SRNA "Resident"

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.

misparas

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2005
Messages
571
Reaction score
0
My niece had a c-section yesterday and she allowed an SRNA to do her spinal. The SRNA introduced themself as a "resident." This is such a misrepresentation. I feel that this is an a blatant attempt to deceive patients.


Is this common practice from SRNA's?
 
My niece had a c-section yesterday and she allowed an SRNA to do her spinal. The SRNA introduced themself as a "resident." This is such a misrepresentation. I feel that this is an a blatant attempt to deceive patients.


Is this common practice from SRNA's?

Yes. I've noted this before on here. I've looked at SRNA CVs for our practice and some list "Residency Training". It is, of course, just where they did their clinical training. It's not their fault really. Their programs refer to it as residency training. It's another blatant attempt to blur the lines of training and deceive the public. The word resident has an exact definition, and by that definition, a nurse can never become one.
Shameful and sad. And typical. I would never let an SRNA call him/herself a resident, as they are not, but I don't train them. Perhaps you should call the anesthesia group and complain about the obvious misrepresentation. It couldn't hurt.
 
Yes. I've noted this before on here. I've looked at SRNA CVs for our practice and some list "Residency Training". It is, of course, just where they did their clinical training. It's not their fault really. Their programs refer to it as residency training. It's another blatant attempt to blur the lines of training and deceive the public. The word resident has an exact definition, and by that definition, a nurse can never become one.
Shameful and sad. And typical. I would never let an SRNA call him/herself a resident, as they are not, but I don't train them. Perhaps you should call the anesthesia group and complain about the obvious misrepresentation. It couldn't hurt.

Or your niece could file assault charges. She didn't consent for an srna to do her epidural. Procedures without consent are assault. I wouldn't want you to ruin the sob's life just because he's a pathetic poser, but that'd stop the misrepresentation of nurses pretending to be doctors very quickly. They don't care about being honest with patients, but I bet they'd care about criminal prosecution.
 
Yes, it's common. When i was a *real* resident i also overheard an SRNA introducing herself to a patient by saying "hi, i'm the resident nurse anesthetist" I'm sure they're being specifically taught to refer to themselves as residents.
 
Yes, it's common. When i was a *real* resident i also overheard an SRNA introducing herself to a patient by saying "hi, i'm the resident nurse anesthetist" I'm sure they're being specifically taught to refer to themselves as residents.

You could respond in kind by referring to them as anesthesia nurses and yourself as the anesthesia doctor.
 
Yes it is common, yes it is blatant misrepresentation, and unfortunately you have about as much chance of stopping it as you do of stopping nurses who have doctorate degrees from referring to themselves as Doctor X in a clinical setting.


- pod
 
My niece had a c-section yesterday and she allowed an SRNA to do her spinal. The SRNA introduced themself as a "resident." This is such a misrepresentation. I feel that this is an a blatant attempt to deceive patients.


Is this common practice from SRNA's?


Would you care to share the name of the hospital this incident occurred at? You can PM if you like.
 
I did a double-take (no kidding, looking to see if that was one of my colleagues) when I was in the SICU and a SRNA "conveniently" introduced herself to the patient's family as the "Anesthesia Intern". I was VERY close to saying something and the ONLY reason I did not was because I did not want to make a scene (patient benefit and common professionalism) as well as having looked at this person and feeling this was part of a bigger picture and that she didn't even look "guilty", thus it may have even been her established way of introducing herself.......

I brought this up at a department meeting but I'm not sure anything was done about it. I was told, truthfully, that the trend in labeling onself as "intern" was common in the professional world and this has spilled over into other professions such as pharmacy, which, again, is technically true.

I can say, however, that only "MDA's" do epidurals or intubate (even emergently) in our SICU, and that's because of friendly surgical and anesthesia leadership... It is nice to hear that "when we're ready, the "MDA" wants to be notified", and then show up scrubbed on to retract bladders and see the chairman of your department at 3 a.m., in the room. (sadly, I've been elsewhere in my state where this did NOT occur, shame on us....) Seriously. Also, it's very cool to hear an "emergent" epidural order placed and have the "MDA" come up with CRNA and SNRA only for the NA's to assist in supplies and patient care while the anesthesiologist does the procedure. Every time. It really is leadership, and up to us folks.... That tired, poor "MDA" could have just sent in the CRNA to do that tough one, at that inconvenient time, but the LEADERSHIP has established that it's just not acceptable to do that. And, ya know what? I agree. When is enough, enough?? MilMD would have said that the "best needle jockey" should have been the one!! (as he did when I stated my sister-in-law demanded an "MDA" during her labor), but I disagree. The best WILL be that "MDA" if we set that as law OR POLICY versus the self-righteous CRNA who comes up at the wee hours to do the job that "Americans just don't want to do".......

You can sense some sarcasm in my speech. However, it's incumbent upon US (key word here people) to set the stage.

cf
 
Last edited:
Im sure most people on this site know that the term "resident" originated at, I believe, Hopkins in the early 1900s when young doctors were literally residents of the hospital and slept there every night.

I really dont understand why department chairs allow that to go on. All it takes is one mass email, or one friendly warning at a departmental meeting..."it has come to my attention that non-physicians in our department have been using terms such as 'intern, and resident' in conversation with patients. This mislabeling opens our department up to possible litigation and I would like this practice to stop." If it doesnt stop, then you, as a department chair, have grounds to introduce that name tag **** someone posted on here a couple weeks ago.
 
I did a double-take (no kidding, looking to see if that was one of my colleagues) when I was in the SICU and a SRNA "conveniently" introduced herself to the patient's family as the "Anesthesia Intern". I was VERY close to saying something and the ONLY reason I did not was because I did not want to make a scene (patient benefit and common professionalism) as well as having looked at this person and feeling this was part of a bigger picture and that she didn't even look "guilty", thus it may have even been her established way of introducing herself.......

