than a career in medicine. Can they really be blamed for opting for a better life for their family and sacrificing other aspirations (medicine may be one of them)?
 
there is a legitimate concern that very bright and motivated students from top colleges may choose a job on Wall Street rather than a career in medicine.

If by bright you mean sociopathic. Medicine is better off without them. The brightest people I know are engineers; I have little respect for the people gambling at the rigged Wall Street casino, especially when they're using other people's money to do it.

If the past decade hasn't clued everyone in that the whiz-kid Big Money Boys are frauds, I don't know what will.
 
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(I've read a couple of articles about some doctors encouraging their kids not to go into medicine, I'll dig them up if you guys are interested). The primary attack on the OP seems to be that he is going into medicine for the money - but there is a legitimate concern that very bright and motivated students from top colleges may choose a job on Wall Street rather than a career in medicine. Can they really be blamed for opting for a better life for their family and sacrificing other aspirations (medicine may be one of them)?

I have anecdotal evidence that this is true, my mom has been supportive of me and yet constantly urges me to reconsider medicine based on her experience in primary care. She emailed me an article a few weeks ago about docs going bankrupt after struggling to run a practice and repay loan debt. There are still aspects of medicine she loves, but I think one of her problems is that she is so limited in time with patients that she doesn't feel like she can do a good enough job, especially patients come in with a laundry list of concerns. My dad on the other hand was forced into early retirement due to MS, but he has nothing but good things to say about his career in surgery. The conventional wisdom has been that surgery is much more stressful than primary care, but when I shadowed an FP doc I found his daily routine to be much more intense and relentless than the general surgeons I followed.

I agree with scarshapedstar that people who would rather work in the financial industry don't belong in medicine in the first place. There are docs who have more business and lifestyle focused goals in medicine, and these docs often seek to minimize caregiving time by taking on administrative and consulting roles. People who are driven by the "profit motive" are all to often willing to exploit others for personal gain.
 
I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore. Apparently it sucks to be a doctor, and it's really not worth pursuing:

- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools

Yes, so is for undergrad, so is for graduate school, so is all professional schools. And they're increasing. This is a feature of the US, not medical school

- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields

On the rise for some, on the decline for others. Depends on the specialty. Rads/Cards getting hit bad. Some other IM subspecialties increasing, EM, FP increasing or staying steady

- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder

Insurance companies make it hard. They don't pay you when you bill them. Lots of paperwork because of the billing codes agreed.

- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect

Get as much respect as any other professional. In my experience, you treat people well, they will too. You cant have a god complex around patients and expect them to treat you with respects

- Malpractice abuse

Agreed. Unfortunate circumstance of the nature of our society and laws governing malpractice

- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?

I used to think long hours didn't help learning. I used to think call was not necessary. Now I know better. I've learnt more on my 23rd hour of a call shift admitting patients and reading about that patient in the moment then ever from sitting infront of a textbook reading fresh after 8 hours of sleep. Call is the most important time to learn as a med student and rounds. Everything in between call and rounds should be optional

If you want to be healthy, you will be. Its not THAT bad. People in medicine act though if they worked 20 less hours they would exercise more yet are the same ones that refuse to take stairs on rounds and head for the pizza on lunch instead of salad.


- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system

Are the leaders that actually have a say in the system. Midlevels and nurse/staff dont have a say otherwise would be jobless

Sounds like it pretty much sucks, and it's bound to suck even more in the future, at least in the US--Am I missing something?

Could go either way. If doctors and other health professionals continue to do nothing, then it will get worse. If we organize, fight then things might get better. Many aspects to medicine, some might get worse, some better.

Naive pre-meds who think "helping people" and "saving lives" are all that matters, why would anybody go into medicine in this country?

