Stanford Med vs. Mount Sinai

[onemoretime1986]

I've read other threads and realize no one can really answer this for me. However, realizing I only have a week to decide I thought I might post and just try and work out my own thinking and see what other people think.

I was lucky enough to be accepted at both schools, and I do realize I should be ecstatic just to be in this position. For some background information ----- I'm originally from Pittsburgh, graduated from Penn undergrad. Heavily basic science research focused (Stanford is like the mecca of this), also interested in working with underserved population and I enjoy being around people with different interests than my own.I have a lot of connections in Philadelphia, New York, and Boston (friends, family, etc.) and I sort of strongly prefer the urban environment to the suburban one. Palo Alto seemed like it would be boring for someone in their 20s, and I got the sense that people didn't go into San Francisco that often. Maybe, I'm misinformed?

I really don't know anyone who lives in the Bay Area or goes to Stanford. These East Coast friends however, are yes, scattered and I'm not sure how much time I'd have to see them in medical school anyway. I've also always had some desire to move out to the West Coast and realize this may be a great opportunity.

Initial perceptions, I like Stanford's curriculum better, the facilities are awesome (new medical school building=), the research is more in tune to what I want (everyone was doing some, even while taking classes). I'm interested in taking law or business school classes on the side, and I loved that you had so many opportunities on the campus to develop other interests. It's beautiful there, and I like the idea of still being able to drive my car. I felt like the students seemed a little bit lame, as if no one really wanted to have fun in medical school. I also got an isolation vibe from the campus...it felt weird knowing that patients would have to take a ride down a resort-like entranceway to get to an isolated hospital...why wasn't this placed in a populated area off-campus to better serve the community?

Sinai definitely wins on location. I think I clicked better with the students, as they seemed a bit more social/outgoing/having a life outside of medicine than the Stanford students I met. I also got the sense that the 140 class size was better than 86...there just seemed like there was more diversity. There's research there too that I'm interested in, but everything just doesn't seem as well funded as Stanford. Med Scholars was 6 grand per quarter and you could earn up to 7 grand as a TA. I loved the liberal arts feel and felt at home with many of the people I met. It's only a few hour plane ride from Pittsburgh (my parents may be moving to DC or Philly, so also close). I also loved Elmhurst Hospital option...most diverse zip code in America? Heck yeah! That sounds like an adventure.

So I'm torn between a school I like the academic program more and is higher ranked/more prestigious. Versus a school who's location might? be better for me and students seemed more outgoing.

I get the distinct feeling I'd chose Stanford if it wasn't for the suburban thing and the feel I got from students. Am I wrong to assume my social life opportunities will be that much worse in Palo Alto than at Sinai? Also, as busy as I will be in medical school...will this really even matter?

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[alibai3ah]

I would go with Stanford, but I'm a bit biased towards California. Is the suburban location that bad? I grew up in Palo Alto (9+ years) and it is a pretty neat place to live. I know it is not as happening as NYC, but I feel like there are things to do around this area and you don't have to be overwhelmed like you would be a in big city. There are bars along University Avenue. Additionally, if you want that city feel, SF isn't too far away. The Weather is also SIGNIFICANTLY better than it would be in New York so that is something to consider.

I didn't interview at either school, but both are great. I would pick Stanford b/c I like that type of a location. But if you really need a big city type of feel and you need to be living there, then I would go with Mount Sinai.

 

[annihilatorpro]

What are your career goals? If it's anything research or in academic medicine, go to Stanford as they are ridiculously well funded and will get you where you want to be in the future.

 

[onemoretime1986]

I'm strongly interested in academic medicine, possibly eventually a teaching position at an academic hospital (I LOVE TEACHING). I have a lot of interests outside of pure clinical medicine, and I liked that there were so many biotech companies that seemed to be often directly coming out of Stanford Med. I had an excellent talk with my interviewer about how he thought I'd fit in very well with what Stanford had to offer. I have a slight entrepreneurial edge, and I didn't get that sense at Sinai...whereas it's pretty apparent at Stanford. I guess it would be best to get comments from fellow interviewees or current students to elucidate these differences.

Sinai seems slightly more clinically focused, although, I also got the sense that it's did amazing things with research. I also acknowledge that fact that I cannot predict how I will feel about these things after going through 4 years of medical school, or changing the idea of what sort of lifestyle I want to lead when this journey is over. Maybe I will want a ROAD specialty and just practice medicine, make some money, and spend time with my family. Right now, that's not the case, but maybe it will be in 4 years? Who knows? Maybe I'll fall in love with IM or infectious disease, and just want to be an awesome clinical faculty member at an urban hospital? I could see myself changing my mind that way too, so I think the shorter answer is I'm trying to come in with a blank slate.