I brought this up at a department meeting but I'm not sure anything was done about it. I was told, truthfully, that the trend in labeling onself as "intern" was common in the professional world and this has spilled over into other professions such as pharmacy, which, again, is technically true.

I can say, however, that only "MDA's" do epidurals or intubate (even emergently) in our SICU, and that's because of friendly surgical and anesthesia leadership... It is nice to hear that "when we're ready, the "MDA" wants to be notified", and then show up scrubbed on to retract bladders and see the chairman of your department at 3 a.m., in the room. (sadly, I've been elsewhere in my state where this did NOT occur, shame on us....) Seriously. Also, it's very cool to hear an "emergent" epidural order placed and have the "MDA" come up with CRNA and SNRA only for the NA's to assist in supplies and patient care while the anesthesiologist does the procedure. Every time. It really is leadership, and up to us folks.... That tired, poor "MDA" could have just sent in the CRNA to do that tough one, at that inconvenient time, but the LEADERSHIP has established that it's just not acceptable to do that. And, ya know what? I agree. When is enough, enough?? MilMD would have said that the "best needle jockey" should have been the one!! (as he did when I stated my sister-in-law demanded an "MDA" during her labor), but I disagree. The best WILL be that "MDA" if we set that as law OR POLICY versus the self-righteous CRNA who comes up at the wee hours to do the job that "Americans just don't want to do".......

You can sense some sarcasm in my speech. However, it's incumbent upon US (key word here people) to set the stage.

cf

Ah yes, leadership. That is exactly what it takes.

The CRNA's LOVE to tell stories about who runs the OR's after 3pm M-F. It is constant fodder for the "why do we need anesthesiologists?" mantra they are taught in school. There are far too many facilities where anesthesiologists are literally a 7-3 M-F gig. The CRNA's take all the call, do all the OB, all the knife and gun club cases on the weekend...

And then there are the departments that use SRNA's as free labor to staff their rooms. They're part of the problem as well. We have as many as a dozen AA and CRNA students on a given day, and not one of them is left alone in a room, ever.
 
My niece had a c-section yesterday and she allowed an SRNA to do her spinal. The SRNA introduced themself as a "resident." This is such a misrepresentation. I feel that this is an a blatant attempt to deceive patients.


Is this common practice from SRNA's?



File a law suit for assault. It is winable.
 
Ah yes, leadership. That is exactly what it takes.

The CRNA's LOVE to tell stories about who runs the OR's after 3pm M-F. It is constant fodder for the "why do we need anesthesiologists?" mantra they are taught in school. There are far too many facilities where anesthesiologists are literally a 7-3 M-F gig. The CRNA's take all the call, do all the OB, all the knife and gun club cases on the weekend...

And then there are the departments that use SRNA's as free labor to staff their rooms. They're part of the problem as well. We have as many as a dozen AA and CRNA students on a given day, and not one of them is left alone in a room, ever.

Agreed. And, you know something? It's very hard to argue against their antics when this is in fact the reality at too many institutions. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

I'm not dialed into the financial realities, but if we're going to demand supervision, then we need to be CONSISTENT.

Leadership? You bet. No joke, I'm on OB right now, having the time of my life...🙄 and was scrubbed in on a STAT C-section the other night, and overheard the CRNA state that "The MDA wants to be notified when we're ready" (not a fan of "MDA" but perhaps we have bigger fish to fry) .

It's 3 a.m., we're in the OR, and in walks the chairman of my department looking very tired. But, he was there and that's the important thing. Did he stay for the entirety of the procedure? No. Did he demand input as to the situation, get a history, and play a role? Absolutely.

***The difference from this boring OB case, and other places I've seen, where it runs more akin to what JWK is saying is HUGE and can NOT be underestimated when it comes to mutual respect from our surgical colleagues. Seeing the MD/DO come up at 4 a.m. to place the epidural in a timely fashion earns the respect of the OB residents and staff alike.

Interestingly, the private practice/academic group that runs the department is not only respected in our hospital, but also known for paying very well, and thus I have to assume (without really knowing details) that this "model" is financially feasible also.



cf
 
Seeing the MD/DO come up at 4 a.m. to place the epidural in a timely fashion earns the respect of the OB residents and staff alike.

Something all of us who work with CRNAs can do is simply decline relief from them at the end of the day. Some days I'll get relief offers an hour before a case is done, and they're just bewildered when I say I'll finish.

Odd how they never say no when I offer to relieve them. (Also odd how their anesthesia records seem to be frequently precharted through the PACU signout, but that's another subject ...)
 
Last edited:
File a law suit for assault. It is winable.

There's a good chance the boiler-plate anesthesia consent (much like the surgical consent) says "I authorize Dr. X and associates/ assistants of his choice to administer the anesthetic, blah blah blah." If the hospital has agreed to train SRNAs then the students are covered.

Many schools direct their students to refer to themselves as "resident" versus "student" since they already possess a professional license and are in a specialized training program at a level above the license entry-level.
 
There's a good chance the boiler-plate anesthesia consent (much like the surgical consent) says "I authorize Dr. X and associates/ assistants of his choice to administer the anesthetic, blah blah blah." If the hospital has agreed to train SRNAs then the students are covered.

Many schools direct their students to refer to themselves as "resident" versus "student" since they already possess a professional license and are in a specialized training program at a level above the license entry-level.

That isn't why they're called residents. They're called residents because it's an ego trip to pretend. My buddy did his LLM and despite pursuing specialized training above the license entry-level, he was never referred to as a resident. Of course, he didn't want to pretend to be a doctor...
 
