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Specialization Rate of Ivy vs. State Schools

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by DrillerC, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    So in those "where should I go?" threads some people raised the question: just how much higher is ivy school's specialization rate than that of a state school's? And would it be worth it to go? I would like to know you guys' take on this.

    Personally, I think that if one isn't looking to specialize, one's money would be best served at a cheaper alternative. The advantages are real. One would be in way less debt, living closer to home, and the plan of opening that dream private practice can start earlier. One would also probably get more clinical training.

    This is also what I was told at my Columbia interview. My interviewer told me, rather emphatically I might add, that if I just want to become a skilled clinician or GP, I should not come here.

    Now let's assume that I do want to specialize (I don't have an earthly clue right now. Next couple of days will be spent in turmoil). Columbia touts 95+ specialization rate, but we all know that it kind of beefed that number up with GPR and AEGD, so let's just focus on the "money makers" if you will. In 2006, there were 14 OMFS, 5 Pedo, 1 Perio, 3 Endo, 4 Pros, and 8 Ortho. That's 35 students out of class of 75, which is about 47%. These numbers are obtained from the broceure given during my interview.

    I don't have the figures for "regular" state schools, but I have heard figures ranging from 5 to 15%, which is substantially lower than that of an Ivy's. If I am mistaken, please do let me know.

    Now of course that begs the question is the high specialization rate in the Ivys due to the school's reputation and focus, or the type of students that they recruit (in which case they will specialize anywhere they go)? I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, leaning more toward the students' side.

    But I don't think a name recognition should be discounted as superfluous. For example, Columbia gets away with using H/P/F.

    As an aside I really like that system as I really hate to compete for that extra point or that higher ranking ("Can I get some points back for this question?" Oh dear Lord stop the pre-meds). I'd go there just because of that lol.

    So back to the original question. Is it worth it to put in the extra investment (20~40K more in expense, living far away from home, slower start up time) to go to an Ivy's like Columbia (it's true, their stuff is pretty crappy) for that 30%+ increase in chance to specialize?
     
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  3. DrReo

    DrReo "Thread Necromancer"
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    Sounds like some good cost efficient economics to me.:thumbup: There was a huge debate about this. Remember, specialization rates vary class-to-class!
     
  4. UCSF2012

    UCSF2012 Tooth Rehab Student
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    I'm going to guess that if you want oral surgery, it could be your advantage to go to a medical school-based dental school. There could be a reason why there's a sheer volume of OMFS students from Columbia.
     
  5. brushhh

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    i think it's totally upto your goal and priority. but i understand that making the decision is tough.
     
  6. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    I have a question for the OP. If I want to go in to Perio, and only 1 person out of 75 in Columbia's 2006 class got into Perio, that means I shouldn't go there right? That means I'll only have a 1.33% chance of getting in to Perio.
     
  7. swati10

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    all 75 don't apply right??
     
  8. cobalt31

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    armorshell was being sarcastic... obviously all 75 don't apply...

    he is re-emphasizing the point not to obsess over the # of students that go into a specialty from a particular school.
     
  9. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    That's right and good call to not go there ;)

    I mean of course these are just numbers and they vary yearly, but if perio isn't the focus of that said school and that's what you want to do, doesn't it make sense to choose a different school where the trend is more favorable?

    I do understand dental school is what you make of it. But taking the path of least resistance can't hurt right?
     
  10. Maregbe1

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    Ok I understand that the op is comparing state schools to Columbia, but what about UPENN, which is also ivy. UPENN is an amazing dental school completely separated from their medical school and have "top of the art" facilities. Other than the cost would one say that UPENN would be a better choice if one wanted strong options where they can acquire the skills to be a great clinicians as a GD and still have the option to specialize in comparison to Columbia. I guess my question is columbia vs upenn, What do you all think?
     
  11. dmd2011

    dmd2011 Random Hero
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    I thought that it was common knowledge on SDN that the only people who can specialize are students from an Ivy and that the state school ppl are SOL :rolleyes:
     
  12. DrReo

    DrReo "Thread Necromancer"
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    Yes, we're all on the same page!
     
