All Branch Topic (ABT) Special Pay restructuring in 2017

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Either way, nobody gets their bonus until something changes. Now I think it's funny, because I'm not looking for the October bonus. But I'm a fickle guy.
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Fair enough, I think it's funny that these guys have no problem with delaying pay for months on end which some of us need, but if they're your patient and you don't give them the dilaudid push they request in under 5 minutes they have no problem calling their Congressman.
 
So I skimmed the updates since I last checked this thread, and from what I can tell the gist is that nobody knows what the hell is going on? Until someone does know, nobody is getting money in October?
 
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usma05 said:
Fair enough, I think it's funny that these guys have no problem with delaying pay for months on end which some of us need, but if they're your patient and you don't give them the dilaudid push they request in under 5 minutes they have no problem calling their Congressman.
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True dat
 
I emailed Mr Buss and he said he is hoping for info in the next few weeks to get pushed out. Fingers crossed...I feel for folks who were relying on that bonus in October. They need to release the info so people can plan appropriately.
 
This is totally ridiculous, and right in line with what I would expect from the DoD. I was being facetious above, in case that wasn't obvious.
 
On my end, I just graduated residency and they told me my ISP was going to be late and not show up in Oct. due to the new system. This is at Madigan
 
It's not late. You'll get it exactly when the military wants to pay it. That's right on time, every time.
 
I also just realized this may mean I can't max my tsp this year which I usually did with a large chunk of this bonus and also results in some downstream tax implications as well, especially if it things don't get sorted out before the end of the tax year. Really hoping we get some info ASAP. This is ridiculous.

I don't understand why they wouldn't have announced it is year with implementation for next year's bonus cycle so people could plan accordingly with details out well in advance. I know, I know...what do I expect from the .gov?!
 
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I was told today by our special pay secretary that for some the isp with the new plan will go down. But relax and get your online training done!
 
Well if you read the actual law as written (I think someone posted it above) it says the new "IP" is not to exceed 30k unless in a critical wartime specialty. Since IP is supposed to combine asp, vsp, and ISP, and many surgical specialties have an October bonus of over 30k, I can't see how this isn't going to be a pay cut for some folks unless they really increase BCP which would be a second f-you to them since it takes longer for specialties with oral boards to get BC.

Hard to believe they could try to reduce pay for already grossly underpaid docs. I'm hoping I'm wrong and pay stays the same or increases. I just cannot believe they are not giving more advance notice prior to implementing this, or at a minimum, more detail.
 
Ah, you have fallen under the false impression that the military gives a $#!T. Careers, pay, retention - none of this matters. They'll squeeze every ounce of milk from the milmed stone until it crumbles, and then they'll get an influx of your tax money to rebuild. Recruiting is never a problem when you can say anything you want without repercussions.
 
I know you're right about all of that, but it still shocks me a bit...I know, I know...so young and naive ;) I also realize we still don't know details but it stings a bit to think they so devalue what we do/don't give a s!$t about people they've invested a decade of time and money into. I have a friend who loves the Army (an abnormal amount that is admirable while also hard to understand at points!) and plans to retire who was picked up for July '18 2 year surgical fellowship who will drop her papers ASAP if they do anything to decrease pay. I imagine there would be many others who would consider the same, but perhaps that's the goal here?? If my ADSO was done, I would likely do the same just on principle.
 
well, first off I should say that no matter how little I trust MEDCOM (at least Army Medicine), I would put money on the pay changes being not good, but not as bad as the worst case scenarios that are being thrown around. That's usually the case - changes come down the pipe, no one really understands them until well after they're implemented, and therefore people start looking for the sky to fall - but they do that because little pieces of the sky are dropping all the time. Just because it never completely comes down doesn't mean a little bit of cynicism isn't warranted.

The Army is doing a study currently, looking at how likely people are to stay in and why. My understanding (from a tertiary source) is that the results do not look good for retention. Say what you will about selection bias, but that is also my anecdotal impression even from people who for years have had every intention of staying in.

