States where it's illegal for nurses to be called DOCTOR (Take action now!)

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Would you volunteer to contact your state representatives?

  • Yes, I'd like for it to be illegal in my state as well for DNPs to be called doctors

    Votes: 171 85.1%
  • No, I will just continue to B!&# online and not take any real action.

    Votes: 17 8.5%
  • I have no idea what this is all about :-@

    Votes: 13 6.5%

  • Total voters
    201

doctorperez

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According to the Pearson report - there are currently 7 states [Georgia, Illinois, Maine, Missouri, Ohio, Oklahoma, and Oregon] which have statutes or regulations prohibiting a nurse practitioner (NP) or other doctorally prepared health professional from using the title "Doctor.[1]

Florida makes the practitioner display the actual tranining/license they work under in visible badges.

Now it is at the state level that we need to be focusing our efforts.

We need to start contacting our state representatives on a "regular" basis so that the same legislation of these seven states also takes place in every other state of the union and even in Puerto Rico, yes sir!

I personally volunteer to do precisely this in my state (Florida)

Who will volunteer to contact their representatives in their own states?

(IT'S EASY I CAN SHOW YOU HOW!)


Would you follow me in ceasing to only whine about your frustrations online and actually taking actions to protect patients and medicine in general?





1.Pearson L. The Pearson Report. Am J Nurs Pract. 2007;11:2.

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I'd be willing, but I'm in MT, where NPs have fully independent practice rights so might not get much traction. I'll give it a shot anyway.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I'd be willing, but I'm in MT, where NPs have fully independent practice rights so might not get much traction. I'll give it a shot anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even an NP with independent practice rights isn't allowed to introduce herself as doctor.
 
can you just post in the forum, instead of having every member contact you privately no one has time to take extra steps in contacting members to contact state legislators
 
I'm in ... when do you show us how? +1 on whoever said just to post it in here.
 
I never said I would contact anyone by private message.

I'd been busy and hadn't been able to post back.

There's no mistery to it! The idea is to contact each state congressmen to express our concerns and ask for legislation to make it illegal for DNPs to be called doctors in the remaining states of the union - including Puerto Rico. And to ask our friends, colleagues, family to do the same. The more people we can have raising awareness at the state level the better!

That is what I plan to do in my state and I'm hoping you will realize we can amount some substantial political pressure to get this done and jump on board.

I believe this is the most effective and trascendental way to do something against the current potential degrading of our profession.


Would one of the users who voted yes to help, please draft a sample letter we can all use to contact our congressmen?


Someone more creative than me can also come up with a really catchy siggy we can all use on our SDN signatures, so that as we participate in other forum subsections we can point people in this direction and enlist them in our efforts.




I'm a go for Tejas !!!

Ok Buddy,

Thanks for volunteering here is the contact info for the state of Texas house of representatives and senate.

Just find your congressmen by county, etc and find their contact information

http://www.house.state.tx.us/members/welcome.php

http://www.senate.state.tx.us/75r/senate/Members.htm


If you come up with a decent sample letter, please post it so we can all use it.

BTW, they [congressmen] have email, fax and regular mail contact info. In my opinion, if we can send actual physical letters hand signed, it will be much better...

If for some reason you can't send a physical letter, at least send a fax or an email...this is no time to take the easy route peeps.


DP
 
can you just post in the forum, instead of having every member contact you privately no one has time to take extra steps in contacting members to contact state legislators
Agreed.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but even an NP with independent practice rights isn't allowed to introduce herself as doctor.


They can't in one of the seven states I listed above

However, They can everywhere else!!

Would you join us in contacting your state congressmen to ask to make it illegal for DNPs to call themselves doctor?
 
There is much easier way of doing this.

Step 1:
Find Elected Officials

Step 2:
Select State

Step 3:
Click on the official(s) you want to contact

Step 4:
Click on 'contact' tab
- Go to website; or
- Contact via Web Form - compose your own letter - delivery method by email, printed letter or fax

Step 5:
Send letter
 
There is much easier way of doing this.

Step 1:
Find Elected Officials

Step 2:
Select State

Step 3:
Click on the official(s) you want to contact

Step 4:
Click on 'contact' tab
- Go to website; or
- Contact via Web Form - compose your own letter - delivery method by email, printed letter or fax

Step 5:
Send letter




Unfortunately that link is good for congressmen at the federal level, not the state level.

It's at the state level where legislation is made to regulate the practice of medicine.

If you find an easier form to contact state congressmen would you let us know?

In the mean time, would you contact your state congressmen to ask to make it illegal for DNPs to call themselves doctor?

Thanks
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Unfortunately that link is good for congressmen at the federal level, not the state level.

It's at the state level where legislation is made to regulate the practice of medicine.

If you find an easier form to contact state congressmen would you let us know?

In the mean time, would you contact your state congressmen to ask to make it illegal for DNPs to call themselves doctor?

Thanks
I don't understand what you're saying.

With that website you can find contact information for governors, senators, and state representatives (by district). Who else would you need to contact?
 
Who else would you need to contact?


That website links you to the president of the U.S., your state governor, and your state representative in Washington.

