Specialty with the highest percentage of divorce rate and/or no marriage?

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doctorhouse

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Is it neurosurgery? Every hospital I've been at has had single neurgosurgeons (never married). Several were guys in their 30s who told me that they simply didn't have time to date. (I don't want to be one of them, but I know that this is career that takes dedication and hard work.) Is NS pretty much prone to this due to its hectic schedule? Is it number one in my poll? getting concerned as this is my field of choice
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There is very little time for anything in NS residency other than work.

You've heard the old joke about how to hide a twenty dollar bill from a neurosurgeon...











...tape it to their kids forehead.

-Mike
 
Chronic Student said:
There is very little time for anything in NS residency other than work.

You've heard the old joke about how to hide a twenty dollar bill from a neurosurgeon...











...tape it to their kids forehead.

-Mike
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Ooooh...that's rough. I know that residency is tough. I was wondering about after it's done.
 
I think it depends on how you handle your life after the bonecrushing residency.

Some people say "F that!" and work enough to make their money and fulfill their obligations. They feel they've paid their dues and it's their turn to reap the benefits. Sure they can pull some crappy long shifts and hours but I've known neurosurgeons who definitely take time off to live the good life.

Some people have been neurotically dedicated since freaking M1 year and after decade of not having a life they don't suddenly feel a need to have a new one. They make neurosurgery their life.
 
One wonders how neurosurgery is still competitive considering how you will have no life what so ever..... I guess to some, money matters more than family. There are some few cases of NS docs out there who maintained family and career... More power to them..
 
There's alot of "never been married" in the Neurology dept. at our program. But I think it's due to the "dork factor" and not the hectic work schedule.
 
Faebinder said:
One wonders how neurosurgery is still competitive considering how you will have no life what so ever..... I guess to some, money matters more than family. There are some few cases of NS docs out there who maintained family and career... More power to them..
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GU, ENT and Ortho are all fairly busy as well - but remain very competitive.
 
As I recall, Psychiatrists actually have the highest divorce rate.

Anesthesiologists have the highest suicide rate.

Not sure I've seen data about the "highest non-marriage rate" but female surgeons probably rank up there! :rolleyes:
 
Faebinder said:
One wonders how neurosurgery is still competitive considering how you will have no life what so ever..... I guess to some, money matters more than family. There are some few cases of NS docs out there who maintained family and career... More power to them..
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I'm not so sure Neurosurg is only about money v family. There are far easier, quicker routes to money in medicine these days, with a much better lifestyle. I think they may...gasp...actually like what they do, or at least prefer some power in their ludicrous field.
 
Almost all the neurosurgeon residents that I know are married, male and female. They seem to somehow find a way to have a life and yes, they really really love what they do. I think that is what you want, a career that you absolutely totally love every day and a family at home too.

You should love what you go into regardless, and the NS's I know totally love what they do. I think if you do, then the rest of it is gravy.
 
DrJosephKim said:
Generally tends to be surgery. Consider your life with a trauma surgeon or a transplant surgeon. When work calls, you go!
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And...when the case is over...hit that hot little ICU nurse or prelim intern in the call room.

I recently spent a week at a conference with a surgery colleague and hearing all the extramarital shenanigans going on in that department was eye opening to say the least.
 
maybe psychiatrists are more apt to say "look I've seen where this crap leads, let's get an amicable divorce and nip this in the bud before we're on an episode of COPS"
 
shadowfox87 said:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199703133361112

Psychiatry wins. Somewhat ironic, but I guess psychiatrists would best know if their relationship is working out.
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Also I heard its partially due to the fact that during the years spanned by that study divorce was less common than it is today, but that psychiatrists are on average more socially liberal than other specialties so divorce wasn't taboo to them.

That being said, probably no better way to tick off your significant other during a fight than correctly pointing out the psychological defense mechanisms they are deploying ;)
 
gutonc said:
And...when the case is over...hit that hot little ICU nurse or prelim intern in the call room.

I recently spent a week at a conference with a surgery colleague and hearing all the extramarital shenanigans going on in that department was eye opening to say the least.
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That Greys anatomy stuff actually happens in real life???:eek:
 
I'll bet if you have a study that encompasses a broad variety of specialties, poor lifestyle will probably be the greatest factor. Interesting about psych though bc of it's good lifestyle rep
 
ilovepath said:
I'll bet if you have a study that encompasses a broad variety of specialties, poor lifestyle will probably be the greatest factor. Interesting about psych though bc of it's good lifestyle rep
Click to expand...