There's a good chance the boiler-plate anesthesia consent (much like the surgical consent) says "I authorize Dr. X and associates/ assistants of his choice to administer the anesthetic, blah blah blah." If the hospital has agreed to train SRNAs then the students are covered.

Many schools direct their students to refer to themselves as "resident" versus "student" since they already possess a professional license and are in a specialized training program at a level above the license entry-level.


Please allow me to clearify the court's perspective to you in a nutshell: misrepresentation of one self (either institutionally encouraged/condoned or otherwise) is prohibited by federal and most states law. That is what protects a patient from a house keeper who can come into a patient's room and pretend to be a Dr. X, etc.... You get my point: a court of law will not judge what "a hospital allows a particular class of providers to call themselves," it judges based on what harm was done to the patient and, specifically, by whom. If the hospital was instructing/encouraging a class of providers to use the term "resident," then the hospital is also culpable in the lawsuit, since it condoned/allowed this mis-representation. And by the way, the "anesthesia consent" is meaningless in this scenario, since the authorizing/supervising physician did not specifically tell the student CRNA to go out there and misrepresent her status by stating that she is a "resident" who is qualified to do the procedure. Yes, symantics here do matter: when you say that you are a resident, the public tends to understand that to be an MD/DO who is in-training, not some nurse in-training. That little factoid will go a long way in a court of law. The fact that a hospital condones this misrepresentation will, as I mentioned earlier, make it as culpable as the provider who pretended to be something that she is not.
 
My niece had a c-section yesterday and she allowed an SRNA to do her spinal. The SRNA introduced themself as a "resident." This is such a misrepresentation. I feel that this is an a blatant attempt to deceive patients.


Is this common practice from SRNA's?

They are indoctrinated to this nonsense from the get-go and it is an insult to all of us who have completed a real residency.

I think an very strongly worded letter will do the most good.
 
Please allow me to clearify the court's perspective to you in a nutshell: misrepresentation of one self (either institutionally encouraged/condoned or otherwise) is prohibited by federal and most states law. That is what protects a patient from a house keeper who can come into a patient's room and pretend to be a Dr. X, etc.... You get my point: a court of law will not judge what "a hospital allows a particular class of providers to call themselves," it judges based on what harm was done to the patient and, specifically, by whom. If the hospital was instructing/encouraging a class of providers to use the term "resident," then the hospital is also culpable in the lawsuit, since it condoned/allowed this mis-representation. And by the way, the "anesthesia consent" is meaningless in this scenario, since the authorizing/supervising physician did not specifically tell the student CRNA to go out there and misrepresent her status by stating that she is a "resident" who is qualified to do the procedure. Yes, symantics here do matter: when you say that you are a resident, the public tends to understand that to be an MD/DO who is in-training, not some nurse in-training. That little factoid will go a long way in a court of law. The fact that a hospital condones this misrepresentation will, as I mentioned earlier, make it as culpable as the provider who pretended to be something that she is not.

No argument ... just saying that what typically happens (as I eyewitnessed at a particular private practice hospital fulltime for three years) is that:

-- with the hospital's and anesthesia group's knowledge the student anesthetist was performing the consent.

-- the hospital used the typical boiler-plate anesthesia consent, wherein as long as the patient READ and signed the consent then Dr. X and associates/assistants (and SRNAs fall into the category of "associates") were covered by using student/resident anesthetist,

-- the hospital and anesthesia group were fully aware of the student's ID badge and verbal nomenclature of "resident," not "student."

I did not agree with the practice. I was just a worker-bee and not management.

I've also seen consents at teaching institutions which further expand the consent to include essentially anyone and everyone in a training status.
 
http://www.uch.edu/find-a-job/nursi...Program/graduate-nurse-residency-program.aspx


http://wnrp.org/

http://www.emoryhealthcare.org/employment/career-programs/nursing-residencies.html

http://www.dukenursing.org/nurse_residency.aspx





Nurse Anesthesia Program

Program Description

Program in Nurse Anesthesia Student Handbook
The Nurse Anesthesia program is a 27-month, full-time, front-loaded program that includes a clinical anesthesia residency. The first year curriculum is devoted to advanced science courses, graduate core courses and specialty courses which form the basis for advanced specialty concepts later in the program. The clinical component starts in May of the second year. During clinical experiences, increasing responsibility for anesthesia patient care under tutorial guidance is afforded. The application of theoretical knowledge to the realities of clinical practice is a dynamic process that enhances and enriches learning as well as prepares the graduate to function effectively and competently as a professional. The sequential design of the program permits the student to acquire the skills necessary to move along this continuum.
 
udents Awake to New Opportunities M.S. in Nurse Anesthesia draws skilled nurses looking for more
NurseAnesth3.jpg
Students lucky enough to be the one-in-four applicants accepted into Webster's only U.S.-based full-time master's program will then, over the next 2.5 years, administer no less than 1,400 hours of anesthesia. That's in addition to 78 credit hours of course and clinical work, plus professional participation in national, regional, and local conferences.
As Gary Clark, associate director of Webster's Nurse Anesthesia program, notes, that's four times the work most master's programs require.
But ask some of the program's 90 alumni, or the 60 current students, and they'll report that the 30 months of intense work is worth the chance to graduate as skilled, professional, nurse anesthetists and active leaders in the health care field.
"I went into this because I love nursing. I love this field," says second-year student Heidi Lee. "But this is a science-based program, and Webster has a very strong science department. The resources we have in the faculty, the simulations, the library, and the clinical sites are all so strong."
Program director Julie Stone says the choice of clinical sites and resources is just as selective as the choice of students, who when admitted use the title resident registered nurse anesthetists (RRNA).
"We have significant clinical obligations as well as didactic classroom experiences and professional obligations that keep students very, very busy for two-and-a-half years," Stone says. "But even with all the qualified applicants we get, we can't accept everyone because we must make sure there are clinical sites available to give them the proper experiences providing anesthesia care."
Did You Know?​
Nurses first provided anesthesia to wounded soldiers during the U.S. Civil War; formal schools in the field began opening in the 1910s.
70% of anesthesia in the United States is administered by nurse anesthetists.
About 49% of the full-time nurse anesthetists in the United States are men.
By the time they graduate, each Webster nurse anesthesia resident has administered 1,400 hours of anesthesia to patients.
About 40% of Webster nurse anesthesia residents have relocated to St. Louis to enroll in the 2.5-year program.
Students must be registered nurses, working in high-acuity environments, who had a minimum 3.0 GPA in their undergraduate education.
Webster has 14 clinical affiliate sites in urban and rural settings—a key for training students in the varying resources and patient conditions nurse anesthetists face in these two different settings.


