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so I have tried looking for this all over the place on both SDN and google but I could not find it

I wanted to know what is the starting salary of psychiatrists fresh out of residency in CA

there are some factors that I heard that play a role in the starting salary such as:

1.) some places pay less but have bonuses and other incentives to make up for the lower salary
2.) general psychiatry pays less than child psychiatry but how much of a difference
3.) Kaiser pays more but I heard also works psychiatrists to the bone (correct me if I am wrong)
4.) I heard Los Angeles and San Francisco are saturated, are most job offers in these areas now based on 10+ years experience or academia
5.) What cities in CA are pretty good for jobs for starting psychiatrists?

Any answers would be awesome. Links to some psychiatrist salaries in CA would be great too
 
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thanks Fonzie, are these normally on 40 hr schedules, are starting psychiatrists expected to put in more hours like around 50ish?

I am guessing the 170k is more for the saturated areas?
 

F0nzie

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40 hours. I found a few underserved sites that pushed 260 for a 50 hours.

Board certification also added a nice 10k at some sites.
 
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I see, is the job market pretty tough in CA for psychiatrists? I know my friends in pharmacy and dentistry are forced to lived in very very rural areas to make a good living.

do you know any links where I can know more about job offerings/salaries in cities?

sorry that I spelled psychiatrists wrong in the title of the thread
 

Leo Aquarius

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... Board certification also added a nice 10k at some sites.
Wait a sec, this means there are places that will hire a Board eligible psychiatrist? Only a 10K difference? Then it makes no sense to spend another 2 years in residency if I can go now and work for 10K less than what I would earn if I were to finish residency??? I must be missing something.
 

F0nzie

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you have to had finished residency to be board eligible.
And apparently now you lose your board eligibility status after completing residency if you don't take the boards within 7 years of the start of your residency
 

MacDonaldTriad

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so I have tried looking for this all over the place on both SDN and google but I could not find it

I wanted to know what is the starting salary of psychiatrists fresh out of residency in CA

there are some factors that I heard that play a role in the starting salary such as:

1.) some places pay less but have bonuses and other incentives to make up for the lower salary
2.) general psychiatry pays less than child psychiatry but how much of a difference
3.) Kaiser pays more but I heard also works psychiatrists to the bone (correct me if I am wrong)
4.) I heard Los Angeles and San Francisco are saturated, are most job offers in these areas now based on 10+ years experience or academia
5.) What cities in CA are pretty good for jobs for starting psychiatrists?

Any answers would be awesome. Links to some psychiatrist salaries in CA would be great too
I doubt that anyone outside of psychiatry would agree that psychiatry is “saturated” anywhere. Pay might be higher in NYC than upstate NY because of the cost of living, but probably not nearly enough to keep the same buying power. California will pay you more to live in the middle of nowhere, but you have to decide if it is worth it to you. Some people like the outdoor life. If San Francisco or Los Angeles is your goal, you will find work and feed yourself just fine. If your goal is to live cheap and pay down loans during an austerity sprint, go rural. Be sure to save a lot of down payment for real estate when you do make a move to the big city. Moving to an urban setting and renting would be missing the target of your austerity efforts in my opinion.
 

vistaril

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Wait a sec, this means there are places that will hire a Board eligible psychiatrist? Only a 10K difference? Then it makes no sense to spend another 2 years in residency if I can go now and work for 10K less than what I would earn if I were to finish residency??? I must be missing something.
most people take the boards a few months to several months after finishing their program. So for many people a good part of their first year(some slackers even beyond this) they are not board certified but rather board eligible.
 

Doctor Bagel

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Just another way to screw us.
And yet we're likely deemed unprofessional for questioning their motives. The part that amazes me is that we're living in a world with more and more providers who do what we do with less training, and the our board and educational system is cracking down on us. NPs don't have to put up with this stuff.
 

OldPsychDoc

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And yet we're likely deemed unprofessional for questioning their motives. The part that amazes me is that we're living in a world with more and more providers who do what we do with less training, and the our board and educational system is cracking down on us. NPs don't have to put up with this stuff.
Hold on there...isn't the very nature of being in a profession that one engages in self-regulation, life-long learning, and peer review?

On one hand, it seems that every NP, PA, or PP thread on this board devolves into a "We have more training" micturition match-- yet now you seem to imply that it is an unjust expectation to demonstrate that by maintaining certification? What are you all saying here?
 

Doctor Bagel

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Hold on there...isn't the very nature of being in a profession that one engages in self-regulation, life-long learning, and peer review?

On one hand, it seems that every NP, PA, or PP thread on this board devolves into a "We have more training" micturition match-- yet now you seem to imply that it is an unjust expectation to demonstrate that by maintaining certification? What are you all saying here?
And there it is -- questioning the system is unprofessional. I guess I would argue that the endless push toward more documentation, more credentialing and more testing (and yes, more fees) is potentially problematic. Now, one inclusion in professionalism according to the ABPN is engagement in the APA -- you've got to join their club to be professional. From a psychological perspective, there's a feeling that you have to continue to pursue further credentialing (not further knowledge) and that what you've accomplished is never good enough. Graduating from medical school is worthless without completing residency. Completing residency is worthless without obtaining board certification. It's demoralizing. Admittedly, I'm currently especially annoyed by the huge sum of money I have to pay the ABPN next month to prove my worthiness -- after already shelling out a huge sum of money to go to medical school and completing (almost) 4 years of residency training.

