Stats for Top Tier Schools

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Okay so lets say that I have an old & expired 28 MCAT retook for next cycle and got a new 520 MCAT. Is there a way to factor this 'poor performance' data into my school list/ a way to protect against the decreased chances that my group has?
Also feel free to pm me and ignore this and go on with the discussion:)
Average your mcat @Lawper has lots to say about this.

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Okay so lets say that I have an old & expired 28 MCAT retook for next cycle and got a new 520 MCAT. Is there a way to factor this 'poor performance' data into my school list/ a way to protect against the decreased chances that my group has?
Also feel free to pm me and ignore this and go on with the discussion:)
If you score 98th percentile 3-4 years after your prior weaker score I don't think it is going to hurt you much. Plus by next cycle everyone will be on the new format. Depending on your GPA I think you could treat it as a score competitive anywhere.


Average your mcat @Lawper has lots to say about this.
The AAMC likes to tell people to average. But they also tell people 500+ is all qualified for medical school...
 
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If you score 98th percentile 3-4 years after your prior weaker score I don't think it is going to hurt you much. Plus by next cycle everyone will be on the new format. Depending on your GPA I think you could treat it as a score competitive anywhere.



The AAMC likes to tell people to average. But they also tell people 500+ is all qualified for medical school...
I would aim mid tier, those numbers ****** prefer virgins.
 
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My personal advice is to apply broadly. You never know what schools are looking for and what person likes you as an applicant. At the end of the day it is people who like your application not a school. A school is made of bricks and they don't admit anyone.

But to answer your question the msar can give you the stats but generally the higher the better
 
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Okay so lets say that I have an old & expired 28 MCAT retook for next cycle and got a new 520 MCAT. Is there a way to factor this 'poor performance' data into my school list/ a way to protect against the decreased chances that my group has?
Also feel free to pm me and ignore this and go on with the discussion:)
Average your mcat @Lawper has lots to say about this.
The AAMC likes to tell people to average. But they also tell people 500+ is all qualified for medical school...

The 28 is expired though. I wouldn't think an expired 28 + 520 has equal weight to 520 alone but i'd probably guess it's somewhere close to 520

And 500+ is qualified for med school in the sense of passing the boards. But who cares about just passing? The goal is to excel on them to maximize chances at getting into a good residency in a specialty you want.
 
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If the 28 is not expired/still valid, yeah. But from what i read from adcoms, the averaging rule doesn't apply to expired scores. They are just there.
Gyngyn said previously that some adcoms will still look to the first for performance even if it is expired.
 
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Well wow thanks for all the feedback everyone (somewhat mixed as it was), I really appreciate it. Essentially I would just sort of bank on hope with my state school but I'm a typical 'woe is me' California applicant. For someone who mentioned GPA I have a 3.8 cGPA and 3.75 sGPA so idk maybe that makes the 520 look better but I'm not trying to turn this into a WAMC though I kinda already did whoops....

Yeah the 28 will be four years old when I apply (I'm nontrad three years since undergrad) so idk pretty much I'm just lost and hoping that somehow I'll make it out alive this next application cycle applying to like 25-30 schools...

But seriously thank you for the feedback... Essentially I'm worried I'll get yield protected at lower tier schools and tossed out for my first MCAT at others so...I guess we'll know more next cycle...
 
You know what is weird?

8883 / 27772 = 32.0% admitted among applicants with a new MCAT (or new + old)

Overall, 22031 / 53029 = 41.5% admitted overall

This means the cohort applying with only old scores had an admit rate of 13148 / 25257 = 52%

What??? The group bearing new or new+old performed terribly
I have two theories:

Many strong students on top of their app building wanted to reliably score well and rushed to take the old exam in Winter instead of waiting for the scary new edition in Spring.

The cohort is new or new+old, and new+old are retesters, maybe a group likely to be weaker overall. The other group of only old exam score is less likely to be a retaker (someone who tested in winter and did poorly would have to retake the new exam).

But the scores were assigned by percentile, so it can't even be explained in terms of stronger/weaker MCAT scores. The same fraction of both cohorts had top 1%/5%/10% etc. It must somehow be that everything else on the apps was weaker for those bearing new scores.
I didn't see anything that would explain this difference.
I can say that most reviewers still seem to prefer the old MCAT.
Yikes, I hope we didn't just have hundreds of people losing their medical seats to the mere-exposure effect

I don't think the mere exposure effect alone explains the 20% drop in acceptance rates. The new + new/old cohort is apparently a weaker group than the old cohort. This could be due to unfamiliarity of the exam and the group did significantly worse than expected.

This apparently contradicts the SDN phenomenon of the score creep with new scores, but then again, SDN is largely a self-selected group of extremely intelligent applicants. And the overall population with new scores did much worse than expected.