Skilled Nurses in High-Pressure Settings
The program, launched in 1997, draws registered nurses who were successful in their undergraduate careers and have experience working in fast-paced, high-pressure settings such as intensive care units.
"We're looking at registered nurses who work in situations where patients can deteriorate very rapidly and nurses must use their expert knowledge to think and react quickly," Stone says.
Such intense environments prepare students for the high-acuity setting in which anesthetists work.
"It amazes me everyday," Stone says. "Patients give you the gift of letting you take care of them: You put them to sleep, you make them helpless to respond, you take away their power over their lives—that's such a significant responsibility—and they trust you as the nurse anesthetist to do that and wake them up again and give them that control back."
But this responsibility and the focus of one-on-one care help draw skilled nurses into the program.
"It's the attraction of making decisions about patient care," Clark says. "The attraction of taking care of high-acuity patients one-on-one. Because when we do an anesthetic, we commit ourselves to that patient during the entire anesthetic and into the recovery room. We only do one patient at a time. But it requires all of your senses and almost all of the knowledge that you have, because each patient is different and each surgical procedure requires different skills."
Moreover, the field is always changing. As Clark notes, when he started practicing 34 years ago, "You could probably count the number of drugs we had on both hands," he says, whereas today there are hundreds of options for managing both anesthesia and all of a patient's systems. Meanwhile, equipment has improved and training has evolved to include newer technologies such as advanced simulation labs in which students practice on interactive mannequins.

Webster Innovative Spirit Helped Launch Program

Both Clark and Stone are grateful Webster had the initiative to launch and support the program in 1997, addressing a critical market need of the entire St. Louis region. "At the time there was no program on this side of the state," Clark says.
Since the pilot class of 10 students, the number of students has grown to 20 per class, and the number of clinical sites has grown from four to 14.
"Webster is a very innovative institution," Stone says. "It has created a great opportunity for this program to grow the way we as the nurse anesthesia faculty felt it should, in that we're developing graduates who are well-rounded practitioners of the future."
The directors are also proud of their clinical sites, where on-site nurse anesthetists—many of whom are Webster alumni—provide physical and philosophical support and serve as faculty.
"There are over 500 people who supervise our nurse anesthesia residents and receive no reimbursement or other benefits other than being academically challenged and having the pride of seeing the graduate students progress and join them as colleagues," Clark says.
Importantly, the clinical sites are in both urban and rural settings, which pose distinctly different demands.
"It amazes me everyday. Patients give you the gift of letting you take care of them: You put them to sleep, you take away their power over their lives and they trust you to do that, wake them up again, and give them that control back."​
"In an urban setting," second-year student Heidi Lee explains, "you have peers and maybe an anesthesiologist with you, you have state-of-the-art facilities, and if you need to transfer a patient, you send them to the next floor. But in a rural area you may be a sole provider. Depending on what the patient needs, you may need to transfer them to a different hospital. You need to determine: Can our hospital handle this patient? Can our surgical board handle this patient? Can the intensive care unit - if you even have one - handle this patient?"
Activists and Leaders
No matter the setting, the mission of Webster's program requires that nurse anesthesia residents not only be skilled clinical practitioners but also leaders and servants to their communities. Whether visiting grade schools and high schools in the Ozarks to discuss health care professions, doing a class-wide service project for Webster Works Worldwide, or organizing professional events on Webster's campus, students are encouraged to develop leadership skills and pursue lifelong learning.
The program's monthly all-class conference also brings students from all three class years together once a month to give presentations and discuss current issues in the field. Students are joined by expert presenters and professionals—many of whom earn required continuing education credit for the events.
"We reach out to the community in many different ways," Clark says. "We actually live, breathe, and believe the core values that we teach."


HeidiLee.jpg
Student Spotlight: Heidi Lee Second-year nurse anesthesia resident, class vice president

Heidi Lee, along with class president Rob Walsh, was recently a recipient of the Dean's Service Award. Lee's receiving the award was no accident: she's one of the most active students in a program known for its go-getters. "Heidi is always making things happen," says program director Julie Stone. "She helps her class function as a strong cohort."

The Wisconsin native admits her penchant for organizing activities followed her from her undergrad days at the University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire. "But you know what? If you're organized, you look better, which makes our program look better, which makes us all look better," she says.

"There is so much stress that goes on in this career, but it is rewarding stress," Lee says. "You have someone's life in your hands from the time you start the anesthetic until the time you leave them in the recovery room. You are responsible for how that person recovers and lives the rest of their life. And that person has a family and friends—it's a lot of lives you're impacting, so it's a big responsibility to provide safe, consistent anesthesia."

It is this high-stakes environment that helps classmates in the program form tight, lasting bonds. "It is kind of like a family," says Lee, who's been known to plan the occasional happy hour or two. "With all that responsibility, you've got to make sure you laugh a lot, stay lighthearted. Because you also must be able to see the big picture at all times and know when to focus on things and bear down."