I have a pretty laid-back personality and I value my life outside of school. Sinai seemed like people were closer to me in that regard (and that they had way more fun), but maybe I'm making the wrong impression.

I've lived in the suburbs before and it's not essential for me to have constant stimulation. But, I've spent the last few years hopping around between London, Paris, New York, Philadelphia and Boston....so Palo Alto is a serious, serious change for me and I'm just not sure how happy I'd be in that environment. Maybe I'm just being too picky...SF is still close by, although still a trek (but it's not as if Stanford is in the middle of a cornfield in the Mid-west).

FYI, I'm slightly leaning Sinai right now. And realize I just need to make a decision. I loved Stanford so much, it's just hard to give it up for location preferences...but I sometimes feel like it might be the best for me in the end.

 

[pelliper]

I think I met you during Sinai revisit...you were the tall guy, right?

Stanford has a better reputation for basic science research but you really have to ask yourself if this is the path you want to go down. Many of the very top schools encourage people to go into academic medicine and this is strongly reflected in scores of pre-meds who do basic science research in college. But going forward you should think about whether basic science research excites you that much more than clinical research, especially since you will be an MD and not a PhD or MD/PhD. You don't need basic science research to teach and MSSM is a great teaching facility in and of itself. Stanford Hospital & Clinics is weaker for clinical training than Mount Sinai Hospital/Elmhurst Hospital but you also have Santa Clara Valley and Kaiser to rotate through.

In Cali you will definitely need a car by MS3/4 whereas in NYC you could just take the subway everywhere. SF is fairly far away so I doubt you would be going there much, but Palo Alto is a fine suburban area and you will have no problem meeting young professionals there, especially if you also plan on taking business and law classes. I don't think Stanford students are any less outgoing than Sinai students--its just that they have much more class time and thus much less time to socialize. MSSM definitely has a more diverse student body though. In terms of cost, Stanford has MedScholars/TA but it also has higher tuition.

I definitely feel your pain in trying to make a choice, especially since the odds of getting into Stanford are so low that giving up an acceptance there feels like ripping up a winning lottery ticket. I would suggest going with your gut feeling, good luck choosing!

 

[rbsckmnn]

You're leaning towards Sinai, and you want a life outside of school. Which means you'll want a life outside of your career as well. Pull the trigger!

 

[NormaMD]

I am trying to make the same decision. Here are some of my thoughts:

Stanford:
-Much more expensive (depending on aid I guess).
-MedScholars and TAing: these are things I would like to get involved with, and I can imagine that it would be very satisfying to feel like your hard work was helping minimize debt. However, I don't know if I could realistically make up the COA difference doing those things...
-Scholarly Concentrations: the single best thing! I would be really sad to give this up...
-Location: I feel you on this one. Suburbia is really not my thing, and I hate to drive.
-For me, really far from both family and my SO.
-Nicer and newer facilities.
-Students are very passionate about research and Stanford itself.
-The whole rest of the university is at your fingertips, which could be a big plus if you have time to take advantage of it.

Sinai:
-Much cheaper, but no opportunity to earn much back doing research.
-Fewer (almost no) TA opportunities.
-Less class time (I think? it's hard to tell)
-BEST LOCATION EVER!!
-More clinical exposure to crazy things in NYC.
-Close to family, my SO
-I got the feeling that Sinai practices medicine in a more value-driven way?
-The students seem awesome, laid-back
-more big hospitals around to do away rotations at

Maybe current students could give us a better idea of how much class time there is?

 

[onemoretime1986]

I am trying to make the same decision. Here are some of my thoughts:

Stanford:
-Much more expensive (depending on aid I guess).
-MedScholars and TAing: these are things I would like to get involved with, and I can imagine that it would be very satisfying to feel like your hard work was helping minimize debt. However, I don't know if I could realistically make up the COA difference doing those things...
-Scholarly Concentrations: the single best thing! I would be really sad to give this up...
-Location: I feel you on this one. Suburbia is really not my thing, and I hate to drive.
-For me, really far from both family and my SO.
-Nicer and newer facilities.
-Students are very passionate about research and Stanford itself.
-The whole rest of the university is at your fingertips, which could be a big plus if you have time to take advantage of it.

Sinai:
-Much cheaper, but no opportunity to earn much back doing research.
-Fewer (almost no) TA opportunities.
-Less class time (I think? it's hard to tell)
-BEST LOCATION EVER!!
-More clinical exposure to crazy things in NYC.
-Close to family, my SO
-I got the feeling that Sinai practices medicine in a more value-driven way?
-The students seem awesome, laid-back
-more big hospitals around to do away rotations at

Maybe current students could give us a better idea of how much class time there is?