Can't think of other explanations. Strong applicants rushing to take the old exam plays a small factor in the difference, but it alone definitely doesn't contribute to 20% difference.
 
Gyngyn said previously that some adcoms will still look to the first for performance even if it is expired.
"Old" MCAT scores are visible (and considered), even when they are no longer in the acceptable time frame.
 
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This could be due to unfamiliarity of the exam and the group did significantly worse than expected.
That's the kicker, because scores were assigned by percentile, there is no way to point to differences in MCAT performance. The fraction of people with top 20% or 10% or 5% is exactly the same, yet the overall percent admitted is far lower. The explanation has to be something that makes everything else (grades, ECs) stronger on old scores of the same percentile.
 
Gyngyn said previously that some adcoms will still look to the first for performance even if it is expired.

Which is what I said. I also said averaging doesn't apply to expired scores like it would to unexpired scores so an expired 28 + 520 isn't a 515/33. But it isn't the same as 520 alone. It's probably somewhere between a 515 and 520, and more closer to the latter (so probably 519)
 
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Quit fussing. A 520 would be nothing to sneeze at.

Even if averaged, that puts you in range of a LOT of good schools...Keck, JHU, Emory, for example.



Okay so lets say that I have an old & expired 28 MCAT retook for next cycle and got a new 520 MCAT. Is there a way to factor this 'poor performance' data into my school list/ a way to protect against the decreased chances that my group has?
Also feel free to pm me and ignore this and go on with the discussion:)

Well wow thanks for all the feedback everyone (somewhat mixed as it was), I really appreciate it. Essentially I would just sort of bank on hope with my state school but I'm a typical 'woe is me' California applicant. For someone who mentioned GPA I have a 3.8 cGPA and 3.75 sGPA so idk maybe that makes the 520 look better but I'm not trying to turn this into a WAMC though I kinda already did whoops....

Yeah the 28 will be four years old when I apply (I'm nontrad three years since undergrad) so idk pretty much I'm just lost and hoping that somehow I'll make it out alive this next application cycle applying to like 25-30 schools...

But seriously thank you for the feedback... Essentially I'm worried I'll get yield protected at lower tier schools and tossed out for my first MCAT at others so...I guess we'll know more next cycle...
 
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To anyone following this little discussion, I think the mystery has been solved. People that scored mediocre or poorly were much more likely to go ahead and apply anyways if they received their score on the new scale.

For the old score dataset, 32% of applicants were carrying a 26 and below
For the new score dataset, 47% of applicants were carrying a 501 and below

Admit rates for the upper score bins remained similar between exams. The big difference appears to be that getting a new score and looking at the MSAR was a lot more encouraging than getting an equivalent old score used to be - perhaps because of the new data they included showing applicant scores instead of only the acceptee scores we used to get.
 
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To anyone following this little discussion, I think the mystery has been solved. People that scored mediocre or poorly were much more likely to go ahead and apply anyways if they received their score on the new scale.

For the old score dataset, 32% of applicants were carrying a 26 and below
For the new score dataset, 47% of applicants were carrying a 501 and below

Admit rates for the upper score bins remained similar between exams. The big difference appears to be that getting a new score and looking at the MSAR was a lot more encouraging than getting an equivalent old score used to be - perhaps because of the new data they included showing applicant scores instead of only the acceptee scores we used to get.

i blame the difference entirely on the AAMC objective of making 500+ a passing score to succeed in medical school.
 
i blame the difference entirely on the AAMC objective of making 500+ a passing score to succeed in medical school.
Strictly speaking, that's true. The difficulty is that med schools are still going to use MCAT scores as markers of academic ability and stratify students accordingly. If AAMC really wanted 500+ students binned together, they'd just make the test pass/fail, but that will never happen.
 
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It is somewhat ironic that this change that was supposed to help shift emphasis down from the tippy top scores, ended up only making thousands of additional people in the non competitive range waste their time and money.
 
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To anyone following this little discussion, I think the mystery has been solved. People that scored mediocre or poorly were much more likely to go ahead and apply anyways if they received their score on the new scale.

For the old score dataset, 32% of applicants were carrying a 26 and below
For the new score dataset, 47% of applicants were carrying a 501 and below

Admit rates for the upper score bins remained similar between exams. The big difference appears to be that getting a new score and looking at the MSAR was a lot more encouraging than getting an equivalent old score used to be - perhaps because of the new data they included showing applicant scores instead of only the acceptee scores we used to get.

In addition to this, the acceptance rate for applicants with sub 26 scores from the old dataset was 14.2% while the acceptance rate for applicants with sub 501 scores is 10.4%. The AAMC may have succeeded in one small sense: convinced some adcoms to toss out sub 500 scores outright. The effect is not large enough to say this definitively so this is still somewhat speculative, but I find it convincing.

edit: looking at the data closer, it's the low-to-mid-20 scores (490-497) which are much higher proportionally in the new MCAT dataset compared to the old -- i.e people with scores near but below 500. Proportionally, the amount of applicants at the ends of this spectrum (scores in the teens and scores right around 26 (501)) are virtually the same. Graph below

6kue8Ug.png
 
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You know what is weird?