Lee was a nurse for 10 years before she decided to enter nurse anesthesia—largely at the impetus of nurse anesthetists with whom she worked. "I've always been the type of student to keep taking classes, to make sure I'm fresh with my skills," she explains. "And this program really requires you to make sure you are current. There is so much information that's constantly coming in and changing the way things are done."

As a nurse in intensive care units and in recovery rooms, Lee also frequently interacted with Webster graduates and faculty. "I could see the quality in the way their patients came out of surgery," she says. "That really says a lot about how they managed their anesthetic. Their patients—whether they were relatively healthy or very sick—they always came out looking good, stable, comfortable. That says something, you know: good goes in, good comes out."
 
Assess each patient preoperatively and obtain an adequate history and physical. Categorize each patient according to ASA guidelines. Write a legible and informative pre-op note. Reveal significant pre-operative information to the MDA and CRNA responsible for that particular patient.
2. Develop an anesthetic plan for each patient you will be administering anesthesia to and discuss this plan with the attending MDA and/or CRNA before the case is to begin. Develop a back up or alternative anesthetic plan for each patient you will be administering anesthesia to.
3. Assess medication needs for each patient, correctly and effectively write pre-op orders with appropriate medication and dosages identified. Discuss pre-op orders written with appropriate MDA and/or CRNA.
4. Set up the assigned operating room, anesthesia equipment, and anesthesia cart prior to admission of the patient into the operating room.
5. Start an appropriate sized intravenous catheter for IV fluid administration.
6. Prepare the patient for anesthesia induction, which includes:
a. applying appropriate monitors for that particular patient
b. selecting appropriate drugs and dosages for induction
c. having appropriate equipment immediately available for the induction of the patient
d. assessing the physical and emotional need of the patient before induction and implementing the necessary modifications if needed
7. Calculate each patient’s estimated fluid deficit and appropriate fluid replacement for surgery.
8. Demonstrate the ability to manage an airway.
9. Demonstrate the ability to intubate an anesthetized patient using standard equipment.
10. Demonstrate the ability to maintain proper ventilation, oxygenation, normal CO2 levels.
11. Demonstrate vigilance in monitoring the patient during the complete anesthetic process.
12. Demonstrate the ability to interpret information received from the monitoring equipment.
13. Demonstrate the ability to communicate effectively with members of the anesthesia care team and ancillary staff.
14. Demonstrate the ability to assess anesthetic problems that may arise during a case and effectively communicate pertinent information to the appropriate MDA and/or CRNA
15. Demonstrate the ability to safely maintain a patient under anesthesia.
16. Identify the factors that would necessitate crystalloid versus colloid administration and effectively communicate this information to the MDA and/or CRNA.
17. Develop an anesthetic plan for the emergence of a patient under anesthesia and communicate this plan to the MDA and/or CRNA.
18. Demonstrate the ability to safely extubate a patient that has been intubated for surgery and is anesthetized. 8
19. Assess the patient’s physical status and determine the care plan that is needed for the patient in the recovery room.
20. Demonstrate the ability to effectively communicate with the recovery room personnel.
21. Correctly identify the recovery room protocol for emergencies.
22. Correctly identify the chain of command should an anesthetic emergency develop and effectively communicate pertinent information to the appropriate person.
23. Demonstrate the ability to accurately and effectively perform a post op visit to obtain pertinent information on each patient anesthetized by the student.
24. Communicate any adverse reactions or anesthetic problems that the patient may have had, to the appropriate MDA and/or CRNA.
25. Demonstrate professional behavior at all times during the clinical rotation.
9
 
Graduate education, and Nurse Anesthesiology education in particular, is a major undertaking: academically, professionally, emotionally, and financially. In every real sense, Nurse Anesthesiology education is very much comparable to a typical residency program. Classroom, clinical time and study time average around 60 hours per week. As such, this is a full time graduate program and outside employment is not realistic and not consistent with the demands and expectations of such a program. Applicants are strongly encouraged to research all aspects of this undertaking carefully. You are highly encouraged to speak with practicing CRNAs and Anesthesiologists, current Nurse Anesthetist Residents or faculty to observe and/or discuss the practice of modern anesthesia care. With respect to financial planning, applicants are strongly encouraged to have a financial plan in place, as well as a back up plan, prior to making application to the program. For additional information please consult the FIU Office of Financial Aid. As a member of the State University System of Florida, tuition at FIU is among the lowest in the country. Nonetheless, full time graduate students in any program need to have a sound financial plan in place that will enable them to focus on their education and not be distracted by their finances while in school. Current FIU tuition and fee information is available from the Office of Enrollment and Student Services. In addition to the University tuition and fees, there is a fee of $2132 attached to each Anesthesiology Nursing Practicum course. This fee covers expenses for malpractice insurance, review courses, SEE exam, etc.
 
TCU's School of Nurse Anesthesia offers two tracks for entry to practice. One is a 28-month master's program which begins each August with a year of coursework including pharmacology, chemistry, anatomy and physiology, pathophysiology, and research. This is followed by a 16-month residency during which students are placed in hospital settings. This clinical education is under the guidance of clinical faculty who are expert physician and nurse anesthetists. The other track is a 36-month doctoral program which begins each January with 8-months of on-line courses and then follows the same format as the 28-month program.
 
My niece had a c-section yesterday and she allowed an SRNA to do her spinal. The SRNA introduced themself as a "resident." This is such a misrepresentation. I feel that this is an a blatant attempt to deceive patients.


Is this common practice from SRNA's?

Yes. I expect it to become the norm over the next ten years.
 