We need to target the representatives to the house of our state and the senators of our state - state government as opposed to federal government.

It is the state government (not Washington) who legislates the practice of medicine in each state.

Hope that helps!
 
According to the Pearson report - there are currently 7 states [Georgia, Illinois, Maine, Missouri, Ohio, Oklahoma, and Oregon] which have statutes or regulations prohibiting a nurse practitioner (NP) or other doctorally prepared health professional from using the title "Doctor.[1]

Florida makes the practitioner display the actual tranining/license they work under in visible badges.

Now it is at the state level that we need to be focusing our efforts.

We need to start contacting our state representatives on a "regular" basis so that the same legislation of these seven states also takes place in every other state of the union and even in Puerto Rico, yes sir!

I personally volunteer to do precisely this in my state (Florida)

Who will volunteer to contact their representatives in their own states?

(IT'S EASY I CAN SHOW YOU HOW!)


Would you follow me in ceasing to only whine about your frustrations online and actually taking actions to protect patients and medicine in general?





1.Pearson L. The Pearson Report. Am J Nurs Pract. 2007;11:2.



Fighting their calling themselves "doctor" is pretty meaningless if they are only going to turn around and call themselves "board certified dermatologist" (see other thread). While I don't disagree with what you are doing, you are nit-picking. The title isn't as important as the "unauthorized practice of medicine (or dermatology, etc) without a license". The use of "doctor" and "dermatologist" and "board certified" is really a false advertising/creating consumer confusion issue. The real issue is that they are using these titles to set up shops and practice independently as physicians.
 
Fighting their calling themselves "doctor" is pretty meaningless if they are only going to turn around and call themselves "board certified dermatologist" (see other thread). While I don't disagree with what you are doing, you are nit-picking. The title isn't as important as the "unauthorized practice of medicine (or dermatology, etc) without a license". The use of "doctor" and "dermatologist" and "board certified" is really a false advertising/creating consumer confusion issue. The real issue is that they are using these titles to set up shops and practice independently as physicians.


Law2Doc,

I'll use another user's response to explain why I think trying to restric the DNPs ability to practice independently is a lost cause:


Originally Posted by aProgDirector
I hate to say this, but any plan to limit NP practice via legislation is IMHO doomed to failure for several reasons.

1. NP's already have full practice rights in several states. Federal legislation preventing this would create havoc in those states that have already allowed it. "Grandfathering" states that have done so is a messy solution.

2. This will come across as physicians protecting their turf. No amount of trying to hide behind "patient safety" or "quality of care" is going to deceive anyone.

3. The argument that there will not be enough PCP's for all the new insured patients, whether true or not, will make legislatures allow NP's to practice independently.

However, this does not mean that there is nothing to do:

1. Instead, define what the "practice of medicine" is. Then simply declare that licensing those that practice medicine falls under the umbrella of the BOM, regardless of the person's prior training. This would allow a BOM to define a minimum amount of practice experience before an NP could practice independently, or otherwise set rules.

2. Require "truth in advertising" -- that people need to declare clearly what their training is. This might include limiting the title "Doctor" in the clinical setting to those with MD/DO/MBBS etc degrees who have completed an ACGME / AOA residency.

Trying to pust to actually prevent practice rights for NP's is likely to fail, might as well focus on what you can realistically achieve




I think we need to

1) restrict the use of the title "doctor" for patient safety.

2) Define "the practice of medicine" and bring the practice of independent DNPs under the board of medicine.

3) Set rules like the ones in florida where there is "Truth in medical education" by which all practitioners must disclose the actual nature of the education and license they posess.

4) Limit by law, like it's done in Florida, the use of "specialist", "dermatologist", etc to those who have completed an actual residency in an institution recognized by the board of medicine.

I'm currently tweaking another user's sample letter so that it can be used at the state level to request all these changes I just enumerated.


Best regards!
 
I think we need to

1) restrict the use of the title "doctor" for patient safety.

2) Define "the practice of medicine" and bring the practice of independent DNPs under the board of medicine.

3) Set rules like the ones in florida where there is "Truth in medical education" by which all practitioners must disclose the actual nature of the education and license they posess.

4) Limit by law, like it's done in Florida, the use of "specialist", "dermatologist", etc to those who have completed an actual residency in an institution recognized by the board of medicine.

I'm currently tweaking another user's sample letter so that it can be used at the state level to request all these changes I just enumerated.


Best regards!

I think this is a more sound approach than simply objecting to the term "doctor". #2 is the meat of the argument (and the way that lawyers thwarted encroachment by paralegals, accountants and realtors in various litigation). You have my vote.
 
Just curious, would this include other doctorally trained professionals?
Or is it just nursing?
 
I think you'll be OK

Lol, no really...is it an agenda against the DNP program or
is this including all doctorally trained professionals? For instance,
(and I have a million of them lol, seems everyone now has a doctorate
or is somehow roped into a program)
I have a friend whose significant other's mother has her PhD in
art history or something of that genre and goes by "Dr. Reilly".

