State licence and NRMP match violation

[fred 21]

New to this web site. Hope someone can help me out. Maybe someone who has been in this situation.

I am not training where I originally matched via the NRMP. The NRMP decided what I did was a violation of the match agreement.

Now, I am applying for a state licence and there are a lot of questions about my history like... have I been kicked out of a program or been suspended from this or that? but nothing specific to the Match. I don't want to be deceitful by not putting this in the application, if this is something the state licensing board would want to know, but I don't want to draw unnecassary attention to myself and get "red flagged" for the rest of my career by putting something they don't care about.

Does that make sense? Not trying to be sneaky, I just want to do the right thing.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
fred

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[Winged Scapula]

New to this web site. Hope someone can help me out. Maybe someone who has been in this situation.

I am not training where I originally matched via the NRMP. The NRMP decided what I did was a violation of the match agreement.

Now, I am applying for a state licence and there are a lot of questions about my history like... have I been kicked out of a program or been suspended from this or that? but nothing specific to the Match. I don't want to be deceitful by not putting this in the application, if this is something the state licensing board would want to know, but I don't want to draw unnecassary attention to myself and get "red flagged" for the rest of my career by putting something they don't care about.

Does that make sense? Not trying to be sneaky, I just want to do the right thing.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
fred

Well, since you weren't kicked out of the program you originally matched to, it doesn't seem to follow that you need to reveal this for your license.

 

[wook]

New to this web site. Hope someone can help me out. Maybe someone who has been in this situation.

I am not training where I originally matched via the NRMP. The NRMP decided what I did was a violation of the match agreement.

Now, I am applying for a state licence and there are a lot of questions about my history like... have I been kicked out of a program or been suspended from this or that? but nothing specific to the Match. I don't want to be deceitful by not putting this in the application, if this is something the state licensing board would want to know, but I don't want to draw unnecassary attention to myself and get "red flagged" for the rest of my career by putting something they don't care about.

Does that make sense? Not trying to be sneaky, I just want to do the right thing.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
fred

I think Kimberli is right, but this is something that you don't want to come back and bite you on the arse. You really need to speak to someone who is familiar with the legalities. A lawyer who specializes in medical law and licensing would be the person to provide the best insight.


Wook

 

[usnavdoc]

I think Kimberli is right, but this is something that you don't want to come back and bite you on the arse. You really need to speak to someone who is familiar with the legalities. A lawyer who specializes in medical law and licensing would be the person to provide the best insight.


Wook

Why would he need to waste time and money on a lawyer...NRMP has nothing to do with the legalities of state licensing.

 

[RadGirl]

If they don't ask you the question, then it's not something that they care about. Answer the questions you are asked honestly and that's it.

 

[3dtp]

If they don't ask you the question, then it's not something that they care about. Answer the questions you are asked honestly and that's it.

Agreed. My program violated the match. It got fixed. No state has asked me about the NRMP at all. And as far as I'm concerned, the match doesn't give a rat's about you either, as long as they can keep all the programs in line and keep their collective hands in your wallets.

Vive la France! Vive la Liberte!

 

[mig26x]

talk to a lawyer.

 

[zinjanthropus]

talk to a lawyer.

agreed - find a lawyer to review the question

 

[gwen]

as long as you are answering the questions on the state licensure application correctly/honestly, you should be fine. i also didn't go to my original residency and therefore "violated" the nrmp match, but when i applied for my state licensure, none of the questions really asked about that in particular.

 

[Whodathunkit]

Not trying to be sneaky, I just want to do the right thing.

The right thing would have been to go to the program that you matched at like the rest of us do. Even if it's not our #1, or even #10.

Although it's FAR from perfect, the match system is there for a reason.

 

[fred 21]

great, thank you for your responses. anyone else?

 

[gwen]

if that isn't the dumbest thing i've heard so far. dude, some people change their mind about their field of interest or have family issues or location issues. i'd rather violate the NRMP rules than be stuck in a field i don't care for, for the rest of my life. if NRMP was so great, why don't engineers or lawyers use it?

the main reason for the match is to make life easier during the application process and match itself. they don't give a rat's a$$ about what you do after that.

The right thing would have been to go to the program that you matched at like the rest of us do. Even if it's not our #1, or even #10.