This is an area where JCAHO and their mostly non-sense regulations can be used to police hospitals who allow their personnel to misrepresent themselves to patients.

This ego-stroking by CRNA schools reminds of the latest math and science survey where american students ranked 25th in math and 21st in science among their peers but actually were # 1 in the confidence category. In other words, a bunch of idiots who think very highly of themselves. Classic!
 
Last edited:
No argument ... just saying that what typically happens (as I eyewitnessed at a particular private practice hospital fulltime for three years) is that:

-- with the hospital's and anesthesia group's knowledge the student anesthetist was performing the consent.
-- the hospital used the typical boiler-plate anesthesia consent, wherein as long as the patient READ and signed the consent then Dr. X and associates/assistants (and SRNAs fall into the category of "associates") were covered by using student/resident anesthetist,

-- the hospital and anesthesia group were fully aware of the student's ID badge and verbal nomenclature of "resident," not "student."

I did not agree with the practice. I was just a worker-bee and not management.

I've also seen consents at teaching institutions which further expand the consent to include essentially anyone and everyone in a training status.

I am glad that we both agree that this is blatant misrepresentation and is fraud. Condoned? Yes. Peddled around and encouraged by nurse anesthesia programs and others? Yes. Will it stand in a court of law just because such "institutions" think that it is right? No. Misrepresentation is misrepresentation....And rest assured, if anything was to happen and a case is brought forth, then an "informed consent" not signed by an attending will be fodder for any attorney. ID badges printed by such hospital would also be looked at in this context.
 
My niece had a c-section yesterday and she allowed an SRNA to do her spinal. The SRNA introduced themself as a "resident." This is such a misrepresentation. I feel that this is an a blatant attempt to deceive patients.


Is this common practice from SRNA's?

I hope your niece wasn't upset by this experience and the C-section went well.

It seems like a misrepresentation using "resident" without adding "nurse." I agree with a previous poster that a letter (cc to those who can address the misrepresentation) is in order.

-IMS
 
I hope your niece wasn't upset by this experience and the C-section went well.

It seems like a misrepresentation using "resident" without adding "nurse." I agree with a previous poster that a letter (cc to those who can address the misrepresentation) is in order.

-IMS

I agree with previous posters that using the term "resident" at all is intentionally misleading. Using the term "intern" is one thing, there are plenty of interns in other fields and it just denotes someone learning a trade. "Resident" is and always has been specific to the medical field.
 
I agree with previous posters that using the term "resident" at all is intentionally misleading. Using the term "intern" is one thing, there are plenty of interns in other fields and it just denotes someone learning a trade. "Resident" is and always has been specific to the medical field.

"Resident" and "Doctor" are not specific to the medical field. HOWEVER, in a healthcare setting, they ARE very specific terms with a specfic meaning, and use of such terms should be restricted to physicians (and dentists and podiatrists if those individuals have operating privileges).

This is the whole idea behind the Truth and Transparency Act proposed in Congress and fully supported by the ASA.
 
"Resident" and "Doctor" are not specific to the medical field. HOWEVER, in a healthcare setting, they ARE very specific terms with a specfic meaning, and use of such terms should be restricted to physicians (and dentists and podiatrists if those individuals have operating privileges).

This is the whole idea behind the Truth and Transparency Act proposed in Congress and fully supported by the ASA.

Just out of curiosity, what other field uses the term "Resident" for a trainee?
 
This is absolutely ridiculous. First the white coat, then they want to call themselves doctor and now resident. What if the ta's went around trying to tell the patients, I am your nurse. Nurses would go ballistic. this is encroachment. This is false advertising. This is fraud. Blatant in your face fraud. I bet at any business the senior managers think they could easily be the CEO, but they aren't. So if someone wants to be CEO bad enough and maybe in their mind they are the ones running the company and they are the ones doing all the work yet they aren't the CEO, well they think try ought to be the CEO, so why not tell everyone they are the CEO? If they told people they were the CEO and the CEO found out? The CEO would fire that person. We need to fire these people. What if the paralegal introduced themselves to the clients as an attorney in the firm? Wouldn't the partners fire this person if it was found out? We need to stop helping crnas before it is too late. No one should instruct a crna if they are an anesthesiologist. And if an anesthesiologist instructs a crna they should be shunned.
 
i introduce myself to my patients as the attending physician anesthesiologist (NOT MD/DO/MDA) before anyone else can and I let them know the: a) junior/senior resident, b) nurse anesthetist (NOT CRNA), c) student nurse, d) medical student or whatever combination will be meeting them shortly.

i think for the care team model to succeed, you absolutely have to draw clear lines.

i also tell them that I will be directing their care in the operating room today. a small thing, maybe, but I feel better when doing it.
 
My niece had a c-section yesterday and she allowed an SRNA to do her spinal. The SRNA introduced themself as a "resident." This is such a misrepresentation. I feel that this is an a blatant attempt to deceive patients.

Is this common practice from SRNA's?

I feel the same way

I had a very similar thing happen to me in the preop area while on the pain service last year. I placed the thoracic epidural and was finishing paperwork, while the SRNA came into the area and introduced herself as the "Nurse Anesthesia Resident". I stopped dead in my tracks, walked over to my pain service attending and discussed what I heard (I didn't think it approriate to have a come apart in the preop area with a nervous patient and full of family etc). My pain attending immediately called my dept chair (This has apparently happened before) and my dept chair contacted me and wanted the names of people etc. There had already been an issue with this and the SRNAs were explicitely told NOT to refer to themselves as "Residents" but apparently this is highly encouraged by their nursing colleagues and is still happening. The next day, a department issued statement was released, again stating the policy of them not introducing/referring to themselves as "Resident". The letter didn't work the firt time, I know it probably won't solve the problem this time, but I will continue to fight for it.