I've also thought about the possibility of a forced exodus - turning up the heat until the kitchen clears out. That's possible. It's also actually worse than if the low morale were entirely unintentional. If you want people out, just let them leave. The alternative is just punitive and sadistic.
 
HighPriest said:
well, first off I should say that no matter how little I trust MEDCOM (at least Army Medicine), I would put money on the pay changes being not good, but not as bad as the worst case scenarios that are being thrown around. That's usually the case - changes come down the pipe, no one really understands them until well after they're implemented, and therefore people start looking for the sky to fall - but they do that because little pieces of the sky are dropping all the time. Just because it never completely comes down doesn't mean a little bit of cynicism isn't warranted.

The Army is doing a study currently, looking at how likely people are to stay in and why. My understanding (from a tertiary source) is that the results do not look good for retention. Say what you will about selection bias, but that is also my anecdotal impression even from people who for years have had every intention of staying in.

I've also thought about the possibility of a forced exodus - turning up the heat until the kitchen clears out. That's possible. It's also actually worse than if the low morale were entirely unintentional. If you want people out, just let them leave. The alternative is just punitive and sadistic.
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Why is the Army currently doing a study on attrition? It has known for YEARS that the majority of docs GTFO as soon as possible. A study isn't really necessary to understand why. Besides low pay, unreasonable competing and conflicting demands, deployments, and competing priorities to name a few, what else could there possibly be? Surely the inexplicable adoption of a, "business model" of healthcare delivery that is already driving physicians away in the civilian sector won't affect anything.

It's certainly easy to dismiss the, "special pays probably are decreasing" cries as irrational, but it also would not surprise me; I'm becoming more and more convinced that the military wants to get out of the healthcare business -- to include GME -- and shift towards a complete reliance on GS and contract providers and NET resources.

Not that it will make any difference, but if my annual gross drops, I will be beyond livid. Would have been nice to know it was coming before I bought a ****** house.
 
aau22 said:
Well if you read the actual law as written (I think someone posted it above) it says the new "IP" is not to exceed 30k unless in a critical wartime specialty. Since IP is supposed to combine asp, vsp, and ISP, and many surgical specialties have an October bonus of over 30k, I can't see how this isn't going to be a pay cut for some folks unless they really increase BCP which would be a second f-you to them since it takes longer for specialties with oral boards to get BC.

Hard to believe they could try to reduce pay for already grossly underpaid docs. I'm hoping I'm wrong and pay stays the same or increases. I just cannot believe they are not giving more advance notice prior to implementing this, or at a minimum, more detail.
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It would be a pay cut to almost everyone. ASP + VSP for 12 months is $27k gross. If the cap is $30k, almost everyone gets ISP screwed. I would lose $17,000.
 
Right...and screwed by a lot. Even for the lowest isp of 20, you're looking at 17k lost. For surgeons, more like 25-30. I know our consultant had said they asked for proposals for why certain ISPs should be raised based on specialty so I'm holding out some hope this may be a surprise in a good way but unless they jack up BCP in a very big way, if they follow the way the proposed change is written into the ndaa, we will be getting hosed. I just want them to put out info so we can plan accordingly.
 
I was just notified by my HR person (who is amazing) that we can sign for our ISP and she thinks it is staying the same for October!
 
aau22 said:
I was just notified by my HR person (who is amazing) that we can sign for our ISP and she thinks it is staying the same for October!
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I just talked to my lady as well and she said that they can now initiate them. She doesn't see any changes.
 
I'll believe nothing until I see it in ink, and I'll be surprised by nothing. My guess is that overall annual pay won't change much, if anything.

Will probably an inflation pay cut, no different than any of the last 20 years.
 
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pgg said:
I'll believe nothing until I see it in ink, and I'll be surprised by nothing. My guess is that overall annual pay won't change much, if anything.