  13. Maregbe1

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    I agree with both of you that one can specialize from any dental school including schools like Howard and Meharry, but it is no secret that if one had the same stats as another who went to an ivy league school, I believe one would be more inclined to go with the ivy student over the state school or schools not so recognized. Im not saying I agree with this because I don't, its just the way it is.
     
  14. Doh Boy Fresh

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    UPEnn by NO MEANS has "top of the art" facilities...did you even go visit the place:eek:? D1s and 2s are stuck in a dungenous basement with no temperature control...their sim lab can handle at most 15 kids at a time... their clinics are tiny, (save for the clinics in the 2nd/3rd i forget which floor... um they're missing one or some of the specialties - prostho?...

    don't let the name impress you open your eyes to what it is... most clinics had not updated their technology ---they said they were planning on doing an upgrade in the next 2 years... um... as a d3 and d4 you have to fight for chairs if you or your patient arrives late, you could lose your chair..and may have to wait upto a 1/2 hour more until another chair is procured for you...um... i've seen schools with each lab station having a flat screen tv that shows you what the professor is doing up close...not penn, i don't believe i saw a single flat screen at penn... they didn't have digital x rays... it does not have "top of the art" facilities.

    Now MARquette, for example has top of the art facilities!
     
    #13 Doh Boy Fresh, Dec 5, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  15. PSU SHC 414

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    This is definitely 100% on... as a D1/D2 you get to spend all of your waking hours in virtual darkness with hardly any natural light (i.e. the sun) and nice views of an endless maze of pipes in the ceiling.

    And it gets better for the incoming classes - I'm not sure if any of you read that post in one of the "Penn Acceptance" or "Penn C/O 2013" threads, but someone said that they have friends who go to Penn right now, and apparently, when they start to renovate the main clinic, D3s and D4s will have the privilege of seeing patients in a series of TRAILERS.

    And oh yeah... the dentsim lab that everyone seems to be so impressed by at Penn. Yeah, I thought that was awesome too, until I interviewed at Maryland a few weeks later. Here's the analogy -

    Maryland's "DentSim" Lab:UPenn DentSim Lab = Diamond:Cubic Zirconia.

    ---> Things aren't always what they seem, don't let it fool you!!! (isn't that a key line from some movie? i swear it is... just can't remember which one)
     
  16. Plopper

    Plopper "This too will pass"
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    anyone know about the specialization rates of wannabe Ivy's, i.e. UConn (P/f) (and i guess Case)
     
  17. misstoothfairy

    misstoothfairy smileeee!
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    Ivy-Leagues have higher specialization rates because of the type of students they tend to accept based on (Dat/GPA/Goals).

    Back to the question at hand. If you wanna get into something like ortho, you go where you can be the top of your class. If you are an average student amongst a bunch of ivy-league students (at an ivy-league school ofcoursE) compared to a top tier student at a "non-ivyleague" class, you will have a better chance being at the top at a non ivy-league. That is not to say, a top tier-student at a non-ivy league couldn't be a top tier student at an ivy-league. The game starts all over again. It doesn't matter what your DAT score WAS, what your GPA in undergrad WAS, you are the same as everyone else now, and your goal is to be the top of your class and be an attractive PG applicant.
     
  18. UCSF2012

    UCSF2012 Tooth Rehab Student
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    Redneck dentistry. Love it!
     
  19. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    I don't believe I said only students from brand name schools can specialize. If you got that out of my post I'd have to say you misunderstood me.

    I just want to know if it's worth the investment (extra tuition, living far from home etc) to get yourself in an environment where specialization is encouraged, with substantial higher number to show for it (no one has discounted my observation thus far).

    Simple as that. I just want some opinions that are hopefully backed by logical reasoning instead of Ivy-hating (yes we get it it's expensive and snooty).
     