Or, I have another friend who is in process of working on her doctorate
in ecology, I think it is, thought it was bio but it's ecology/environment,
whatever, and she loves the fact that people will be calling her "doctor".
I'm frightened :scared:

Also, my sister works on an acute inpatient rehab unit in a major
teaching hospital and there are a few PT's who have their doctorates
and they just love being called "doctor". She says "and they think they
are physicians too".

Hence, my question...thanks!
 
I have no problem referring to dentists, veterinarians, PhD's, etc, as "doctor" because they function in different theaters than medical doctors. Nurse practitioners function in the same theater as medical doctors. Therefore I'm against them being called "doctors." In the medical world, there is only one doctor. Having more than one type of "doctor" confuses the patient and quite frankly, I think it insults the hard work we all did to get to this point.
 
Lol, no really...is it an agenda against the DNP program or
is this including all doctorally trained professionals? For instance,
(and I have a million of them lol, seems everyone now has a doctorate
or is somehow roped into a program)
I have a friend whose significant other's mother has her PhD in
art history or something of that genre and goes by "Dr. Reilly".

Or, I have another friend who is in process of working on her doctorate
in ecology, I think it is, thought it was bio but it's ecology/environment,
whatever, and she loves the fact that people will be calling her "doctor".
I'm frightened :scared:

Also, my sister works on an acute inpatient rehab unit in a major
teaching hospital and there are a few PT's who have their doctorates
and they just love being called "doctor". She says "and they think they
are physicians too".

Hence, my question...thanks!

The idea is not to prevent anyone with a PhD or doctoral level degree from being called doctor, its to restrict the context. I don't care if a Dentist is referred to as doctor within the context of a dental practice, or if a professor is referred to as doctor in an academic setting. The use of doctor in a medical and clinical setting, however, needs to be restricted so that patient's understand the qualifications of the individual that is treating them. Otherwise there can be doctors of nursing practice, doctors of chiropractry, doctors of optometry, and hell probably soon doctors of custodial and orderly services, all confusing the hell out of patients in order to gain "prestige"

On another note, I find it insulting not just to physicians, but to all legitimate PhDs who work for years and actually contribute meaningful research to their field that anybody can go get a "doctorate" in damn near anything on an online course these days. Higher education needs some serious regulation.
 
Otherwise there can be doctors of nursing practice, doctors of chiropractry...

They already have them. It really gets under my skin when they call themselves chiropractic PHYSICIANS. I saw a sign the other day with that!
 
The idea is not to prevent anyone with a PhD or doctoral level degree from being called doctor, its to restrict the context. I don't care if a Dentist is referred to as doctor within the context of a dental practice, or if a professor is referred to as doctor in an academic setting. The use of doctor in a medical and clinical setting, however, needs to be restricted so that patient's understand the qualifications of the individual that is treating them. Otherwise there can be doctors of nursing practice, doctors of chiropractry, doctors of optometry, and hell probably soon doctors of custodial and orderly services, all confusing the hell out of patients in order to gain "prestige"

On another note, I find it insulting not just to physicians, but to all legitimate PhDs who work for years and actually contribute meaningful research to their field that anybody can go get a "doctorate" in damn near anything on an online course these days. Higher education needs some serious regulation.

As a pharmacy student...

I firmly believe that NPs and PAs should NOT be allowed to call themselves doctors. HOWEVER....when it comes to actual doctoral health professionals, I find it to be a different situation. As a pharmacist, there is no danger of a patient confusing me with a physician, and if it did occur in a hallway or something I would, of course, simply tell them that I am not a physician but would be glad to ask the nurse to assist them, or whatever it is they wanted.

Dentists, pharmacists, physical therapists, etc have no danger of being mistaken for a physician, and I don't think that this should apply to us. I will have a doctorate. I reserve the right to walk into a hospital room and say, "Hi, I'm Dr. Carboxide. I'm the clinical pharmacist working on your case and I'm here to help you."

There's NO danger there.
 
So it's just the clinical setting? That clarifies it a bit for me.
Sorry to be so dense, I just wasn't getting it. Some have
put an enormous amount of work into their doctorate and not
to be able to use the title, I thought was being a little
juvenile.

And to tell you the truth, I haven't dealt with
NP's of PA's on a huge scale, but the ones I have,
would never refer to themselves as a doctor or physician.
They were pretty up front with who they were.
I suppose it depends on the institution/setting?
Now, the optometrist that worked in the practice, that was a
whole other story lol.

Now, my friend working on her PhD...I don't even want to go
there. It's a saga for twenty plus years...
 
As a pharmacy student...

I firmly believe that NPs and PAs should NOT be allowed to call themselves doctors. HOWEVER....when it comes to actual doctoral health professionals, I find it to be a different situation. As a pharmacist, there is no danger of a patient confusing me with a physician, and if it did occur in a hallway or something I would, of course, simply tell them that I am not a physician but would be glad to ask the nurse to assist them, or whatever it is they wanted.

Dentists, pharmacists, physical therapists, etc have no danger of being mistaken for a physician, and I don't think that this should apply to us. I will have a doctorate. I reserve the right to walk into a hospital room and say, "Hi, I'm Dr. Carboxide. I'm the clinical pharmacist working on your case and I'm here to help you."