Our pluses and minuses are pretty similar. Where are you leaning as of now? Gosh these decisions are hard.

 

[onemoretime1986]

I think I met you during Sinai revisit...you were the tall guy, right?

Stanford has a better reputation for basic science research but you really have to ask yourself if this is the path you want to go down. Many of the very top schools encourage people to go into academic medicine and this is strongly reflected in scores of pre-meds who do basic science research in college. But going forward you should think about whether basic science research excites you that much more than clinical research, especially since you will be an MD and not a PhD or MD/PhD. You don't need basic science research to teach and MSSM is a great teaching facility in and of itself. Stanford Hospital & Clinics is weaker for clinical training than Mount Sinai Hospital/Elmhurst Hospital but you also have Santa Clara Valley and Kaiser to rotate through.

In Cali you will definitely need a car by MS3/4 whereas in NYC you could just take the subway everywhere. SF is fairly far away so I doubt you would be going there much, but Palo Alto is a fine suburban area and you will have no problem meeting young professionals there, especially if you also plan on taking business and law classes. I don't think Stanford students are any less outgoing than Sinai students--its just that they have much more class time and thus much less time to socialize. MSSM definitely has a more diverse student body though. In terms of cost, Stanford has MedScholars/TA but it also has higher tuition.

I definitely feel your pain in trying to make a choice, especially since the odds of getting into Stanford are so low that giving up an acceptance there feels like ripping up a winning lottery ticket. I would suggest going with your gut feeling, good luck choosing!

Didn't make it to the official revisit actually. Just stayed with a friend and talked with some faculty a few weeks ago.

 

[NormaMD]

Our pluses and minuses are pretty similar. Where are you leaning as of now? Gosh these decisions are hard.

Right now leaning toward Sinai, but it changes every couple of days, haha.

As for the Sinai revisit, I liked it a lot better than the Stanford revisit. It seemed a little more genuine and I felt like a got a better idea of what going to school there would be like.

 

[conrad123]

Pro's for Sinai:

Out of every school I interviewed at, Sinai most exemplified the ideal physician working with and for "the people." The ideal of service. Working with a very diverse, underserved population and living directly (almost) in the community you serve. Being part of the community; not segregated from it. Other, less urban, schools feel like a vacation environment, which some might say is perfect when dealing with all of the work from medical school, but I believe that attitude and mentality will influence how you practice as a doctor. The sense of service and values that was highlighted during the re-visit weekend makes Sinai the most attractive and challenging medical school I considered.

Just a thought...I'm still undecided, but I feel that if I don't choose Sinai it is wimping out, or backing down from a great challenge and adventure.

And from my understanding, Sinai won't close any doors in terms of research and academia if you choose to pursue either.

Best of luck,
Conrad

 

[jbz24]

Hey Norma,

I think I posted a schedule in the Sinai thread. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll re-post it.

 

[NormaMD]

Pro's for Sinai:

Out of every school I interviewed at, Sinai most exemplified the ideal physician working with and for "the people." The ideal of service. Working with a very diverse, underserved population and living directly (almost) in the community you serve. Being part of the community; not segregated from it. Other, less urban, schools feel like a vacation environment, which some might say is perfect when dealing with all of the work from medical school, but I believe that attitude and mentality will influence how you practice as a doctor. The sense of service and values that was highlighted during the re-visit weekend makes Sinai the most attractive and challenging medical school I considered.

Just a thought...I'm still undecided, but I feel that if I don't choose Sinai it is wimping out, or backing down from a great challenge and adventure.

And from my understanding, Sinai won't close any doors in terms of research and academia if you choose to pursue either.

Best of luck,
Conrad

qft!!

 

[mdeast]

Pro's for Sinai:

Out of every school I interviewed at, Sinai most exemplified the ideal physician working with and for "the people." The ideal of service. Working with a very diverse, underserved population and living directly (almost) in the community you serve. Being part of the community; not segregated from it. Other, less urban, schools feel like a vacation environment, which some might say is perfect when dealing with all of the work from medical school, but I believe that attitude and mentality will influence how you practice as a doctor. The sense of service and values that was highlighted during the re-visit weekend makes Sinai the most attractive and challenging medical school I considered.

Just a thought...I'm still undecided, but I feel that if I don't choose Sinai it is wimping out, or backing down from a great challenge and adventure.

And from my understanding, Sinai won't close any doors in terms of research and academia if you choose to pursue either.