As an anesthesiology resident, I'm a (relatively speaking) laid back person and until that moment, introduced myself by my name and that I was the anesthesiology resident on their case blah blah blah. From that moment on, I only introduce myself as Doctor SoandSo, anesthesiology resident.

It's a war out there
 
I feel the same way

I had a very similar thing happen to me in the preop area while on the pain service last year. I placed the thoracic epidural and was finishing paperwork, while the SRNA came into the area and introduced herself as the "Nurse Anesthesia Resident". I stopped dead in my tracks, walked over to my pain service attending and discussed what I heard (I didn't think it approriate to have a come apart in the preop area with a nervous patient and full of family etc). My pain attending immediately called my dept chair (This has apparently happened before) and my dept chair contacted me and wanted the names of people etc. There had already been an issue with this and the SRNAs were explicitely told NOT to refer to themselves as "Residents" but apparently this is highly encouraged by their nursing colleagues and is still happening. The next day, a department issued statement was released, again stating the policy of them not introducing/referring to themselves as "Resident". The letter didn't work the firt time, I know it probably won't solve the problem this time, but I will continue to fight for it.

As an anesthesiology resident, I'm a (relatively speaking) laid back person and until that moment, introduced myself by my name and that I was the anesthesiology resident on their case blah blah blah. From that moment on, I only introduce myself as Doctor SoandSo, anesthesiology resident.

It's a war out there

this way
 
I feel the same way

I had a very similar thing happen to me in the preop area while on the pain service last year. I placed the thoracic epidural and was finishing paperwork, while the SRNA came into the area and introduced herself as the "Nurse Anesthesia Resident". I stopped dead in my tracks, walked over to my pain service attending and discussed what I heard (I didn't think it approriate to have a come apart in the preop area with a nervous patient and full of family etc). My pain attending immediately called my dept chair (This has apparently happened before) and my dept chair contacted me and wanted the names of people etc. There had already been an issue with this and the SRNAs were explicitely told NOT to refer to themselves as "Residents" but apparently this is highly encouraged by their nursing colleagues and is still happening. The next day, a department issued statement was released, again stating the policy of them not introducing/referring to themselves as "Resident". The letter didn't work the firt time, I know it probably won't solve the problem this time, but I will continue to fight for it.

As an anesthesiology resident, I'm a (relatively speaking) laid back person and until that moment, introduced myself by my name and that I was the anesthesiology resident on their case blah blah blah. From that moment on, I only introduce myself as Doctor SoandSo, anesthesiology resident.

It's a war out there

When you have completed residency, You might want to consider introducing yourself as "the anesthesia doctor" or "the doctor in charge of your anesthetic" if you work in an ACT setting.
In the preop area or when seeing patients on floors, consider wearing a long white coat with John Smith, MD Dept of Anesthesiology.

It is a war out there and every little bit helps.
 
Typical AANA bull****.

CRNAs are not your friends. Even the "nice" ones that you work with everyday have their own organization's best interest in mind.

They honestly believe that the only difference between you and them is that you make 2x as much.

They will LIE THROUGH THEIR TEETHS to con legislators to erase that salary gap... it's a whole lot easier than going through 4 years of medical school and 4 years of anesthesia residency.

There's a WAR out there, and so far the AANA is winning.

Reading big Miller ain't gonna help you. :meanie:

Take the pledge below:
 
And where the ACT is utilized, support AA's, because AA's support physician anesthesiologists. We are members of ASA and donors to ASAPAC. You won't find many CRNA's that politically and monetarily support those organizations.

Typical AANA bull****.

CRNAs are not your friends. Even the "nice" ones that you work with everyday have their own organization's best interest in mind.

They honestly believe that the only difference between you and them is that you make 2x as much.

They will LIE THROUGH THEIR TEETHS to con legislators to erase that salary gap... it's a whole lot easier than going through 4 years of medical school and 4 years of anesthesia residency.

There's a WAR out there, and so far the AANA is winning.

Reading big Miller ain't gonna help you. :meanie:

Take the pledge below:
 
Yeah, I tried the laid back, "Hi, my name is X," but quickly realized the importance of presenting myself as a physician in every clinical setting. I encourage all of our junior residents to do the same.

Indeed. I always introduce myself as "first and last name" to most hospital employees.

But, it's always Dr. XYZ to patients. I remember in med school, they told us that studies have shown that people don't want "Joe Kool" taking care of them or their family, but rather Dr. Kool.
 
And where the ACT is utilized, support AA's, because AA's support physician anesthesiologists. We are members of ASA and donors to ASAPAC. You won't find many CRNA's that politically and monetarily support those organizations.

Hey, welcome. Congrats on your being accepted to Nova's AA program, btw.👍
 
udents Awake to New Opportunities M.S. in Nurse Anesthesia draws skilled nurses looking for more
[
Students must be registered nurses, working in high-acuity environments, who had a minimum 3.0 GPA in their undergraduate education.
[/LEFT]

hahahahahahaha - in what? sociology? basket weaving? "pre-health?"
:laugh:
 
Working in an ACT model, I virtually always meet the patient before the CRNA. I introduce myself as Dr. So and So from Anesthesia and that I'm in charge of keeping you safe and comfortable today in the OR. After I get done running through H/P and explaining the plan, I mention that they are also going to meet one of my nurse anesthetists that is going to help me take care of them back in the OR.

If we have a SRNA with us in that room, I mention that they will meet so and so who is a nurse that is learning more about anesthesia and helping us today.

There is no confusion about the roles between myself and the patient and the family. I make sure they all know my name and that I answer all their questions. If $%^& hits the fan in the OR, I'm going to be the one responsible for decision making along with their surgeon and we are all clear about this.