There's NO danger there.

Sorry but that's the same line that DNPs use to say they should be called doctor. No one except physicians should be called doctor in the hospital/clinical setting. You don't have any more right than a doctorate in fine arts to be called doctor in such a setting. Outside of the hospital, sure, you have a doctorate and can be called doctor. But inside the hospital, it creates confusion.
 
I have no problem referring to dentists, veterinarians, PhD's, etc, as "doctor" because they function in different theaters than medical doctors. Nurse practitioners function in the same theater as medical doctors. Therefore I'm against them being called "doctors." In the medical world, there is only one doctor. Having more than one type of "doctor" confuses the patient and quite frankly, I think it insults the hard work we all did to get to this point.

Your impeccable logic has no place in politics.

Nurses will get what they want. They have powerful lobby and the public perception that they are more caring than docs. "They spend more time with their patients and do a better job listening...blah blah", study done by *insert nurse organization here*
 
I would be the first in line to vote for a bill enforcing a law that ALL people in contact with a patient, whether its the housekeeper or the chief of surgery, needs to identify themself and what thier title is. Some hospitals have tags that hang under the employee ID that say in big red letters, RN, resident MD, attending MD, NP, PA, CNA, and even environmental service. Nobody has Dr. Jane Smith on their ID, it says Jane Smith MD. If a person such as a social worker or physicial therapist holds a phD, it will have the degree behind their name but it will not say Dr. before their name either.

NOBODY except MD's should be allowed to identify themself as a doctor to patients. I know this is about DNP's, but patients become confused when there is so many people, and there are situations such as the physical therapist and PM+R docs who are both "doctor" that can cause confusion. To the patient, they both deal with rehab, they must be the same right? How about the social worker who holds a doctorate vs. the psychiatrist? To the patient, they both come to see them and talk about things, they don't know the difference if they are both introduced as doctor.

Nurses were able to pass laws making it illegal for anyone but a licensed nurse to be call themself "nurse" to a patient. It would be pretty hypocritical for DNP's especially to try to trick patients into thinking they are physicians or to give the patient the impression that they have equal training by addressing themself as doctor in a clinical setting.
 
Sorry but that's the same line that DNPs use to say they should be called doctor. No one except physicians should be called doctor in the hospital/clinical setting. You don't have any more right than a doctorate in fine arts to be called doctor in such a setting. Outside of the hospital, sure, you have a doctorate and can be called doctor. But inside the hospital, it creates confusion.

It only creates confusion when the person being called doctor is functioning in the same way as a physician. PAs and NPs have the same role as a physician; diagnosis and treatment. Pharmacists, dentists and eye doctors do NOT. We have very separate, distinct roles. There's a HUGE difference, and if you really can't admit that, you're just deliberately being dense.

As for my right to be called doctor in a clinical setting - I have a DOCTORATE in a CLINICAL subject. I don't think a doctor of fine arts does (and as for science doctorate holders, they aren't in a clinical field; that's also different).

Something I'd like to see is this: some hospitals have started doing mandatory color-coded scrubs. If you are a nurse, you MUST wear orange (or whatever) scrubs, every day. Doctors wear a certain color. Everyone must wear them. And there are charts all over so that people can easily see what color scrubs mean what profession. I think that's a perfect way to distinguish between physicians and clinical doctorate holders in other subjects (like pharmacy).


One more thing: do you also say that optometrists shouldn't be called doctor? If not, why not? There ARE ophthalmologists, you know. Aren't you afraid patients will also get that confused?
 
As a pharmacy student...

I firmly believe that NPs and PAs should NOT be allowed to call themselves doctors. HOWEVER....when it comes to actual doctoral health professionals, I find it to be a different situation. As a pharmacist, there is no danger of a patient confusing me with a physician, and if it did occur in a hallway or something I would, of course, simply tell them that I am not a physician but would be glad to ask the nurse to assist them, or whatever it is they wanted.

Dentists, pharmacists, physical therapists, etc have no danger of being mistaken for a physician, and I don't think that this should apply to us. I will have a doctorate. I reserve the right to walk into a hospital room and say, "Hi, I'm Dr. Carboxide. I'm the clinical pharmacist working on your case and I'm here to help you."

There's NO danger there.

This is the key. You can call yourself a doctor all you want so long as you make it quite clear to the patient what you're a doctor of. This applies to the hospital, of course. In clinic, I couldn't care less.
 
It only creates confusion when the person being called doctor is functioning in the same way as a physician. PAs and NPs have the same role as a physician; diagnosis and treatment. Pharmacists, dentists and eye doctors do NOT. We have very separate, distinct roles. There's a HUGE difference, and if you really can't admit that, you're just deliberately being dense.

As for my right to be called doctor in a clinical setting - I have a DOCTORATE in a CLINICAL subject. I don't think a doctor of fine arts does (and as for science doctorate holders, they aren't in a clinical field; that's also different).