As for documenting training, I think from a ongoing PR prospective, it's a losing battle. We seem like elitist jerks when we mention that, and the public just doesn't care. They're not convinced that more training equals better treatment, and the media is endlessly quoting studies showing that NPs provide as good care as physicians. Mind you, I haven't looked at the studies and don't know what they really show, but this is the report you get on them when you look at places like msnbc. So our next task is actually showing that our greater training matters, not documenting our training.
 
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OldPsychDoc

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And there it is -- questioning the system is unprofessional. I guess I would argue that the endless push toward more documentation, more credentialing and more testing (and yes, more fees) is potentially problematic. Now, one inclusion in professionalism according to the ABPN is engagement in the APA -- you've got to join their club to be professional..
Where do you get that idea? That has no bearing on Board certification.
 

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The board exam has no bearing on appropriate knowledge being applied nor does it demonstrate "excellence" in a field. It's a multiple choice exam set-up for those who like to take exams and is developed for those who good standardized test takers. Furthermore, there is no excuse for an 8 hour exam nor the cost justified.

Ask yourself this, why is the head of the board listing himself as CEO and President? Doesn't sound much like a "peer reviewing" process dedicated towards knowledge and education, and what are they doing with all of those profits? Why is there a need for such large profits?

Lastly, I question - what are they doing with the money to "represent" me?

Because they hold the power and behold, upon the ivory tower, they are untouchable by the design through whatever self-regulatory means they'd like to enact.
 

freaker

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most people take the boards a few months to several months after finishing their program. So for many people a good part of their first year(some slackers even beyond this) they are not board certified but rather board eligible.
I don't know if I'd use the term "slacker." When you're moving a family of 5 or 6 across the country and working your way into a new system, it's a lot to ask of an individual to study for and take a board exam in the midst of all of that. Moreover, you have to pay for that board exam while you're still a resident. If you have an extra $2500 dollars just burning a hole in your pocket while you are also saving to move and for the first month's rent, more power to you and you've got a system down better than I. You can only take boards once per year--in September. So for all residents, it's a grand total of 2 months after finishing residency/fellowship to take boards. Most people who I know who are moving either wait a year to take it or live on credit and don't start a new job until after September.

Why it costs $2500 to take a standardized exam on a computer is beyond me, for the record.
 
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F0nzie

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Why it costs $2500 to take a standardized exam on a computer is beyond me, for the record.
800,000 board certified doctors in the US. Assume each test costs $2500. 800,000 x 2,500 = $2,000,000,000.

This is a billion dollar private industry marketing the competence of every physician in the US. There are no competitors to drive the cost down or offer more flexibility.

2 ways for the industry to maximize profitability: 1. Raising the costs.
2.Tightening the leash to increase revenue.
 
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notdeadyet

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800,000 board certified doctors in the US. Assume each test costs $2500. 800,000 x 2,500 = $2,000,000,000.

This is a billion dollar private industry marketing the competence of every physician in the US.
$2 billion dollar industry? That's pretty wonky math there.

Assuming 800K physicans with a 35 year career and you've got about 23K board certs per year. That comes to a $57 million dollar industry. It's a lot of money, but it ain't a billion dollar industry.
 

Shikima

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I don't know if I'd use the term "slacker." When you're moving a family of 5 or 6 across the country and working your way into a new system, it's a lot to ask of an individual to study for and take a board exam in the midst of all of that. Moreover, you have to pay for that board exam while you're still a resident. If you have an extra $2500 dollars just burning a hole in your pocket while you are also saving to move and for the first month's rent, more power to you and you've got a system down better than I. You can only take boards once per year--in September. So for all residents, it's a grand total of 2 months after finishing residency/fellowship to take boards. Most people who I know who are moving either wait a year to take it or live on credit and don't start a new job until after September.

Why it costs $2500 to take a standardized exam on a computer is beyond me, for the record.
Preach it brother!
 
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Doctor Bagel

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Where do you get that idea? That has no bearing on Board certification.
You're right -- that's not there with MOC stuff. With my training, one component listed under professionalism is engagement with the psychiatric association, which was pointed out to me by one of my attendings who was annoyed by that inclusion. I thought it was a national definition and not one created locally.

I do think, though, that your earlier replies evidenced the idea that one is potentially unprofessional by being unhappy with this endless credentialing system. In medicine, we're taught to be compliant in all things and any questioning of the system is generally viewed as bad behavior.

Anyway, getting back to the board stuff, yeah, who has that money sitting around for the licensing exam? I'm going to have to put mine on my credit card.
 

F0nzie

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Anyway, getting back to the board stuff, yeah, who has that money sitting around for the licensing exam? I'm going to have to put mine on my credit card.
4th year to attending was a tough transition. I saw a ton of money leave my bank account after delay in 1st paycheck, child care fees, moving expenses, new rent deposits, getting malpractice, renewing license and DEA, the private practice overhead, higher professional fees... I haven't even signed up for the boards yet.
 
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feel free to talk about the board exams/board eligibility ($2500 for a board exam, that makes $275 for a MCAT exam a complete joke)

but if anybody has more info on psychiatry salaries and job market in CA, particularly the urban centers in all the sub-specialties of psych that would be awesome (exlcuding prison and VA psychiatry as those jobs are difficult to come by)
 

Shikima

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CA will pretty much be the same as the rest of the country within a +/- 20k range. Just that your housing, taxes, insurance, etc will all be more expensive. Reimbursement rates don't care what the cost of living is.
 
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