Its not all that matters, but it does matter. It does matter to have a job thats meaningful. Thats why lots of non-trads who had well paying jobs go into medicine to get more meaning out of their work.
^
 
... As a surgeon, my dad has been more immune to pressures to see more patients as surgeries cannot be rushed...

surgeons are not immune to these pressures. While the actual surgery cannot be rushed, some places now use PAs to close up the patient at the end of a procedure so the surgeon can jump to the next case, which a PA has already prepped. By doing this you can squeeze in more cases per day. And there's an incentive to do more, shorter, cases per day instead of the big long ones you find most interesting and were probably the reason you became a surgeon. And it's the preop and postop dealings with patients, not a small part of every surgeons day, that gets similarly abbreviated. No one is immune.
 
I have two pieces of advice.

1- Don't get into medicine for the money.

2- Really, don't get into medicine for the money.

There's a reason physicians (and dentist) have such high rates of suicide, divorce, alcoholism and drug abuse. They are / were not meant for the profession and became miserable. These types could be weeded out of the profession entirely if the AdComs asked these three questions:

1- Do you want to become rich being a doctor?
2- How do you feel about the real estate market?
3- Do you like playing golf?

If the candidate says yes to 1 or 3, or shows any knowledge of the subject of 2, they should immediately be thrown out of the interview room.

I agree that going into medicine for financial reasons is *****ic, and becoming moreso every day. Its hard to weed out for this though because too many interviewees will try to give the answer the interviewer wants.
 
It's all relative. Going to medical school and becoming a doctor may sound bad just by itself, but compared to other science-oriented professions, it's not as terrible as it sounds. From what I understand of the Ph.D. path, it's not much better on their end.
 
I think the OP has some valid concerns, for one thing it is clear that the prospects for future doctors are very different from the lifestyles enjoyed by 20th century doctors. Numerous polls have found that around 40% of doctors are not sure they would go into medicine if they had to do it all over again. Paperwork and administrative concerns are among the most common reasons that many doctors have become disillusioned. Those of us who want to go into medicine for the right reasons do it because we want that experience of devoting our lives to helping others through illness and injury. The problem is that increasingly doctors are being required to devote more time to non-clinical matters, while time with patients is being limited.
Of course there is some variation between specialties, as an internist my mom has seen her average daily patient volume expand from 12 to 16, her median appointment time shrink from 30 min to 15 min, and her average workday grow from 9 hours to 11 hours over her 30 year career. As a surgeon, my dad has been more immune to pressures to see more patients as surgeries cannot be rushed. In general, primary care has seen the brunt of the increased time pressure on physicians, and doctors who regret going into medicine are far more concentrated in primary care according to polls.
Wealth is also a terrible reason to go into medicine. Although US doctors have traditionally enjoyed incomes in the top 2%, incomes for many fields are falling relative to inflation and signs point to much more drastic reductions in income in the future. For most docs medicare is set to become the largest source of reimbursement in the near future, and at the current pace of growth medicare (and entitlement) costs are set to expand to eat up the entire US budget in about 50 years. Drastic reductions in cost and payments will be required to make this system sustainable, and with physician services accounting for 23% of the budget it is unwise to believe that doctors compensation wont be a big part of the cuts. Specialists will be hit the hardest, in the US the average specialist compensation is 600% of per capita GDP, compared with the OECD average of 300% of per capita GDP. The US economy in general is in for some serious trouble in the coming decades so standards of living in general are likely to decline.
But the great thing about being a doctor is that you will be a valuable member of society in any economy. Respect for doctors in general may be declining, but I believe any doctor who can demonstrate that their motivation is caring for others, not finances, will have no trouble endearing themselves with the community.

How does your mom only see 16 patients in 11 hours? Most internests I have seen are around 25-35 in 8-9 hours. At about 15 minutes per appointment that is 4 hours of patient care a day in an ideal world (I know that is never the case). I pretty much agree with you though, its great that you have a realistic idea of medicine.
 