Best of luck,
Conrad

Hmmm...did I meet you? I remember talking to someone who was considering U.Vermont...but there might have been two of you. I'm also interested to see where this thread goes. If I get off the waitlist at Stanford I'd have this decision to make too, but a part of me is already thinking about just withdrawing to make this summer less stressful. I'm almost at the point where I've had enough of this process....but I did love Stanford.

 

[aarm08]

qft!!

Norma,

Come to Sinai. Be "counter-culture" like you said during revisit (assuming you're who I think you are...). I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it.

AArm

 

[adele87]

Norma,

Come to Sinai. Be "counter-culture" like you said during revisit (assuming you're who I think you are...). I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it.

AArm

Hey AArm and Norma, I think we may have all hung out during revisit - I know, CREEPY, I apologize - you both have great options but I also hope you come to Sinai! I officially said no to Pitt, yayy

 

[Question123]

I'm going through a similar (albeit slightly different school - UCSF) debate though am leaning towards Sinai... I think that going through this process though I've definitely learned some general things about myself which have brought me to my conclusion.

Overall, I think that you cannot undermine how important life outside of school is. I'm not saying this as in a "go get drunk" or even "experience the opera" sort of way, but essentially making sure that you can still maintain balance in your life regardless of the activity. It was interesting, during my Stanford visit the apartment I stayed in was really nice, but the girl even admitted to thinking the overall campus was "small". For me, this was not a negative... I love outdoors so I think I would've been happy not in a city. However, I think that for someone who does prefer urban life, this could really feel isolating after a while, especially being far away from friends and family. Sometimes its nice to be able to go home w/out 6 hours flying + 3 hours transportation/security... Obviously pittsburg is still far from nyc, but I think the travel is hugely different.

If you are worried about the $, then I don't have much advice. I'm getting pretty little anywhere I go, so for me Sinai is pretty good w/ low COA, but I do remember Stanford seemed really attractive if you did qualify for aid....

As for opportunities, you are obviously a driven, intelligent person. I think that Sinai is a place that anyone who wants can thrive and get a lot of opportunities. I remember this from relook when the guy on panel was talking about doing an away rotation at Stanford for some specific surgery rotation (unsure what)... additionally everyone seemed to be involved in some form of research (varying whether clinical, public health, other) but, again, it probably doesn't have quite the $$ Stanford does to support you, but you probably will find a way.

As for start ups...Palo Alto definitely trumps. But there are a lot of medical startup companies in NJ and CT... I don't know nearly that much about it, but my SO works in healthcare finance so he seems to have a much better idea of what exists.

I cannot remember, but it did seem as though Sinai has opportunities to do MBA at another school... but really don't take my word on that.

Again, overall, I would definitely focus on life/happiness than simply academic ambitions (especially given that these could easily change while your preference for an environment type is less likely to shift). You have awesome choices, so you cannot make a wrong move. I realize how tough this decision is (I recently had someone tell me I was an idiot for my choice), but once its over, you'll be happy!

 

[NormaMD]

Norma,

Come to Sinai. Be "counter-culture" like you said during revisit (assuming you're who I think you are...). I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it.

AArm

Hey AArm and Norma, I think we may have all hung out during revisit - I know, CREEPY, I apologize - you both have great options but I also hope you come to Sinai! I officially said no to Pitt, yayy

Haha yes I am totally who you think I am. Yay Adele I'm excited! Any updates on your status AArm?

 

[LoganLC]

Go to Stanford and don't look back. Seriously.

 

[mdeast]

Go to Stanford and don't look back. Seriously.

Why? Just curious.

 

[lord_jeebus]

If you think you will want to match at one of the top programs in any specialty, you will have much less stress and much better chances coming from Stanford, unless you're certain you'll be in the top 10% of your class at Sinai (and who can be certain of that?).

 

[aarm08]

Haha yes I am totally who you think I am. Yay Adele I'm excited! Any updates on your status AArm?

Leaning pretty strongly towards Sinai right now...just felt like the right place during revisit on so many levels. It would be great if we all ended up there!

 

[mdeast]

Leaning pretty strongly towards Sinai right now...just felt like the right place during revisit on so many levels. It would be great if we all ended up there!

Haha, is it just me...or is everyone and their mother deciding between Sinai and somewhere else on here? lol.

 

[jbz24]

If you think you will want to match at one of the top programs in any specialty, you will have much less stress and much better chances coming from Stanford, unless you're certain you'll be in the top 10% of your class at Sinai (and who can be certain of that?).

Top 10%?? I know you're heavily into everything Cali, but let's not exaggerate that much.