Something I'd like to see is this: some hospitals have started doing mandatory color-coded scrubs. If you are a nurse, you MUST wear orange (or whatever) scrubs, every day. Doctors wear a certain color. Everyone must wear them. And there are charts all over so that people can easily see what color scrubs mean what profession. I think that's a perfect way to distinguish between physicians and clinical doctorate holders in other subjects (like pharmacy).


One more thing: do you also say that optometrists shouldn't be called doctor? If not, why not? There ARE ophthalmologists, you know. Aren't you afraid patients will also get that confused?

I understand you have a doctorate, but it still creates confusion. I don't think physicians should have a monopoly on the word "doctor" in a general sense, but when someone is in the hospital, patients think a doctor refers to the physician taking care of them. Even if you address yourself as a pharmacist, it still creates confusion. Some patients have so many physicians following them in the hospital, that it's difficult for a patient to keep track. They hear the word doctor, and they assume you're a physician taking care of them.

I don't think optometrists should be called doctor in the hospital/clinical setting. The same way physical therapists, dentists, and psychologists shouldn't. However, if they are seeing a patient in their own office, I couldn't care less what they call themselves and they have every right to say they are Dr. so and so.
 
This is the key. You can call yourself a doctor all you want so long as you make it quite clear to the patient what you're a doctor of. This applies to the hospital, of course. In clinic, I couldn't care less.

I agree, but again, the DNP issue finds ways around it. Example, Debra Shelby, who most likely works in, around, with, etc the USF medical center introduced herself, in the now missing video (;)) as : "Dr Debra Shelby, director of the Dermatology residency at USF." This is a no no.
 
I understand you have a doctorate, but it still creates confusion. I don't think physicians should have a monopoly on the word "doctor" in a general sense, but when someone is in the hospital, patients think a doctor refers to the physician taking care of them. Even if you address yourself as a pharmacist, it still creates confusion. Some patients have so many physicians following them in the hospital, that it's difficult for a patient to keep track. They hear the word doctor, and they assume you're a physician taking care of them.

I don't think optometrists should be called doctor in the hospital/clinical setting. The same way physical therapists, dentists, and psychologists shouldn't. However, if they are seeing a patient in their own office, I couldn't care less what they call themselves and they have every right to say they are Dr. so and so.


Firstly...can you show any proof that patients are as easily confused as you say? I'm not sure I completely believe that.

Secondly...say that you're right. Even if they were, as long as I, the pharmacist, don't overstep my boundaries as a pharmacist there's STILL no danger. It literally can't hurt anyone. SO WHAT if ONE PERSON, SOMEWHERE, SOMETIME thinks I'm their physician? I'm sure as hell not going to do anything I'm not qualified to do...and if they're that easily confused, they won't remember me after I'm gone anyways.

I just don't see the danger with non-diagnostic positions.
 
I agree, but again, the DNP issue finds ways around it. Example, Debra Shelby, who most likely works in, around, with, etc the USF medical center introduced herself, in the now missing video (;)) as : "Dr Debra Shelby, director of the Dermatology residency at USF." This is a no no.

Meh, I'm not that concerned. I can't pretend I like it, but in that setting I don't see the issue. What if the program was being run by a PhD? Can they not be called doctor?

The program itself is a different issue.
 
Firstly...can you show any proof that patients are as easily confused as you say? I'm not sure I completely believe that.

Secondly...say that you're right. Even if they were, as long as I, the pharmacist, don't overstep my boundaries as a pharmacist there's STILL no danger. It literally can't hurt anyone. SO WHAT if ONE PERSON, SOMEWHERE, SOMETIME thinks I'm their physician? I'm sure as hell not going to do anything I'm not qualified to do...and if they're that easily confused, they won't remember me after I'm gone anyways.

I just don't see the danger with non-diagnostic positions.

You know, the more I think about this the more I agree with you. I can't tell you how many times as a medical student I'd go into a room and introduce myself as "medical student" and get called doctor within 5 minutes.

Further, what about subspecialists? If the neurologist goes into the room and the patient asks about their diabetes, the neurologist just says "that's not what I'm here for" and that's that.
 
You know, the more I think about this the more I agree with you. I can't tell you how many times as a medical student I'd go into a room and introduce myself as "medical student" and get called doctor within 5 minutes.

Further, what about subspecialists? If the neurologist goes into the room and the patient asks about their diabetes, the neurologist just says "that's not what I'm here for" and that's that.

Well isnt that a problem? Everyone running around with a white coat, patient doesnt know whose the doctor, so they just call everyone doc. Its no wonder patients get confused. We as medical students get confused by whose a physician and phd when were being taught until we see that title screen on the powerpoint. How are we supposed to expect patients to be able to tell the difference when everyones running around with white coats and calling themselves doctor.

I wouldnt go into a vets office and call myself doctor. I wouldnt go into the dentists office and say hey call me doctor.
 
Meh, I'm not that concerned. I can't pretend I like it, but in that setting I don't see the issue. What if the program was being run by a PhD? Can they not be called doctor?

The program itself is a different issue.

Well, if it was run by a PhD, I'd still be annoyed and think it was odd that someone with a PhD in Anthropology, err whatever, was introducing himself as the directory of a residency program. However, if the PhD belonged to an organization that bashed DO/MDs, insisted they could do everything docs can, wanted to practice medicine without a license, etc, I'd definitely take just as much issue with it.
 