It's all relative. Going to medical school and becoming a doctor may sound bad just by itself, but compared to other science-oriented professions, it's not as terrible as it sounds. From what I understand of the Ph.D. path, it's not much better on their end.

This. If I hadn't made it in to medical school, that's where I would be. However I know many Ph.D students and they're even more disillusioned than premeds. I love science but these days you can buy used and set up your own basement molecular biology lab for way less than the price of a Kia :)
 
Trust me.. If you want to find an easy job in medicine you can.

You can be a hospitalist, work 14 days a month, make $250,000 doing fairly easy work. It might be mundane work but it is not difficult and really is not that stressful. Sick people go to the ICU. You don't have to worry about procedural complications. You don't have to pull your hair out sitting with someone in clinic. Any headscratchers get consulted out.

I can't imagine another profession with guaranteed >200K income with a similar set up.
I'm sure there are cushy hospitalist gigs out there, but nobody I know has one. I've done a bunch of hospitalist moonlighting at three different institutions now, and it's always been work. Hard, stressful, legitimate work. Most of these jobs are "only" 14 days a month because no normal human being could hang for any longer than that.

If the OP is a troll, then a big chunk of physicians, including myself, think "troll thoughts" on daily basis.
 
Wasn't meant to be a troll thread, I was summarizing the things I'm seeing now that I've been more methodical about making this decision. When I was younger, it all seemed to simple, I wanted to be a doctor and that's all that mattered. Now I have a nice job, and I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to give medicine a shot.

I was serious, am I missing something? What's good about medicine as a career, other than a good salary? I think it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Furthermore, not every job is hell, I love my job, I love my life, I feel very lucky. Considering the emotional, physical, and financial costs, I think I'd actually be giving up a lot by going into medicine. I'm wondering what people like about it, and I don't think most premeds even realize the consequences of choosing this path.

Then don't go into it! All the concerns you raise are valid are actually scare me :scared: . Truth is, as a naive pre-med, I can't see myself doing much else. I have considered nursing, but I would always be jealous of the doctor. I thought of going into teaching cause I enjoy it, however I just don't find it as rewarding as healthcare is to me. Maybe that will change in 10 years and I'll be screwed, but such is life. No risk no reward.

Oh, and as for JESSFALLING, even hobo's are regulated by the government. Kind of sad, but they are told where they can be homeless and not. "Please hide yourself from society."
 
It all depends on their clinic schedule for the day. Some doctors will have a full schedule going from 8am until 4:30 pm (depends on when the last patient is scheduled) and have a patient scheduled for every 15 minutes. Other days their clinic schedule will only be half full. For those days they are busy doing other things like readings (images, labs, etc), paper work, etc.

Most doctors don't go running around with a patient scheduled every 15 minutes their entire career. Hell, you are more likely NOT to have a full schedule than having a full schedule.
Im aware that doctors have other responsibilities, but if it takes you 5-7 hours a day to review labs, catch up on calls, hassle for pre-authorizations, etc, you are doing something terribly wrong. The fm doc i did my rotation with saw 40 a day. The outpatient IM rotated with 60-90 a day (he used 3 nps and us med students to get h&p, then popped in for like 45 seconds). Both were 8-10 hours a day and took 1 day off a week to catch up on paperwork etc.
 
How does your mom only see 16 patients in 11 hours? Most internests I have seen are around 25-35 in 8-9 hours. At about 15 minutes per appointment that is 4 hours of patient care a day in an ideal world (I know that is never the case). I pretty much agree with you though, its great that you have a realistic idea of medicine.

Maybe she sees more patients, I thought that was the number she gave me. She is an attending for USUHS so she oversees residents too, and she has a lot of older more complicated patients, as her pt population is all military retirees. She does have several longer appointments per day but she said she is forced to tell many patients to focus on one issue they want to address most and schedule another appt for the other issues. She also has about 2 hours of administrative and data entry work to catch up on at the end of every day, and she eats lunch at her desk so she can keep working over the lunch hour.