 

[pelliper]

Haha, is it just me...or is everyone and their mother deciding between Sinai and somewhere else on here? lol.

I think it's because Sinai jumped in the US News rankings this year so people who normally wouldn't have even considered Sinai a few years ago are now

 

[lord_jeebus]

Top 10%?? I know you're heavily into everything Cali, but let's not exaggerate that much.

I know a lot of fairly but not particularly bright and hard-working people who went from Stanford (where they aren't ranked but were probably about average) into some ridiculous residency programs. That's my point of reference and I stand by it.

 

[jbz24]

I know a lot of fairly but not particularly bright and hard-working people who went from Stanford (where they aren't ranked but were probably about average) into some ridiculous residency programs. That's my point of reference and I stand by it.

I know Stanford students do well but it's extremely unfair (and completely inaccurate) to say you need to be top 10% to match just as well at Sinai.

 

[lord_jeebus]

I know Stanford students do well but it's extremely unfair (and completely inaccurate) to say you need to be top 10% to match just as well at Sinai.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion (and given the limited data available it certainly is an issue of opinion). What are you basing that assessment on?

I wouldn't say that some people outside the top 10% have no chance at matching at similar programs, but as a whole the next 10% at Sinai will not be able to match at the same caliber of programs as reliably.

 

[jbz24]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion (and given the limited data available it certainly is an issue of opinion). What are you basing that assessment on?

I wouldn't say that some people outside the top 10% have no chance at matching at similar programs, but as a whole the next 10% at Sinai will not be able to match at the same caliber of programs as reliably.

I know enough of my classmate's ranks and where they ended up to know it's false. I also have a few year old pdf of where the bottom quartile (lowest 25%) students ended up. It's a compilation of 2-3 years.

 

[lord_jeebus]

That's a useful list, and I'm sure the OP will appreciate seeing that data.

Personally, I think that those from the bottom 1/4 at Stanford match at significantly more competitive programs. Again, this is all a matter of opinion.

 

[pelliper]

That's a useful list, and I'm sure the OP will appreciate seeing that data.

Personally, I think that those from the bottom 1/4 at Stanford match at significantly more competitive programs. Again, this is all a matter of opinion.

AFAIK there's no "bottom 1/4" at Stanford yet. The entering third-year class will be the first ever to have clinical grades, and my guess is this will not improve the competitiveness for the bottom 1/2 of the class.

As for that Bottom Quartile pdf...how many of those ended up not matching at all?

 

[jbz24]

That's a useful list, and I'm sure the OP will appreciate seeing that data.

Personally, I think that those from the bottom 1/4 at Stanford match at significantly more competitive programs. Again, this is all a matter of opinion.

I'm not arguing that Stanford students do well; they do. I just think it's baseless to say you need to be top 10% to compete with students from Stanford. That pdf I posted had enough top programs scattered throughout from the bottom 25%.

AFAIK there's no "bottom 1/4" at Stanford yet. The entering third-year class will be the first ever to have clinical grades, and my guess is this will not improve the competitiveness for the bottom 1/2 of the class.

As for that Bottom Quartile pdf...how many of those ended up not matching at all?

I have no clue. I didn't compile that pdf or anything, it was just mixed in with the other match lists.

 

[onemoretime1986]

Interesting...so are you at a significant advantage to be at Stanford in terms of residency placement?

My main question was about Stanford's location/student body. I got a better vibe at Sinai, and in reflecting on it...sort of felt like my medical school experience might be more fun there (and in NYC) than it would be in Palo Alto. Am I wrong to assume this? I think all other issues point towards Stanford (research, curriculum, even the very non-competitive environment...it clicked with me)

Yes, I do value my life outside of school. To me, that comes before career (but hopefully, intertwined with it, in a perfect world). I loved mostly everything about Stanford, just thinking about it practically though...it's far from home, it might be hard to meet people who aren't Stanford students, I get the sense the students there seemed like study-buddies rather than people who wanted a life outside of school. I guess it partially stems from the campus being so isolated...like a "bubble" you couldn't escape. I liked that at Sinai you could walk right off campus and be in Central Park away from it all. I'm asking if my fears about this are largely unfounded?

 

[BlueElmo]

Stanford all the way.

 

[jbz24]

Interesting...so are you at a significant advantage to be at Stanford in terms of residency placement?

There's an advantage, I just took issue with how much of an advantage Lord_jeebus said there is.