Maybe psychiatrists are more likely to end a bad marriage because they have the free time to get back on the dating scene while docs with worse lifestyles don't? :)
I am a psych resident. I feel that I get along better with my significant other during my psych months than when I am on off-service months (usually worse hours and sometimes if I am stressed or unhappy about work I get crabby). I'm hoping once I am in psych full-time that things will stay harmonious. :)
 
It happens frequently in all fields. I think part of the problem is that med school and residency are major formative years for many physicians. Your life changes a lot during the process, multiple times. That can also change your preference for a mate. There are lots of pressures (work hours, having to move around a lot, etc) which increase the chances of problems. Surgical fields tend to be more problematic but I suspect almost every field has problems.
 
I'd say a higher percentage of the residents and attendings in my neurosurgery program are married/in long-term relationships than the other specialties at my institution, including IM...our chairman tends to choose people in committed relationships because he thinks that they make happier residents, and for sure our program draws in more "family-oriented" types than most other neurosurgery programs. During the interviews for residents our chairman likes to brag about how many babies were born among the residents and attendings that year.

As for my own relationship, I may not have as much time for my fiancee as I would if I were a teacher like most of my friends are, but we make it work by giving 100% of that time to each other when we're together. When I do have to be distracted with reading, I at least cuddle up to him with my journals while he plays his video games. Significant others are always invited to resident gatherings or meetings for our department. He brings me food when I'm on call (and sometimes we even get to eat it together between consults/disasters...:eek:), which is something his dad had to do for his mom when SHE was a resident, and that gets him plenty of bonus points. ;)
 
kitsunepixie said:
I'd say a higher percentage of the residents and attendings in my neurosurgery program are married/in long-term relationships than the other specialties at my institution, including IM...our chairman tends to choose people in committed relationships because he thinks that they make happier residents, and for sure our program draws in more "family-oriented" types than most other neurosurgery programs. During the interviews for residents our chairman likes to brag about how many babies were born among the residents and attendings that year.
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is this legal? to choose residents based on marital/relationship status (either way - whether the higher-ups seek married residents or single). I'm happily single, but I don't want to be discriminated against at a particular residency program because of this (particularly those that may not have a happening singles scene), just as I'm sure someone who is married with kids doesn't want to be discriminated on that basis. I have many married friends, and I don't want to be at a residency program that's only tilted one way or the other. I guess I was just a little miffed by that. No interest in NS, just wondering if that happens generally.

And I guess I'd add, why does it seem people think that being single/not married is guaranteed to make a person unhappy. I'm still in med school, but for me I'd be happier being single in residency and not have the stress of managing a relationship, and being able to unwind at a bar every so often, or travel during my vacations, etc. Some people are just happier single, that shouldn't be held against us just cuz it goes against majority opinion.
 
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sunset823 said:
is this legal? to choose residents based on marital/relationship status (either way - whether the higher-ups seek married residents or single). I'm happily single, but I don't want to be discriminated against at a particular residency program because of this (particularly those that may not have a happening singles scene), just as I'm sure someone who is married with kids doesn't want to be discriminated on that basis. I have many married friends, and I don't want to be at a residency program that's only tilted one way or the other. I guess I was just a little miffed by that. No interest in NS, just wondering if that happens generally.

And I guess I'd add, why does it seem people think that being single/not married is guaranteed to make a person unhappy. I'm still in med school, but for me I'd be happier being single in residency and not have the stress of managing a relationship, and being able to unwind at a bar every so often, or travel during my vacations, etc. Some people are just happier single, that shouldn't be held against us just cuz it goes against majority opinion.
Click to expand...

Nope, but what's stopping them?
 
sunset823 said:
is this legal? to choose residents based on marital/relationship status (either way - whether the higher-ups seek married residents or single). I'm happily single, but I don't want to be discriminated against at a particular residency program because of this (particularly those that may not have a happening singles scene), just as I'm sure someone who is married with kids doesn't want to be discriminated on that basis. I have many married friends, and I don't want to be at a residency program that's only tilted one way or the other. I guess I was just a little miffed by that. No interest in NS, just wondering if that happens generally.

And I guess I'd add, why does it seem people think that being single/not married is guaranteed to make a person unhappy. I'm still in med school, but for me I'd be happier being single in residency and not have the stress of managing a relationship, and being able to unwind at a bar every so often, or travel during my vacations, etc. Some people are just happier single, that shouldn't be held against us just cuz it goes against majority opinion.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry that my statement miffed you, but I was putting it out there that the stereotype about neurosurgeons isn't necessarily true. And I don't think there is active discrimination against single people in our program, as we do have our fair share of single residents, too--just a higher % of non-single residents than I've seen at other programs. I may have said that the CHAIRMAN tends to like the people who remind him of himself and are family-oriented, but his opinion isn't the end all for the ranklist--our Program Director probably has the bigger say. *shrug* We most recently matched all single people. And as I mentioned, people who rank our program highly tend to be the more family-geared out of the match pool. And I agree with you about some people being happier single--and arguably, less likely to let their personal lives come before their obligations as a resident. On the flipside, I've heard of neurosurgery programs that do discriminate against people who have families for that reason, and especially against women, single or not. That also still happens even today whether we like to admit it or not.