Will probably an inflation pay cut, no different than any of the last 20 years.
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Actually just saw an email from Mr Buss stating that physician contracts are available to enact for 1Oct16. The interesting part was that it also said specifically that contracts for other Corps would not be available for the 1 Oct start until the new CSP HPO contract elements were available. So it appears that the original idea of rollout for FY17 with DC/NC/MSC is holding. And then maybe MC FY18?
 
I read the email again, and everything is confusing. With the above context in mind, it appears as though we will be getting the usual OCT bonuses with no changes ... for now.
 
HooahDOc said:
Why is the Army currently doing a study on attrition? It has known for YEARS that the majority of docs GTFO as soon as possible. A study isn't really necessary to understand why. Besides low pay, unreasonable competing and conflicting demands, deployments, and competing priorities to name a few, what else could there possibly be? Surely the inexplicable adoption of a, "business model" of healthcare delivery that is already driving physicians away in the civilian sector won't affect anything.

It's certainly easy to dismiss the, "special pays probably are decreasing" cries as irrational, but it also would not surprise me; I'm becoming more and more convinced that the military wants to get out of the healthcare business -- to include GME -- and shift towards a complete reliance on GS and contract providers and NET resources.

Not that it will make any difference, but if my annual gross drops, I will be beyond livid. Would have been nice to know it was coming before I bought a ****** house.
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Are you really asking why the Army is doing a redundant and unnecessary study that will ultimately give them no new information upon which they won't act anyway? That's kind of the Army standard.

And I do think it's likely pay will decrease. I just don't think it'll be catastrophic (at least not much more so that the pay currently is). It's not downplaying how $&@ed up that is, I just mean it's always somewhere between the worst case scenario and the most likely scenario.
 
  1. Just hadthis email passed onto me from an Air Force buddy....someone correct me if I'm wrong but they're making IP 20k for all and BCP 500/month...what a joke. The lowest ISP ALONE was 20k...
 

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aau22 said:
  1. Just hadthis email passed onto me from an Air Force buddy....someone correct me if I'm wrong but they're making IP 20k for all and BCP 500/month...what a joke. The lowest ISP ALONE was 20k...
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There is no mention of any specialty specific bonuses?! I think the folks most likely to get screwed are the higher value October bonus docs...
 
So VSP + ASP = 20k? and BCP = 6k 26k
As a <6years VSP 5k, ASP 15k, BCP 2.5k which was 22.5k.
Sounds super awesome, until you realize they just magically made ISP disappear which was like 20k at least per specialty! This can't be legit?!?

I really like my job in flight med, but between this and BOMC, not ejecting back to civilian life for twice the cash and living where we want gets really hard to justify to the wife.
 
You're missing some slides but it's a pay cut. The question is how much. I found the fact that they devote a slide to flag officer pay really offensive. Don't worry general, you'll still be fine. We're just ****ing the workerbee.

This whole thread is why I quit. They can change the deal at any time. Including decreeing that you MUST renegotiate your MSP. If you've read this, the 2017 NDAA, the battalion surgeon thread, and the rest...and you still choose HPSP or USUHS, it's your own fault when you get ****ed.
 
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I have shared this with colleagues, and they are not pleased. Unless ISP shows up in some other way that isn't covered by these slides, all of us are basically taking a $20,000 or more per year pay cut. I'm really hoping this isn't the case, but it sure looks like it. The one slide clearly shows VSP, ASP, and ISP all being included into CSP. However, the following slide comparing the Legacy and CSP values does not include ISP in the Legacy column. But, the CSP amount is very clearly $20,000.

If the worst case scenario is true and we are all taking a huge pay cut next fiscal year, wait and see how much people give a crap about RVUs.

CORRECTED:

I just noticed the fine print on the next to last slide. We will sign ISP as usual for October, then on 1 JUL 17 when we would have signed the ASP contract, we will then sign the new CSP stuff; the remaining months of the ISP will be recouped ($5,000) and CSP payments will then begin. The amount is clearly listed as $3,583/mo, or around $43,000 a year.

Not sure why ISP suddenly vanished on the presentation, but clearly it gets included in the CSP IP somewhere.
 
