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Discussion in 'General International Discussion' started by bangaloreuser, Mar 31, 2004.
Current students or past students of the above school - please write your experience.
Interesting, as IMED lists 2000 as the first year instruction began. Considering that Liberia just emerged from a civil war in which in was embroiled for the last 20 or so years, I would be curious if any of its students had actually attended school in Monrovia.
Also, looking at their website, it seems that they are taking the St. Christopher's / Kigezi route, by chartering in an African country and providing instruction elsewhere.
Thanks Miklos for your input. I want to know if the students of this medical school who are studying in their campus in Pune (India) are eligible for licensure in the US, as I understand that the student should study minimum 2 years in the country where the medical school is chartered to get US licence to practice.
Feedback for the students of St.Luke, Liberia would be appreciated.
Many Offshore medical school have campus outside the country of their charter. SC also has a campus in Luton and those students do not study in Senegal.
What happens to all these students who study in the campus of the medical schools located outside the country of charter at the time of licensure.
Do you know which States have objections.
Actually, that is a very good question.
If you are serious about this route, I would suggest that you take a look at the St. Christopher's forum on www.valuemd.com
There is an active on-going discussion there about the licensability of SC grads for precisely this reason. If I am not mistaken, SC so far does not have any licensed grads, because it is too new.
I would echo Skip on his advice.
Additionally, I would note that a substanstial number of the St. Luke faculty are graduates of Spartan. This would make me reconsider my decision to attend.
I will be attending St. Andrews international Academy/St Luke school of medicine, Ghana in Pune, India next year. If you like you can PM me I will answer your question to the best of my ability.
I believe the boards concerns are for schools that do not "Prove to the board that the applicant has received (a) a diploma from some legally incorporated professional
school or college of the United States, Canada or other foreign country, which school or college, in the opinion of
the board, was in good standing at the time of the issuance of the diploma." Nevertheless, unless the board has made a new law this year or last year, no where does it specify that an IMG must have 2yrs education in the schools charted location.
People seems to compare SLUSOM with a carribean medical school and it's not the same. SLUSOM is not a school set up for the purpose of just granting MD degrees to US citizens. Students at SLUSOM are able to study for MD/PHD, MD, PA/MD, NP, MD/NMD Masters degree's or High school to MD program. Students from Africa and India make up the majority of the student body. Graduates from SLUSOM have become licensed physicians it's charted location. Clinicals/Clerkships and Residencies can be done at all campus location at hospitals and physician clinics in the charted country as well as India. Students do not have to go to the US to do clinicals or residencies. All of these programs are offered by SLUSOM not by any affiliated universities it may have connection with. Do you see the difference?
SLUSOM is a new school, so it is not heard about as often as the carribean medical schools. The only bad press has come from SLUSOM online program which is for advanced student such as RN's, Chiropractors..ect. However, some states in the US fail to see that SLUSOM does not give credit for life experiences. It does not allow a RN, DC, PA to not have to do what all non-online students have to do. They still have do 2yrs basic sciences and 2yrs clinical/clerkships. The only difference is that they do the first 2yrs years in their home. I personally do not see the problem with this.
Yet, SLUSOM campuses are fully functional and often share the same facilities, in it's charted country with the exception of Lagos Nigeria, as other Africa's medical students. For instance, at Cape Coast Ghana campus, St. Luke's campus is on the campus of Valley View University, a real university in Accra Ghana, not some shack stuck in the back of a old rusting building. Liberia campus used to be on AMD (George A. M. Doggliotti college of medicine campus and classes were shared with AMD students) campus, now the campus is shared with a major hospital in Liberia in it's charted country. I personally know of students who are studying there and have heard no bad news post-war. The Lagos Nigerian campus has it own campus. Since it just opened this year, I have not heard any news on this campus.
As far as licensing is concerned, each state has there own licensing requirement for IMG's. It's important for US citizens interested in any International medical school to be knowledgeable of the state which they like to practice medince in the future. Does SLUSOM claim to that students can be licensed in all 50 states? No. SLUSOM makes claim that graduates can be licensed in any state with requirements that graduate must have
ECFMG certification and has attend a medical school listed with WHO/IMED. There's a big difference there from a school that makes claims that a student can be licensed in all 50 states, since many states go beyond this requirement such as CA. Unless an IMG is able to take a 5th pathway program, that is the only guarantee that you will be able to be licensed in all 50 states no matter what that school tells you. It's the law.
Lastly, a word about faculty at SLUSOM. As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, SLUSOM campuses are shared with well known schools in the country which it has campuses. Most of the teachers you will recieve education from are from these medical schools and universities. Since SLUSOM does not employee them, they do not list this under the faculty sections. You can be assured that your education will come from some of the best physician and educators in that country. How else would it be possible for the few faculty member listed to teach at 4 campuses at the same time?
I hope this clears some of the confusion and again I'm open to anyone who has questions or doubts on SLUSOM.
I have no interest in getting in a discussion regarding the merits of SLUSOM.
However, when you write that the 5th Pathway program is the only guarantee that an IMG will get licensed in all 50 states, you are mistaken.