I'm sorry, Carboxide, but how hypocritical can you be? It's not OK for persons A, B and C, but it's ok for me because the patient's confused anyway??? :scared:
 
Everyone running around with a white coat, patient doesnt know whose the doctor, so they just call everyone doc. Its no wonder patients get confused. We as medical students get confused by whose a physician and phd when were being taught until we see that title screen on the powerpoint. How are we supposed to expect patients to be able to tell the difference when everyones running around with white coats and calling themselves doctor.

Maybe this will help?

http://www.newswise.com/articles/co...ealth-care-truth-and-transparency-act-of-2010
 
I'm sorry, Carboxide, but how hypocritical can you be? It's not OK for persons A, B and C, but it's ok for me because the patient's confused anyway??? :scared:

It's okay for me because I am NOT IN A DIAGNOSTIC POSITION.

There's a HUGE difference between an NP saying they're a doctor and a pharmacist saying they're a doctor. An NP performs the same responsibilities as a physician. She (I say she because 94% of NPs are female) diagnoses and prescribes. Patients who see an NP or PA and believe they're physicians may take their advice differently or have a different experience in general, and not know that they're receiving a lower standard of care. Pharmacists NEITHER diagnose NOR prescribe. Even specialized pharmacists who spend a lot of time designing medication plans for patients need a physician to write the prescription.

Because physicians neither diagnose nor prescribe, the confusion factor for patients is limited to JUST a name. It doesn't actually AFFECT them. If they call me doctor, it cannot possibly harm them. Thinking NPs or PAs are doctors CAN harm them.

It's not hypocrisy. It's just...fact.
 
You know, the more I think about this the more I agree with you. I can't tell you how many times as a medical student I'd go into a room and introduce myself as "medical student" and get called doctor within 5 minutes.

Further, what about subspecialists? If the neurologist goes into the room and the patient asks about their diabetes, the neurologist just says "that's not what I'm here for" and that's that.

Exactly. That's the same thing with non-diagnostic doctoral health professionals. We just say "That's not what I'm here for" and that. is. that.
 
Well isnt that a problem? Everyone running around with a white coat, patient doesnt know whose the doctor, so they just call everyone doc. Its no wonder patients get confused. We as medical students get confused by whose a physician and phd when were being taught until we see that title screen on the powerpoint. How are we supposed to expect patients to be able to tell the difference when everyones running around with white coats and calling themselves doctor.

I wouldnt go into a vets office and call myself doctor. I wouldnt go into the dentists office and say hey call me doctor.

Maybe my school is unique, none of us had much trouble telling the PhDs from the MDs. Why don't we just have everyone use their title if they say doctor. I'm Dr. so and so and I'm the neurologist/pharmacist/podiatrist/clergyman/resident taking care of you while you're here".

Ah, so when I go to the dentist and the new patient info forms have those boxes where you check "Mr., Mrs, Ms, Dr." you wouldn't check doctor?
 
Well, if it was run by a PhD, I'd still be annoyed and think it was odd that someone with a PhD in Anthropology, err whatever, was introducing himself as the directory of a residency program. However, if the PhD belonged to an organization that bashed DO/MDs, insisted they could do everything docs can, wanted to practice medicine without a license, etc, I'd definitely take just as much issue with it.

Oh heavens, someone bashing MDs. Time to double up on my Prozac. I'm having a harder and harder time caring what people call themselves.
 
Maybe my school is unique, none of us had much trouble telling the PhDs from the MDs. Why don't we just have everyone use their title if they say doctor. I'm Dr. so and so and I'm the neurologist/pharmacist/podiatrist/clergyman/resident taking care of you while you're here".

Ah, so when I go to the dentist and the new patient info forms have those boxes where you check "Mr., Mrs, Ms, Dr." you wouldn't check doctor?

I would check it but that doesnt mean I would go around introducing myself as doctor in the settings. Hell, I could care less if people called me doctor when I was in the hospital.

Personally I dont care what people introduce themselves as. If you are so concerned to have everyone call you doctor everywhere you go (regardless of which kind) then clearly you are just insecure. What I have a problem with is this idea of people using their "doctorate" degrees to be called doctor to specifically blur the lines between physicians and other healthcare providers. When you have 40 different people running into a room I want the patient to know who is a physician and who is not.
 
I would check it but that doesnt mean I would go around introducing myself as doctor in the settings. Hell, I could care less if people called me doctor when I was in the hospital.

Personally I dont care what people introduce themselves as. If you are so concerned to have everyone call you doctor everywhere you go (regardless of which kind) then clearly you are just insecure. What I have a problem with is this idea of people using their "doctorate" degrees to be called doctor to specifically blur the lines between physicians and other healthcare providers. When you have 40 different people running into a room I want the patient to know who is a physician and who is not.

I agree with all of that, which is why I think everyone should say what their job title is. I'm a physician doctor, there are pharmacist doctors, there are PT doctors and so on. Seems an easy, neutral way to settle this nonsense.
 