Although it's FAR from perfect, the match system is there for a reason.

 

[f_w]

I am not training where I originally matched via the NRMP. The NRMP decided what I did was a violation of the match agreement.
.
.
Does that make sense? Not trying to be sneaky, I just want to do the right thing.

Answer any question truthfully according to the meaning of the words in ordinary english language.

They will not ask about the NRMP specifically, however there is typically a question along the lines of 'have you ever been disciplined or excluded by a professional organization' and 'has ever a complaint about unprofessional conduct been lodged against you'. If that is the case, you might indeed want to talk to a attorney familiar with medical licensing matters.
Check out the NRMP match violation policy. They do send a letter about your 'unprofessional conduct' to a number of places.

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/policies/violations.html
(a)The Final Report will be delivered to:
(1) the applicant's medical school official, with a request that the report be placed in the applicant's permanent file
(2) the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates if the applicant is a student/graduate of a foreign medical school
(3) the NRMP institutional officials and directors of the programs included in the applicant's final rank order list in the current matching year
(4) the NRMP institutional official and the program director of the program to which the applicant switched (if known)
(5) the party who originally reported the violation
(6) the NRMP Executive Committee
(7) the American Board of Medical Specialties
(8) the applicant's residency program director if the violation occurred in a fellowship match
(9) the Federation of State Medical Boards if the applicant is to be permanently identified as a match violator or has been permanently barred from future NRMP matches
(10) any parties whom the NRMP has determined are relevant to its investigation.

So, even if you don't say something about it, it might pop up in the future (e.g. by your medical school registrar answering 'yes' to the 'has there ever been a complaint against the applicant' question.). Doesn't mean that you have to go ahead and tell them if they don't ask, just make sure you have a good answer if it ever comes up.

 

[Whodathunkit]

if that isn't the dumbest thing i've heard so far. dude, some people change their mind about their field of interest or have family issues or location issues. i'd rather violate the NRMP rules than be stuck in a field i don't care for, for the rest of my life. if NRMP was so great, why don't engineers or lawyers use it?

the main reason for the match is to make life easier during the application process and match itself. they don't give a rat's a$$ about what you do after that.

And in actuality, it further opens the flood gates of compliance to adhere to the match itself. Everyone can find a reason to not go to where the matched(especially if it's not their top choice). Hence, you do not rank anyplace that you would not want to go to.

Now, in extenuating circumstances(such as death of loved one, sickness, etc), there has to be some type of give. Otherwise, just because you decided that "field of interest" isn't for you...or you just don't care for it, is no excuse to violate the match.

And it's not fair to the person who would have happily taken that spot had it been available(they were ranked #22, instead of #21).

Hell...lets just do away with the match. Let everyone fend for themselves. I'm sure people would love to get pressured into taking a position for fear that if they didnt accept it, they would offer it to someone else. Or better yet...let's let the applicant take the the position and then a few months(or weeks) prior to working, refuse to work there...as he's got a better offer.

Yeah..that's what happens with engineers and lawyers.

 

[gwen]

i would be perfectly happy without the nrmp. has anyone noticed that we doctors are the only dumb ones to allow such a thing to happen? there is no other profession that is subjected to such a rule. they basically take all our money and then punish us for changing our mind about OUR lives.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind about your profession or field of interest. when i had this dilemma about switching from pmr to IM, i spoke with the nrmp people and they totally agreed with me about our right to change our mind. the lady said that nrmp is there just to protect the contracts for the sake of legality and keeping track of who goes where - which, btw, they just created the match violation clause the year i switched.

yes, there are other people who would love to take the spot you chose to give up, but its not like we made the decision without thinking when ranking a certain place one or two or that we were trying to be mean to the other people who want that spot - i honestly thought that pmr was for me from my brief rotations during med school. life experiences change people. i ended up loving my IM prelim year and decided it was more for me. i contacted my pmr hospital (my number one choice) and let them know way ahead of time and they found someone else. they were very understanding as well. i would hate to be in pmr right now because some random person at NRMP thought i was being "bad". i think that the match violation law is ridiculous - no one should be subjected to it! it should also take into consideration people who decide to change cities because of family, sickness, etc.

if having the right to choose my field means having to "fend for myself", then so be it. just like the lawyers and engineers, who seem to be doing just fine, last time i checked.

and btw, there can still be an NRMP and a match for med students/residents without the match violation clause as it was some years ago.