  20. misstoothfairy

    misstoothfairy smileeee!
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    Hey driller,

    I totally get what your saying. Regarding specialization, I don't think someone encouraging me should have any effect on whether or not I want to specialize. I am not Ivy-hating, I applied to 3 ivy-league schools and share my opinions of all 3, not hating on the one I didnt get into. The substantially higher number is because students with better stats, both GPA and DAT, tend to be "better performing" students, and go to ivy-leage schools and get the same grades. Grades are all that matter for PG. All I am saying is, why go to an ivy-league, where competition is more fierce, when you can go to somewhere else where it isn't (non ivyleague)
     
  21. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    I am not certain if it's that much easier to be top of the class at a non-ivy than an ivy. After all the indicators (GPA, DAT) show that students are all pretty much the same (we are all driven and competent people is where I am getting at). But regardless, I just want to discuss the raw numbers.

    Since I do believe that the level of students is similar between schools, there must be something at work that allows the Ivy's to churn out specialists at a much higher rate, whatever it may be (again, if this is an incorrect observation, please correct me). Personally I am a huge bum. I'd work harder if people around me work hard. But I don't want to work so hard to fight for every point and rank, that's why... H/P/F system for the win.

    I just want to know if it's worth it to put yourself in that environment.
     
  22. kag930

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    I'm having the exact same dilemma. Is it worth the investment? When I was comparing Harvard to my state school, I was beginning to lead towards "Yes." However, I just found out today that I got the Dean's Scholarship to UPenn, meaning it would cost the same as my state school. So for someone who wants so specialize... Harvard or Penn? Is there really big enough of a difference to pass up that scholarship?
     
  23. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    Personally I would go to Penn if it's going to cost as much as your state school. I am under the assumption that you want to specialize of course.

    But then again I haven't seen either school, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
     
  24. Maregbe1

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    When I made that comment, I was comparing PENN to the other two IVYs columbia and Harvard. Out of the three I felt that Penn had the best facilities and tried the hardest to take in consideration their students needs (hint: the evaluations which leads to bringing changes to there campus). But yea I will disagree with you because I was impressed by Penns facilities. I interviewed at 8 places and I would still hold this point of view and maybe add UPitt and USC in the mix too.
     
  25. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    How much you're willing to pay is something only you decide. It seems like you've already decided the Ivy environment, attitude towards specialization and grading system is right for you.

    It seems reasonable that if the attitude of the class you join will be "Specialize!", and you're motivated by the attitude of those around you, that attitude will help you specialize. How much it will help, no one can tell you, and how much that's worth in dollars, no one knows.
     
  26. LennyE

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    Im so confused. Is there any reason to go to an Ivy school, like Columbia? Are there any benefits? It seem most people feel that its best to go for the lowest tuition school.
     
  27. Doh Boy Fresh

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    You have a right to your low standards. :laugh:have fun in the dungeon!
     
  28. dentstd

    dentstd Fena Gonzales
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    I don't know where you guys get this phenom of going where specializing is encouraged. Never once has anyone within the class or the professors encouraged specializing in my year and a half here at a "Top 5" school.

    And if you don't like waxing in dark places, I don't know if you realize this. Those waxers are portable. Take it home and wax! If you want to practice on a typodont, get a loupes light.

    And be careful with why people are impressed by certain schools. Put marbles on floors and walls and lots of natural lighting, and people will say, "ooooh....aaaah. This school is impressive."
     
    #27 dentstd, Dec 6, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2008
  29. Maregbe1

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    Haha real funny. like the sarcasm. But yea everyone knows one does not go to a dental school bc of they have top of the line facilities. Dental schools is more than just that so go ahead go to marquette where they showboat their facilities.
     
  30. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    If I say that the Ivy name is not a draw I would be lying. But if that's all I care about I wouldn't have made this thread. I do love Columbia's H/P/F system, but other than that it really isn't that special. If I were accepted to another school with the same grading system I'd consider going there too.

    Thank you for your input though. You have been a great help consistently.
     
  31. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    Thank you for your input. If you don't mind will you tell me where you are currently?

    Also, should I take it from your signature that you wish you went to the cheaper state school?

    I also agree with that last sentence. New and shiny toys are still just toys.
     