Sorry to derail the thread with my two cents and I apologize if I offended someone.
 
kitsunepixie said:
I'm sorry that my statement miffed you, but I was putting it out there that the stereotype about neurosurgeons isn't necessarily true. And I don't think there is active discrimination against single people in our program, as we do have our fair share of single residents, too--just a higher % of non-single residents than I've seen at other programs. I may have said that the CHAIRMAN tends to like the people who remind him of himself and are family-oriented, but his opinion isn't the end all for the ranklist--our Program Director probably has the bigger say. *shrug* We most recently matched all single people. And as I mentioned, people who rank our program highly tend to be the more family-geared out of the match pool. And I agree with you about some people being happier single--and arguably, less likely to let their personal lives come before their obligations as a resident. On the flipside, I've heard of neurosurgery programs that do discriminate against people who have families for that reason, and especially against women, single or not. That also still happens even today whether we like to admit it or not.

Sorry to derail the thread with my two cents and I apologize if I offended someone.
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sorry about that, I didn't mean to sound harsh or take offense to what you said, I did jump to the conclusion that marital status was affecting your program's rank lists, which I felt wasn't right, but that's obviously not the case. Although there is definitely discrimination against married people (and women) in certain specialties, which I definitely don't agree with. I really do think that people's personal business should stay just that, personal, and not have any bearing on their work life. There's a simultaneous thread going about intra-program dating, I see nothing wrong with that if two people are mature enough to handle either a relationship or break up well, which they should by the point they hit residency (but maybe I'm asking too much of people in their mid-to-late 20s). But I'm just a lowly med student (with no personal life to boot), nobody cares what I think.
 
sunset823 said:
is this legal? to choose residents based on marital/relationship status (either way - whether the higher-ups seek married residents or single). I'm happily single, but I don't want to be discriminated against at a particular residency program because of this (particularly those that may not have a happening singles scene), just as I'm sure someone who is married with kids doesn't want to be discriminated on that basis. I have many married friends, and I don't want to be at a residency program that's only tilted one way or the other. I guess I was just a little miffed by that. No interest in NS, just wondering if that happens generally.

And I guess I'd add, why does it seem people think that being single/not married is guaranteed to make a person unhappy. I'm still in med school, but for me I'd be happier being single in residency and not have the stress of managing a relationship, and being able to unwind at a bar every so often, or travel during my vacations, etc. Some people are just happier single, that shouldn't be held against us just cuz it goes against majority opinion.
Click to expand...

sure it is illegal if it happens. however, there will never be a case that can be justified in court with this. every applicant is "different". they could say oh your personality sucked, oh this person did an extra month of IM compared to you.

employers everywhere discriminate. you just cannot easily prove it.
 
PharmaTope said:
sure it is illegal if it happens. however, there will never be a case that can be justified in court with this. every applicant is "different". they could say oh your personality sucked, oh this person did an extra month of IM compared to you.

employers everywhere discriminate. you just cannot easily prove it.
Click to expand...

Married people are not a protected class. Race, gender, age, sexual orientation? Yes. Marital status? no.

Discrimination is not illegal unless it is a protected class.
 
sunset823 said:
sorry about that, I didn't mean to sound harsh or take offense to what you said, I did jump to the conclusion that marital status was affecting your program's rank lists, which I felt wasn't right, but that's obviously not the case. Although there is definitely discrimination against married people (and women) in certain specialties, which I definitely don't agree with. I really do think that people's personal business should stay just that, personal, and not have any bearing on their work life. There's a simultaneous thread going about intra-program dating, I see nothing wrong with that if two people are mature enough to handle either a relationship or break up well, which they should by the point they hit residency (but maybe I'm asking too much of people in their mid-to-late 20s). But I'm just a lowly med student (with no personal life to boot), nobody cares what I think.
Click to expand...

Why would it be illegal to discriminate against married or unmarried people?
 
MCAT guy said:
Married people are not a protected class. Race, gender, age, sexual orientation? Yes. Marital status? no.

Discrimination is not illegal unless it is a protected class.
Click to expand...

Why would it be illegal to discriminate against married or unmarried people?
Click to expand...

When interviewing applicants, it is illegal to directly ask questions regarding marital and family status, based on the Civil Rights Act of 1964. First, these questions are usually asked only of women, which play into your gender issues. Second, some employers assume that married individuals may want children, or may already have children. The obvious concern is that family obligations will get in the way of job performance. But we all know the old adage about what happens when we “ass-u-me”.
 