A lot of doctors in the US are dissatisfied with their job, does anyone know of any polls on job satisfaction among docs in other countries like Canada, Japan etc?
 
What, exactly, is this magical alternative? EVERY career is suffering.

Since you asked... The first step would be to repeal ObamaCare because it is essentially the same model as the one prior, letting insurances continue miserly with their reimbursements and unethical habits. Anyone who tells you that Obamacare will save the American healthcare system is a liar. Call them out.
Secondly, adopt a single-payer system like the more 'modern' countries of the world. Pay your taxes, and with it allow the govn't to pay for healthcare.
Right and left agree that Obamacare is not the answer to our healthcare problem. It is a rushed program. Its broken. Analogous to TARP, essentially it does nothing productive and will lead to great inefficency down the road. Vote for Ron Paul. A true libertarian.
 
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I guess it's nice not being so young and naive anymore. Apparently it sucks to be a doctor, and it's really not worth pursuing:

- Tuition is insane, even at mediocre schools
- Salaries/compensation is on the decline in many fields
- Lots of insurance paperwork and administrative overhead
- Government regulation of the profession and the costs is likely to make it harder
- In many specialties, doctors don't get neither gratitude nor respect
- Malpractice abuse
- Long hours in school and potentially in practice. Since when does exhaustion a) enhance learning abilities 2) increase cognitive function 3) keep you healthy?
- Don't really get to fix the problems with the system

Sounds like it pretty much sucks, and it's bound to suck even more in the future, at least in the US--Am I missing something?

Naive pre-meds who think "helping people" and "saving lives" are all that matters, why would anybody go into medicine in this country?

cool story, bro

ginger-kid-didnt-read.gif
 
In Soviet Russia (where I'm from) the docs may not have had to deal with malpractice or med school loans, but their hours were very long, they did house visits all day in tall buildings with no elevators, and their pay was a pittance (my parents tell me janitors earned more). When they graduated medical school, instead of choosing where to practice or have a residency, they were often thrown into the middle of butt **** nowhere to get experience, where they were forced to work for years, and were the only doctor available to the surrounding villages - where they made house calls, and treat anything, and everything that came up. They went into the field for noble reasons, and were willing to take on the hardships and sacrifices their career would bring.
 
In Soviet Russia (where I'm from) the docs may not have had to deal with malpractice or med school loans, but their hours were very long, they did house visits all day in tall buildings with no elevators, and their pay was a pittance (my parents tell me janitors earned more). When they graduated medical school, instead of choosing where to practice or have a residency, they were often thrown into the middle of butt **** nowhere to get experience, where they were forced to work for years, and were the only doctor available to the surrounding villages - where they made house calls, and treat anything, and everything that came up. They went into the field for noble reasons, and were willing to take on the hardships and sacrifices their career would bring.

Must be why they're freaking badass.

http://www.bmj.com/content/339/bmj.b4965 (or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Rogozov if you don't have access through your university to bmj)
 
I read an article about immigrants that came to the US with pennies, gained citizenship, and are now multimillionaire business owners. Being a penniless immigrant is way better than going into medicine.

- The finance guys. Okay, but who wants to do that all day? Certainly not me. My aunt is a bigwig on wall street making millions and she's not very happy. She also works much more than the doctors I've shadowed

- The rich lawyer. Good for him, too bad most lawyers really don't make that much. Not to mention the ethical dilemma for many of them.

I can go on, but you get it.
 
Hospitalist is not an easy job at all.

Yeah, I'd say only on boards like this do hospitalists get glamorized. Yes the hours are decent, and yes you can probably jump into a $150k (usually not $200k plus) job right after a three year IM residency. But its a dead end, usually very short term, job, and you basically get crapped on by everyone. You get assigned all the "non-teaching" (ie boring) cases, and are talked down to by a lot of people. you are basically doing shift work covering patients who are frequently longterm "rocks", not seeing the interesting cool stuff that the teaching attendings get excited about and perhaps are the reasons people go into IM. Thus most of the people I know only do this for a year or two to pay some bills before doing something else.
 