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HooahDOc said:
I have shared this with colleagues, and they are not pleased. Unless ISP shows up in some other way that isn't covered by these slides, all of us are basically taking a $20,000 or more per year pay cut. I'm really hoping this isn't the case, but it sure looks like it. The one slide clearly shows VSP, ASP, and ISP all being included into CSP. However, the following slide comparing the Legacy and CSP values does not include ISP in the Legacy column. But, the CSP amount is very clearly $20,000.

If the worst case scenario is true and we are all taking a huge pay cut next fiscal year, wait and see how much people give a crap about RVUs.

CORRECTED:

I just noticed the fine print on the next to last slide. We will sign ISP as usual for October, then on 1 JUL 17 when we would have signed the ASP contract, we will then sign the new CSP stuff; the remaining months of the ISP will be recouped ($5,000) and CSP payments will then begin. The amount is clearly listed as $3,583/mo, or around $43,000 a year.

Not sure why ISP suddenly vanished on the presentation, but clearly it gets included in the CSP IP somewhere.
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So back to square one. Best case I get ISP the last year when I didn't expect to and worst case I don't get it my second to last year when I did expect to.
 
ISP *may* be $5,000 less than your usual amount because of what I mentioned above. My special pay person is on leave, so I can't actually do anything right now.
 
@pgg: thats the problem really. The internal communication process is so bad. This is happening right now and their slide show says something about "briefings will be general until we actually know what the **** is going on" (quotation approximate). These changes stem from a NDAA from last decade. They had time to figure it out.

You can't **** with people's pay and expect them to stay chill/philosophical about it. Its their fault that people are wringing their hands. You know how it goes and there are definitely people who find that the angst eats at them more than others. A day in the life: Am I on the list to deploy...I heard I was on the list...no wait, I heard I'm not on the list...oh sh1t, there's an email...whew, I'm off the list...wait isn't she pregnant...am I on the list...Rinse, repeat.
 
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Fair enough, I don't disagree.

The only thing that seems for sure at this point is that late-career people who aren't board certified will get paid less. And to be honest I'm basically OK with that.

Now if they come back and somehow alter the deal on the MSP contract I signed 29 days ago, right before I started fellowship, that's something I won't be so mellow about. I know that ISP and ASP are year-to-year deals, and VSP/BCP are month-to-month deals, and that those deals can change any time. But the whole point of a MSP contract is that it's a contract for 2-4 years. I don't see how that would be legal.
 
@pgg, totally agree. The senior non-BC docs are not the population we need to worry about. I would imagine that the forced renegotiation of MSP agreements is unlikely and I suspect, even if they tried, that a claim through BNCR would force them to pay you what they owe you.
 
Wow. Just wow. Even I am shocked that the military would do this to people. Forced brigade surgeon tours, computer-training to death, no admin support in clinic, mandatory PCSing for no other reason than to just move someone because they have been somewhere "too long" and now decreasing (potentially) an already embarrassing compensation package for their own physicians.

No better time to get out than now. I am absolutely dumbfounded why anyone in their right state of mind would sign on for HPSP/USUHS or extend his/her ADSO knowing the current climate. I agree with Gastrapathy - you deserve what you get if you do this. The retirement carrot isn't worth the complete lack of respect.

The ship is going down and the captain/crew are firing the torpedos.
 
Before everyone flips out (we'll probably too late for that) all of the slides I have seen (and been briefed on twice now) that have actual numbers show a net change in pay that is essentially peanuts for the vast majority of people. We are talking 40 bucks less a month for a few years. Does it suck to see any money go away, yes but at the same time it means I don't have to wait on an annual notice that never comes out on time and I don't have to worry about whether some seaman decided to actually submit my paperwork.

The briefings I've seen are obviously Navy, but they likely aren't going to be different. The only caveat we were given is that nothing is for sure until the DOD level instruction is completed which was still in the chop chain.

Nothing is pointing towards a massive pay cut.


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