Here's a sample letter to be used to contact your STATE legislators to ask for laws to preserve the practice of medicine. Feel free to offer modifications, suggestions, and to use it freely...



1. Google the website for your state senate and your state house of representatives ===> http://www.google.com . Find your representative, either by zip code, county etc. Get their contact information and either send them your letter [below] from your email or from the state legislation website.


2). Give your message a title:
Defining the scope of medical practice and healthcare truth and transparency

3. Your message body:

Dear (State Senator or State Representative):


Through this correspondence, I would like to kindly request your action in formulating legislation to ensure the clear definition of the practice of medicine, that when a patient sees a doctor in a clinical setting she/he sees a medical doctor (MD/DO), and that the practice of independent medical practitioners be brought under the regulation of our state board of medicine.

I am concerned about the growing efforts of Doctors of Nurse Practitioning (DNP) and other nurse practitioners (NP) to expand their scope of practice to include the same practice rights and reimbursement rates as physicians while demonstrating lower levels of education, training, and medical liability. Currently, they are petitioning in 28 states for the right to practice medicine independently, without physician (MD/DO) oversight.

Unfortunately, this is not the role NP’s are designed to fill, and this is reflected in their significantly less clinical training and the nature of their training. NP’s are “physician extenders,” their role is to assess patients and present the pertinent findings to a licensed physician so he/she can more efficiently treat the patient, thus optimizing the number of patients they can care for each day. They are not trained to practice as independent physicians.

I oppose expanding the rights of NP’s because the length depth and nature of their training is not equivalent to physicians. To qualify as a board-certified physician, one must, in general, complete 4 years of undergraduate training, 4 years of medical school (MD or DO), and 3-7 years of residency. To sub-specialize, physicians must train an additional 1-3 years. In comparison to the 11-18 years of higher education that physicians must complete, DNP’s require only 8-10 years while many of these years are comprised of training to function under supervision only. DNP’s must spend 2-4 years to receive a nursing degree , 2 years to receive a Masters of Science in Nursing, and a variable number of years, usually 2-4, to receive a DPN, a degree which, in many cases, can be completed entirely online without ever attending a class in person (i.e. Ball State University). However, where the difference in training is most obvious is in the huge discrepancy between number of clinical hours required for certification as a DNP compared to a board-certified physician and the discrepancy in the training for independent practice of physicians compared to most of the training to practice under supervision of DNPs.

In the instance of family medicine, certification for an NP to practice family medicine requires a minimum of 500 hours with a nationwide mean requirement of 686 clinical hours (Bray, CO, Olson KK. Family Nurse Practitioner Clinical Requirements: Is the Best Recommendation 500 Hours? J. Amer. Acad. Nurse Prac. 2009;21: 135-139). An MD/DO family medicine residency requires 9,555 clinical hours* If an NP student were to work 65 hours a week, like the average MD/DO resident does, it would take only 8-11 weeks to complete their training, while it takes a physician 3 years.

There is no logical rationale why anyone with demonstrably substandard education, training, and skills and non-independent nature of training, should be allowed to circumvent this time-tested path to practice medicine unsupervised.

I understand that while NPs and other physician extenders play an important role in healthcare delivery, they are not equivalent to physicians, and as such should not be allowed to practice without supervision or be reimbursed at the same rate as physicians. If this is allowed to happen, the quality of medical care available to the public will noticeably suffer as the likelihood that a serious condition that would be noticed by a physician will be missed by DNPs, who only have 7% of the clinical hours possessed by the physicians that they wish to emulate. As a result, grave conditions that would be caught by physicians at an earlier, more treatable stage will go unnoticed by the less trained DNP and will be allowed to progress. DNPs are seeking false credentials that will confuse the public into thinking that they are physicians.

The path to becoming a physician is already established and I, therefore, kindly ask, that you , do not support the establishment of a short-cut path so that less qualified and less knowledgeable individuals can reap the financial and social benefits of being a “physician” at the expense of the public’s wellbeing. Furthermore, I kindly ask you propose legislation to prevent the establishment of such shortcut in our state. Thank you.



Sincerely,



[Your Name]




* assuming an average of 65hr/wk x 49wk/yr x 3yr. 65 hr average was calculated by myself but looking at the avg number of hours worked by FM residents in FL, CT, and CA.
 
I agree with all of that, which is why I think everyone should say what their job title is. I'm a physician doctor, there are pharmacist doctors, there are PT doctors and so on. Seems an easy, neutral way to settle this nonsense.

thats still confusing though.

Nurse: Hi im a doctor nurse

Pt: Huh? Are you a doctor or a nurse?

Nurse: Im both

Pt: huh?

Physicians are associated with the word "doctor" because they were the only ones with doctorate degrees in the clinical setting. Now that everyone has doctorate degrees things are getting confusing. Unfortunately, removing the association of doctor=physician wont happen because its pervasive through society. So the use of the word doctor should be restricted to physicians in the clinical setting.
 
thats still confusing though.

Nurse: Hi im a doctor nurse

Pt: Huh? Are you a doctor or a nurse?

Nurse: Im both

Pt: huh?