I read an article about immigrants that came to the US with pennies, gained citizenship, and are now multimillionaire business owners. Being a penniless immigrant is way better than going into medicine.

- ... Good for him, too bad most lawyers really don't make that much. Not to mention the ethical dilemma for many of them.

I can go on, but you get it.

Atul Gawande, mentioned above, had a good article a while back where he suggested it was foolish to ever compare a physician to the "average" person in another field, because the person who achieved in medicine was the kind of uber smart, hardest working type individual you only find in the upper echelons of pretty much any field. Someone who can achieve in medicine could achieve in numerous other fields, not be average. So saying eg "most lawyers really don't make that much" is off the mark -- the question is how the lawyers with the grades and work ethic to get through medicine and residency do, which is a much more selective group, who generally do fine. Having straddled both careers, I tend to agree. My med school classmates would have easily outshined the "average" of my law school classmates, and the residents I've worked with have a better work ethic and work hard -play hard attitude than most of my fellow colleagues in law. So to compare apples to apples, you pretty much have to compare med students to the better law graduates, not the "average", or "most lawyers". You guys have to realize that if you have the mettle to get into med school, you have a lot of choices in life. If you devote the same kind of effort to law or business that you devote to getting into and through med school and residency, you probably do quite well in any field. So it really is about what you want to do. Never foolishly talk yourself out of things by saying, "well most people don't do that well". Guess what, you aren't "most people". Most people couldnt achieve what the typical physician does. The better subsegment of the law and business trainees are your comparisons. Not the average.
 
Atul Gawande, mentioned above, had a good article a while back where he suggested it was foolish to ever compare a physician to the "average" person in another field, because the person who achieved in medicine was the kind of uber smart, hardest working type individual you only find in the upper echelons of pretty much any field. Someone who can achieve in medicine could achieve in numerous other fields, not be average. So saying eg "most lawyers really don't make that much" is off the mark -- the question is how the lawyers with the grades and work ethic to get through medicine and residency do, which is a much more selective group, who generally do fine. Having straddled both careers, I tend to agree. My med school classmates would have easily outshined the "average" of my law school classmates, and the residents I've worked with have a better work ethic and work hard -play hard attitude than most of my fellow colleagues in law. So to compare apples to apples, you pretty much have to compare med students to the better law graduates, not the "average", or "most lawyers". You guys have to realize that if you have the mettle to get into med school, you have a lot of choices in life. If you devote the same kind of effort to law or business that you devote to getting into and through med school and residency, you probably do quite well in any field. So it really is about what you want to do. Never foolishly talk yourself out of things by saying, "well most people don't do that well". Guess what, you aren't "most people". Most people couldnt achieve what the typical physician does. The better subsegment of the law and business trainees are your comparisons. Not the average.

:thumbup: Well said.

Personality, drive and hunger are better determinants of success than what field you decide to go in to. Even when I was a schoolteacher I think I put in twice as many hours as most of my colleagues. I didn't do it because I got paid more (being salaried meant we were all paid the same), I did it because that's just the type of guy I am. In my previous career I was seen as a weirdo workaholic who would probably shoot through the administrative ranks. I approach medicine with the same amount of drive--I wake up at the ass crack of dawn to exercise a little, brush up on some points my preceptor told me we were going to discuss and head off to work. After an 8hr-16hr day (depending on if I'm family med or surgery), I come home, read, maybe get a chance to dick around for a bit and crash. I'm medicine, I'm average at best and a periodic slacker at worst.
 
Doctors are getting divorced left, right and center. Medicine is no longer what it used to be.

I have no clue why people keep bringing this up. The whole population is getting more divorces not just doctors. They do have to work longer hours but that's not the main problem.