1) There are a limited number of states out there that WILL NOT license 5th pathway graduates. Why? Licensure is left to individual states, as there is no such thing as federal licensure.
2) There are off-shore schools that will give the student the possibility of licensure in all 50 states. I am not going to detail the list, but by contrast anyone following the fora here or at ValueMD knows that schools that are chartered in location other than where the basic sciences are taught will face difficulties in getting their license in a number of states. It does not matter who attends the school, be it locals or otherwise, this issue is still firmly undecided. Anyone considering a school that is chartered in a different location than its campus must consider this as a risk.
You are right, I did not read that part about states not accepting 5th pathway programs.
I suggest anyone interested in licensure in the USA to read this
You will need Adobe reader to read it.
But it is the current requirement for state licensure. I have noticed that some states are not on this list. I'm not sure if that's because those states have not summitted paper work in time of publication or if they are in the process of re-working requirements.
As I have said before and still say now, I stand behind SLUSOM. I know that it is not a fake school nor is it a school that makes false promises or a dipolma mill. I may not be able to get licensed in all 50 states in the US. However, as long as I'm able to get licensed in any state which the National Health Service Corps has a need for physicians, I'm satisfied.
Bottom line - If the schools do a good job at teaching and have a decent curriculum, they will be on IMED and you will get licensed. Even if it is not listed now, all you need is that IMED list it on the year of your graduation. so you have 4-5 more years..
That's a very good link.
However, I don't follow you regarding the NHS.
The 'federal loophole' (if that is what you are referring to) is very small. Yes, you can practice medicine with an out of state license (you still need an initial license from somewhere!) at a federal facility, but the moment you try to do the same on the other side of the fence, you are practicing medicine without a license and are subject to legal sanctions. This, IMHO, is not a realistic career choice.
This, IMHO, is very poor advice.
There is huge difference between the possibility of being licensed everywhere and relying on the fact that the school may be IMED listed by the time you graduate, especially as I believe that more states will follow the California model and continue to place additional restrictions on IMGs.
It would foolish of me to try to get a license in every state. Nor, does the NHSC work that way. Most do not travel the US going from job to job. Most work in one state so it would be no need for you to become licensed in all 50 states. You decide where you want to work. If there is a need in that state, you fill out the application and wait to hear from them.
I don't need to prove my school, I only have the need to defend my school against people that encourage others that the caribbean medical schools are the best and only option for them. I have already cleared 3 states that I can be licensed in. My school is IMED/WHO listed. It is recognized so that I may take the USLME, CSA and the ECFMG. It is recognized by the government in it's country and graduates are able to do residencies, clinicals and post-graduate work in it's country, India or the US.
You say it's not worth the risk to attend a medical school not approved by CA or the other states that follow after CA because every state may follow after CA, this is bogus. The only medical schools worried by such an act are those medical school set up for the sole purpose of educating US citizens. How long do you think this will last before the federal government has to step in because many FMG's will fall victim to this so called banning of medical schools which are recognized by that countries government but fall short of what the US calls a good medical school? Will every state leave the burden on one state or organization to have someone to travel to every country to evaluate medical schools; there are thousands, that would be alot of work and money for just one somebody? How will each state continue to keep up such a list? Will it be published every year? Prehaps the government will create an organization simply to evaluate a medical school every year? Will american citizens put up with a organization spending tax dollars on hiring someone to live or travel to another country solely to evaluate medical schools? Will the US force all international medical schools to apply for approval before any FMG be eligible for licensure in the US? What about current FMG licensed in states with approved/disapproved schools who decided to move to another state? Will that FMG be denied a licensed on the grounds that his/her school is not listed on the approved/disapproved list, yet, the FMG has a distinguised track record and is known as one of the best physician in that state for which he/she wants to leave due to the increasing rate of malpractice insurance?
Should I go on or do you see the meaningless point?
The point is far from meaningless. State medical boards have (and unless something is done at the federal level) the final say in licensing. An IMED listing is only the starting point for ECFMG certification, but a state can (and many do) impose whatever restrictions on IMGs that they wish.
If you don't believe me when I tell you that the climate is anti-IMG, consider that Canadian graduates (from LCME equivalent schools) have restrictions imposed on them!
BTW, I find it ironic that you attack Carib. schools, as according to the school website, much of the faculty are Spartan graduates.
You totally missed my point. And, what point is it that the executive faculty are spartan graduates? Since when did the president, CEO or Financial officer of a medical school have to be a licensed physician to run a good school. This is what I mean be meaningless points that are used to attack another school. It's meaningless for me to even continue to pursue this issue. You have your thoughts and I have my thoughts, so what meaning do we have to continue to go back and forth.
My issues aren't with caribbean medical schools. It with people with hidden agenda that come onto boards such as this to attack another educational system by pointing out issues that have no merit. It's meaningless.
No, this is not correct.
I believe the medical school must be listed by WHO or IMED before a student starts the medical program. Otherwise there will be licensure problem down the road.
The issue of attending a medical school not in its country of charter is an important matter. Keep an eye out on St. Christopher as it proceeds on in its merry ways in Luton (when its charter is Senegal).