 

[ButImLETired]

This is actually a far tougher decision than it seems at face value. Sinai is an absolutely incredible school. Stanford is definitely super-academic and super well-known and prestigious, but the location BLOWS. I don't care what people say. Sure, the weather is gorgeous. Sure, the campus is gorgeous. But I don't want to be in med school and feel like I live in a resort, and I don't like that everything around me is owned by Stanford and the only people I see go to Stanford or are multi-millionaires. University Ave has bars? Sure, all of maybe 4, and only Stanford people go there. I got bored of those places within a couple of months. Going to SF is a gigantic PITA (Caltrain stops running pretty early and driving sucks cause there's never any parking) although SF is a fantastic city.

So yeah, location-wise, Sinai wins in every possible way. Their students also seemed way more chill and happy and well-rounded than the Stanford kids, although I did meet a couple of normal Stanford students. One of the big advantages of Stanford (besides the name and the rank, I guess) is the fact that you have an entire university system which can be helpful if you're interested in non-basic science or clinical science research. Also, you get to meet non-med students who are just as bored with Palo Alto as you are, so there's that.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't mind working or retiring around the Stanford area. It's beautiful and super safe and a great place to raise kids (of course, I'd have to pay like 3 mil to have a 2500 square foot place, but you know).

But, if you want to work with disadvantaged populations and never ever drive a car, go to Sinai.

 

[phospho]

There's an advantage, I just took issue with how much of an advantage Lord_jeebus said there is.

My apologies in advance for nitpicking. I tend to do that when I haven't slept in a while.

I'm confused. He insisted atleast 3 times that it's his personal opinion and that your opinion is as good as his. Even went out of his way to tell you that you have a good list and that the OP might find it useful. Why in the world would you even still think about taking issue? Personally, I don't think he could have possibly been more polite.

OP, do yourself a favor and go to Stanford. I also agree with lordjeebus. I don't think he was exaggerating at all. But, that's based on my personal opinion and personal experiences. Anyone else's opinion would be as good as mine

 

[ButImLETired]

Just to be fair, I want to mention something I heard from a doctor just today.

We were talking about USNews rankings and residencies and such, and he told me that he thinks things are going to change in the next few years. Because the number of med school slots is increasing while residency positions are staying the same, getting a residency is going to get harder across the board, especially if you don't want to go into primary care. So, since med schools are already super hard (and moving toward pass/fail preclinicals, which makes it harder to judge students) and there's not much else we can fit to make ourselves more competitive, he said some of the things that only semi-matter now are going to matter way more soon, including reputation of the school. His argument is that when all applicants start looking the same and step 1 scores are high and 3rd year grades are high and there's nothing else to base judgment on, ranking will matter more.

Anyway, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[jbz24]

My apologies in advance for nitpicking. I tend to do that when I haven't slept in a while.

I'm confused. He insisted atleast 3 times that it's his personal opinion and that your opinion is as good as his. Even went out of his way to tell you that you have a good list and that the OP might find it useful. Why in the world would you even still think about taking issue? Personally, I don't think he could have possibly been more polite.

OP, do yourself a favor and go to Stanford. I also agree with lordjeebus. I don't think he was exaggerating at all. But, that's based on my personal opinion and personal experiences. Anyone else's opinion would be as good as mine

My last comment was to the OP because I thought he was responding to my debate. Not that I still take issue. I think it's fine that we have differing opinions, but I don't see anything wrong with adding my own perspective.

 

[krs881]

I was deciding between mt. sinai, cornell and yale, and if it weren't for a few outstanding reasons, I would have gone with sinai for the following reasons:

The attitude of the students at sinai, as one poster said, is in many cases much more about community and patients "the people." The dean, who spoke at the interview day, and a number of students I know (I used to work in the neighborhood and we had interns from sinai) definitely exemplify this. I have a friend who used to work with me at aforementioned public health job, who left to go to Stanford. She has been sad about the lack of interest (particularly in research) in public health, community and social aspects of health -- everything we did at our old job and that Sinai is also great with.

It also comes down to urban vs. suburban, but urban in a REALLY GOOD WAY. Sinai, as opposed to Cornell, is located right on the border of rich and poor new york, power brokers and marginalized, white and black. It is an amazing hospital and community to work in, you see both sides, and most importantly, the inequalities and differences. And they have a much better relationship with their neighborhood than Columbia does. Stanford has a suburban hospital that limits your exposure, people have mentioned that a lot here.

Also, urban vs. rural in terms of lifestyle, activities outside of school. Don't underestimate this, go somewhere that you think you will be happy, in terms of where you live and the other students and opportunities available!

In terms of research, they made a big deal at interviews that Sinai had hugely increased funding (which explains jump in rankings) and also means that for at least the next few years they have a lot of research going on. I really don't think you are at a disadvantage, particularly if for other reasons you'll be happier at Sinai.

