Stats Question For Medical School

[blueonion28]

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[wysdoc]

Hello everyone,

I am currently getting ready to apply to medical school for the 2023-2024 cycle. Here are my stats:

cGPA: 3.95
sGPA: 3.94
MCATs (in order): 516 (130, 128, 130, 128) and 519 (132, 126, 132, 129)

For some more context, I am an ORM, have 2500+ hours of research (2 posters and one upcoming pub), 150 hours of clinical volunteering, 400 hours of community service, and several leadership positions at my university. I am also very committed to being a musician (violinist) in my free time and have several activities dedicated to that.

I am shooting for T20 schools (along with schools in Texas since I am a TX resident) and I am worried that my MCATs may be holding me back (especially because I retook the MCAT). I retook because I wanted to have a more competitive score for the T20 schools but I scored lower than my FLs (521 average).

Right now, I am just doing my best to shape my narrative/writing so that it is as strong as possible.

Will I still have a shot at schools with 520+ MCAT medians? My dream school is Duke (520 median MCAT).

Please don't even think about retaking the MCAT again!
516 is the 92nd %tile and 519 96th %tile.
Another retake will be seen as obsessively perfectionistic.
You can apply to any school with your stats but choose the OOS schools that fit your goals and that accept some Texans.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Admissions does not rely on stats alone. If you fail to demonstrate mission fit, your great stats are not going to get you as far as you think.

A lot of schools average MCAT scores on screening. You are lucky you didn't undermine your chances but a 3 point rise is typical of test-retakers and won't significantly add value to your application. So you're up to a 517.5 ...

All I can say is that you should not be summarily denied, but you need to nail your fit, especially if you are a Texas resident.

How's your Casper or PREview score?

 

[blueonion28]

Please don't even think about retaking the MCAT again!
516 is the 92nd %tile and 519 96th %tile.
Another retake will be seen as obsessively perfectionistic.
You can apply to any school with your stats but choose the OOS schools that fit your goals and that accept some Texans.

Oh don't worry I will never consider retaking the MCAT haha. I just wanted to make sure that I am okay to shoot my shot at the T20 schools, which from your reply sounds like I can. Thank you for the advice!

 

[blueonion28]

Admissions does not rely on stats alone. If you fail to demonstrate mission fit, your great stats are not going to get you as far as you think.

A lot of schools average MCAT scores on screening. You are lucky you didn't undermine your chances but a 3 point rise is typical of test-retakers and won't significantly add value to your application. So you're up to a 517.5 ...

All I can say is that you should not be summarily denied, but you need to nail your fit, especially if you are a Texas resident.

How's your Casper or PREview score?

I plan to apply to the T20 schools that are OOS friendly (so no UW) and that are research-focused (which are most of them) since I am heavy on research.

Is the average score what they use for consideration or just for whether they look at your application? I know that Stanford and NYU both consider the average MCAT score (which I am not sure if that's 517.5 or 518 for me), schools like Vanderbilt superscore (which would put me at a 521), and some take the highest score (519) for me. But does that mean that those schools use these methods of evaluation only when you get past their internal screening?

Because I am applying this cycle, I have not yet taken Casper nor PREview. However, I plan to take PREview soon and will take Casper as soon as it's available for the 2023-2024 cycle.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Is the average score what they use for consideration or just for whether they look at your application? I know that Stanford and NYU both consider the average MCAT score (which I am not sure if that's 517.5 or 518 for me), schools like Vanderbilt superscore (which would put me at a 521), and some take the highest score (519) for me. But does that mean that those schools use these methods of evaluation only when you get past their internal screening?

We like decimal points as much as any premed, so assume 517.50 for those that average. These are for the purposes of initial screening, but I can't say if any committee will revert to most-recent, highest, superscore, or average once your application hits a decision for interview or offer.

And you don't want to apply MSTP because...??? That could be the easier path to get you OOS (relatively speaking) since MSTP recipients all ultimately get full support.

Oh, and if you want to apply to Duke, you better set aside enough time for their secondary prompts which usually change for each cycle. I am very familiar with how they like to query applicants including in their MMI's (if they still do that), though I've never worked with them in creating their prompts.

 

[blueonion28]

We like decimal points as much as any premed, so assume 517.50 for those that average. These are for the purposes of initial screening, but I can't say if any committee will revert to most-recent, highest, superscore, or average once your application hits a decision for interview or offer.