The reason people are getting divorced is because people have forgotten that marriage is about what you can do for your partner. Not what you can get out of it yourself like a selfish American pig. I love America but the focus is too much on the individual and not enough on the community
 
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Since you asked... The first step would be to repeal ObamaCare because it is essentially the same model as the one prior, letting insurances continue miserly with their reimbursements and unethical habits. Anyone who tells you that Obamacare will save the American healthcare system is a liar. Call them out.
Secondly, adopt a single-payer system like the more 'modern' countries of the world. Pay your taxes, and with it allow the govn't to pay for healthcare.
Right and left agree that Obamacare is not the answer to our healthcare problem. It is a rushed program. Its broken. Analogous to TARP, essentially it does nothing productive and will lead to great inefficency down the road. Vote for Ron Paul. A true libertarian.

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I don't know what to say other than medicine isn't the career choice for everyone. You really have to enjoy it for all the other things you mentioned to be worth it. It's not the perfect career choice and it has its problems but there aren't many careers out there that don't.
 
:cool:
Atul Gawande, mentioned above, had a good article a while back where he suggested it was foolish to ever compare a physician to the "average" person in another field, because the person who achieved in medicine was the kind of uber smart, hardest working type individual you only find in the upper echelons of pretty much any field. Someone who can achieve in medicine could achieve in numerous other fields, not be average. So saying eg "most lawyers really don't make that much" is off the mark -- the question is how the lawyers with the grades and work ethic to get through medicine and residency do, which is a much more selective group, who generally do fine. Having straddled both careers, I tend to agree. My med school classmates would have easily outshined the "average" of my law school classmates, and the residents I've worked with have a better work ethic and work hard -play hard attitude than most of my fellow colleagues in law. So to compare apples to apples, you pretty much have to compare med students to the better law graduates, not the "average", or "most lawyers". You guys have to realize that if you have the mettle to get into med school, you have a lot of choices in life. If you devote the same kind of effort to law or business that you devote to getting into and through med school and residency, you probably do quite well in any field. So it really is about what you want to do. Never foolishly talk yourself out of things by saying, "well most people don't do that well". Guess what, you aren't "most people". Most people couldnt achieve what the typical physician does. The better subsegment of the law and business trainees are your comparisons. Not the average.

:cool:
 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kJF90dd0e0[/YOUTUBE]

I don't really know much about Ron Paul but this commercial makes me laugh. I have heard he's kind of insane though.
 
Atul Gawande, mentioned above, had a good article a while back where he suggested it was foolish to ever compare a physician to the "average" person in another field, because the person who achieved in medicine was the kind of uber smart, hardest working type individual you only find in the upper echelons of pretty much any field. Someone who can achieve in medicine could achieve in numerous other fields, not be average. So saying eg "most lawyers really don't make that much" is off the mark -- the question is how the lawyers with the grades and work ethic to get through medicine and residency do, which is a much more selective group, who generally do fine. Having straddled both careers, I tend to agree. My med school classmates would have easily outshined the "average" of my law school classmates, and the residents I've worked with have a better work ethic and work hard -play hard attitude than most of my fellow colleagues in law. So to compare apples to apples, you pretty much have to compare med students to the better law graduates, not the "average", or "most lawyers". You guys have to realize that if you have the mettle to get into med school, you have a lot of choices in life. If you devote the same kind of effort to law or business that you devote to getting into and through med school and residency, you probably do quite well in any field. So it really is about what you want to do. Never foolishly talk yourself out of things by saying, "well most people don't do that well". Guess what, you aren't "most people". Most people couldnt achieve what the typical physician does. The better subsegment of the law and business trainees are your comparisons. Not the average.

You bring up an interesting point, but I'm not completely convinced you're correct. For instance, law schools are pumping out lawyers to the point where sheer availability undermines one's abilities. Area of law is critical as well. How much do prosecutors make? Not much.
 
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