 

[ApoK]

I know a lot of fairly but not particularly bright and hard-working people who went from Stanford (where they aren't ranked but were probably about average) into some ridiculous residency programs. That's my point of reference and I stand by it.

So, you've said HMS almost gives you a golden ticket. Now you're saying the same is basically true for Stanford? Does this also apply to schools like Hopkins, Duke, Penn and Yale... or do you feel this is really only a Stanford/HMS thing?

I'm not trying to argue. I'm actually just curious for your opinion.

 

[ApoK]

Just to be fair, I want to mention something I heard from a doctor just today.

We were talking about USNews rankings and residencies and such, and he told me that he thinks things are going to change in the next few years. Because the number of med school slots is increasing while residency positions are staying the same, getting a residency is going to get harder across the board, especially if you don't want to go into primary care. So, since med schools are already super hard (and moving toward pass/fail preclinicals, which makes it harder to judge students) and there's not much else we can fit to make ourselves more competitive, he said some of the things that only semi-matter now are going to matter way more soon, including reputation of the school. His argument is that when all applicants start looking the same and step 1 scores are high and 3rd year grades are high and there's nothing else to base judgment on, ranking will matter more.

Anyway, take it with a grain of salt.

Makes sense. Reputation already matters quite a bit. It's pretty much impossible to go into Derm at HMS from somewhere like Wright State or even a reputable state school like OSU. I know this is an exaggerated example but people are deluding themselves if they think things aren't a little easier for top 10 med students.

 

[mdeast]

Maybe Harvard and Stanford are different, but I've always been painted a different picture from Penn Med students (#2 on US News).

Most have told me that the Penn name is mainly helpful if you don't do well in medical school. So suppose you're at the bottom of your class and don't get a particularly good score on your Step I. The Penn name will give you an edge at certain programs because they love being able to say they have Penn Med interns in their program...so next year's recruits can see what "top" med schools they recruit from. To get into a top program, you still have to be top of your class at Penn and take extra time. I can't tell you how many derm applicants from UPenn go on the 5 year research plan to make themselves more competitive.

For most other situations, it's more significant what you do in medical school (the opportunities available, how you take advantage of them, how good your grades are) than the fact that you went to Penn....so people stress about doing well there just as much as they do at a lower ranked school.

I'm not saying all these schools don't give you some edge....but, again, we're comparing a place that is currently ranked #11 vs. the #18 school. So, even the argument about US News ranking becomes less significant. I think there is a prestige difference, but to be honest, most docs I've talked to all think very highly of Sinai. Here's what the former head of Cancer Biology and the new Stem Cell Center at Penn told me when I told him I was probably going there: "Sinai is excellent, both clinically and in research". I have a copy of the email in my inbox, so they are straight from the horses mouth. When I told him where I was waitlisted, his response: "Penn and Stanford are good too." If you want to do well, you can do so at either institution.

I think it's more of a question of fit...are all the opportunities you really want easily accessible at Sinai vs. Stanford? If they aren't, are there enough opportunities at Sinai to justify picking the school based on the fact that it seems you'd be happier both socially and geographically? I'd venture to guess that it might be easier to do research at Stanford (I interviewed there, and am waitlisted), and the curriculum there was just sooo, so awesome...but that's a question I've been asking myself as well. Would I really want to live in the suburbs for 4 years when I could get an almost equally great education and live in Manhattan?

Which is more important...a slight, potentially insignificant edge to advance your career or your happiness outside of school?

 

[lord_jeebus]

So, you've said HMS almost gives you a golden ticket. Now you're saying the same is basically true for Stanford? Does this also apply to schools like Hopkins, Duke, Penn and Yale... or do you feel this is really only a Stanford/HMS thing?

I'm not trying to argue. I'm actually just curious for your opinion.

I don't know as many people who went to those schools and my perspective is more limited. Based on the little I know, I would encourage someone to attend Hopkins, Duke, or Penn for the same reasons, and probably Yale as well.

 

[lord_jeebus]

but, again, we're comparing a place that is currently ranked #11 vs. the #18 school.

I think this says more about usnews methodology than it does about actual prestige.

Here's an anecdote. My residency program is fairly selective - less than 20% of applicants get an interview. My program director definitely considers Stanford one of the few best schools and seems to offer interviews to almost everyone who applied from there; Sinai is seen as a very good school but only a fraction of applicants from there will be offered one.