And you don't want to apply MSTP because...??? That could be the easier path to get you OOS (relatively speaking) since MSTP recipients all ultimately get full support

I am not absolutely sure that I want to spend another four years pursuing a Ph.D. In addition, I feel that I am not competitive enough for the limited number of spots in those programs to begin with (mostly due to my MCAT and lack of accepted pubs).

I am confident in my extracurriculars and am working hard to make my writing as good as it can get, but my MCAT score is really lowering my overall confidence in my chances for the OOS schools I am applying to.

For Duke, I plan to set as much time as possible for the large secondary (I heard it's around eight essays). I am also reading a book on MMI strategies (Duke still holds MMI-format interviews). Any advice for Duke would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I am not absolutely sure that I want to spend another four years pursuing a Ph.D. In addition, I feel that I am not competitive enough for the limited number of spots in those programs to begin with (mostly due to my MCAT and lack of accepted pubs).

I am confident in my extracurriculars and am working hard to make my writing as good as it can get, but my MCAT score is really lowering my overall confidence in my chances for the OOS schools I am applying to.

For Duke, I plan to set as much time as possible for the large secondary (I heard it's around eight essays). I am also reading a book on MMI strategies (Duke still holds MMI-format interviews). Any advice for Duke would be greatly appreciated!

You don't need publications but you do need a strong desire to do research. You may be surprised if you asked WAMC in the Research Scientists (MSTP) forum here. Your 516 actually makes you desirable.

I'm just saying if you are really trying to go OOS, that's your best route. If not, stay TMDSAS and try to get into the research-oriented in-state schools.

My interview expertise is used for my SJT workshops, which would include online MMI preparation. I think Duke would still do online MMI's, right? The workshops are only available to Becoming a Student Doctor enrollees. Given how much they really expect applicants to be well-versed in the challenges facing healthcare, you may be served to enroll since many of these topics are covered in the course.

 

[blueonion28]

You don't need publications but you do need a strong desire to do research. You may be surprised if you asked WAMC in the Research Scientists (MSTP) forum here. Your 516 actually makes you desirable.

I'm just saying if you are really trying to go OOS, that's your best route. If not, stay TMDSAS and try to get into the research-oriented in-state schools.

My interview expertise is used for my SJT workshops, which would include online MMI preparation. I think Duke would still do online MMI's, right? The workshops are only available to Becoming a Student Doctor enrollees. Given how much they really expect applicants to be well-versed in the challenges facing healthcare, you may be served to enroll since many of these topics are covered in the course.

I will be applying to research-oriented in-state schools. In regards to MSTP, I am not so research-oriented that I would want to prioritize it much more heavily than working in a clinical setting. I feel much more comfortable applying to MD programs with a research-focused mission fit, even if my MCAT is slightly lower than the median for them. Also, even if the MSTP program gives a better chance for admission, I prefer a 4-year MD program over an 8-year MD/PhD since I am unsure about the PhD component.

In regards to applying OOS, are you saying that my chances are low for those MD programs due to my MCAT?

 

[KatsuCurry]

Hello everyone,

I am currently getting ready to apply to medical school for the 2023-2024 cycle. Here are my stats:

cGPA: 3.95
sGPA: 3.94
MCATs (in order): 516 (130, 128, 130, 128) and 519 (132, 126, 132, 129)

For some more context, I am an ORM, have 2500+ hours of research (2 posters and one upcoming pub), 150 hours of clinical volunteering, 400 hours of community service, and several leadership positions at my university. I am also very committed to being a musician (violinist) in my free time and have several activities dedicated to that.

I am shooting for T20 schools (along with schools in Texas since I am a TX resident) and I am worried that my MCATs may be holding me back (especially because I retook the MCAT). I retook because I wanted to have a more competitive score for the T20 schools but I scored lower than my FLs (521 average).

Right now, I am just doing my best to shape my narrative/writing so that it is as strong as possible.

Will I still have a shot at schools with 520+ MCAT medians? My dream school is Duke (520 median MCAT).

You sound like a very ambitious and motivated person, which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of and has clearly helped you in your path so far. But I would suggest really thinking about what your goals in medicine are. I'm only asking this because you retook a 516 and mentioned a strong desire to go to a T20 school.

It is easy to become burned out in the admissions cycle and even more so in the 4+ years of medical school if you are overly perfectionistic and focused on narrow rather than broad goals. It is fine to shoot your shot at T20 schools but I promise that no door in medicine will close for you if you go to a T50 school rather than Duke or Harvard. Shooting for a single school is also probably not the most advisable, since any given school probably has a <5% (some even <2%) acceptance rates. You will still be able to match into any specialty, pursue research, become a department chairman, etc. going to a "mid-tier" school.