It's all about meeting the patient and/or family early in the process and taking the time to explain how everything is going to work and what is going to happen. If I stroll in late and fire off the same questions everyone else already has and repeat the same anesthesia plan they've already heard, it doesn't make me look like a genius. If I can be the one that answers every question and concern and alleviates their anxiety, it's smooth sailing.




Communication is key at the MD-MD level, MD-RN level, and MD-patient level.
 
For the most part the residents, fellows and CRNAs don't even meet the family in pre op. They're usually busy doing other things. Many of the fellows and a couple of the CRNAs try to see the family before we go back, but it's almost always after I've introduced myself and reviewed the H&P and discussed the plan. They're just there to eyeball the patient and introduce themselves. On call or weekends they may see the add ons first for convenience, but it's clear who's in charge when I meet them.👍
What's next CRNAs saying, "I'm the attending anesthetist"?!😕
Our IDs are very clear. Attending Physicians are a different color, as are all nurses and residents/interns/fellows. All are clearly, and boldly, labeled. We try to be very transparent and patient/family friendly.

Working in an ACT model, I virtually always meet the patient before the CRNA. I introduce myself as Dr. So and So from Anesthesia and that I'm in charge of keeping you safe and comfortable today in the OR. After I get done running through H/P and explaining the plan, I mention that they are also going to meet one of my nurse anesthetists that is going to help me take care of them back in the OR.

If we have a SRNA with us in that room, I mention that they will meet so and so who is a nurse that is learning more about anesthesia and helping us today.

There is no confusion about the roles between myself and the patient and the family. I make sure they all know my name and that I answer all their questions. If $%^& hits the fan in the OR, I'm going to be the one responsible for decision making along with their surgeon and we are all clear about this.


It's all about meeting the patient and/or family early in the process and taking the time to explain how everything is going to work and what is going to happen. If I stroll in late and fire off the same questions everyone else already has and repeat the same anesthesia plan they've already heard, it doesn't make me look like a genius. If I can be the one that answers every question and concern and alleviates their anxiety, it's smooth sailing.




Communication is key at the MD-MD level, MD-RN level, and MD-patient level.
 
Last edited:
By the time they graduate, each Webster nurse anesthesia resident has administered 1,400 hours of anesthesia to patients.

probably the most damning thing above, given that its probably 30% of what I did in CA1-CA3 (excluding pain, ICU, OB, etc.)
 
probably the most damning thing above, given that its probably 30% of what I did in CA1-CA3 (excluding pain, ICU, OB, etc.)

Assuming you worked ~60 hours/week for 48 weeks in any given year, that's less half of the hours earned in one year. This also assumes you were administering anesthesia for all 48 of those weeks.
 
probably the most damning thing above, given that its probably 30% of what I did in CA1-CA3 (excluding pain, ICU, OB, etc.)

Fascinating statistic. If "equivalent" to an actual resident, 1400 hours/3 years/48 weeks per year is a whopping 9 hours of clinical care per WEEK of resident training. You can get more than that in a single late day. Even at twice the hours, their training is a joke. Obviously our training is far, far too long. Yet some programs want to add another year? Yes, we're doing it wrong.🙄
If you're working only 6 hours out of an 8 hour day, and take no call or late days, you can surpass that in less than 12 months. And of course resident hours are always 7-3.🙄 What the he'll are they doing, or not doing??? Wow.
 
Assuming you worked ~60 hours/week for 48 weeks in any given year, that's less half of the hours earned in one year. This also assumes you were administering anesthesia for all 48 of those weeks.

Don't worry, Webster can fix their site and start putting the training in months or years to make it seem comparable to residency, like most nursing programs do.
 
Working in an ACT model, I virtually always meet the patient before the CRNA. I introduce myself as Dr. So and So from Anesthesia and that I'm in charge of keeping you safe and comfortable today in the OR. After I get done running through H/P and explaining the plan, I mention that they are also going to meet one of my nurse anesthetists that is going to help me take care of them back in the OR.

If we have a SRNA with us in that room, I mention that they will meet so and so who is a nurse that is learning more about anesthesia and helping us today.

There is no confusion about the roles between myself and the patient and the family. I make sure they all know my name and that I answer all their questions. If $%^& hits the fan in the OR, I'm going to be the one responsible for decision making along with their surgeon and we are all clear about this.


It's all about meeting the patient and/or family early in the process and taking the time to explain how everything is going to work and what is going to happen. If I stroll in late and fire off the same questions everyone else already has and repeat the same anesthesia plan they've already heard, it doesn't make me look like a genius. If I can be the one that answers every question and concern and alleviates their anxiety, it's smooth sailing.




Communication is key at the MD-MD level, MD-RN level, and MD-patient level.


Quite frankly, I wouldn’t trust a CRNA to handle my anesthesia.....even under the supervision of an anesthesiologist. I’ve witnessed first-hand in the OR how some of the more ballsy CRNAs are a bit hesitant to call in the anesthesiologist when something isn’t right, and instead try to troubleshoot problems themselves first. That’s not gonna cut it for me if I ever need to go under GA for anything (and I’m the epitome of an ASA-1). I’d much rather have the expert physically present at the head of my bed, thank you very much!
 
probably the most damning thing above, given that its probably 30% of what I did in CA1-CA3 (excluding pain, ICU, OB, etc.)


Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t most anesthesia problems occur closer to the time of induction or recovery? Counting the number of hours of “anesthesia” they deliver doesn’t seem like a very good way of estimating their ability to handle the complicated aspects of anesthesia. I’d think that the number of cases would be a better estimate. By virtue of the fact that you guys spend three years training on anesthesia while they spend one year on anesthesia (and one year training on easier patients as student CRNAs rather than anesthesiology residents), one would assume that you’ve got a hell of a lot more training, period. Just a thought.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top