Ludicolo said:
When interviewing applicants, it is illegal to directly ask questions regarding marital and family status, based on the Civil Rights Act of 1964. First, these questions are usually asked only of women, which play into your gender issues. Second, some employers assume that married individuals may want children, or may already have children. The obvious concern is that family obligations will get in the way of job performance. But we all know the old adage about what happens when we “ass-u-me”.
Click to expand...
While it IS technically illegal to ask these questions, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of residency programs I interviewed at asked me my marital status (either flat out or in a roundabout way like "what does your husband do?"---knowing that I'd either respond with his occupation, or an "I'm not married"). Most of my med school friends encountered the same thing. And for attending jobs, I was always asked "are you married?" and/or "do you have kids?" by someone. Every time. One time I even got a "you technically don't have to answer this, but....". It's hard to avoid answering the question---how do you do this and not look bad? It's not easy in a one-on-one situation to look good and not answer a simple, polite question from someone trying to get to know you. Declining to answer the question is likely to hurt your chances.
 
Smurfette said:
While it IS technically illegal to ask these questions, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of residency programs I interviewed at asked me my marital status (either flat out or in a roundabout way like "what does your husband do?"---knowing that I'd either respond with his occupation, or an "I'm not married"). Most of my med school friends encountered the same thing. And for attending jobs, I was always asked "are you married?" and/or "do you have kids?" by someone. Every time. One time I even got a "you technically don't have to answer this, but....". It's hard to avoid answering the question---how do you do this and not look bad? It's not easy in a one-on-one situation to look good and not answer a simple, polite question from someone trying to get to know you. Declining to answer the question is likely to hurt your chances.
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Very true. Possibly more true for surgical programs, as there tends to be less beating around the bush with surgeons (sorry for stereotyping :)). Some interviewers are savvy enough to know how to get around the rules. It is illegal to DIRECTLY ask these questions. But someone can ask something like: “This program requires a lot of traveling from hospital to hospital, with lots of night float or in-house call responsibilities, depending on the rotation. Will this be a problem for you?” These are real job responsibilities. Ether the candidate can satisfy them or not. The candidate can answer yes or no, but doesn’t necessarily have to volunteer reasons why.

However and unfortunately, I get the sense that not all interviewers are aware of legal vs. illegal questions. Most interviewers are junior faculty who just happen to be available on any given interview day. Based on anecdotal evidence and personal correspondence (so take it for what it’s worth), most attendings don’t get any formal training in conducting residency/fellowship interviews. Nor are they reading up on proper interview etiquette.

Remember that residency interviews are as much for the candidate as for the program. If only one interviewer is un-PC, then maybe as a candidate you let it slide. If everyone at a given program asks personal questions about religion or politics or marital/family status, I recommend answering honestly, depending on one's own personal comfort level. But perhaps think twice come ranking time about how this particular program treats its own.
 
Ludicolo said:
When interviewing applicants, it is illegal to directly ask questions regarding marital and family status, based on the Civil Rights Act of 1964. First, these questions are usually asked only of women, which play into your gender issues. Second, some employers assume that married individuals may want children, or may already have children. The obvious concern is that family obligations will get in the way of job performance. But we all know the old adage about what happens when we “ass-u-me”.
Click to expand...

hmmm...

I just read through each title of the Civil Rights Acts, I'm unable to find being married as a protected class. Gender issues, I agree with you 100%.

Either way, like the posters said above, doesn't matter if it's legal. They will find out if they want to and if they chose to discriminate they will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964
 
MCAT guy said:
hmmm...

Either way, like the posters said above, doesn't matter if it's legal. They will find out if they want to and if they chose to discriminate they will.
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Quoted for truth. If you are female going into a surgical and/or other traditionally male field, you WILL be asked this stuff at at least a good number of your interviews. If you are male, you're still pretty likely to be asked as well...they want you there working and not with kid(s) or pregnant.
 
dragonfly99 said:
Quoted for truth. If you are female going into a surgical and/or other traditionally male field, you WILL be asked this stuff at at least a good number of your interviews. If you are male, you're still pretty likely to be asked as well...they want you there working and not with kid(s) or pregnant.
Click to expand...

This stuff is highly program dependent. I know a certain surgery program where everyone is married. The residents there have a big say in who gets accepted, and they give heavy bias to married applicants. It makes it easier for daycare, baby sitting, family outings, etc.
 
Heck, I interviewed somewhere where their first 3 questions were:

1. Are you married?
2. Do you have kids?
3. Where are you going to rank us?
 
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