Physicians are associated with the word "doctor" because they were the only ones with doctorate degrees in the clinical setting. Now that everyone has doctorate degrees things are getting confusing. Unfortunately, removing the association of doctor=physician wont happen because its pervasive through society. So the use of the word doctor should be restricted to physicians in the clinical setting.

Doctor with title. "I'm dr. so and so, the <insert career choice> who's going to be <whatever you're doing>"

Example: I'm Dr. so and so, I'm the optometrist/podiatrist/pharmacist/nurse practitioner who's going to be taking care of you/problem X today.
 
I see that you've posted my rough draft for a congressional petition. While I have absolutely no qualms with this, please take a few minutes to read the thread asking for feedback that I posted in the general residency forum. A few posters were kind enough to offer suggestions, including the removal of all references to reimbursement, as well as a restructuring of the organization, which this letter would benefit from.

Here's a sample letter to be used to contact your STATE legislators to ask for laws to preserve the practice of medicine. Feel free to offer modifications, suggestions, and to use it freely...



1. Google the website for your state senate and your state house of representatives ===> http://www.google.com . Find your representative, either by zip code, county etc. Get their contact information and either send them your letter [below] from your email or from the state legislation website.


2). Give your message a title:
Defining the scope of medical practice and healthcare truth and transparency

3. Your message body:

Dear (State Senator or State Representative):


Through this correspondence, I would like to kindly request your action in formulating legislation to ensure the clear definition of the practice of medicine, that when a patient sees a doctor in a clinical setting she/he sees a medical doctor (MD/DO), and that the practice of independent medical practitioners be brought under the regulation of our state board of medicine.

I am concerned about the growing efforts of Doctors of Nurse Practitioning (DNP) and other nurse practitioners (NP) to expand their scope of practice to include the same practice rights and reimbursement rates as physicians while demonstrating lower levels of education, training, and medical liability. Currently, they are petitioning in 28 states for the right to practice medicine independently, without physician (MD/DO) oversight.

Unfortunately, this is not the role NP’s are designed to fill, and this is reflected in their significantly less clinical training and the nature of their training. NP’s are “physician extenders,” their role is to assess patients and present the pertinent findings to a licensed physician so he/she can more efficiently treat the patient, thus optimizing the number of patients they can care for each day. They are not trained to practice as independent physicians.

I oppose expanding the rights of NP’s because the length depth and nature of their training is not equivalent to physicians. To qualify as a board-certified physician, one must, in general, complete 4 years of undergraduate training, 4 years of medical school (MD or DO), and 3-7 years of residency. To sub-specialize, physicians must train an additional 1-3 years. In comparison to the 11-18 years of higher education that physicians must complete, DNP’s require only 8-10 years while many of these years are comprised of training to function under supervision only. DNP’s must spend 2-4 years to receive a nursing degree , 2 years to receive a Masters of Science in Nursing, and a variable number of years, usually 2-4, to receive a DPN, a degree which, in many cases, can be completed entirely online without ever attending a class in person (i.e. Ball State University). However, where the difference in training is most obvious is in the huge discrepancy between number of clinical hours required for certification as a DNP compared to a board-certified physician and the discrepancy in the training for independent practice of physicians compared to most of the training to practice under supervision of DNPs.

In the instance of family medicine, certification for an NP to practice family medicine requires a minimum of 500 hours with a nationwide mean requirement of 686 clinical hours (Bray, CO, Olson KK. Family Nurse Practitioner Clinical Requirements: Is the Best Recommendation 500 Hours? J. Amer. Acad. Nurse Prac. 2009;21: 135-139). An MD/DO family medicine residency requires 9,555 clinical hours* If an NP student were to work 65 hours a week, like the average MD/DO resident does, it would take only 8-11 weeks to complete their training, while it takes a physician 3 years.

There is no logical rationale why anyone with demonstrably substandard education, training, and skills and non-independent nature of training, should be allowed to circumvent this time-tested path to practice medicine unsupervised.

I understand that while NPs and other physician extenders play an important role in healthcare delivery, they are not equivalent to physicians, and as such should not be allowed to practice without supervision or be reimbursed at the same rate as physicians. If this is allowed to happen, the quality of medical care available to the public will noticeably suffer as the likelihood that a serious condition that would be noticed by a physician will be missed by DNPs, who only have 7% of the clinical hours possessed by the physicians that they wish to emulate. As a result, grave conditions that would be caught by physicians at an earlier, more treatable stage will go unnoticed by the less trained DNP and will be allowed to progress. DNPs are seeking false credentials that will confuse the public into thinking that they are physicians.

The path to becoming a physician is already established and I, therefore, kindly ask, that you , do not support the establishment of a short-cut path so that less qualified and less knowledgeable individuals can reap the financial and social benefits of being a “physician” at the expense of the public’s wellbeing. Furthermore, I kindly ask you propose legislation to prevent the establishment of such shortcut in our state. Thank you.



Sincerely,



[Your Name]




* assuming an average of 65hr/wk x 49wk/yr x 3yr. 65 hr average was calculated by myself but looking at the avg number of hours worked by FM residents in FL, CT, and CA.
 
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