 

[qwijiboo]

Hi,
I'm not a medical student, but my significant other is. She matched in a different state, and we both want to be together. I applied for a PhD in that area, but got rejected. Is there any way she could be released from the contract with NRMP so she can re-match in the same area as I am?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hi,
I'm not a medical student, but my significant other is. She matched in a different state, and we both want to be together. I applied for a PhD in that area, but got rejected. Is there any way she could be released from the contract with NRMP so she can re-match in the same area as I am?

Well, she can't "rematch" because the match is over.

She can asked to be released from her contract, although they do not have to honor it, since she obviously ranked programs knowing there was a possibility that you wouldn't get into a PhD program in that area. However, they aren't inhuman and might very well let her out of the agreement - she needs to contact both NRMP and the program she matched into.

Bigger question is what will she do? Can she find another position in the area you are in at this late date? Or is she considering taking the year off and reapplying next year? She will not be allowed to go through the NRMP if she breaks her contract unless NRMP agrees not to hold her to her match agreement.

 

[bulgethetwine]

The right thing would have been to go to the program that you matched at like the rest of us do. Even if it's not our #1, or even #10.

Although it's FAR from perfect, the match system is there for a reason.

Right. And you should never question authority, or forget that the match and legislators are looking out for you the individual.

The above poster obviously couldn't resist taking a stab at someone who had the resiliance and initiative to work the system and play the game. You MUST be the exact type of personality that has made the medical field increasingly difficult to work in due to the over-zealous, politically-driven, politically-correct environment.

Fatty McFatty Pants.

 

[MD Dreams]

Hi,
I'm not a medical student, but my significant other is. She matched in a different state, and we both want to be together. I applied for a PhD in that area, but got rejected. Is there any way she could be released from the contract with NRMP so she can re-match in the same area as I am?

NRMP states that they will release you of the contract if you can do the following:

"The burden shall be on the requestor to demonstrate serious hardship. For purposes of the waiver process, the term serious hardship means the significant adversity that honoring the match would bear upon the requestor's case."

I would think being away from one's spouse would qualify for this, especially if you have children. If she really want to get out of her contract, the best thing is to get the PD's permission and then file a petition with NRMP for waiver and let them know the PD is ok with it. But Dr. Cox is correct, she may not be able to get a spot somewhere else this year.

As with regards to the whole NRMP thing, I must admit that it would be very nice to be able to switch specialties/programs whenever we wanted. However, at the same time, it is a great relief to know that after the match, a program can't just change their mind about us without a seriously valid reason that the NRMP with approve, especially while we wait for out contracts to arrive in the mail. Just as we can't backstab them, they can't backstab us.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

i ended up loving my IM prelim year and decided it was more for me. i contacted my pmr hospital (my number one choice) and let them know way ahead of time and they found someone else. they were very understanding as well.

Just want to point out that if you match into an advanced (PGY-2) program and change your mind before Jan 15th, you can be released from your match without a violation:

From the NRMP Waiver Policy:
"An applicant who matched to an advanced position or a fellowship position also may request a waiver if the applicant has elected to change specialties, provided the waiver is requested no later than the January 15 prior to the start of training in the advanced or fellowship program and provided the program director consents to the waiver."

 

[Duckie24]

Just want to point out that if you match into an advanced (PGY-2) program and change your mind before Jan 15th, you can be released from your match without a violation:

When are contracts for advanced programs typically signed, at the same time as PGY-1 or at a later date?

 

[blackbird03]

Is it a match violation if you decide to change residencies based on family circumstances?

Is it a match violation if you find another resident to trade spots with you for residency?

 

[MD Dreams]

Is it a match violation if you decide to change residencies based on family circumstances?

Is it a match violation if you find another resident to trade spots with you for residency?

Anytime the NRMP does NOT officially waive a matched position, it is a match violation, no matter what!

To Duckie 24, advanced programs are signed the same time as categorical programs

To ProgramDirector, thanks, I did not know that!