8883 / 27772 = 32.0% admitted among applicants with a new MCAT (or new + old)

Overall, 22031 / 53029 = 41.5% admitted overall

This means the cohort applying with only old scores had an admit rate of 13148 / 25257 = 52%

What??? The group bearing new or new+old performed terribly

Since that table was compiled from the 2015-16 application cycle, the vast majority of people who only had new MCAT scores were applying directly from college. On the contrary, many, if not most, of the applicants with the old MCAT scores had taken some time off after graduation (or took the MCAT super early - it's not clear what the split is among these two groups). Applicants who take time off college to strengthen their application can generally be more competitive than their "straight-through" peers, because of strong activities and/or an extra year of grades + honors, etc.
 
Since that table was compiled from the 2015-16 application cycle, the vast majority of people who only had new MCAT scores were applying directly from college. On the contrary, many, if not most, of the applicants with the old MCAT scores had taken some time off after graduation (or took the MCAT super early - it's not clear what the split is among these two groups). Applicants who take time off college to strengthen their application can generally be more competitive than their "straight-through" peers, because of strong activities and/or an extra year of grades + honors, etc.
Huh, thats an interesting thought. I wonder how many people that gap do so to fix glaring issues, vs to continue building a strong app to the level necessary for the most selective schools.
 
Huh, thats an interesting thought. I wonder how many people that gap do so to fix glaring issues, vs to continue building a strong app to the level necessary for the most selective schools.

I mean, you almost get two for one with a gap year because you get the added benefit of having senior year activities and grades. If you're part of a club or athletic team, senior year is when your chance to become captain or take on some other leadership role will be greatest. At the time you apply, you'll also have a job lined up for the year off and when you interview, what you're currently doing will be discussed. It so different talking to people who have taken one or more years off as compared to their peers who are still in college. The problems you face are very different and, in a way, adcoms can relate more to you because you're both in your professional lives. School is kind of like a limbo between childhood and adulthood.
 
They are more comfortable interpreting the old scores.
This will pass by next year...

If I went from a 30 to 522, will that discredit my improvement just because they are comfortable interpreting old scores?
 
If I went from a 30 to 522, will that discredit my improvement just because they are comfortable interpreting old scores?

You realize that nobody here can answer this for you, right? Adcoms on here could only tell you how they would look at it and that doesn't mean that another adcom won't look at it differently.
 
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Since that table was compiled from the 2015-16 application cycle, the vast majority of people who only had new MCAT scores were applying directly from college. On the contrary, many, if not most, of the applicants with the old MCAT scores had taken some time off after graduation (or took the MCAT super early - it's not clear what the split is among these two groups). Applicants who take time off college to strengthen their application can generally be more competitive than their "straight-through" peers, because of strong activities and/or an extra year of grades + honors, etc.

If true, you would expect there to be a shift in the ages of applicants/matriculants from previous cycles to the current cycle. Since people submitting a "new" MCAT score this cycle are about 52% of applicants, that should be large enough a proportion to see an effect on the bulk data. Luckily, the AAMC gives us the data to answer just this question here:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321468/data/factstablea6.pdf

And, as you can see, there is no change.
 
If true, you would expect there to be a shift in the ages of applicants from cycle to cycle. Luckily, the AAMC gives us the data to answer just this question here:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321468/data/factstablea6.pdf

And, as you can see, there is no change.

You have the right idea, but the data isn't quite there. The table show that on the aggregate, the average age of applicants has not changed. But it doesn't need to change for my argument to work. You would need data showing the breakdown of how many straight out of college applicants are admitted and how many have taken more time off. This is because whether you take the new MCAT or not is linked to one crucial factor - when you're applying. At least in the cycle that that table is based off of. In other words, the only case where you would take the new MCAT now instead of later is that you're applying that cycle. Therefore, the vast majority of people who took the new MCAT and applied with it were students who applied straight out of college. There were some who retook the MCAT but this is a minority. If applicants who had taken more time off were more competitive to begin with, then they always were admitted at a higher rate. The aggregate doesn't show this kind of data. And since, for that cycle, they are the ones who predominantly have only old MCATs, applicants with old MCATs would be admitted at a greater rate. They weren't admitted because of the old MCAT but rather because people who took time off and people who took the old MCAT and applied with it are inextricably linked.