  32. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    I think people are referring more to the student body than the actual school. If 40-50% of students at Columbia are going into a specialty, I'm sure the average student is more understanding of why you're not going to make it to their birthday party because you have boards coming up.
     
  33. dentstd

    dentstd Fena Gonzales
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    Signature's sarcasm. Cereal in a bag...is just a bag of crap. No one buys cereal from a bag! I only eat cereal from a box.
     
  34. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    Lol I do frequently buy off-brand cereal. But I guess it's still in a box.
     
  35. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    All cereal comes in a bag, some just has a box also.
     
  36. dentstd

    dentstd Fena Gonzales
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    We all eat Kellogg's and Post cereal without question it. It tastes good, and we like it. When we buy the store brand in a box, we start questioning the quality. Is the name brand better? Or does it just taste better psychologically? As far as cereal in a bag goes...who actually buys that stuff? I personally think it's for show.
     
  37. dentstd

    dentstd Fena Gonzales
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    yup, but that's just what it's called. Cereal in a bag is that stuff on display on the right-most isle of the grocery store. You're not actually supposed to buy it. It's only for show. To prove to customers that they have ultra low prices. 50 cents for a bag of cereal...now how can you beat that?
     
  38. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    I wouldn't know, I don't buy cereal. Raw steel cut oatmeal is like $0.14 cents a pound and 300x better for you.
     
  39. Doh Boy Fresh

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    I'm glad you concede that i'm right in this matter... :thumbup: you have finally come to your senses.

    PS... your statement doesn't make sense -

    Let me Explain: "one does not go to dental schools bc of they have top of the line facilities. dental school is more than just that. so go ahead to marquette where they showboat their facilities.... "

    If ONE does not choose d schools based on facilities, why would one, (such as myself) choose marquette based on facilities as you imply in this post.... also you imply quite the opposite in a previous post... regarding penn's wonderful facilities, and why would one choose columbia vs penn...

    OYYE...figure out what you're trying to argue, cuz you make no sense.

    Peace.
     
  40. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    Come on man, oatmeal tastes horrible.
     
  41. sayilohyee

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    Why??? Dentists from Columbia are not as skilled as others ??
     
  42. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    Not necessarily. It is common knowledge that Columbia does not emphasize clinical work as much as other schools. It expects you to do some PG study, AEGD, or GPR after 4 years of school. And that's when you get good at whatever you do I guess.

    It is also not cost efficient since you can learn to be a great clinician elsewhere for cheaper as well.
     
  43. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    I don't really taste like anything. I eat mine with peanut butter and sugar-free maple syrup though :thumbup:
     
  44. DrillerC

    DrillerC Good Luck Everyone
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    Ehh but oatmeal with peanut butter just sounds like a pile of brown goo with particles interwoven throughout.
     
  45. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    I'm not saying it looks good, but it gets the job done.
     
  46. cobalt31

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    hahaha armorshell you are a machine
     
  47. Spin

    Spin me right round baby
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    Where do you buy your oatmeal? Everywhere I shop just has expensive prepackaged processed stuff.
     
  48. tjdent

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    All cereal with peanut butter mixed in tastes great. Unless its those crappy sugary cereals. Everyone should try it.

    And I agree with Maregbe1, i think location and grading system (Columbia) are just as important as the shiny toys.

    And why do people rag on IVY school tuition when NOVA and BU and NYU and USC and Arizona ALL COST MORE THAN COLUMBIA????
     
  49. Old School

    Old School Magically Delicious
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    I would buy into this if it were 1906, but I don't think that specialty programs give a damn about where you did your learnin's. Board scores are at the top of the list, because the board scores don't discriminate or inflate grade point averages, they just tell the story of who knows best.

    This Ivy school preference might gain some ground when board scores go pass/fail. But I also think that any admissions group will have a favorable view of people who attended their alma mater, be it Harvard or Ernie's College of Dental Medicine and Hair Styling. (*not currently accredited)

    I'd like to see some real stats, that would really solve this riddle.
     

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