As an USIMG myself, far be it for me to attack other educational systems. However, when someone goes abroad for med school they need to look at what they are getting for their money. Potential students need to view this as a business decision with long-term consequences. There are good, fair, poor and really poor educational choices in the international med school market regardless of the school's physical location.
IMHO, licensure is issue number one. If a given med school's diploma is not accepted for licensure in a number of states, then it is worth that much less.
I won't even discuss in detail the other factors (such as reputation, attrition rates, USMLE pass rates, residency placements, quality of education, etc.)
My agenda is not hidden. I believe that potential students need to look out for themselves when it comes to choosing a med school abroad.
NB I do not earn a penny from my advice.
Thanks for your advise.
But since I am planning to go to do pre-clinicals in a campus of the medical school which is not situated in its country of charter, there are chances that I may not be able to get licensure at a later date if the US government strictly implements its policy as far as IMG studying in the campus outside the country of the Medical school's charter is concerned.
However, looking at the cost factor (I will be able to obtain a MD degree at 20% the cost of other Foreign medical schools) I am willing to take the risk.
Please advise what other alternate career options I can take up after MD degree and residency if I do not get the license to practice.
Since you are asking for my advice, here it is.
Keep the following risk factors in mind.
1) You are considering attending a school that has not proven itself. It has no track record to speak of.
2) You don't know if the school will be around tomorrow or the day after.
3) The quality of education is (IMHO) suspect, as the executives of the school are graduates of a school with a very poor reputation. Nevermind the poor long-distance education program. Will they be able to prepare you for the USMLE or clinical practice?
4) The number of states where you can do residency training is already limited by the school. You will need to do research as to where you can do a residency. This makes applying to a residency that much more difficult, as you can only apply to a smaller pool of available residencies. BTW, I don't know what kind of medicine you wish to practice, as getting a residency is a problem of its own.
5) You may have difficulties getting licensed in many states. To my knowledge, unless one of the first graduates of St. Christopher's is getting licensed, so far no one using the same educational method (e.g. charter in a country apart from the place of instruction) has been licensed in the US. (If someone has info proving otherwise, please feel free to educate us.)
So, there are the risk factors. If despite this, you go to the school and successfully navigate through the school, the USMLEs and the ECFMG and gain and complete a residency, that would be an accomplishment. (Problem is, it doesn't all depend on you!)
You may find places that will license you, but they may not be where you want to work. You can probably discount the large states (California, New York, Texas) as well as small states that have active medical boards.
The question then is, is the inexpensive tuition worth all that?
So, you are looking at working without a license see http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/11069.html
Not true that it is the cheapest. There are other schools with same or lower tuitions and much less risks.
Please name the schools.
Bangaloreuser, there are schools less expensive than St.Luke's,Ghana/Libera. On the other hand are they less of a risk factor,
This is an open forum where people have bias's toward's schools for whatever reasons. There are people who will tell you not to go to any caribbean school and there are other's who will tell you it's less a risk than going to china. I can sit here and tell you the benefits of going to one school versus another school, but that would be pointless don't you think? What matters in the end is can you become licensed in the state you wish to practice medicine? That's it..nothing more about it. No seceret to this.
Get a list of schools which you feel you can afford to go to. Then, call your state medical board which you want to practice medicine in and ask them what the requirements are for FMG's becoming licensed in that state. Compare your list of schools to the requirements of that state. If the school/s meets the requirements for Licensure, then who gives a damn what other people say or think or how long the school's been in operation or who the school was started by. All that really matters is "Can you become licensed in the state which you want to practice medicine in?"
Forget about trying to become licensed in all 50 states. You want to become licensed in all 50 state, go to a US medical school. No foriegn medical school can guarantee you this and if you fall for this then it's your own fault for not doing the research and not opening up your eyes to reality. By not going to a medical school in the US you limit yourself, that's the true risk factor.
Ok, if you can't get licensed in one state. Hello, there are 49 other states you can get licensed in as long as you meet the state requirements. If you can't get licensed in 15 states there are still 35 other states. If you were so desperate to go to medical school that you left this country to attend medical school in another country, shouldn't you be desperate enough to go where you have to go to do what it is you set off to do in the first place? If not being able to be licensed in a couple states means alot to you, then you shouldn't be going out of the country in the first place.
Bottom line, your still considered an FMG by the state no matter if you went to Buenos Flora Medical school in the deep jungle of south america or Ross. It doesn't matter who started your school or who runs your school. Your still a FMG in the states eyes. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that one FMG is better than another FMG simply from the school they attended. The only thing that matters is, are you meeting the requirements to become licensed in the state you wish to practice medicine. Hell with everything else because it dosen't matter.
I disagree. There are foreign med schools that will give you the possibility of getting licensed in (nearly) all states.
-Canadian schools, though they have restrictions placed on them by individual states are LCME accredited.
-British/Irish/Australian med schools that primarily teach their own citizens give their students the possibility of getting licensed everywhere in the US, provided that the individual does their homework.
-The Carib Big 3 (SGU, Ross, AUC) are good in almost all states, with the possible exception of Texas, again, provided that the individual student does their homework.