To put it more concretely, an example is always helpful. Imagine 20 people applying to med school. 10 are applying straight out of college (average age 22) and 10 are applying after taking one or more years off (let's say average age 26). This gives an aggregate average age of 24. Now, let's say that because of the time off, the latter 10 are more competitive. So 6/10 are admitted, whereas only 3/10 are admitted of the first group. Therefore, the second cohort is more competitive than the first group and boasts a 60% acceptance rate over the 30% of the first cohort. Overall, your table would show that the average age of applicant is 24.

Okay, so now we're in the 2015 application cycle. As I said, the only people who are applying with the new MCAT are in the first cohort (very small minority of people from second cohort). Again, same exercise. 20 people, with 10 being 22 years old and 10 being 26 years old. Average age is still 24. Acceptance rates are still the same because there's no reason to believe that anything has changed. 6/10 for the second cohort and 3/10 for the first one. Now remember - the second cohort mainly has old MCAT only and the new cohort mainly has new MCAT. Put another way, the applicants applying with only new MCAT has an acceptance rate 1/2 that of the applicants who are applying with only old MCAT! Oh, no! Bring the old MCAT back!

So you can easily tell from this exercise that the new MCAT did nothing but bring out this subtle division in the applicant pool that aggregate data on age cannot.
 
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You have the right idea, but the data isn't quite there. The table show that on the aggregate, the average age of applicants has not changed. But it doesn't need to change for my argument to work. You would need data showing the breakdown of how many straight out of college applicants are admitted and how many have taken more time off. This is because whether you take the new MCAT or not is linked to one crucial factor - when you're applying. At least in the cycle that that table is based off of. In other words, the only case where you would take the new MCAT now instead of later is that you're applying that cycle. Therefore, the vast majority of people who took the new MCAT and applied with it were students who applied straight out of college. There were some who retook the MCAT but this is a minority. If applicants who had taken more time off were more competitive to begin with, then they always were admitted at a higher rate. The aggregate doesn't show this kind of data. And since, for that cycle, they are the ones who predominantly have only old MCATs, applicants with old MCATs would be admitted at a greater rate. They weren't admitted because of the old MCAT but rather because people who took time off and people who took the old MCAT and applied with it are inextricably linked.

I understand what you mean better now, thanks for clarifying.

However, wouldn't you be saying implicitly that taking a gap year is a better predictor of application success than mcat score? Whether or not a person took a gap year, you expect the success of their application to be more comparable to others with similar stats, not simply others who have taken a similar amount of time off. I think efle's original conclusion is a better explanation and we can see from the data already provided that more people with the new mcat score were applying with non competitive scores than people in the previous cycle.

That being said, it's an interesting perspective and I wish we had the data to see if it is true
 
However, wouldn't you be saying implicitly that taking a gap year is a better predictor of application success than mcat score? Whether or not a person took a gap year, you expect the success of their application to be more comparable to others with similar stats, not simply others who have taken a similar amount of time off. I think efle's original conclusion is a better explanation.

I went through the time to draw out a whole scenario in the edit above but it turns out it wasn't even needed :(

Anyway, your application isn't compared head-to-head with anybody else's. It's viewed in its own light and the question asked is whether or not you would be a successful medical student here and if you can become a competent doctor. So your whole application will be looked at and the more information you have about yourself, the better. I'm not saying that quantity beats quality - I'm saying that time can give most people more depth and depth is something that is lacking in many pre-meds who don't make it into medical school. This is why most people will advise one to apply when your application is at its strongest. Some people may not need extra time because they are already very very strong. But for many of those who don't get in, their applications were not at their strongest when they applied.
 
I went through the time to draw out a whole scenario in the edit above but it turns out it wasn't even needed :(

Anyway, your application isn't compared head-to-head with anybody else's. It's viewed in its own light and the question asked is whether or not you would be a successful medical student here and if you can become a competent doctor. So your whole application will be looked at and the more information you have about yourself, the better. I'm not saying that quantity beats quality - I'm saying that time can give most people more depth and depth is something that is lacking in many pre-meds who don't make it into medical school. This is why most people will advise one to apply when your application is at its strongest. Some people may not need extra time because they are already very very strong. But for many of those who don't get in, their applications were not at their strongest when they applied.

Certainly that is true, and that people who take gap years do better on average because of it is highly plausible. What I meant to say is that for explaining this particular effect I feel it is insufficient
 
Certainly that is true, and that people who take gap years do better on average because of it is highly plausible. What I meant to say is that for explaining this particular effect I feel it is insufficient

I understand your point. But to the contrary, I don't think this is a small effect - I think it's a pervasive effect we've all known about but have never seen quantified, namely that taking year(s) off to strengthen one's application may pay dividends. One good way to go about ascertaining this is to wait for the second cycle's statistics. So at the end of this cycle when the AAMC releases stats, does that discrepancy go down? In this second cycle, more of those who took the new MCAT will be applicants who took one year off. So if they truly are competitive, then they should boost the admission rate of the cohort applying with only new MCAT.
 
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