 

[loljkttyl]

I have a lot of connections in Philadelphia, New York, and Boston (friends, family, etc.) and I sort of strongly prefer the urban environment to the suburban one...I felt like the students seemed a little bit lame [at Stanford], as if no one really wanted to have fun in medical school. I also got an isolation vibe from the campus...it felt weird knowing that patients would have to take a ride down a resort-like entranceway to get to an isolated hospital...why wasn't this placed in a populated area off-campus to better serve the community?...Sinai definitely wins on location. I think I clicked better with the students, as they seemed a bit more social/outgoing/having a life outside of medicine than the Stanford students I met...I loved the liberal arts feel and felt at home with many of the people I met. It's only a few hour plane ride from Pittsburgh (my parents may be moving to DC or Philly, so also close). I also loved Elmhurst Hospital option...most diverse zip code in America? Heck yeah! That sounds like an adventure.

You should definitely go to the school where you can see yourself happier for the next four years. In your particular case, sounds like you got a better vibe from Sinai and NYC. During med school, location is KEY...you want to be a cool location with a solid support network of friends and family. Go to Sinai!

I have a pretty laid-back personality and I value my life outside of school. Sinai seemed like people were closer to me in that regard (and that they had way more fun), but maybe I'm making the wrong impression.

You made the right impression Camp Sinai = FUN!

 

[mdeast]

I think this says more about usnews methodology than it does about actual prestige.

Here's an anecdote. My residency program is fairly selective - less than 20% of applicants get an interview. My program director definitely considers Stanford one of the few best schools and seems to offer interviews to almost everyone who applied from there; Sinai is seen as a very good school but only a fraction of applicants from there will be offered one.

Isn't that sort of complicated by California bias? (You're at UCSD, right?) I'd imagine there aren't that many people from Sinai who would even apply there...most students choose to stay on the East Coast. When you're getting 10 applicants from Stanford (who probably all grew up in California) vs. 3 from Sinai, it's sort of hard to compare the success of those applicants based on the school they attended alone.

I'd imagine a director at UCSD would interview more Stanford kids because he probably has had more of them in his program (he knows less about Sinai). The same might go for an East Coast residency director. He knows more about Sinai than Stanford, and might trust applicants from there more.

 

[ButImLETired]

Isn't that sort of complicated by California bias? (You're at UCSD, right?) I'd imagine there aren't that many people from Sinai who would even apply there...most students choose to stay on the East Coast. When you're getting 10 applicants from Stanford (who probably all grew up in California) vs. 3 from Sinai, it's sort of hard to compare the success of those applicants based on the school they attended alone.

I'd imagine a director at UCSD would interview more Stanford kids because he probably has had more of them in his program (he knows less about Sinai). The same might go for an East Coast residency director. He knows more about Sinai than Stanford, and might trust applicants from there more.

Well yeah, and people in CA have this weird obsession with Stanford. I mean, I guess it makes sense, besides their awesome state schools and CalTech (which is only relevant to the super science-y types) Stanford is basically...it, on the west coast and really most of the left side of the country. The east coast has so many great schools that the "oohs and aahs" of Stanford are drowned by those for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc etc. If you live anywhere on the left side, your parents want you to go to Stanford when you grow up.

So yeah, I'm not surprised a UCSD program director loves Stanford kids. Come to the east coast and things are more complicated than that.

 

[jbz24]

I think that's also part of my problem. When I see matches to Stanford, I think that's a great match but easily overshadowed by MGH/BWH/JHH/UCSF/Penn/Columbia/Duke/WashU. When I see matches to UCLA, UCSD, maybe UW and OHSU, I think even less of those matches and think much more of Sinai/Cornell/NYU/Yale/BID. I would even consider Einstein equivalent in some respects. Again, regional bias plays a big role when matching and east coast people almost never see eye to eye with west coast people when looking at matches.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Isn't that sort of complicated by California bias? (You're at UCSD, right?) I'd imagine there aren't that many people from Sinai who would even apply there...most students choose to stay on the East Coast. When you're getting 10 applicants from Stanford (who probably all grew up in California) vs. 3 from Sinai, it's sort of hard to compare the success of those applicants based on the school they attended alone.

I'd imagine a director at UCSD would interview more Stanford kids because he probably has had more of them in his program (he knows less about Sinai). The same might go for an East Coast residency director. He knows more about Sinai than Stanford, and might trust applicants from there more.

The PD extends the same level of preference to Harvard, Hopkins, and a couple of other schools - we really don't care which part of the country you're from and we usually match at least half from out of state (we're currently about 60% OOS), which about matches the proportion of applications coming from out of state.

We actually have no Stanford grads in the program currently so it's not a familiarity issue. One of our senior faculty is actually the former program director from Sinai so we know quite a bit about that institution, and conversely their current program director and chairman are very familiar with us (based on my interview there).