To answer your question, a 517.5 MCAT over 2 takes with a strong GPA, a strong narrative, and strong LORs will probably get you some looks by T20s, but it's lower than ideal. I had a similar app to you (3.8/518 ORM) and I got 3 T20 interviews. This number was probably on the slightly higher end amongst my friends applying in the same cycle with a similar score. Most people I know who got more T20 interviews than I did scored 521+.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

In regards to applying OOS, are you saying that my chances are low for those MD programs due to my MCAT?

Being a Texas resident, most OOS schools know from experience that strong Texas residents would stay in state for cost differences alone. You have to argue and demonstrate specific mission fit and do your homework.

Read

Building Your Best School List - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[blueonion28]

You sound like a very ambitious and motivated person, which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of and has clearly helped you in your path so far. But I would suggest really thinking about what your goals in medicine are. I'm only asking this because you retook a 516 and mentioned a strong desire to go to a T20 school.

It is easy to become burned out in the admissions cycle and even more so in the 4+ years of medical school if you are overly perfectionistic and focused on narrow rather than broad goals. It is fine to shoot your shot at T20 schools but I promise that no door in medicine will close for you if you go to a T50 school rather than Duke or Harvard. Shooting for a single school is also probably not the most advisable, since any given school probably has a <5% (some even <2%) acceptance rates. You will still be able to match into any specialty, pursue research, become a department chairman, etc. going to a "mid-tier" school.

To answer your question, a 517.5 MCAT over 2 takes with a strong GPA, a strong narrative, and strong LORs will probably get you some looks by T20s, but it's lower than ideal. I had a similar app to you (3.8/518 ORM) and I got 3 T20 interviews. This number was probably on the slightly higher end amongst my friends applying in the same cycle with a similar score. Most people I know who got more T20 interviews than I did scored 521+.

I am shooting my shot at these schools because their mission fits match my interest in research. This does not mean that I am applying just for the sake of going to a top school. I will be happy with getting into any medical school that I apply to

In terms of the MCAT, don't most schools evaluate based on the highest or most recent MCAT? Internal screening aside, on MSAR I didn't see many schools use the average of the MCAT scores. Regardless, I will just apply and see what happens cause I'm already applying broadly. Thank you for the advice though I genuinely appreciate it.

 

[blueonion28]

Being a Texas resident, most OOS schools know from experience that strong Texas residents would stay in state for cost differences alone. You have to argue and demonstrate specific mission fit and do your homework.

Read

Building Your Best School List - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

Ok sounds good, I will definitely make sure to put my best foot forward for every school, in-state and OOS

 

[Goro]

Oh don't worry I will never consider retaking the MCAT haha. I just wanted to make sure that I am okay to shoot my shot at the T20 schools, which from your reply sounds like I can. Thank you for the advice!

Yes, you are competitive for those schools

 

[chilly_md]

I am not absolutely sure that I want to spend another four years pursuing a Ph.D. In addition, I feel that I am not competitive enough for the limited number of spots in those programs to begin with (mostly due to my MCAT and lack of accepted pubs).

I am confident in my extracurriculars and am working hard to make my writing as good as it can get, but my MCAT score is really lowering my overall confidence in my chances for the OOS schools I am applying to.

Your MCAT is fine, I am more concerned about your lower clinical experience. You have hit the minimum hour count and hopefully your community service shows you have significant experience interacting with those less fortunate.

I suggest:
Vanderbilt
Duke
WUSTL
Emory
UVA
Mayo
NYU
Cleveland Clinic

I recommend keeping your OOS school list to 10 or less that you would seriously consider over UTSW and Baylor.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Internal screening aside, on MSAR I didn't see many schools use the average of the MCAT scores.

Give us credit, our job is to entice you to apply to our school (so you say I have a chance?). Some recruiters know how to encourage you to get them a cup.of coffee to get your app looked at. (At some of these recruitment events, that's a nice way to get attention. )

You probably know how some colleges treat SAT or ACT scores but only after counselors pushed the issue... no one has put that pressure on graduate admissions.

There are 50 schools I consider are T20, and mny schools have very strong departments that I pay attention to. If you aren't gunning for NIH funding, then find schools' research day sites to gauge what students do. More importantly, pick schools doing research with communities you really want to work with.

Get your service hours up. Prepare for Casper and PREVIEW.

PS. I agree with my colleague to look at CCLCM very closely.